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Omegakai
12-09-2007, 22:34
I would like to clarify the following.
One of the giants attacks on large things (bigger then man sized objects) is "thump" with a club.
This requires the model to take and initiative test or suffer 2d6 wounds.
It states that if their is multi able values you take the lowest.
almost every chariot has a value of *dash* - in its initiative section
It states in the rule book that a dash is also a 0, on the same page of the rule book it states that values of 0 mean you automatically fail when taking any form of tests.

my interpretation is that when rolling this against a chariot it auto fails the test and takes 2d6 wounds.

can anyone provide me with reasonable rebuttal? or some sort of errata?


thanks
(id love to hear T10 take on this, or even fetus)

Atrahasis
12-09-2007, 22:44
I can't fault your logic, even if I'm not T10 or an unborn child.

DaBrode
12-09-2007, 23:01
Sounds good to me.

However, for the sake of my opponents sanity :) I may still go with the typically correct theory that "a 1 is always a failure" and make the roll anyway.

theunwantedbeing
12-09-2007, 23:03
Only initiutive values of a 0 are an automatic failure,the chariot part of the model has no initiutive value,not even a value of 0.
So it cannot auto fail unless another part of it also has an initiutive of 0.

Interestingly the beasts of chaos giant seems to be devoid of the (choose the lowest available initiutive) bit.

Omegakai
12-09-2007, 23:08
Only initiutive values of a 0 are an automatic failure,the chariot part of the model has no initiutive value,not even a value of 0.
So it cannot auto fail unless another part of it also has an initiutive of 0.

Interestingly the beasts of chaos giant seems to be devoid of the (choose the lowest available initiutive) bit.

Its the new O&G book.
This is my logic.
The chariot has a dash in its stat line
The rule book clearly states that a dash is the same as a 0.
0 is a value.
a value of 0 automatically fails a test.
Thus you fail. and take 2d6 wounds.

theunwantedbeing
12-09-2007, 23:24
Oh yeah...seems I missed that line.
Chariot auto-fails and takes 2d6 wounds.
So its dead basically.

DaBrode
12-09-2007, 23:31
Oh yeah...seems I missed that line.
Chariot auto-fails and takes 2d6 wounds.
So its dead basically.

Chariots have 3 wounds. It's not "dead basically" yet! Snake eyes baby!

Omegakai
12-09-2007, 23:49
i once killed a GUO. rolling 2 6's for wounds. (he saved 1)

theunwantedbeing
12-09-2007, 23:50
Dead basically means "in all likelihood its dead"
You have a 1/36 chance of not losing that chariot.
The average chariot has 4 wounds,so has a 1/12 chance of not dying.

So yes it is "dead basically".

Urgat
12-09-2007, 23:59
Yeah... tonight I played with an ogre giant. He gets the same attack, but instead of an initiative test, he gets an endurance test. Is it me or the larger the target, the higher the endurance (while it usually keeps rather low with initiative), and, therefore, the more stupid it is to have such an attack against large targets? I mean, the thump rule is perfect against ogres, cool, you can wound them rather easily (makes sense, no? it's a ******* giant). Now with the endurance roll, it's 5+ to pass on an ogre. How silly is that? Tonight my giant got totally owned by the chaos ogre unit it charged because I failed to notice this "little" rule change between the O&G and the ogres giants...
What the hell did they smoke?

Omegakai
13-09-2007, 00:07
differnt giants.
they are broken, and cost less.
suck it up.
ok is underpowered we all know it.

theunwantedbeing
13-09-2007, 00:16
How many wounds does it say the model takes if it fails its toughness test vs a slavegiant in the flail with chain attack?
My ogre kingdoms copy seems to have been smudged over that bit......*sigh*

Urgat
13-09-2007, 00:28
Same thing, it's just way harder for the OK giant to get it than the O&G one.
Guess my maneaters will take back their place as rare.

Omegakai
13-09-2007, 00:29
How many wounds does it say the model takes if it fails its toughness test vs a slavegiant in the flail with chain attack?
My ogre kingdoms copy seems to have been smudged over that bit......*sigh*
go by the real version instead of using pdfs :D

theunwantedbeing
13-09-2007, 00:42
Anyone going to be helpful?
Seeing as its had a drink spilled on it as I got hold of it second hand.

Omegakai
13-09-2007, 00:48
Anyone going to be helpful?
Seeing as its had a drink spilled on it as I got hold of it second hand.

scroll up a bit :D

Urgat
13-09-2007, 00:58
As I said, same deal: 2D6 wounds w/o save.

theunwantedbeing
13-09-2007, 01:07
Ah,I see.....got a bit confused with where you said 5+ to pass on an ogre on the endurace roll...seeing as my book doesnt say that.

Seems much fairer than the current thump with club that you get for a normal giant.Seeing as the big things you tend to hit usually have a low initiutive and generally die when thumped.

Something which isnt a lot of fun to happen when your creature that just got beaten to death often cost more points than the giant did.....

Palatine Katinka
13-09-2007, 01:35
Its the new O&G book.
This is my logic.
The chariot has a dash in its stat line
The rule book clearly states that a dash is the same as a 0.
0 is a value.
a value of 0 automatically fails a test.
Thus you fail. and take 2d6 wounds.

The rulebook also says "...some characteristics are not included in the profile as they are never used." when refering to the separate characteristics of a chariot's components. Its the 'never used' part that seems important to me. The chariot has initiative '-' because it is never used and thus can't be used for that test and it doesn't auto fail. Or maybe I'm just being lenient to chariot users.

Omegakai
13-09-2007, 02:56
The rulebook also says "...some characteristics are not included in the profile as they are never used." when refering to the separate characteristics of a chariot's components. Its the 'never used' part that seems important to me. The chariot has initiative '-' because it is never used and thus can't be used for that test and it doesn't auto fail. Or maybe I'm just being lenient to chariot users.

thats a good point. how ever i feel the - = 0 and the 0 = fail in my mind over rides that.

in all games i field giants. i talk about it before hand with the person I'm playing.
allowing them to make up their mind as to what they think is best.
99% of people i play agree with the term i use as 0 = auto fail.

I tend to play open list. and talk about such rules before hand so as not to create a moment of rude awakening for my opponent.

Milgram
13-09-2007, 07:18
Same thing, it's just way harder for the OK giant to get it than the O&G one.
Guess my maneaters will take back their place as rare.

uhm, giants suck against large target units like ogres, trolls, khemri chariot squads etc. learn to use a giant or leave it.

besides I would go as well for the autohits. I think there are some spells that autohit chariots because they don't have initiative.

Urgat
13-09-2007, 10:11
uhm, giants suck against large target units like ogres, trolls, khemri chariot squads etc. learn to use a giant or leave it.


Yes O' master. You know what? You're wrong on the first part, you can keep your comments about the second and, anyway, whatever.


The rulebook also says "...some characteristics are not included in the profile as they are never used." when refering to the separate characteristics of a chariot's components. Its the 'never used' part that seems important to me. The chariot has initiative '-' because it is never used and thus can't be used for that test and it doesn't auto fail. Or maybe I'm just being lenient to chariot users.

So that would mean thump can never hit a charriot - doesn't seem very fair to the giant's side now. Anyway, aren't we supposed to use the higher stat when fighting a charriot? You know, like, in close combat, you use the WS of the wolves when attacking a goblin charriot, so shouldn't the highest I of the crew/beasts be used?

theunwantedbeing
13-09-2007, 11:35
The rules for the giant state the lowest initiutive available(check the GW site for the giant pdf).
This is of course missing from chaos giants so it doesnt apply and you get to use the highest.

Assuming the chariots initiutive was never used it wouldnt mean that the cahriot could not be hit by a thump with club attack,seeing as the crew and steeds all have an initiutive,it would merely mean you use the lowest of those available.

The initiutive is indeed never used,even in the case of the thump with club.
'-'= 0
0 = auto fail
SO you dont take the test,you just fail it immediately.

Giants dont work so well vs ogres simply because thump with club will only hurt 1 of the 3+ things he is most likely fighting,and the other 2 are highly likely to have enough attacks to wound him a couple of times(or more).
Eadbutt only does a single wound,which means he's only drawing vs the ogre sized things.
Only yell and bawl gives any real shot at victory.

Urgat
13-09-2007, 12:32
Giants dont work so well vs ogres simply because thump with club will only hurt 1 of the 3+ things he is most likely fighting,and the other 2 are highly likely to have enough attacks to wound him a couple of times(or more).
Eadbutt only does a single wound,which means he's only drawing vs the ogre sized things.
Only yell and bawl gives any real shot at victory.

My answer was of course based on the fact that the "comment" was merely an attempt at being smart, considering the dude knows nothing of the actual combat, what I did, who was involved, etc. I rarely use my giant on his own, yesterday, he was fighting alongside a unit of 2 leadbelchers (they all charged). Yell and headbutt both give a pretty interesting edge when you combine the giant with, well, about anything else, and thump is, well, a nice chance of completly crushing the unit on the first turn. When you get entanglement (or whatever name it is in english), you actually end up with a high chance of your giant being useless in the fight, making it way more likely for you to lose combat (hitting a giant is not hard, and neither is wounding it, if you use entanglement, well, that means that your most likely fighting something with a big strenght), fall, etc. Not nearly as easy for it to happen with an O&G giant. I have no problem with the slave giant losing stubborn, being downgraded in ways, and being cheaper as a result. I do mind a useless attack that may turn your giant into a useless piece of victory points.

theunwantedbeing
13-09-2007, 12:55
Failing to wound at all in combat is often something my troops have to deal with,as is being unable to save any successful wounds caused to them with their fragile armour.

All things have something they dont fare well against,for the slavegiant its big things with a decent toughness.

You still get the frankly broken yell and bawl,jump up and down,eadbutt and the pick up and....rolls which allow you to make a mockery of whatever it is you happen to be facing,for a very low cost for such killing potential.

DeathlessDraich
13-09-2007, 17:39
(id love to hear T10 take on this, or even fetus)

"Fetus" has not been born yet but mother is doing well! :D
Great joke! I want to hear more please.


The rulebook also says "...some characteristics are not included in the profile as they are never used."

A rule which cannot be ignored.

I can't see why the chariot would automatically fail an Initiative test. It is a *single model* with multiple components and not simply an inert piece of metal.

1) Except for the 2 case mentioned below**, the Initiative of the crew or the steeds should be used when the Giant Thumps with club. For Orcs - it will be the crew but for Elves it will be the steeds.

2) The character's Initiative cannot be used under any circumstance for Thump with Club as it is the 'big thing' (or big Mount) which is being specifically attacked.

3) Although the crew are 'little', the chariot is *one* model and the Giant's rules do state that the " use the lowest [Initiative] if *the model* has several different values."

4)** In the case of the War Altar or Tomb King Chariot, there is no crew unfortunately but the Steeds have an Initiative and that has to be used.

Atrahasis
13-09-2007, 17:48
A rule which cannot be ignored.A rule which can absolutely be ignored, as it is irrelevant. It applies only when a model lacks a characteristic - the chariot does not lack an initiative characteristic, it has an initiative of 0.

Palatine Katinka
13-09-2007, 20:17
A rule which can absolutely be ignored, as it is irrelevant. It applies only when a model lacks a characteristic - the chariot does not lack an initiative characteristic, it has an initiative of 0.

In which case that rule can be removed because there is no characteristic that is not included, they're just all zero. :eyebrows: Including the wounds and toughness of the steeds and crew, so they're dead. :angel:

feeder
14-09-2007, 01:05
Sorry, you do not autohit chariots. "-" does not equal "0".

Atrahasis
14-09-2007, 01:38
In which case that rule can be removed because there is no characteristic that is not included, they're just all zero. :eyebrows: Including the wounds and toughness of the steeds and crew, so they're dead. :angel:The armour saves of the individual steeds and crew are not included, and "saves" are a characteristic as defined on page 5. Models die if their wounds are reduced to 0, not if they are equal to zero from the outset :)


Sorry, you do not autohit chariots. "-" does not equal "0".The rulebook disagrees with you.

DaBrode
14-09-2007, 02:10
"-" does not equal "0".


"Hello, I'm going to make completely unfounded comments which will be ignored by those that actually read the rulebook."

:p

WLBjork
14-09-2007, 05:14
In which case that rule can be removed because there is no characteristic that is not included, they're just all zero. :eyebrows: Including the wounds and toughness of the steeds and crew, so they're dead. :angel:

Already covered in the rules :p


A chariot has a pool of Wounds, which represent the chariot itself, it's crew and the creatures pulling it.

DeathlessDraich
14-09-2007, 10:59
A rule which can absolutely be ignored, as it is irrelevant. .

1) Your statement above acknowledges that it is a *rule*.
2) Of course you're at liberty to ignore any rule you want.
3) Fortunately ignoring it does not make of a difference to the original question

I found that very sentiment in the sensational headlines of the Sun - "Atrahasis decides which rules to ignore". :p.
On the next page - "Claire short and Ann Widdecombe declares undying support for Atrahasis' campaign" , followed by a pg 3 picture of topless Ann Widdecombe requiring 'support'. :p


It applies only when a model lacks a characteristic - the chariot does not lack an initiative characteristic, it has an initiative of 0.
The chariot's mechanical/metallic bits have "-" Initiative but *not* the chariot model.

The Giant's Thump with club refers to the "lowest Initiative if the *model* has many components"

The chariot model as you already know has many component parts and its stats clearly indicate that steeds and crew have an Initiative. Therefore the lower of their Initiatives should be used.

Atrahasis
14-09-2007, 12:27
I acknowledge that "Flyers never need to turn or wheel" is a rule as well, but I ignore it when moving chariots (except Tzeentcvh Daemonic chariots).

The chariot model has several components, and each has an Initiative value, and the Giant rules tell us to use the lowest.

I'm not ignoring any relevant rules, but you are :)

T10
14-09-2007, 14:55
I would like to clarify the following.
One of the giants attacks on large things (bigger then man sized objects) is "thump" with a club.
This requires the model to take and initiative test or suffer 2d6 wounds.
It states that if their is multi able values you take the lowest.
almost every chariot has a value of *dash* - in its initiative section
It states in the rule book that a dash is also a 0, on the same page of the rule book it states that values of 0 mean you automatically fail when taking any form of tests.

my interpretation is that when rolling this against a chariot it auto fails the test and takes 2d6 wounds.

can anyone provide me with reasonable rebuttal? or some sort of errata?


thanks
(id love to hear T10 take on this, or even fetus)

Wow, a personal request!

Your logic has only one flaw. While it is true that a "-" value is to be read as "0", the Chariot rules specify that those values that are not specified are never used.

p.62: "... some characteristics are not included in the profile as they are never used."

(Since it does not specify which excluded characteristics are never used, it is reasonable to assume that this means all excluded characteristic and not some.)

So while it would be appropriate to read the Chariot's initiative of "-" as "0", the point is moot as that value will never come into play. The chariot must test against the lowest initiative it can use. In the case of a Goblin Wolf Chariot, that value would be the Crew's initiative of 2.

-T10

Omegakai
14-09-2007, 19:45
Ok, that seems more logical . thanks T10.
_b

Atrahasis
14-09-2007, 21:29
(Since it does not specify which excluded characteristics are never used, it is reasonable to assume that this means all excluded characteristic and not some.) "-" is NOT an excluded characteristic. It is 0.

Festus
14-09-2007, 22:10
Hi

I think I'll throw my hat into the ring as well. I am with T10 on this one. It says that a "-" is a "0" for all intents (BRB, p.5), but the rules tell us in the same sentence that this characteristic (0 or -) is never used (BRB, ibid.).

So it is never used, not even for Giant's purposes.

The fact that this is written again in the chariot's rules reinforce the matter in my not so humble opinion, actually.

It is 0, but it is never used, thus even never used as the lowest available. It simply is never used.

FEstus

T10
14-09-2007, 22:17
"-" is NOT an excluded characteristic. It is 0.

Ha. Ha. Ha.

-T10

Braad
14-09-2007, 23:08
Godlike!

When I was reading, I was in favour of those who stated it was an auto-hit. I wanted to add, can you imagine an entire chariot jumping out of the way just because the crew would do so if they saw this massive club coming down?

Now I've read these last few posts...

But if it's the rules, we stick to the rules. And if Festus says so, it's bound to be true.

Urgat
14-09-2007, 23:56
Same as Braad in fact, but my friends and I always used the lowest I on the profile up till now (and, obviously, will keep on with that) because we never even wondered about it...

feeder
15-09-2007, 07:06
Nice of T10 and Festus to explain it very carefully for everybody who was still in the dark.

WLBjork
15-09-2007, 09:21
Problem: Some stats are excluded, and some are 0. Both are represented by -.

The trouble is it's difficult to ascertain which stats are excluded, and which are 0.

Let's start with the crew: M is excluded, T is excluded, W is excluded.

Creatures pulling chariot: BS is 0, T is excluded, W is excluded, Ld is excluded.

Chariot: M is excluded, WS is 0, I is ?, A is 0, LD is 0.

I would side with Atrahasis that in this case, the I is 0, and the Chariot is hit automatically.

Urgat
15-09-2007, 09:27
The 0 in a profile are "-" for a reason I believe, you can just turn them into 0 when you don't have any other choice (and, for charriots, you usually do).
Well, case closed for me at least.

T10
15-09-2007, 12:43
Problem: Some stats are excluded, and some are 0. Both are represented by -.


I don't quite see how you can read two "-" values to mean two different things.

-T10

T10
15-09-2007, 13:10
The rulebook also says "...some characteristics are not included in the profile as they are never used." when refering to the separate characteristics of a chariot's components. Its the 'never used' part that seems important to me. The chariot has initiative '-' because it is never used and thus can't be used for that test and it doesn't auto fail. Or maybe I'm just being lenient to chariot users.

Having bothered to actually read the thread, I see "my" point has already been brought up. Kudos to PK! :)

Wether the chariot itself actually has an Initiative of 0, or whatever, seems to be brought up as if it were a valid argument.

"Gentlemen! Surely, the chariot chassis is an inanimate object akin to a warmachine and can be assumed to, under normal circumstances, to be attributed an Inititative value of "-"! And I clearly see a "-" entered for the chariot's Intiative! Thus it's Initiative values, such as assumed, is clearly included in the profile!"

Bah. Even if I bought that argument, there is nothing to indicate that not all "-" entries are "not included" and thus not used.

-T10

Atrahasis
15-09-2007, 15:13
The rulebook explicitly tells us that values of '0' are sometimes shown as '-'

If - means 0 (and the rulebook tells us it does) then - is an included stat.

Urgat
15-09-2007, 15:45
I hope you're not going through the trouble of typing that sentence every time, copy/paste will be enough, you know.

non autohit side: "random things"
autohit side: yes but "-"="0"
non autohit side: "random things"
autohit side: yes, but "-"="0"
non autohit side: "random things"
autohit side: yes but "-"="0"

etc.. Don't you all feel kind of... silly?

feeder
15-09-2007, 16:55
The rulebook explicitly tells us that values of '0' are sometimes shown as '-'

Hello. Your reference (taken from pg 5 'characteristics of 0') is correct, however, further reading is required.

pg 62 'The Chariot model' The last paragragh explicitly states that the omitted stats (i.e., - ) are not included as they are never used.

It is a bit of a contradiciton, I know, (in WHFB? the horror!) but I think that the specific rule description for Chariots overrides the general rule for Characteristics.

Atrahasis
15-09-2007, 17:16
pg 62 'The Chariot model' The last paragragh explicitly states that the omitted stats (i.e., - ) are not included as they are never used.Where on that page does it say that '-' is an omitted stat? (Don't search too long, you won't find it.)

Festus
15-09-2007, 21:37
Hi

Don't talk about omitted, please!

It just is said that the characteristic is never used. What is so hard in understanding *it is never used*??? Well, it is NEVER - USED. Never. Period.

Festus

feeder
15-09-2007, 22:01
Where on that page does it say that '-' is an omitted stat? (Don't search too long, you won't find it.)

Are you serious? Do you really need a sentence in the rulebook explaining to you which "not included" stats are "never used" ?

WLBjork
16-09-2007, 00:31
No, what Atrahasis is saying is that the characteristic value of "-" has been defined as "0".

So characteristics that are excluded should be given a different value, e.g. "#" to differentiate them. Even if this wasn't formally defined in the chariots rules, it's a non-numerical value that is not "-", and thus is easily identifiable as being an excluded characteristic.

Alternatively of course, GW could actually do a bit of work and make sure when a unit has a characteristic valued at "0", it's written as "0" and not some non-numerical value.

theunwantedbeing
16-09-2007, 00:50
GW just needs to bring out an errata on it.

*laughs*

Seriously,they do.....

T10
16-09-2007, 01:19
Where on that page does it say that '-' is an omitted stat? (Don't search too long, you won't find it.)

Where on that page does it say that "-" is an included stat? (Don't search to bla bla bla.)

It says some stats are not included. This can't refer to any other than the "-" stats.

-T10

Atrahasis
16-09-2007, 02:43
It can refer to other characteristics. As I have already pointed out, "Saves" are a kind of characteristic and only one save is included.

Arguing that a characteristic that has a value included (even if that value is 0) is not included is laughable.

Palatine Katinka
16-09-2007, 04:29
But that save is not included in the profile. The save is mentioned separately from the profile (the bit that runs from M to Ld with numbers below the letters). Does this mean that a chariots save is never used?

Festus
16-09-2007, 08:14
Hi

Saves are not characteristics: Only the ones listed on p.4 of the BRB are characteristics: M, WS, BS, S, T, W, I, A, and Ld.

Festus

DeathlessDraich
16-09-2007, 11:33
I'm surprised this debate is still going on.
Another case of a rant which is "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".:p

The questions being debated already have clear answers in the rule books but I think many of the post writers above are guilty of not reading the other posts properly.

It is mainly centred on this quote below which is absolutely right.


The rulebook explicitly tells us that values of '0' are sometimes shown as '-'


pg 5 "...given a value of '0' (sometimes shown as a dash '-') ...which means they have absolutely no ability whatsoever".

Atrahasis' conclusion that '-' ='0' is absolutely supported by the rules.

I'm not simply supporting Atrahasis here because he has also been occasionally guilty of failing to understand the main gist of another's post and preferring to nit pick on unintended trivialities. :D


Where on that page does it say that "-" is an included stat? (Don't search to bla bla bla.)

It says some stats are not included. This can't refer to any other than the "-" stats.
-T10

The rule Palatine first highlighted is also correct but what does it mean exactly is open to interpretation and, if scrutinised quite closely, is actually redundant.
pg 62 "some characteristics are not included in the profile as they are never used".

3 ways (all correct) of interpreting this:

A) All characteristics (stats) with a '-' is never used - yours, Palatine and Festus
B) *Some* stats could be *some* '-' stats are never used - no one is advocating this
C) '-' is a '0' stat by definition. Therefore there *is* a stat where '-' is written. '0' does not mean an absence of a stat but the *value* of the stat is zero. i.e. a '-' which is a zero is a stat that has been included. - Atrahasis' view

*All* 3 interpretations are acceptable but *all* 3 have no bearing on the original question which I answered in post #26 and I'll summarise below. **



But that save is not included in the profile. The save is mentioned separately from the profile (the bit that runs from M to Ld with numbers below the letters). Does this mean that a chariots save is never used?

Hi

Saves are not characteristics: Only the ones listed on p.4 of the BRB are characteristics: M, WS, BS, S, T, W, I, A, and Ld.

Festus

Again guilty of misreading . This is what was actually said.


"Saves" are a kind of characteristic and only one save is included.


*kind of* a characteristic and not a characteristic.

**
1) The non living part of a chariot has (M) = 0 but the chariot *model* does not , its movement is given by the steeds (M)
2) The non living part of a chariot has (Ld) = 0 but the chariot *model* does not , its Ld is given by the crew.
3) The non living part of a chariot has (I) = 0 *and* the chariot *model* has an indefinable or maybe '0' Initiative. However this is never needed, unless you can find a situation where it is. The crew and steeds do have an Initiative value.
In the case of the Giants attack, the Giant's rule specifically allows usage of the crew or steeds (I).

pg 64 "strike blows as normal using *their own* WS, S and I" - this indicates that these characteristics are their own specifically and not for the chariot*model* as a whole.

Festus
16-09-2007, 11:41
Hi

... I think many of the post writers above are guilty of not reading the other posts properly...

I can easily play the ball back: You are guilty of misreading yourself, actually. This is what was said:

... and "saves" are a characteristic as defined on page 5...
Generally speaking, I pretty much know what I write - if not intoxicated by alcoholic beverages ;)

Festus

Omegakai
16-09-2007, 11:57
ok before i felt it was clear cut.
but the definition's of what "some characteristics" mean in the "some Characteristics are never used, i personally am happy to play lowest "listed" I. but an argument could be made for the other.
i guess its one of those "talk to your opponents before the game type things.

DeathlessDraich
16-09-2007, 12:20
Hi
I can easily play the ball back: You are guilty of misreading yourself, actually. This is what was said:

Generally speaking, I pretty much know what I write - if not intoxicated by alcoholic beverages ;)
Festus

Guden Morgan!
LOL! No need to be defensive. What makes you think you were being referred to? A Guilt complex possibly in the absence of Schnappes (or is that Schweppes)? :p.

Anyway, what I meant by 'proper' reading is the importance of gleaning the gist or main ideas as opposed to the trivialities and 'typos' which in the past you've been very willing to ignore e.g. ignoring an obvious mistake and using the 'corrected' version in your replies. Haven't seen much of that lately.

Maybe you should have commented on the rules I discussed in my previous reply.

Palatine Katinka
16-09-2007, 21:55
C) '-' is a '0' stat by definition. Therefore there *is* a stat where '-' is written. '0' does not mean an absence of a stat but the *value* of the stat is zero. i.e. a '-' which is a zero is a stat that has been included. - Atrahasis' view

According to my word processor a stat of zero or '0' (or, in accordance with the WFB rulebook, '-') does mean an absence of a stat.

zero
n (plural zeros or zeroes)
1. symbol 0: the numerical symbol 0, representing the absence of any quantity or magnitude

Encarta World English Dictionary & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


Again guilty of misreading . This is what was actually said.

I think you might have misread me, I was not questioning whether or not armour save is a characteristic. I was actually refering to the "only one save is included" part of the text. No save is included in the profile. The save is listed as a separate item from the characteristics on the profile.


3) The non living part of a chariot has (I) = 0 *and* the chariot *model* has an indefinable or maybe '0' Initiative. However this is never needed, unless you can find a situation where it is. The crew and steeds do have an Initiative value.
In the case of the Giants attack, the Giant's rule specifically allows usage of the crew or steeds (I).

But this topic is because the Giant rules say to use the lowest, which can be interpretted to be the '-'. Some of us say not so because the '-' is never used so take the next lowest. I'm not sure what your siding with as you say my reference to '-' not being used is irrelevant but then say you still use the rider or steeds initiative. :eyebrows:


What makes you think you were being referred to?

Maybe it was the fact that you quoted Festus directly. :p

Atrahasis
17-09-2007, 02:41
According to my word processor a stat of zero or '0' (or, in accordance with the WFB rulebook, '-') does mean an absence of a stat.

zero
n (plural zeros or zeroes)
1. symbol 0: the numerical symbol 0, representing the absence of any quantity or magnitude

It is the absence of any quantity, not the absence of any value. Zero is a value.

There is a difference between nothing and zero.

Palatine Katinka
17-09-2007, 03:15
I'm not going to quote the dictionary again but zero does mean nothing.

Omegakai
17-09-2007, 03:30
oh dear god.
zero is the numerical value of nothing.
Zero is a value. you could use it. but only just. because of the wording "some of these values are never used" I'm choosing to use it as a vaule. thus its used, but thats wrod play.
agian its not clear cut but i am more in favour now of going with the "use the lowest listed" becasue haggling over a rule like this goes agiasnt the intended design of the game.

which is to have fun.

WageMage
17-09-2007, 12:46
According to my word processor a stat of zero or '0' (or, in accordance with the WFB rulebook, '-') does mean an absence of a stat.Tell your Word Processor it's wrong. I'm not even going to argue about this.

You have 2 conflicting statements:
- The general chariot one that says that you don't ever use the 0 stat.
- The specific Giant one that tells us to use the lowest one.

Without a FAQ somewhere I'd rule that the chariot gets to use the initiative of the riders or horses. But only because the chariot rules state that its I is NEVER used.

PS: How would you handle a Dwarven Gyrocopter that can't fly because of a Storm Banner and is charged by something.
Could it flee, as it has a movement of '-'?

Festus
17-09-2007, 13:15
No, it could not flee, as its ground movement is never used :rolleyes:

And this proves what exactly?

FEstus

Atrahasis
17-09-2007, 20:11
Without a FAQ somewhere I'd rule that the chariot gets to use the initiative of the riders or horses. But only because the chariot rules state that its I is NEVER used.The rules do not say the initiative is never used. They say that any statistics that are not included are never used. The chariot has an included initiative (of 0).

Festus
17-09-2007, 20:24
No, the rules say that stats which are either 0 or - are never used. Right there in the BRB.

Festus

Masque
17-09-2007, 20:29
No, the rules say that stats which are either 0 or - are never used. Right there in the BRB.

I don't see any such rule. Care to give us a page number?

Atrahasis
17-09-2007, 20:29
Quotation?

Festus
17-09-2007, 20:37
BRB, p.5, first sentence (maybe second for you English) - but I already gave this... in post 38!

Festus

Masque
17-09-2007, 20:46
I searched that entire paragraph and found nothing that says 0/- characteristics are never used.

Wings of Doom
17-09-2007, 21:02
Ah... in the English book, it doesn't specifically say that stats of 0/- are never used. It's a wee bit ambiguous- it gives ecamples of stats of 0 that aren't used (BS, WS and A), and also confronts S, T and W (if any of them reach 0 the model is slain), and although it hints that having a stat of 0 means you cannot actually use that stat (p.5 paragraph 1 2nd scentence)-

"This usually applies to reatures unable to use missile weapons, so they have BS0, but it might equally well apply to other characteristics too."

Ambiguosity (Ambiguousness? Ambigity?) is shown by the use of 'but' and 'might'- on who's discretion 'might' it be used with other characteristics?

And so I leave you, having resolved very little.

Adieu.

Atrahasis
17-09-2007, 22:07
Ah... in the English book, it doesn't specifically say that stats of 0/- are never used.In fact, that very same page says that stats of 0 are used.


Ambiguosity (Ambiguousness? Ambigity?)Ambiguity.

feeder
18-09-2007, 02:12
Let's pretend for a minute that Atrahasis's take is correct. Chariots are a single model with three complete and separate statlines. Oh No! the Chariot is dead! Since two parts of the model has a T of 0, it is slain and removed from play (BRB, pg 5).
Also, there is a completly redundant passage of the rules for Chariots; as all stats ARE included, just that a lot of them are zero.

Ok, silly time over now. It's very clear in the rules for chariots that the - stats are the same stats that are "not included as they are never used".

I sincerley hope that Atrahasis is taking his stand to show how silly a mindlessly literal RAW edict is.

Atrahasis
18-09-2007, 02:27
Oh No! the Chariot is dead! Since two parts of the model has a T of 0, it is slain and removed from play (BRB, pg 5).Read the rule again before making unfounded and embarrassing claims. Models are removed if their S, T or W are reduced to 0, not if they start out that way. I've even said it once already in this thread, if you could only bother yourself to read it.


Also, there is a completly redundant passage of the rules for Chariots; as all stats ARE included, just that a lot of them are zero.CHARACTERISTICS, not stats. Saves appear under the general header of characteristics, and the chariot only shows one.

Palatine Katinka
18-09-2007, 03:09
You have 2 conflicting statements:
- The general chariot one that says that you don't ever use the 0 stat.
- The specific Giant one that tells us to use the lowest one.

I would actually call the Giant's rules the general ones as it refers to hitting any multi profile model, such as chariots or cavalry, and the chariot rules specific as they only apply to chariots.


CHARACTERISTICS, not stats. Saves appear under the general header of characteristics, and the chariot only shows one.

Are you seriously saying that the save is what the rules are refering to when they say ""some characteristics are not included in the profile as they are never used."? I ask because the one save listed for the chariot model is not in the profile. This would mean that chariots never get to use their save.

Atrahasis
18-09-2007, 03:35
A profile is merely a list of values describing the model's abilities. Nowhere do the rules say that saves are not part of the profile.

Assuming that '-' is an omitted value requires us to ignore rules; my approach does not.

Palatine Katinka
18-09-2007, 03:45
A profile is merely a list of values describing the model's abilities. Nowhere do the rules say that saves are not part of the profile.

Except page 5, where "PROFILES" and "SAVING THROWS" are two different sections of the "CHARACTERISTICS" rules. I'll admit that a save is a type of characteristic as it is listed within the rules for characteristics however it is neither listed in the rules for profiles nor listed in the example profiles. If we were discussing 40k then saves would be part of the profile (listed as Sv) but WFB doesn't list saves in the characteristic profile of a model.

feeder
18-09-2007, 05:11
Read the rule again before making unfounded and embarrassing claims. Models are removed if their S, T or W are reduced to 0, not if they start out that way. I've even said it once already in this thread, if you could only bother yourself to read it.

Yes, reduced by magic or a special rule. The special rule, in this case, is "Chariot". Goblins and Elves have a T3, however this is reduced to 0 when mounted in a chariot.
You were referring to W, not T. W are covered in the rules for Chariots, which WLBjork already pointed out.


CHARACTERISTICS, not stats. Saves appear under the general header of characteristics, and the chariot only shows one.
Well, the first sentance is displaying signs of massive pedantry. You knew exactly what I was referring to. The second sentance has no bearing on anything I've said. Were you responding to someone else?

Bernardinatti
18-09-2007, 07:00
This is a problem that i have also run into myself. To me, (fluff wise i believe the term would be) the idea of Thump with Club is that the giant goes for a massive downwards "thump". The whole idea of the initiative test, in my mind, is whatever is being thumped trying to dodge the attack. Sidestep or whatever. Now again in my mind i don't really see a chariot nimbly stepping to the side to dodge the attack. Ergo, automatic wounds....

Festus
18-09-2007, 08:41
Hi

Fluff doesn't help a bit unfortunately. As WHFB is heroic fantasy, you can easily picture a Hollywoodesk charioteer urging his beasts to make a quick start jump and draw the chariot away in the last moment. Very much action movie :)

BTW: Could anyone please give me the quote of the English rulebook's page 5 first sentence? Please?

Festus

WLBjork
18-09-2007, 10:10
Sure Festus:


Some creatures have been given a value of '0' (sometimes shown as a dash: '-') for certain characteristics, which means they have no ability whatsoever in that skill.

Festus
18-09-2007, 10:18
Hi

Thank you very much. Well, the German one says something about *skill is never used* ...

Sometime soon I will have to lay my hand on an English rulebook :(

Does anyone of you guys have one as a surplus? Preferably a SkullPass one, which he/she doesn't neeed and is willing to sell or trade?

Well.

I will post something in the trading forum, I guess... :(

Festus

Omegakai
18-09-2007, 20:01
Fetus. please pm me your email adress, preferably gmail.

Omegakai
04-12-2007, 22:04
any more feed back. the issue isnt clearly resolved. i still feel as thou a chariot would auto lose. but it dose not make it fact.

marv335
05-12-2007, 00:42
My reading of it is that you would use the lowest useable stat.
As you can't use a stat of - you'd use the I of the crew or horses/wolves/boars/lions/cold ones etc

Atrahasis
05-12-2007, 00:49
Hooray a necro'd thread :(

There has been no further official clarification (and Hell is still a toasty 1200 degrees); until there is there'll always be people on both sides of this.

@marv : you can use a stat of -, - means 0. ;)

T10
05-12-2007, 08:34
Two options, really:

1. you can use a stat of -, - means 0.

2. you can't use the "-" stats on a chariot, only the provided values are ever used.

That's the current state of things, so you need to decide for your self what approach you find to be most reasonable.

-T10

Asmodiseus
08-01-2009, 06:45
Hello all. First off I want to appologize for the severe case of necromancy especially on a thread that was as hotly debated as this one was. I would make a new post alas I need two actual posts before I can make a new thread. On the bright side I actually used the search feature before asking a question.


Anyways two questions

First I assume the OP question is still unresolved officially by GW and as such is left between the players to decide on between themselves?

Question two has to do with what happens if the club does in fact hit.

On page 31 of the BRB it states that:

"Some war machines, spells, or magic weapons are so destructive that if a model is hit and wounded by them, the victim doesn't lose 1 wound, but a number of wounds equal to a D3, D6, etc, (As noted in the weapons rules). In such cases roll to hit and to wound as normal and then take any armor saves and ward saves that apply. Finally for each wound that is not saved, roll the appropriate dice and add their results together to determine how many wounds are caused."

Now if a Giant thumps my Black Coach do I roll my 4+ ward save for each wound or do I roll one dice and if I save, I take no wounds?

I argued that as per the rule above the Giants club attack falls into this category as it clearly states that Thump with a Club is a "Single mighty Strike" and as such this strike if it hits (ie if the model fails the I test) causes not one wound but 2D6 wounds.

Naturally my opponent argued that while it is indeed one attack it does not fall under the rule listed above (He did not clarify why) and I should have to roll for each wound caused.

Any help would be appreciated and again I'm sorry for the threadomancy.

Atrahasis
08-01-2009, 09:25
One ward save, then multiply.

Asmodiseus
08-01-2009, 09:38
Ah thats what I wanted to here thank you Atrahasis