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Nargrakhan
14-09-2007, 03:07
Something that's been bothering me more and more, each time I read old threads concerning the Necrons and Tyranids:

Are they ignoring each other?

Maybe I'm just not finding enough diversity in my searches, but most discussions seem to indicate that neither "armageddon race" really opposes each other.

Now I can understand why the Tyranids avoid Necron tomb world - the biomass is generally unappealing when they have millions upon millions of juicer plants to naw on first - but why do the Necrons leave them be?

I mean if the 'Nids get the invasion momentum their seeking, the gathered total biomass will make them unstoppable and all organic life would be exterminated. Not exactly a thing for the Necron's own needs, correct?

Ktotwf
14-09-2007, 03:14
Something that's been bothering me more and more, each time I read old threads concerning the Necrons and Tyranids:

Are they ignoring each other?

Maybe I'm just not finding enough diversity in my searches, but most discussions seem to indicate that neither "armageddon race" really opposes each other.

Now I can understand why the Tyranids avoid Necron tomb world - the biomass is generally unappealing when they have millions upon millions of juicer plants to naw on first - but why do the Necrons leave them be?

I mean if the 'Nids get the invasion momentum their seeking, the gathered total biomass will make them unstoppable and all organic life would be exterminated. Not exactly a thing for the Necron's own needs, correct?

They seem to have ignored each other so far (they probably clashed a few times on Medusa) but the fact is that the Tyranids are the ones avoiding the Necrons (the Tyranids have no real reason to go after them), so the long awaited clash between the apocalypse races will have to wait until the Necrons make the move.

But, surely the Necrons want to harvest the incomparable buffet that is the Tyranid superorganism. It isn't really a question of If, but When.

Hive Mind 33
14-09-2007, 03:15
Something that's been bothering me more and more, each time I read old threads concerning the Necrons and Tyranids:

Are they ignoring each other?

Maybe I'm just not finding enough diversity in my searches, but most discussions seem to indicate that neither "armageddon race" really opposes each other.

Now I can understand why the Tyranids avoid Necron tomb world - the biomass is generally unappealing when they have millions upon millions of juicer plants to naw on first - but why do the Necrons leave them be?

I mean if the 'Nids get the invasion momentum their seeking, the gathered total biomass will make them unstoppable and all organic life would be exterminated. Not exactly a thing for the Necron's own needs, correct?

they are both going towards the same goal. The nids destroy everything and move on they don't stay on a planet. Why attack something that helps

Khaine's Messenger
14-09-2007, 03:15
I mean if the 'Nids get the invasion momentum their seeking, the gathered total biomass will make them unstoppable and all organic life would be exterminated. Not exactly a thing for the Necron's own needs, correct?

The Tyranid and Necron "endgame" scenarios are kind of not even on the same wavelength, though. If the Nids kill everything and truck off with it...eh. The Necrons waited through one near-apocalypse. And if they erect their warp barrier, it's not like the Tyranids will be much of a problem for longer.... :chrome:

Ktotwf
14-09-2007, 03:33
The Tyranid and Necron "endgame" scenarios are kind of not even on the same wavelength, though. If the Nids kill everything and truck off with it...eh. The Necrons waited through one near-apocalypse. And if they erect their warp barrier, it's not like the Tyranids will be much of a problem for longer.... :chrome:

Yes, but if the Tyranids eat everything, then they will leave the galaxy in such a state that NO LIFE will ever grow again, and so the Necrons will go back to sleep for all eternity.

Twisted Ferret
14-09-2007, 04:47
I thought the Necrons wanted to exterminate all organic life themselves, so that the Warp would be sealed off from realspace?

Ktotwf
14-09-2007, 04:50
I thought the Necrons wanted to exterminate all organic life themselves, so that the Warp would be sealed off from realspace?


Depends on who you ask. Some say they want to enslave all races to their dark gods, some say they want to harvest their souls, some say they want to exterminate all life.

I prefer the idea that they want to exterminate everyone, but...I dunno. What comes with that is also the "Harvesting" idea, and as the Tyranids are a powerful Warp presence, AND the largest known concentration of organic life, one would think that the 'nids would be Necron Target Numero Uno.

The only possible explanation for them not fighting is that one or both are afraid of the other.

Khaine's Messenger
14-09-2007, 04:58
Yes, but if the Tyranids eat everything, then they will leave the galaxy in such a state that NO LIFE will ever grow again, and so the Necrons will go back to sleep for all eternity.

There are no guarantees of that. In fact, the Tyranids (per "Hive Fleet Horror") seem pretty convinced that life will spring anew at some point after they leave. And then another hive fleet will come in.... That's the thing to keep in mind with respect to the Tyranids. The Tyranid "end game" isn't really an "end game," period, unlike all the Power Cosmic level threats. It's just a continuing cycle.

Ktotwf
14-09-2007, 05:00
There are no guarantees of that. In fact, the Tyranids (per "Hive Fleet Horror") seem pretty convinced that life will spring anew at some point after they leave. And then another hive fleet will come in.... That's the thing to keep in mind with respect to the Tyranids. The Tyranid "end game" isn't really an "end game," period, unlike all the Power Cosmic level threats. It's just a continuing cycle.

All I have EVER heard is that the Tyranids strip absolutely everything bare, and then leave. They are like superlocusts, that eat galaxies instead of cropfields.

They don't need life to spring up again, because they simply move on to one of the other 100,000,000,000 galaxies floating around.

Khaine's Messenger
14-09-2007, 05:05
They don't need life to spring up again, because they simply move on to one of the other 100,000,000,000 galaxies floating around.

They do not require life to spring anew, no. But they have the possibility covered, just in case. They're nothing if not thorough.

MadDogMike
14-09-2007, 07:10
Pretty sure the Tyranids strip atmosphere and all the top layers of a planet bare; you aren't getting life back after that, that'll ensure even bacteria are screwed. As for them and Necrons, I am fairly certain the Necrons want to eradicate all but a few life forms which they'd "farm"; the apocalyptic vision one of the Eldar had in the Necron codex had humanity basically being slowly killed off in the various fashions each C'Tan prefered in its food. And the Necrons have been taking people on their raids, it isn't unlikely they've already started "farming" efforts somewhere. So if the Tyranids stumble onto such a farm (or more likely the Necrons manage to grab genestealer hybrids as part of it) there'd be a reason for Necrons and Tyranids to fight. And of course there have been plenty of settled tomb worlds like Kronus that Tyranids might be attracted to that the Necrons would fight for. Overall the goals of the Tyranids and Necrons do conflict, it's just that it's so far in the future that they're a very low priority for each other (so far as we know anyway, if they rumbled would the Imperium necessarily know?).

starlight
14-09-2007, 07:23
That logic only works in human lifespans, or perhaps lifespans of human civilisations...

There is a theory (THEORY people, this is not the place to try to refute the theory, it's simply to make a point!) that at some point in the distant past Mars was inhabited and the Earth was uninhabitable as we know it. The sun cooled, leaving Mars too cold to sustain life and Earth just right to be seeded from extra-terrestrial bacteria.

If the Tyranids had harvested Mars when it was teeming with life, the Earth would still have gone on to support us as we are now. If they came now and stripped Earth, it's *possible* that Venus would host life millions of years from now as the Sun continued to cool... Not that it would be recognisable to us...

Just a theory... ;) (waits for it to show up in the GW background...)

Voltaire
14-09-2007, 08:42
The Necrontyr represent an evolutionary stump for the Tyranids. Any race which evolves by consuming life is not going to be doing much evolving eating big sheets of metal now is it? This means that the Tyranids really have no reason to want to conflict with the Necrontyr in any way shape or form.

There is, of course, the old theory that the Outsider of the C'tan is infact the Hive Mind and the Tyranids were invented as one of the C'Tan fail safes against overly populated universes when they began to awaken.

pookie
14-09-2007, 09:57
do the Necrons even register a prescence to the Nids? they have no prescence in the warp - IIRC, and the hive mind uses this 'signature' to find systems with sufficent life.

i also doubt any planet attacked by the Nids would ever evolve life again, and unless im wrong the Nids leave all planets in a system barren rocks similar to moons, and dont skip past certain planets to feed on others ( unless there is more life on one than the other) but would still go back and strip the rest of the planets in that system before moving on.

Bookwrak
14-09-2007, 10:27
A planet that has been over taken by a hive fleet has all it's biomatter devoured down to bedrock, and even its atmosphere stripped away. A entire galaxy that has been stripped by a hive fleet that then moved onto into the galactic void would be entirely dead, until such a long time has passed that stars, solar systems, and planets been born and developed to the point where naturally occurring amino acids become self motivating, and the whole process of life stars over again.

If Necrons were on a planet being over run by Tyranids, and for whatever reason they didn't want to fight, they could just go sit in a cave, not move, and the swarm would probably pass them by. They're not biological, and if they're not percieved as a threat, they probably will be ignored.

However, the C'tan apprently love the sweet, juicy, life force of sentient beings, and having everything wiped out by nids, who probably don't taste as good, would annoy them greatly. Thus, the Necrons would probably be content to let most of the galaxy get munched, so long as they were able to preserve a few cattle planets.

Then again, that kind of galaxy would be boring, and star gods hate to be bored.

Megad00mer
14-09-2007, 12:39
In the Tyranid codex, there is a blurb about the amount of psychic energy a Hive Fleet produces and how it's unknown how the Tyranids avoid the attentions of demons. Two theories are put forth: Either the Tyranids have a level of psychic mastery unimaginable by the other races, or a much more simple explanation....Tyranids simply have no souls. (Ockham's razor could apply here)

If that's true, then it makes perfect sense why the Necrons and Tyranids seem to ignore each other. The Tyranids have no interest in the Necrons because of the lack of usable biomass. Tyranids are predators first and foremost and no predator would waste their time taking down prey they cant eat.

The Necrons harvest souls for the C'tan, and the C'tan seem to feel that fear and despair "season" the souls and make them even more nourishing. Why expend the energy to harvest a race that has no souls and cannot feel fear or despair?

Just my little theory ;)

FigureFour
14-09-2007, 12:50
i also doubt any planet attacked by the Nids would ever evolve life again, and unless im wrong the Nids leave all planets in a system barren rocks similar to moons, and dont skip past certain planets to feed on others ( unless there is more life on one than the other) but would still go back and strip the rest of the planets in that system before moving on.

You know, it's possible for inorganic compounds to spontaniously generate organic matter under certain circumstances. It's how life originated in the first place.

It just takes several million years.

Hive Mind 33
14-09-2007, 13:10
The Necrontyr represent an evolutionary stump for the Tyranids. Any race which evolves by consuming life is not going to be doing much evolving eating big sheets of metal now is it? This means that the Tyranids really have no reason to want to conflict with the Necrontyr in any way shape or form.

There is, of course, the old theory that the Outsider of the C'tan is infact the Hive Mind and the Tyranids were invented as one of the C'Tan fail safes against overly populated universes when they began to awaken.

thats kinda contradictory cause the C'Tan would love all that food.

elvinltl
14-09-2007, 14:16
Both are created to Harvest... Eventually when all other life die out they will Harvest each other.

Honestly, they had never encounter each other as much as they did with other races...

Xomborg
14-09-2007, 14:43
it is really simple. Tyranids have nothing to gain from defeating Necrons (they wouldn't be easy to defeat anyways) and Necrons (plus C'Tan) wont find any tasty souls.

Ignore each other? No, they are well aware of each other, but why attack when it will earn you nothing?

Megad00mer
14-09-2007, 14:50
I think "ignore" is the wrong term to use. They just don't actively seek each other out because neither would have anything to gain.

The Tyranids and Necrons would definitely fight if the situation called for it though, such as fighting over the same world to harvest/consume.

ryng_sting
14-09-2007, 17:14
The Tyranids don't go after Necron worlds simply and solely because they have no biomass to harvest. Their worlds are a waste of time and resources to harvest, so why bother with them?

C'tan don't eat souls: they feast on the electro-magnetism from living organic bodies, among other things.

MadDogMike
14-09-2007, 19:09
You know, it's possible for inorganic compounds to spontaniously generate organic matter under certain circumstances. It's how life originated in the first place.

It just takes several million years.

Problem is the Tyranids are likely to hit most if not all the planets within the primary biosphere of the local star (i.e. the region where planets are not too close or too far from the sun to sustain life) that have the compounds needed for life. Also that inorganic to organic bit you mention was if memory serves catalyzed by lightning strikes, which obviously requires an atmosphere. If the Tyranids strip the galaxy bare it probably wouldn't mean it was empty FOREVER (if nothing else somewhere you'd have rogues world get slung into the primary biosphere or cometary impacts from the local Oort Cloud could provide water to worlds), but it would be a LONG time before anything came back, quite probably billions of years at least. The Necrons wouldn't mind if the Tyranids eat all their enemies, but eventually the Tyranids would go after whatever food sources the C'Tan are keeping and THAT they wouldn't approve of. So if the Tyranids eat the Imperium, Eldar, Tau, Orks, and whatnot out there they will inevitably go after Necron stuff, and the Necrons are smart enough to know that. Given that the C'Tan think long-range, it's entirely possible they're working to bloody the Tyranids in places even without a direct goal of protecting their living metal hides, simply to ensure when the Hive Mind does turn its attention towards them it's not a super-strong mass swollen with the biomass of millions of worlds. The best situation for them after all is everyone broken and weaken from warfare, not one all-powerful victor.

FigureFour
14-09-2007, 19:16
thats kinda contradictory cause the C'Tan would love all that food.

But why bother with eating all those icky meatlings when you can get all the energy you need from good old fashioned nuclear fusion?


Also that inorganic to organic bit you mention was if memory serves catalyzed by lightning strikes, which obviously requires an atmosphere.

Well, that's the theory we've tested and proved possible. It doesn't mean it's the only way. Besides, atmosphere can be generated spontaniously as well. Admitedly it would take some wierd circumstances, but a tyranid devoured world isn't beyond supporting life again, especially with terraforming efforts.


If the Tyranids strip the galaxy bare it probably wouldn't mean it was empty FOREVER (if nothing else somewhere you'd have rogues world get slung into the primary biosphere or cometary impacts from the local Oort Cloud could provide water to worlds), but it would be a LONG time before anything came back, quite probably billions of years at least.

Agreed.


The Necrons wouldn't mind if the Tyranids eat all their enemies, but eventually the Tyranids would go after whatever food sources the C'Tan are keeping and THAT they wouldn't approve of.

Tyranids eat stars now? Because that seems to be the C'Tan's other food source. Stars and possibly advanced nuclear fusion reactors.


So if the Tyranids eat the Imperium, Eldar, Tau, Orks, and whatnot out there they will inevitably go after Necron stuff, and the Necrons are smart enough to know that. Given that the C'Tan think long-range, it's entirely possible they're working to bloody the Tyranids in places even without a direct goal of protecting their living metal hides, simply to ensure when the Hive Mind does turn its attention towards them it's not a super-strong mass swollen with the biomass of millions of worlds. The best situation for them after all is everyone broken and weaken from warfare, not one all-powerful victor.

Sure, but in the long term, Tyranids are a totally unsustanable organism. They aren't going to consume all life in the universe, they are going to consume all the life they can get to easily and then start to starve. A short ten billion year nap would sort the Tyranids right out.

Of course, that would make for a boring wargame.

elvinltl
16-09-2007, 14:44
I think GW is saving Alien VS Predator fight to the last...

I think Necrons harvest Souls while Tyranid harvest Biomatter. They both harvest two different things and thus they should work together, after killing the Tyranids can devour the flesh and Necrons collect the souls.

PERFECT?!!!

Iracundus
16-09-2007, 14:46
Necrons don't collect souls, as someone has already stated.

RexTalon
16-09-2007, 17:13
A planet that has been over taken by a hive fleet has all it's biomatter devoured down to bedrock, and even its atmosphere stripped away. A entire galaxy that has been stripped by a hive fleet that then moved onto into the galactic void would be entirely dead, until such a long time has passed that stars, solar systems, and planets been born and developed to the point where naturally occurring amino acids become self motivating, and the whole process of life stars over again.

If Necrons were on a planet being over run by Tyranids, and for whatever reason they didn't want to fight, they could just go sit in a cave, not move, and the swarm would probably pass them by. They're not biological, and if they're not percieved as a threat, they probably will be ignored.

However, the C'tan apprently love the sweet, juicy, life force of sentient beings, and having everything wiped out by nids, who probably don't taste as good, would annoy them greatly. Thus, the Necrons would probably be content to let most of the galaxy get munched, so long as they were able to preserve a few cattle planets.

Then again, that kind of galaxy would be boring, and star gods hate to be bored.
THANK YOU!

Everyone has been saying that the Tyranids wouldn't eat the Necrons. THAT'S NOT THE POINT!

The Nids would eat the planet that the Necrons are entombed upon! There is no evidence that suggests that all Necron planets are useless wastes. In fact, the reason we know they exist is because we find a nice planet that looks like a good place to settle down and they pop out of nowhere to destroy us.

The subject people have thus far been ignoring is that each of these races has an imprint on the warp. The Necrons are known to use Pariahs, which have a null imprint. The Nids are known to cast a Warp "Shadow" which blots out everything.

It could be surmised that the Nids somehow use the warp to guide themselves from planet to planet. If they detected a planet with a negative imprint on the warp they may ignore it thinking that it's not even a planet. The planets they had run across so far, didn't have the same "look" to them so, as any animal would, they pass it by without even recognizing it.

RexTalon
16-09-2007, 17:17
C'tan don't eat souls: they feast on the electro-magnetism from living organic bodies, among other things.

Who says those aren't the same thing?;)

Tanith Ghost
16-09-2007, 17:56
When's the last time an EMP shorted out your soul? :p

jowiczad
16-09-2007, 18:22
As a representative of the Hive, I have one question.

Why wouldn't the tyranids eat the necrons? They don't just consume biomatter, they eat almost everything, stripping a planet to its bedrock. Seems to me they could munch through a bunch of metal skellies.

Bruen
16-09-2007, 18:27
Pretty sure the Tyranids strip atmosphere and all the top layers of a planet bare; you aren't getting life back after that, that'll ensure even bacteria are screwed.

You are just thinking too short term.

Over the millennia life will return as asteroid colisions, comets and changes in the local star move the habitable zone around. Sure, it might take hundreds of thousands of years but the Tyranid has time in spades. The whole history of life on Earth is only 3.5 billion years long. How long do you think it took to cruise in hibernation from the last galazy that they snacked on? The Tyranid will just swing by again after devouring a few more galaxies and there will be fresh life to consume.

If all else fails the Tyranid has been observed setting up farm worlds in a few places so if all else failes it can seed worlds with suitable bacteria and then come back and eat them once they are ready.

Kandarin
16-09-2007, 21:33
THANK YOU!The Nids would eat the planet that the Necrons are entombed upon! There is no evidence that suggests that all Necron planets are useless wastes. In fact, the reason we know they exist is because we find a nice planet that looks like a good place to settle down and they pop out of nowhere to destroy us.

The Necrons do usually set up on dead worlds, but that's simply because the overwhelming majority of planets in the galaxy are dead worlds. Unlike other races, the Necrons don't have to take air, water, biomass, or temperature into account when picking real estate. Whether a world is habitable by fleshy races isn't a factor they take into consideration when setting up bases. As a result, the vast majority of their facilities are strewn around the dead worlds that make up most of the galaxy's land.

Iracundus
16-09-2007, 21:51
Necron bases are sometimes found on living worlds such as Armageddon and Medusa V. In such cases where Tyranids have already started consuming, I think they'd continue and consume the Necrons along with everything else.

However in the cases where it is a dead world, there'd be no Genestealer cult to send a psychic signal calling the main fleet and there'd be no native biosphere to make it worthwhile for a fleet scout to summon the fleet. The amount of effort to overcome any Necron resistance wouldn't justify the limited return on investment. It's simple cost vs. return.

LordXaras
16-09-2007, 22:34
But why bother with eating all those icky meatlings when you can get all the energy you need from good old fashioned nuclear fusion?Why go for an all you can eat buffet, with all the food prepared by gourmet chefs, everything laid out only for you, when you can just as well eat some grey nutrient paste and swallow some vitamin pills?

RexTalon
17-09-2007, 00:48
When's the last time an EMP shorted out your soul? :p

There was that one time...

but I got better.:D

Ktotwf
17-09-2007, 01:13
This is the 41st milennium, and there is only war.

As such, we should come up with reasons that the Tyranids and Necrons WOULD fight, and not reasons why they should not.

pookie
17-09-2007, 12:39
This is the 41st milennium, and there is only war.

As such, we should come up with reasons that the Tyranids and Necrons WOULD fight, and not reasons why they should not.

well simply - they would fight over the nice juicy bio mass that they both love to feast upon,

Are all the tomb worlds in certain places in the galaxy? could it be that the Nids are yet to encounter the Crons in anything otehr than small scale battles?

Shadow_Wing
17-09-2007, 12:45
@ Pookie: If I recall correctly, there was one incident in which a fleet was heading straight towards a Tomb world. Then, nearing it, it completely redirected its course and maneuvered around the Necron world/s. So in this case at least, the Tyranids were unwilling to get anywhere near the Necrons.

Perhaps the two sides are simply gathering strength before they clash?

grickherder
17-09-2007, 12:48
Also, just because millions of years ago, the Necron scourged their planets so the Enslavers wouldn't come, doesn't mean that someone else hasn't terraformed them in the last 10,000 years. The tyranids could want to eat the planet like any other and the Necrons are waking up, so they fight them for the harvest, to gather intelligence, etc.,.

LordXaras
17-09-2007, 13:16
One important thing to notice is that the goals of the Necrons and those of the C'tan are not one and the same. The C'tan first noticed that life tasted good, then they noticed that the Necrontyr hated everything living, so they decided to use them. Unless instruceted not to, I would assume that a Necron force will simply eradicate everything around them, but the C'tan want something quite different and they have harnessed the power of the Necrontyr in a way that will leave nothing opposing them.

The Tyranids have absolutely no interest in the Necrons or their glowing masters, but the C'tan definitely won't have their galaxy cleansed once again, it just wont do. I can definitely see C'tan beginning to strike at the Hive Fleets to protect their favourite places of harvest, but it will take some time before the Tyranids react to this new threat (despite being mindless animals individually, together the Hive Mind is definitely capable of recognizing a grave threat when they see one).

With the events of Xenology, the Deceiver now has quite great insight into the functions and weaknesses of the Tyranid swarm, and I suspect he is developing a means of ultimate protections against the Tyranid...

Iracundus
17-09-2007, 13:19
Of course that assumes the Tech-Priest is actually accurate in his wild speculations. He merely believes he found a weakness in the Tyranids, but it reeks too much of Death Star syndrome, and the Tyranids are all about constant adaptation. The Tech-Priest is a fallible character in the 40K universe, and considering he can't even write accurate biology using biological terms, I wouldn't place too much weight on what he speculates.

The whole bit about a Tyranid fleet avoiding Necrons is from the back of the Necron Codex where the Tyranid Leviathan fleet detours around the Outsider's Dyson sphere. As already mentioned by me and others, the amount of heavy resistance compared to the amount of nutrition in that sphere doesn't make it worth the Tyranid effort to try and consume. There isn't any need to invoke any weird conspiracy theories or links between the two races.

Scribemite
17-09-2007, 20:21
Anybody remember Unicron from Transformers the Movie (the original animated move)? That was a sentient planet that devoured other planets and used all of the materials, including the rock, metal and other stuff, to give him energy. If Tyranids are all about adaptation, couldn't they evolve to be able to consume Necrons and their structures? Sure, metal isn't biomass in a loose sense of the word, but it could all come down to molecules and electrons that feeds the hunger of some weird line of Tryanids.

Iracundus
17-09-2007, 21:03
Tyranids already consume metals and other inorganics

The Song of Spears
17-09-2007, 21:12
There is a theory (THEORY people, this is not the place to try to refute the theory, it's simply to make a point!) that at some point in the distant past Mars was inhabited and the Earth was uninhabitable as we know it. The sun cooled, leaving Mars too cold to sustain life and Earth just right to be seeded from extra-terrestrial bacteria.

If the Tyranids had harvested Mars when it was teeming with life, the Earth would still have gone on to support us as we are now. If they came now and stripped Earth, it's *possible* that Venus would host life millions of years from now as the Sun continued to cool... Not that it would be recognisable to us...


You seem to be mixing 'cool' and 'removal of all biomass and atmosphere'...

removal of biomass is not the same as a cold planet. In fact very low freezing temperatures could preserve certain life forms.

The Tyranids do not freeze a planet. They take everything that can be deconstructed in any fashion, this is up to and including natural metals such as titanium. And after they blast off, they obliterate what little atmosphere the planet had or that they could not take with. They leave behind a barren rock that has no usable minerals or biomass whatsoever. They are in fact on the of the sure fire races to kill off Orks.

The Necrons are searching for 'Essence' and the jury is still out on exactly what that is. But due to there being no reports of Tyranid vs. Necron battles, and the general belief that a individual Tyranid has no soul, it is possible that the Tyranids provide no 'essence' of the kind the Necrons need to feed the C'tan.

Iracundus
17-09-2007, 21:15
Necrons don't go after souls. It's revealed as much in the Necron Codex when the souls of those consumed by the dormant Dragon on Mars are set adrift in the warp. The theorized Tyranid lack of individual souls would have no relevance to the Necrons since the Necrons don't touch that kind of warp stuff at all.

There have been Necron vs. Tyranid battles btw such as on Medusa V. If the Necrons are on a world with a biosphere, they'd be attacked just like anything else, and treated as just one more obstacle. It's just that with many (not all) Necron tombs being on dead worlds, those cases aren't worth the Tyranid effort to engage.

Ktotwf
17-09-2007, 23:14
Thats what Games Workshop needs to step up and deliver - mmm mmm good Necron vs. Tyranid action.

Necron on Tyranid > Girl on Girl

Hive Mind 33
18-09-2007, 02:41
Thats what Games Workshop needs to step up and deliver - mmm mmm good Necron vs. Tyranid action.

Necron on Tyranid > Girl on Girl

ROTFLMAO Thank you for my new sign

elvinltl
19-09-2007, 05:09
AHHA!! Girl on Girl, can't wait to see the Catfight!!!

They should be fighting each other since both want to "Harvest". The supply of crops falls as Necrons harvest and this will anger the Tyranids, vice versa so they should fight for their food!!!

Btw, what exactly does Necrons harvest? Not souls? I only know in a living Organism there is two components, Soul and Body, if they harvest neither then why all the killing?

pookie
19-09-2007, 09:48
Btw, what exactly does Necrons harvest? Not souls? I only know in a living Organism there is two components, Soul and Body, if they harvest neither then why all the killing?

well that really woudl depend on wether you belive in souls ;)

some say its the 'electrical force' within humans they harvest, some people think this is the same as a soul, theres been recent threads about Soul's and what they actually are.

in some ways, considering Crons and the warp dont mix, i would think that what they Harvest isnt something that can be an entity within the Warp ( human sould smaybe too weak, but the Eldar certainly have something that appears in the Warp upon death ) ie a Soul.

ryng_sting
19-09-2007, 15:11
Who says those aren't the same thing?;)

The Necron Codex. It states the C'tan feed on the electro-magnetism generated by organic life. A soul, which is a person's warp-signature, is distinct from this. This is what the daemon that Abaddon summons means when he says the 'precious souls are discarded', and that many of its kind are eating well as a result.

As Tyranids are organic beings, they too are on the Necron menu. There's no conspiracy behind why the Tyranids avoid them: they're just crumbs in an zone of feasts.

7thOffensive
19-09-2007, 19:00
Nids could always evolve to eat metal ... that's what they do. Evolve.

gorgon
19-09-2007, 20:37
There is, of course, the old theory that the Outsider of the C'tan is infact the Hive Mind and the Tyranids were invented as one of the C'Tan fail safes against overly populated universes when they began to awaken.

The problem with that is C'tan are galactic in origin. Tyranids are extragalactic. The Tyranid fluff is all about them being nature itself run amok and something totally alien to our galaxy. They're the unknown, the "here be monsters" on the uncharted regions of the map.

Too many people play RTS computer games loosely based on 40K and get ideas about Tyranids being created by races. ;)

Witchfire
19-09-2007, 21:15
it is really simple. Tyranids have nothing to gain from defeating Necrons (they wouldn't be easy to defeat anyways) and Necrons (plus C'Tan) wont find any tasty souls.

Ignore each other? No, they are well aware of each other, but why attack when it will earn you nothing?

i agree, although surely the nids would love to feast on some tasty gauss energy

VanHel
19-09-2007, 21:51
Well we know that the nids already eat metals to reinforce their armour and such things, and the necrons are metal...so necrons=food?

Iracundus
19-09-2007, 22:23
Yes, but given how much resistance Necrons can put up, why bother when there are lots of more nutritionally satisfying organics to consume like the humans? It's again a matter of return for effort invested. Necrons and their tombs are minimal return for a lot of effort.

Torga_DW
19-09-2007, 22:47
I think the nidz will try to avoid the necrons whereever possible, due to lack of organic biomass inherent in their armies. The c'tan, however, are smart enough to realize that the nidz will eventually try to eat all their food. They can't possibly allow that. Sooner or later, mass conflict between the two is inevitable. Otherwise why wake up? Roll over, hit snooze and go back to bed for another few billion years; some fat guy is in the process of eating all your breakfast anyways.

Voltaire
19-09-2007, 22:47
Has anybody considered that the Tyranids may actually be something of a fail-safe mechanism for the C'Tan to ensure the complete destruction and devastation of Chaos from existence by making it so nobody can actively summon the Chaos which is so destructive to the C'Tan?

The way they are going about destroying everything in the universe seems to imply some sort of anti-warp regime, especially seeing as how they have all but dodged the C'Tan so far.

Ktotwf
19-09-2007, 23:08
Yes, but given how much resistance Necrons can put up, why bother when there are lots of more nutritionally satisfying organics to consume like the humans? It's again a matter of return for effort invested. Necrons and their tombs are minimal return for a lot of effort.

Since when have the Tyranids taken cost/effect into consideration? Why attack the insanely well armed Milky Way galaxy anyway? Aren't there hundreds of billions of other galaxies?

If we are talking about an all consuming race that has devoured galaxies, I don't think some weakling robots or their pretentious Star Gods are going to stand in their way.

If the Tyranids are going to devour the whole galaxy as planned, there is going to have to be a reckoning with the Necrontyr anyway, best do it before the long attrition against the Imperium, Eldar, Tau, and Orks.

Ktotwf
19-09-2007, 23:13
Has anybody considered that the Tyranids may actually be something of a fail-safe mechanism for the C'Tan to ensure the complete destruction and devastation of Chaos from existence by making it so nobody can actively summon the Chaos which is so destructive to the C'Tan?

The way they are going about destroying everything in the universe seems to imply some sort of anti-warp regime, especially seeing as how they have all but dodged the C'Tan so far.

No. The Tyranids are an extragalactic race whose existence is independent of anything that has passed within the Milky Way.

That is what is GREAT about them - they don't care who you are, or what you can do, they will eat you just the same, because they have eaten galaxies before, and they keep plowing on.

To deny them that salient alienness would be such a sucky choice it makes me want to cry - it would totally ruin the Tyranid fluff.

RexTalon
19-09-2007, 23:24
To deny them that salient alienness would be such a sucky choice it makes me want to cry - it would totally ruin the Tyranid fluff.
Which is exactly why GW would come out and say that it's true.

Edit: BTW, Mars doesn't have life or a suitable atmosphere because it has no magnetosphere to protect it from solar wind and radiation.

Ktotwf
19-09-2007, 23:26
Edit: BTW, Mars doesn't have life or a suitable atmosphere because it has no magnetosphere to protect it from solar wind and radiation.

Tell that to the Adeptus Mechanicus

DantesInferno
19-09-2007, 23:33
That is what is GREAT about them - they don't care who you are, or what you can do, they will eat you just the same, because they have eaten galaxies before, and they keep plowing on.

Where are you getting this idea that the Tyranids have eaten galaxies before?

All we know for sure (as far as I'm aware, anyway), is that they're coming from outside the galaxy. Now, it might be because they finished off devouring the previous galaxies they were in. But there are also a host of other possible explanations. Perhaps they left their old galaxy, not because they had devoured all the biomass in it, but because they're fleeing from something there :eek:

Ktotwf
19-09-2007, 23:41
Where are you getting this idea that the Tyranids have eaten galaxies before?

All we know for sure (as far as I'm aware, anyway), is that they're coming from outside the galaxy. Now, it might be because they finished off devouring the previous galaxies they were in. But there are also a host of other possible explanations. Perhaps they left their old galaxy, not because they had devoured all the biomass in it, but because they're fleeing from something there :eek:

Well, alot of it is context.

They are called the Great Devourer, not the "great candy ass pansy", which suggests that they go around DEVOURING stuff.

The way that the name "The Great Devourer" is spoken with such awe affords the Tyranid race an almost Godlike significance - almost like they are an elemental force within the Universe itself.

The theory that they are running from something doesn't really seem like anything more than Fanboy one-upmanship, and quite frankly is super lame, destroying what is cool about the Tyranids, and replacing it with nothing tangible.

But, there are also references in old BL novels to finding the remains of strange creatures from previous galaxies that the Tyranids had eaten aboard Tyranid hive vessels.

DantesInferno
19-09-2007, 23:51
Well, alot of it is context.

They are called the Great Devourer, not the "great candy ass pansy", which suggests that they go around DEVOURING stuff.

The way that the name "The Great Devourer" is spoken with such awe affords the Tyranid race an almost Godlike significance - almost like they are an elemental force within the Universe itself.

We're going to get into one of our old "significance of naming" debates, I see. Who calls the Tyranids "the Great Devourer" anyway, and why should we take their word for it? Besides, they've been doing enough Devouring since they arrived in this galaxy to warrant the name "the Great Devourer".


The theory that they are running from something doesn't really seem like anything more than Fanboy one-upmanship, and quite frankly is super lame, destroying what is cool about the Tyranids, and replacing it with nothing tangible.

It's just a theory. I think we have somewhat different ideas about what makes the Tyranids "cool". I don't think it's necessary for their appeal to have them definitely confirmed to have destroyed other galaxies - the horror of it is that no one knows.

Ktotwf
20-09-2007, 00:05
We're going to get into one of our old "significance of naming" debates, I see. Who calls the Tyranids "the Great Devourer" anyway, and why should we take their word for it? Besides, they've been doing enough Devouring since they arrived in this galaxy to warrant the name "the Great Devourer".

The Great Devourer is like a poetic name for the Tyranid superorganism.

Alot of people call it the Great Devourer, I think, but the most important (in my mind at least) are the Eldar, who seem to refer to it as the Great Devourer and nothing else.

Maybe it is just a matter of personal interpretation, but the Eldar seem somewhat aware of the nature of the Tyranids - not that they could be like "They originated in this galaxy, on this planet" perse, but that the Tyranids as a force that devours all before it is not unknown to them.

"The Great Devourer" has such a mythological connotation to me...


It's just a theory. I think we have somewhat different ideas about what makes the Tyranids "cool". I don't think it's necessary for their appeal to have them definitely confirmed to have destroyed other galaxies - the horror of it is that no one knows.

Well, for me what I guess I like is simply the idea that they don't REALLY know, but there is an overwhelming sense of dread that what they are aren't some random space faring race, but something much huger and of much more import.

"Hey, who are these ****'s who showed up on our doorstep" isn't really as cool as the idea that the Tyranids are an elemental force inherent to the Universe, that they are completely independent of the galaxy and its politics, and that they are nigh on unstoppable (except for that faint glimmer of hope that is always there).

Its nice that the Tyranids are really the only element in Warhammer 40k that pulls back and gives you a wider sense of the cosmos.

Plus it is fun to have a force that could care less about the Emperor, the C'Tan, the War in Heaven, or the Chaos Gods.

DantesInferno
20-09-2007, 00:13
That's all fair enough. I was just trying to point out that there's no canonical "fact" which tells us that the Tyranids have definitely devoured other galaxies.

I'd be a bit careful about adopting the "mythological connotation" ideas as gospel - Tyranid Codices have always been written to evoke the idea of the Tyranids as an unstoppable force, but that doesn't necessarily make it the truth of the matter. I'm much more inclined to the position that we simply don't know.

Nargrakhan
20-09-2007, 00:50
Perhaps they left their old galaxy, not because they had devoured all the biomass in it, but because they're fleeing from something there :eek:

I always get lulz from that: so off the mark... IIRC, those few individuals who've "touched" the Hive Mind, only sense one thing: Hunger. Not fear. Not worry. Not fleeing. Just hunger. Insatiable, unending, painful, terrifying, beautiful, hunger... Tyranids don't run from anything... they just feed... Feed. Feed. Feed. Pure and simple. :)

Ktotwf
20-09-2007, 00:50
That's all fair enough. I was just trying to point out that there's no canonical "fact" which tells us that the Tyranids have definitely devoured other galaxies.

"A case in point is to observe the degree of intergration of the Tyranid's symbiote weapons. At first these were relativly crude and were carried and employed, however distastefully, by the creatures that used them like a gun or a sword. In later encouters Tyranids have exhibited, more and more frequently, weaponry meshed directly into the creatures carrying them. Now it has become impossible to tell where the Tyranid warrior ends and its weapon symbiotes begin. I think we can be assured that the Norn Queens will continue to work tirelessly towards more and more perfectly adapted for killing the inhabitants of this galaxy just as they have in others before ours. Simply put, over the coming centuries we may be out-evolved to the point of extinction."

Codex Tyranid 4th Edition p. 5



I'd be a bit careful about adopting the "mythological connotation" ideas as gospel - Tyranid Codices have always been written to evoke the idea of the Tyranids as an unstoppable force, but that doesn't necessarily make it the truth of the matter. I'm much more inclined to the position that we simply don't know.

I agree- 40k works best when it is a throwdown between all the races, on more or less equal terms.

One has to remember that the Codices are there to sell you the army, and as such, they are always going to hype the armies to the max. If everything the Codices said was true, then the CSM's are going to rip the Emperor off the Golden Throne, the Tyranids are going to devour everything, the Necrons are going to enslave the human race, the Eldar are going to have a resurgence and kill of all Mon'Keigh, and the Imperial Guard and Space Marines are going to hold strong against all possible threats. :cool:

To "doom" the galaxy by saying that the Necrons or Tyranids are invincible is to cheapen the setting, IMHO, despite the fact that there are no shortage of Nid and Necron fanboys who love to say "OMGZORZ, teh Imperium is dooomzed!"

The point is that it is ETERNAL WAR.

Gwwwargh
20-09-2007, 00:56
ktotwf dont forget the green tide one gaint ass warboss from who the hell knows where will unite all the orks and overun the enemy...

sry i just felt left out is all

DantesInferno
20-09-2007, 00:58
"A case in point is to observe the degree of intergration of the Tyranid's symbiote weapons. At first these were relativly crude and were carried and employed, however distastefully, by the creatures that used them like a gun or a sword. In later encouters Tyranids have exhibited, more and more frequently, weaponry meshed directly into the creatures carrying them. Now it has become impossible to tell where the Tyranid warrior ends and its weapon symbiotes begin. I think we can be assured that the Norn Queens will continue to work tirelessly towards more and more perfectly adapted for killing the inhabitants of this galaxy just as they have in others before ours. Simply put, over the coming centuries we may be out-evolved to the point of extinction."

Codex Tyranid 4th Edition p. 5

According to Magos Biologis Alder Garrick. Whilst Imperial Adeptus Mechanicus members may be fairly knowledgeable in their fields (this guy's is biology, roughly speaking), they certainly don't know much about other galaxies. This guy is either guessing or using a rhetorical flourish to make his point.


I agree- 40k works best when it is a throwdown between all the races, on more or less equal terms.

One has to remember that the Codices are there to sell you the army, and as such, they are always going to hype the armies to the max. If everything the Codices said was true, then the CSM's are going to rip the Emperor off the Golden Throne, the Tyranids are going to devour everything, the Necrons are going to enslave the human race, the Eldar are going to have a resurgence and kill of all Mon'Keigh, and the Imperial Guard and Space Marines are going to hold strong against all possible threats. :cool:

To "doom" the galaxy by saying that the Necrons or Tyranids are invincible is to cheapen the setting, IMHO, despite the fact that there are no shortage of Nid and Necron fanboys who love to say "OMGZORZ, teh Imperium is dooomzed!"

The point is that it is ETERNAL WAR.

I wouldn't necessarily agree that all the races have to be on more or less equal terms. The Tau, for instance, are not a galactic power on anywhere near the level that the Imperium is. The setting is not necessarily eternal war - one race may well win eventually. At this stage though, we simply don't know enough to say for sure.

All I'm suggesting is that people should be familiar with the tendency of Codices to provide an inbuilt "spin" on the background material, and therefore treat them with some caution when trying to present the "objective truth".

Ktotwf
20-09-2007, 01:02
I wouldn't necessarily agree that all the races have to be on more or less equal terms. The Tau, for instance, are not a galactic power on anywhere near the level that the Imperium is. The setting is not necessarily eternal war - one race may well win eventually. At this stage though, we simply don't know enough to say for sure.

But the story isn't moving forward, we will never know what happens, and as such, for all real intents and purposes it is Eternal War, because, well, it will never end.

As I was trying to say, and you simply restated to be contrarian, yes, every race has reason to believe that they could win and survive (this is what I meant by "on equal terms", not that every race was just as powerful as the other. Humanity is clearly the most powerful race, otherwise the setting would make no sense)

DantesInferno
20-09-2007, 01:26
As I was trying to say, and you simply restated to be contrarian, yes, every race has reason to believe that they could win and survive (this is what I meant by "on equal terms", not that every race was just as powerful as the other. Humanity is clearly the most powerful race, otherwise the setting would make no sense)

I'm not sure how I was meant to get that from "on equal terms".

Even so, every race doesn't believe in an equal amount that they can win. Many of the Eldar are decidedly more pessimistic than, say, Orks.

Furthermore, every race doesn't have equal reasons to believe that they could win and survive. The Tau might believe that they've got a chance to be a galactic empire, but it seems that their chances are fairly remote.

I don't think I'm just being contrary, I think I'm actually saying something substantially different to what you are. There isn't a sense of "fair play" going on in the 40k universe - that all races have equal chances of success, equally believe in their success, or even have equal grounds for believing in their success.

Iracundus
20-09-2007, 01:37
Biology takes into effect cost vs. effort calculations through the effects of natural selection. Inefficiencies are outcompeted by the more efficient options. Organisms on Earth make many choices that after detailed scientific analysis have proven to be the most efficient, even when the organism in question has no ability to consciously analyze such.

The Tyranids are biology and evolution gone berserk and have always cared about efficiency. Read the 3rd ed. Codex on their target selection progress, which is based either on Genestealer cult signals or on spectrographic analysis of stars and choosing those stars most likely to have thriving biospheres. They deliberately preferentially target worlds rich in life both for their pre-processed biomass and also for the availability of new genetic information to absorb. They don't go after dead uninhabited worlds, even though theoretically the raw materials of such worlds could with energy input from stars or other means still be processed into organic matter.

When there are easy pickings for the taking, or at least big return for big investment, there's no point to go after poor return targets let alone poor return targets that put up a fight. If there were no other choices, then the Necrons would probably be attacked but they're far down on the priority list compared to the swarming worlds of humanity and Orks. The Tyranids are making the same choices real world predators make. Real predators pick off the slower or weaker prey preferentially before taking on those that are strong and fit and able to fight back, or those that offer too little value for the effort (things like porcupines or tortoises for example).

fwacho
20-09-2007, 06:57
I always get lulz from that: so off the mark... IIRC, those few individuals who've "touched" the Hive Mind, only sense one thing: Hunger. Not fear. Not worry. Not fleeing. Just hunger. Insatiable, unending, painful, terrifying, beautiful, hunger... Tyranids don't run from anything... they just feed... Feed. Feed. Feed. Pure and simple. :)

I have two young kids. the most common words I hear are "I'm hungry". This my be turned into "I, AM, Hungry" The tyranid hive mind appears to me like a young child. It is only concerned with meeting it's most basic need(s) (Maslow, anybody), hunger / sustinance. Childern grow up, and as the hivemind learns it may decide it has other needs such as security (this one seems to be already learned and feeds into the hunger motive.) As it learns of new "needs" it might adapt noticably (aka providing for future hunger, and avoidance of suffering).

"I' AM" The Hive mind seems most aware that it exists. and it seeks to continue it's existence via feeding / providing security.
A greater question exists as to weather each hive fleet is a singular organism or is merely a part of the whole. (ie. I live in the US, but my body is composed of cells) It could be the hive fleets are siblings, or maybe they are simply cells in a larger whole, or they could even be fratricidal siblings willing to aid /steal from each other.

Would two hive fleets fight over the same biomass? (If they did then a lot of the above questions would be answered)

The above directly effects their dealings with the necrons. If all together they are a single organism then the necrons woudl be in very immediate danger once the Hivemind realized what it was dealing with. (althoguh if hunger is it's only thought then the nids are in very serious danger of being strategically anniallated in the long run.

If however the Nid's Hive fleets are siblings. then (and I reference growing up with brothers) they woudl most definately go for the largest, and easiest portions first before their siblings could get there. And being the biggest sibling means you probably get to eat the others, unless they've somehow become more clever... This would mean the necrons would likely be the last race they would trun thier attention on, unless the necrons picked on them first and forced them to battle.

If I remember my reading correctly, then the Nid Hivefleets attack in different ways using diferent tactics. The fact that they are adopting our galaxy's methods and weapon designs suggests they are relatively young (Or they would already have better stuff). I'll toss my vote the sibling route. They are seeds sent out from a parent unit in another galaxy (probably half devoured before they left).

Iracundus
20-09-2007, 07:47
Having different tactics or variation doesn't necessarily mean fleets are individuals. Different tissues and cells of the body are morphologically quite different and have drastically different behaviors but they are still part of the one organism.

The Tyranids use complex means to achieve simple goals. For example, their invention of Biovores and other larger creatures fulfilling the role of artillery was after observing the races of the Milky Way galaxy, not simply from genetics. Even if the Biovores are derived from Ork genetic material, there is nothing inherent in an Ork's genes that says "field artillery" is the way for them to be used. How the Tyranids employ absorbed genetic material to create new creatures seems to have an element of decision making involved, though not necessarily by the Tyranids as individuals. Whether or not the Hive Mind has or ever will have more complex motives is unclear. It is possible it is aware that it feeds in order to multiply in order to feed, ad infinitum, and thinks that is a perfectly valid reason and the whole purpose of existence. I personally favor no more complex motives, as it keeps the Tyranids as a force of nature, of nightmare evolution creating a super organism against which the hopes and ideals of the other 40K races are brushed aside as meaningless.

Also two fleets fighting over biomass again does not necessarily mean they are separate. Damaged cells and tissues of a body are routinely replaced, either dying off by themselves or absorbed by the rest of the organism such as via its immune system, yet this doesn't mean the organism has suddenly become two.

The verdict remains in doubt because GW has tossed evidence on both sides, at the same time in the same edition, even within the same Codex.

pookie
20-09-2007, 08:31
@ fwacho - Nid Fleets will fight over a plaent - with the winning fleet becomeing stronger as it absorbs the better element of the 'enemy' fleet.

i like some of the points you have put forward, never thought of it in that way before.

Biomass Denial
20-09-2007, 10:39
Tyranids dont just strip biomass they strip topsoil, minerals, water and atmosphere. A tyranoformed world is described as having its diametre reduced by a third.

Adra
20-09-2007, 11:18
yeah its also worth pointing out that both the ctan and the nids will fight each other...

...only orks will win...one way or another...:p

Gwwwargh
20-09-2007, 22:24
yeah its also worth pointing out that both the ctan and the nids will fight each other...

...only orks will win...one way or another...:p

Yep your right... but thats my highly biased opinion

MadDogMike
20-09-2007, 23:16
yeah its also worth pointing out that both the ctan and the nids will fight each other...

...only orks will win...one way or another...:p

Gotta say this for the orks, from their perspective they already ARE winners. After all, galaxy full of enemies to fight and constant war isn't a bad thing from their perspective; they're the only ones who are probably perfectly happy with the state of the 40K universe as is. Kinda hard to beat that :D.

Shiakou
20-09-2007, 23:19
There's something that bothers me about the supposed evolutionary superiority of the Tyranids.

If you compare it to actual Evolution as we observe it on Earth, natural organisms are far less efficient, but more adaptable, than their artificial counterparts. Compare an eye to a camera, legs to wheels, or a heart to a pump, and it's obvious that if pure efficiency was the issue, technology would win over organic biology. Consider also that where Evolution has taken a billion years to form the things it has today, we have taken only ten thousand years to modify, copy, and even improve on those things. Even multiplied a thousandfold, evolution, unless it's directed by a shaper, simply cannot compete with the speed of technological advance.

Hence the following conclusions;

1. A biological unit will always be less efficient but more adaptable than it's technological counterpart. A claw will always be less efficient than a sword, but the claw can grow back, and doesn't need a sentient outside force to form.
2. The lack of adaptibility in technological weapons can be offset by their organic, hence adaptable, users. A claw is dangerous, an organic and adaptable Tyranid with a claw is deadly. A sword is deadly already, a sword in the hands of an organic and adaptable Space Marine is almost certainly fatal to almost anything.
3. Organics as a group are tough. While a dozen Leman Russ tanks may last for a thousand years, they will eventually crumble unless maintained or replaced by a factory. By comparison, Tyranids can breed, and so maintain their numbers without need for complicated external factors almost indefinitely. Of course, a factory can simply research better, faster, tougher tanks, and in extreme cases, a shaping facility can create biotechnological "tanks" (Imperial Squiggoths anyone?) based on "reverse engineering" Tyranids.

Bear in mind that while these conclusions may be valid, that doesn't mean they're true, only that they're plausible/probable outcomes.

DantesInferno
20-09-2007, 23:29
There's something that bothers me about the supposed evolutionary superiority of the Tyranids.

If you compare it to actual Evolution as we observe it on Earth, natural organisms are far less efficient, but more adaptable, than their artificial counterparts. Compare an eye to a camera, legs to wheels, or a heart to a pump, and it's obvious that if pure efficiency was the issue, technology would win over organic biology. Consider also that where Evolution has taken a billion years to form the things it has today, we have taken only ten thousand years to modify, copy, and even improve on those things. Even multiplied a thousandfold, evolution, unless it's directed by a shaper, simply cannot compete with the speed of technological advance.

The problem with Tyranids, of course, is that there may well be a sentience which shapes their evolution. It really raises the question whether the adaptations the Tyranids have brought forth are really the product of "evolution" at all.

Shiakou
20-09-2007, 23:37
The problem with Tyranids, of course, is that there may well be a sentience which shapes their evolution. It really raises the question whether the adaptations the Tyranids have brought forth are really the product of "evolution" at all.

True, true. Personally, I prefer that Sentient Hive Mind idea, over the theory that "Extreme Evolution trumps technology because it's organic, lol!"

DantesInferno
21-09-2007, 00:43
True, true. Personally, I prefer that Sentient Hive Mind idea, over the theory that "Extreme Evolution trumps technology because it's organic, lol!"

I find this line of thought very interesting indeed, because it raises questions about just what it would be like to be the Hive Mind, the Chaos Gods, or any of the other giant warp entities we know.

How do the swirling currents of the warp give rise to consciousness as we know it? Is there some sort of special interaction in the warp which gives some gods individuality and consciousness? How do the emotions and souls of sentient life in the physical universe affect the nature of consciousness of Khorne? Does Khorne have "qualia" (could you imagine what it is like to be Khorne?)? Does Tzeentch "think"? Where would these "thoughts" exist? Are the internal processes which occur in the human brain during conscious thought anything like what happens in the case of a Warp God?

The Hive Mind is even more interesting. Is it really a Warp God in the sense we know? Sure, the Shadow in the Warp shows that the Tyranids have some impact on the warp, but is that the Hive Mind? I'm really tempted by the idea that the Hive Mind is not really a warp consciousness at all (assuming these can even exist, see above), but actually exists in the material world as a massively complicated "China Brain".

(To explain the "China Brain" example: The human brain is composed of a massive number of neurons. Neurons are basically little switches, which send signals to other neurons and switch on and off based on the signals they receive [oversimplifying here, but it's the general gist]. Human consciousness is basically produced by the interaction of these 10^11 neurons in the brain, as far as we can tell. Now, imagine you had a country with 10^11 citizens, and you gave each one a mobile phone [you'd actually need a country 100 times the size of modern china]. Each citizen is given a set of instructions, mobile numbers to ring after receiving certain calls, etc. Now you start off the system by ringing a few people and causing the interactions of mobiles in an analogous way to the interactions of neurons in the brain. Now our massive system is interacting in the same way as a human brain, so it seems possible that there's consciousness there. But where is it?! What would it be like to be such an entity)

If you imagine that the organisms of the Tyranid race communicate with each other in an analogous way to the neurons in a human brain (on a galactic scale), would the Hive Mind exist as a consciousness in the material universe?

Ktotwf
21-09-2007, 00:46
I see the Hive Mind not as a separate consciousness from the Tyranids that guides their actions, but a Hive Mind produced by the mass of Tyranids' needs and desires - it isn't intelligent like you could have a conversation with it.

The best way to look at the Tyranids is just to see them all as cells in one gigantic body, and the Hive Mind is the brain, but the Tyranid superorganism is still an animal.

Hive Mind 33
21-09-2007, 00:57
the hive mind is not from the warp. it is what "birthed" genestealers(the only type of nid the hive mind created.) The hive mind has a huge warp signature that is the only way it influence the warp. The other organisms were brought in latter.

DantesInferno
21-09-2007, 01:03
I see the Hive Mind not as a separate consciousness from the Tyranids that guides their actions, but a Hive Mind produced by the mass of Tyranids' needs and desires - it isn't intelligent like you could have a conversation with it.

The best way to look at the Tyranids is just to see them all as cells in one gigantic body, and the Hive Mind is the brain, but the Tyranid superorganism is still an animal.

Well.....humans are still animals, and you can have intelligent conversations with us.


the hive mind is not from the warp. it is what "birthed" genestealers(the only type of nid the hive mind created.) The hive mind has a huge warp signature that is the only way it influence the warp. The other organisms were brought in latter.

:eyebrows: Did you mean "the other organisms were brought in later?" You know that they've quite possibly come from another galaxy? They didn't just pop out of nowhere, they've been travelling for some time.

Ktotwf
21-09-2007, 01:07
Well.....humans are still animals, and you can have intelligent conversations with us.


First of all, that you could even compare human perfection to a disgusting Xenos race is odious above and beyond even your usual heresies and lies.

Second of all, what I am trying to say is that the Hive Mind is not a "sentient" force that is "guiding" the Tyranids from the outside - in a sense using them or however you want to phrase it - the Hive Mind IS Tyranid - it is an amalgam of Tyranid consciousness and desire.

DantesInferno
21-09-2007, 01:13
Second of all, what I am trying to say is that the Hive Mind is not a "sentient" force that is "guiding" the Tyranids from the outside - in a sense using them or however you want to phrase it - the Hive Mind IS Tyranid - it is an amalgam of Tyranid consciousness and desire.

Can't it be both? If there's so much interaction going on between so many different organisms, isn't it possible that sentience emerges?

I suppose it depends whether you'd characterise human thought as guiding the human body "from the outside", or "using" the body to do stuff. That's not the natural way of talking about it for me, since I view consciousness as arising from internal processes within the human body, in particular within the brain.


First of all, that you could even compare human perfection to a disgusting Xenos race is odious above and beyond even your usual heresies and lies.

Ha. Ha. Ha. :evilgrin:

Eldar are more cognitively capable than humans, you know.

Hive Mind 33
21-09-2007, 01:27
First of all, that you could even compare human perfection to a disgusting Xenos race is odious above and beyond even your usual heresies and lies.

Second of all, what I am trying to say is that the Hive Mind is not a "sentient" force that is "guiding" the Tyranids from the outside - in a sense using them or however you want to phrase it - the Hive Mind IS Tyranid - it is an amalgam of Tyranid consciousness and desire.

But thay don't have desire in fact they have no souls. The hive mind is a Tryanid no doubt about that. It uses the warp to exert its will over the other lesser nids through Synapse creatures(its so powerful it can make even the most wounded nid stand.) If it was an amalgam for the tyranid "desire" after all the big bugs die(excluding carnifex) they would be able to keep on fighting insted of losing all touch with the Hive Mind.

stormblade
21-09-2007, 02:11
Can't it be both? If there's so much interaction going on between so many different organisms, isn't it possible that sentience emerges?

I suppose it depends whether you'd characterise human thought as guiding the human body "from the outside", or "using" the body to do stuff. That's not the natural way of talking about it for me, since I view consciousness as arising from internal processes within the human body, in particular within the brain.

Well, other animals on earth have brains but only humans are conscious(except maybe dolphins). Anyway being conscious does not mean solving problems it means having the ability to question and ponder on issues that do not pose anything of immediate necessity.(Like discussing things on this forum- no animal would waste its tame on this) ;)





Ha. Ha. Ha. :evilgrin:

Eldar are more cognitively capable than humans, you know.

- Prove it.!!

DantesInferno
21-09-2007, 02:41
Well, other animals on earth have brains but only humans are conscious(except maybe dolphins). Anyway being conscious does not mean solving problems it means having the ability to question and ponder on issues that do not pose anything of immediate necessity.(Like discussing things on this forum- no animal would waste its tame on this)

Well, on a very basic level, consciousness just refers to the ability to perceive the relationship between oneself and one's environment. For instance, you can guess at what it might be like to be a cat. They can interact with their environment, recognise people, feel pain, etc.

This can be distinguished from self-consciousness, or self-awareness, which refers to the explicit understanding that you, yourself, exist as an individual entity. This is the sort of thing you see referenced in Descartes' famous line "cogito ergo sum", and the work of Locke and modern philosophers of mind.

Now, we're pretty sure that most animals don't have any sense of self-awareness (although as you can imagine this is pretty tough to show). So, what's the difference between humans and other animals with lesser cognitive capabilities? Our brains are made out of the same basic stuff, ours is just arranged in a far more complicated way. This leads to the idea that it's the arrangement, and internal connections of the "stuff" which is important, not the actual chemicals it's made out of (imagine having the neurons in your brain swapped one at a time with silicon switches which fulfilled exactly the same role).

So if it's just the connections which are important, presumably you could design, for example, computers with the complexity of a human brain who could function in a similar way - AI!

Along the same lines, if individual Tyranid organisms were arranged in such a way and communicating with each other as to "mimic" a human brain (although the ability obviously would have developed independently from contact with humans), would that be enough to produce consciousness?

Shiakou
21-09-2007, 03:15
Even then, is it not documented that chimpanzees and other animals use simple tools to satisfy their needs?

Hence, an ability to consciously assess problems may not be strictly immediate (me hungry! get food now!) or distantly abstract (hmm, these fictional creatures are interesting to the point of obsession!). Perhaps an intermediate state can be founded, the basis of which is immidiate need, but able to see a broader view so that tactical/strategic considerations can be taken into effect. For the Tyranid Hive Mind, the immediate need/problem is food, and the strategic considerations may be the production of creatures which can get food faster, ie. kill more fleshies. (I want food. Food is in fleshies. Fleshies have sticks that hurt and fire that burns. Make own sticks and fire. Use against fleshies. ???? Profit!!!)

El_Machinae
21-09-2007, 20:12
Many animals probably have a lot more self-awareness than we give them credit for. They also have this self-awareness in pretty evolutionarily separated species (i.e., the birds and the apes), so it's a pretty hardy construct.

I also think that a lot of our consciousness comes from our society. We have a lot of things that are smart and 'like us'. And we each help each other become more self-aware, too. Even when I was in diapers, my parents partook of activities to teach me about myself and to teach me how I was distinguished from the world.