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Ktotwf
14-09-2007, 03:58
...instead of Abhumans?

I feel like it would have given greater leeway in terms of background development, and giving them a unique feel, if they were their own race, and not just a subrace of the Imperium.

Hellebore
14-09-2007, 04:07
I believe that's what the Demiurg are intended to represent.

I think the squats work as a different side to humanity - rather than trying to shoehorn dwarfs into space.

When I wanted to reimagine the squats, I started from the idea that they believed themselves to be purer humans than the Imperium.

So from that angle they become much more interesting, and not just dwarf abhumans.

Hellebore

DantesInferno
14-09-2007, 04:11
IMO, the fact that the Squats were Abhumans wasn't really the problem. The two main issues were these:

a) They were just a straight copy of the dwarf-archetype into 40k. Short: check. Bearded: check. Stubborn: check. Miners: check. Down-to-earth attitude: check. And so on. It just seemed like they weren't initially conceived properly, so all the later background on them was on shaky foundations.

b) They had a really stupid name: the Squats. Unfortunately, that was probably the killer blow for their race. The archetype could have been rescued with a decent name.

Hellebore
14-09-2007, 04:29
IMO, the fact that the Squats were Abhumans wasn't really the problem. The two main issues were these:

a) They were just a straight copy of the dwarf-archetype into 40k. Short: check. Bearded: check. Stubborn: check. Miners: check. Down-to-earth attitude: check. And so on. It just seemed like they weren't initially conceived properly, so all the later background on them was on shaky foundations.

b) They had a really stupid name: the Squats. Unfortunately, that was probably the killer blow for their race. The archetype could have been rescued with a decent name.

What do you think of the name Varyngr? It's what the general concensus in the Death of the Squats thread likes.

Hellebore

Ktotwf
14-09-2007, 04:30
It doesn't make sense...why did "Elves-in-Space" work so well, and "Dwarves in Space" fall flat on its face?

Hellebore
14-09-2007, 04:37
It doesn't make sense...why did "Elves-in-Space" work so well, and "Dwarves in Space" fall flat on its face?

Well, I think it's more to do with the fact that the eldar only LOOK like an elf. Their society, way of war, and background is much different. Sure they're long-lived, sure they're psychic/magic masters, but they're also living a life of denile in order to stop the chaos god they created in their ignorance, from eating their souls. They use a method of construction that elves do not.

I think it was more that the squats didn't really develop beyond being 'just' dwarfs with guns. If their strongholds where in a mountain range rather than across starsystems they would be almost indistinguishable.

The eldar developed their own design asthetic unlike elves, whilst the squats just used imperial equipment. They sort of piggybacked them, and weren't very distinct.

it was only when they got to EPIC where they had their own unique war engines did they become more interesting, but as the basis for the EPIC list was 40k, and it started to fall apart, the EPIC list collapsed onto it.

If you go through the Death of the Squats thread you'll find many interesting ideas on how they could have been made more interesting than 'just' dwarfs.

Hellebore

Ktotwf
14-09-2007, 04:41
Well, ask this question then: What is FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with transplanting Fantasy races into a Sci-Fi setting?

I mean, I don't really think that has ever been done before...?

Hellebore
14-09-2007, 04:49
I don't think there IS anything wrong necessarily, but GW started with fantasy races and wanted to diverge from them. As the squats didn't diverge enough, they were dropped.

If they just transplanted races entirely across from Warhammer Fantasy, then they would have been just dwarfs, using runic magic and more advanced forms of technology.

The elves would just have lots of magic - I reckon they'd still use bows, but souped up with magic, so that they could hit from a long distance and penetrate etc.

GW decided that rather than having just fantasy races in a future setting, they'd take the ARCHETYPES of those races and do something different.

It doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just what GW wanted to do.

Hellebore

DantesInferno
14-09-2007, 04:53
What do you think of the name Varyngr? It's what the general concensus in the Death of the Squats thread likes.


It's much better than a name which, at its best, evokes some sort of unpleasant aerobic activity, and at worst reminds people (well, at least me!) of going to the toilet outdoors. Mind you, I think just about anything would have been better than "Squats".


Well, ask this question then: What is FUNDAMENTALLY wrong with transplanting Fantasy races into a Sci-Fi setting?

I mean, I don't really think that has ever been done before...?

Like Hellebore and myself have said, it was the transplanting without any unique redeeming features which makes it a bit bland. I mean, almost all 40k players have been exposed to generic fantasy archetypes before they pick up 40k (say, LOTR, Warcraft, and so on). If the 40k race is basically the same as previous concepts, there isn't really much to excite the imagination or stimulate the creativity.

The Eldar flourished where the Squats died largely because they were distinguished enough from "Elves-in-space" to get off the ground and establish themselves.