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Stingray_tm
14-09-2007, 23:12
When i think about the simplifications of the Chaos Codex, i think the logical consequence of a combined Inquisition Codex would be this:

WARNING: This is NOT a rumour. It is just me speculating.

HQ
- Inquisitor
Must choose Ordo Xenos, Ordo Hereticus or Ordo Malleus. Can be upgraded to an Inquisitor Lord (that costs a lot more, but counts as an Inquisitor of all three Ordos)
- Grey Knight Captain
- Cannoness

Elite
- Assasin (new rules, with a lot of upgrades to make different temple assasins, but not as distinctive as before. Maybe even Ordo specific and limited Assasins)
- Grey Knight Terminators (can only be taken with an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor or Grey Knight Captain present)
- some new Adeptus Mechanicus unit. (Super-Servitors?) (can only be taken with an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor)

Troops
- Inquisitorial Stormtroopers
- Grey Knights (can only be taken with an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor or Grey Knight Captain present)
- Sisters of Battle (can only be taken with an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor or a Cannoness present)
- Death Guard (rules similiar to the WD article. can only be taken with an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor present)

Fast Attack
- some new Adeptus Mechanicus unit (that can be taken by anyone)
- Seraphim (can only be taken with an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor or a Cannoness present)
- Land Speeder Squadron

Heavy Support
- Dreadnought (new model with Witchhunter, Alienhunter and Daemonhunter specific parts but same rules)
- Land Raider (Crusader)
- Leman Russ

Transports:
Rhino, Chimera, Land Raider, Land Raider Crusader

So the results would be:
- All three Ordos can be combined or you can go themed for only one Ordo
- a lot of units from the Deamonhunter and Witchhunter codex would dissappear (there is just not enough place)

What do you think? Realistic?

(Just for the record: I would HATE such a Codex, but i honestly think, it could be possible. A combined codex certainly would not result in adding Ordo Xenos units into the mix without losing a lot of the other Ordo stuff :( )

Stingray_tm
14-09-2007, 23:18
Oops. I don't mean Death Guard but this other Space Marine chapter, whose name i can't remember. I mean, come on, they all are some Angels of Death or Guardians of Angels or whatever :D

Edit: Death Watch! I knew, it was something with Death ;)

bertcom1
14-09-2007, 23:26
Death Watch. You mean Death Watch.

The actual content of the Inquisition codexes is quite small, and they use a lot of space for scenarios and adversaries rules. There is quite a lot of duplication as well.

A combined codex could be done in 80 pages without cutting lots of things out.

marv335
14-09-2007, 23:38
I'd drop the landspeeders and leman russ from the list, but not bad.

Frep
14-09-2007, 23:46
Well as sad as I am to say it this looks almost exactly what GW will make given their current design of codexes, personally I think that sentinals are more like than landspeeders though

spacemonkey
14-09-2007, 23:56
Similar thread like this was brought up last month, had some interesting discussion:
http://warseer.com/forums/40k-general-discussion/97941-codex-inquisition.html?highlight=Codex+Inquisition

Alessander
15-09-2007, 00:33
With the direction GW is going with the recent Chaos and Eldar codeces, I highly doubt there will be specialized Inquisitors. Just a generic "Inqusitor Lord" and "Inquisitor" army list option. The wargear loadout you choose will dictate which Ordo he/she is. Maybe not even that. If you have a lot of Grey Knights in your army, it's a Mallues inquisitor, if a lot of sisters a Hereticus one. No difference to game rules, just a cosmetic name change.

GW seems to have taken the lazy route. "We won't give you the fluff-based options, you do it yourself by how you model it".

ctsteel
15-09-2007, 01:08
I can't imagine them taking away the sisters' heavy options (no exorcist? no heavy weapon purgation/retributor squads?). Surely you'd have one for each at least.

And personally can't imagine a WH dreadnought (they have no access to such tech). Deathwatch and GK would though. Unless the term becomes a generic one to represent Penitent Engines, but that just feels weird to me as I wouldn't imagine a Pen Engine as having the same abilities as a marine dreadnought.

Landspeeders might be possible if they were Deathwatch only?

I don't think AdMech would play as big a part, since the AdMech are independent of the Inquisition, and while Inquisitors may have servitors etc, they wouldn't always be working with the admech (even ordo xenos) as the admech have their own explorator teams with their own private agendas that wouldn't want anyone watching. Perhaps without the admech branding and just call them weapon servitors or such.

I don't see why all of the existing units couldn't combine as is - though the chaos codex changes imply that won't be likely.

Ktotwf
15-09-2007, 01:12
I'd prefer the possibility of an all Deathwatch army. I would be ALL ABOUT that.

Tehkonrad
15-09-2007, 03:07
that would be rather awesome but more OX stuff with deathwatch termis and some kind of awesome ordo xenos tank

jhon
15-09-2007, 03:58
things that all of get :
access to all kinds of troops
access to all kinds of transport
obit stike [even no every one use it]
access to all kinds of HQ
Assasin
and here is things you wont get unless you fill in one hq and two troops of the same fuction :
gray knight termie , deamon host ,gray knight dread [ deamon hunter]
exoictist , penitent engine , Seraphim , imolator [wtich hunter]
death watch kill team, etc....[ xeno hunter ]

Firstandonly14
15-09-2007, 04:00
I can see that happening, as stated above I think it would kind of like the Chaos codex now.

More deathwatch would be nice, but Ordo Xeno inquisitors will be really cool :D

Sovereign
15-09-2007, 06:18
The problem is that you have 3 different Inquisitional Ordos, each with a Chamber Militant:
- Ordo Malleus Daemonhunters (Grey Knights)
- Ordo Hereticus Witchhunters (Sisters of Battle)
- Ordo Xenos Alienhunters (Deathwatch)

And on top of that, you have Allies:
- Ordo Sicarus (Assassins)
- Space Marines (no Sisters of Battle)
- Imperial Guard.

Even ignoring the whole Radical/Puritan issue by pretending that Radicals don't exist, you're trying to make a monster combo / non-combo list. And of these, the Inquisition and WH Sisters needs to be playable / complete as a "pure" standalone list.

So really, the whole thing is a royal mess, which is why Alienhunters never got off the ground. But if it did, I'd guess it would follow the current Chaos Codex and end up something like this:

HQ
Inq Lord
DW Commander
GK Terminator Captain
SoB Cannoness

Elite
Inq Inquisitor, Assassins, Death Cultists, Arco-Flagellents, Penitent Engine
DW Kill Team, Rangers
GK Terminators, Dreadnought
SoB Celestians, Dominions, Repentia

Troops
Inq Stormtroopers (Arbites)
DW Marines
GK Marines
SoB Sisters
++ IG AF, Platoon, Conscripts (Militia)
++ SM Tacticals

Transport
Inq Rhino, Chimera, Land Raider
SoB Immolator

Fast
GK Deep Strikers
SoB Seraphim
++ IG Sentinel, Hellhound
++ SM Landspeeders, Bikes, Assault Marines

Heavy
Inq Orbital Strike
GK Puragators
SoB Retributor, Exorcist
++ IG Leman Russ
++ SM Devastators, Predators

Following current practice, the 0-1s come off the Inducted forces.

:D

Alessander
15-09-2007, 06:29
If the new Inq codex covers all the Ordos, I foresee that the inducted Marines and Guard will go out the window and not be in the codex. You'll find a little snippet that Inquisitors have been known to command entire chapters and platoons, and a referral to Apocalypse rules if you want to mix and match.

Born Again
15-09-2007, 08:30
Oh please, please, don't stick AdMech into an Inquisitor list! This would ruin so much for me.

As far as I know, the AdMech and Inquisition don't even get on that well... they shouldn't be in the list. AdMech really do deserve their own codex, but I doubt we'll see one for MANY years to come.

I'll have a go at this... but this is all VERY rough.

HQ:
-Inquisitor. Can be upgraded to OM, OH or OX, which affects the following...

-Retinue for Inquisitor. Depending on alignment, can include things like daemonhosts, chirurgeons (think that's spelled right), captured aliens etc, or be generic. Also a small selection of Ordo specific wargear, like daemon sword or book of daemonic names for OM, holy water or something similar for OH, you get the idea.

-Grey Knight Captain. Self explanatory. Maybe Command Squad?

-Death Watch Captain. Just a SM captain, really, again with Command Squad.

Elites:
-Assassins. Keep the different temple alignments for 0-1, rest are Death Cult assassins.

-Grey Knight termies. land raider transport option. OM only.

-Death Watch termies. land raider transport option. OX only.

-Sisters Repentia. Maybe mix Arco-Flagellants into the one unit? OH only.

-Inducted Storm Troopers "strike teams". Give them deep strike and some special wargear to make them better than standard storm troopers.

Troops:
-Inducted Imperial Guard.

-Grey Knights. OM only.

-Death Watch. OX only.

-SoB. OH only.

-Inducted Storm Troopers. Just the normal ones, cheaper than the strike teams above and with no deep strike or special gear.

-Allied Space Marines, IN VERY LIMITED NUMBERS. I'm sure this alliance doesn't happen very often, outside of marines in the Deathwatch. I've basically included it coz I have a thing for the Exorcists chapter, which were created in a OM experiment :D

Fast Attack:
-SoB Seraphim. OH only.

-Inducted Sentinels.

-Deathwatch Land Speeders. OX only.

-Grey Knight Bikers. Come on, the idea of them zooming past cutting down daemons with their force weapons is a cool one. OM only.

Heavy Support
-Grey Knight/ Deathwatch Dreadnought. OM/ OX only.

-SoB Exorcist/ Immolator. OH only.

-Grey Knight/ Deathwatch Predator and varients, ie; Vindicator, whirlwind. OM/ OX only.

-SoB Retributors. OH only.

-SoB Penitent Engines. OH only.

This is all very rough, but it's a good place to start I think. Comments would be appreciated!

liggu
15-09-2007, 10:04
i was thinking that they could limit inq. to one HQ choice and it would work like this

HQ

GK grand master

SOB cannoness

DW captain or DW libby

inq. lord

inq lord MUST chose either

seal of the ordos xenos
seal of the ordos herectius
seal of the ordos malleus

may select items from <insert generic item list here ( power armour, carapace armour, bolter, bolt pistol, power weapon etc.)>

with seal of ordos xenos (s)he may select from these < fancy alienic items and weapons and trinkets list >

and same sort of thing for all other ordos eg. ordos malleus get fancy daemonic artifacts and super powered possesed uber swords and stuff

ELITES

GK terminators only with GK grand master

SOB repentia only with a cannoness

DW veterans only with DW commander or libby

assasins only with an inquisitor lord leading army

lower ranking inqisitors allowed in every army ordos chamber militant etc. as advisors etc.

TROOPS

SOB troopers only with ordo herectius inq. lords or with a cannoness
GK troopers only with ordo malleus inq. lords or with a grand master
DW kill team only with ordos xenos inq. lord or with a DW commander
0-2 inducted SM tactical squads for every army
inq. storm troopers every army

Fast attack

sentinel squadrons every aarmy
deepstriking GK only if army is led by ordo malleus or GK grand master
seraphims only for ordo herectius or SOB cannoness led armys
maybe infiltrating DW scouts ? for ordos xenos and DW armys
storm troopers in chimeras

HVY support

dreads for GK
whirlswinds ( or devastators ) for DW
exorxists for sob
acro flaggelents for every army
every army can also get different orbital bombardments:
medium str medium ap lots of large blast markers and an anty infantry
high str high ap no template as anti tank, just targets a certain squad or tank ( nasty IC killer)

transports

immolators
rhinos
chimeras
drop pods
land raiders

...so those are my thoughts

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 10:34
This is how I see the Inquisition being done.

HQ
Inquisitor Lord (pick which order they belong to and wargear is applied based upon the order)
Retinue (determined by the order the IL is with)
GK Hero (DH only)
Canonnes/Palatine (WH only)
DW Captain or Librarian (DW only)
Priests (All Ordos)

Elites
Inquisitor (Select Ordo)
GK Terminators (DH only)
Daemonhosts (DH only)
Sister Repentia (WH only)
Celestians (WH only)
Arco-flagellants (All Ordos if priest is taken)
DW Terminators (DW only)
DW Veterans (DW Only)
DW Dreadnought (DW Only)
Assassins (All Ordos if IL or I is taken)

Troops
GK (DH only)
DW Tactical/Scout (DW only)
Battle Sisters (WH only)
Storm Troopers (All lists)

Fast Attack
DW Assault Squad (DW only)
DW Landspeeder (DW only)
GK Terminators w/teleport homers (DH only)
Seraphim (WH only)
Dominions (WH only)

Heavy Support
GK Purgation Squad (DH only)
GK Dreadnought (DH only)
Land Raider (All Ordos when IL or Marines are present)
Land Raider Crusader (DH and DW only)
DW Predator (DW only)
Penitent Engines (All Ordos if priest is taken)
Exorcist (WH only if Adepta Sororitas is fielded)
Immolator (WH only if Adepta Sororitas is fielded)
Orbital Strikes (All Ordos only if IL is taken

Transports
Chimera (All Ordos if IL and Storm Troopers are taken)
Rhino (All Ordos)
Razorback (DW only)

Stingray_tm
15-09-2007, 11:50
You all seem to forget one thing. Almost every codex has about 20 unit types. Why do you think, GW would release a codex with 40 unit types, when it is their goal to streamline the Inquisiton? Otherwise they would keep their Deamonhunters and Witchhunters separated.

I am absolutely certain, that a Codex Inquisition would not mean: all units from Codex Daemonhunters + all units from Codex Witchhunters + NEW stuff for Alienhunters.

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 11:57
You all seem to forget one thing. Almost every codex has about 20 unit types. Why do you think, GW would release a codex with 40 unit types, when it is their goal to streamline the Inquisiton? Otherwise they would keep their Deamonhunters and Witchhunters separated.

I am absolutely certain, that a Codex Inquisition would not mean: all units from Codex Daemonhunters + all units from Codex Witchhunters + NEW stuff for Alienhunters.

Your list was missing key units from Sisters of Battle while favoring heavily the Marines. Also the lists in the two books are already streamlined for the most part, so the only thing that needs to be done is to incorporate them. To fully streamline all Inquisitional units would need to be made generic and allow a player to select which Ordo they want to play. Each Ordo has different units and that certain units cannot be used in conjunction with others like Adepta Sororitas cannot be used with Space Marines with the exception of GK. This leaves a huge gap in the army list for Sisters players while not having any affect upon GK or DW players.

Master Jeridian
15-09-2007, 12:02
You all seem to forget one thing. Almost every codex has about 20 unit types. Why do you think, GW would release a codex with 40 unit types, when it is their goal to streamline the Inquisiton? Otherwise they would keep their Deamonhunters and Witchhunters separated.


Because Codex Inquisition would allow 3-5 different armies to be built:

Sisters of Battle
Grey Knights
Deathwatch

Inquistorial Storm Troopers

IST's plus Allies

Their goal is to make money, and having all those army lists in one book rather than having to mass produce 2-3 different but with many duplicates books is smart business.
They apparently make the money on models far more than books, and these armies are rare as is- so it makes sense.

As other's have said, if you get the who can take what alliance system right then it is possible to create all the armies that exist now, whilst not duplicating the Inquisitor/Inquisitor Lord, Chimera, Rhino, Orbital Strike, IST's, etc across 2-3 books.


My fear is that GW considers an intricate web of what you can and can't take far too complicated as evidenced in Codex Chaos.

They are far more likely to throw all the units in and simply say take what you want, mix and match, theme it your damn self...we're too lazy too.

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 12:07
Because Codex Inquisition would allow 3-5 different armies to be built:

Sisters of Battle
Grey Knights
Deathwatch

Inquistorial Storm Troopers

IST's plus Allies

Their goal is to make money, and having all those army lists in one book rather than having to mass produce 2-3 different but with many duplicates books is smart business.
They apparently make the money on models far more than books, and these armies are rare as is- so it makes sense.

As other's have said, if you get the who can take what alliance system right then it is possible to create all the armies that exist now, whilst not duplicating the Inquisitor/Inquisitor Lord, Chimera, Rhino, Orbital Strike, IST's, etc across 2-3 books.


My fear is that GW considers an intricate web of what you can and can't take far too complicated as evidenced in Codex Chaos.

They are far more likely to throw all the units in and simply say take what you want, mix and match, theme it your damn self...we're too lazy too.

To make it even more simplified they could use a generic Marine and apply gear/abilities based upon Ordo. This would cut out the duplication of GK and DW marines.

Vet.Sister
15-09-2007, 13:29
Interesting how Born Again is the only poster including inducted IG. Which brings me to my idea for an addition, Planetary Defense Force. Remember these from the Armageddon Codex? Add them to theTroops section as an option for any Ordo. The only change I'd make, is to minimum squad size (20 instead of 10). And best of all, it still makes sense, y'know?
If they did this, then Inq. StormTroopers in the Troops slot could have the option to buy the Infiltrate ability (there by giving them some utility).

As for Land Speeders or Sentinels? I'd just be happy to NOT be forced into taking compulsory units to get the good stuff. (and I'm not talking about what kinda Inq. you have, more precisely, 2 Troops units!) :mad:

Master Jeridian
15-09-2007, 14:29
I'd just be happy to NOT be forced into taking compulsory units to get the good stuff.

So you'd be happy to have no restrictions or balance on the army list, to be able to take SM Tornados backed up by IG Leman Russ's with min IST Troops choices.

Other's prefer balance. Those restrictions are in place so that an Inquisition force doesn't get it better than an IG or SM army with the same units.

gitburna
15-09-2007, 14:41
Heres my take on an Inquisition Codex
Certain options could be restricted by requiring the relevant HQ choice, to avoid abuse. Ecclesiarchy would go into the Inquisitors retinue.

HQ
Grey Knight Hero (grey Knight Terminators retinue)
Cannoness (Battle Sisters as Retinue+Fearless = Celestians)
Grey Knight Captain (Kill team as retinue, can upgrade to Librarian ??)
Inquisitor (basic stats but bigger retinue = better inquisitor)

Elites
Assassin
Sisters Repentia
Grey Knight Terminators

Troops
Battle Sisters
Grey Knights [Teleport = fast attack]
Kill Team [Teleport = fast attack]
Storm Troopers
Inducted Guard

Fast Attack
Seraphim
Arcoflagellants/chronogladiators etc

Heavy Support
Dominions/Retributors
Dreadnought [Would Deathwatch have a dreadnought or would he remain with his chapter?]
Exorcist
Penitent Engine [could these "count as" dreadnoughts ???]
LandRaider

Transports
Rhino [not available to grey knights]
Chimera [Stormtroopers+inquistors only]
Immolator/Razorback [sisters+deathwatch]

Radical Choices [cannot include any Orders Militant choices.]
Daemonhost/possessed
Mutants/surgically altered
Xenos mercenaries [in the Eldar Rangers/Kroot mould]
Heretical weaponry eg DaemonWeapon/Anetheme, Hrud Fusil etc etc
Unsanctioned Psyker
Etc


Personally speaking i wouldnt include access to the units from other codexes, this means no leman russ/landspeeders/etc. This is more the realm of the Apocalypse where you can bring along whatever you like.

Master Jeridian
15-09-2007, 15:09
Why does nobody want Elite Celestians?

Grazzy
15-09-2007, 15:48
I think gitburna'slist is the best. I don'e rhind that there will be an inquisition codex soon though. Orks and dark eldar first.

Luckywallace
15-09-2007, 16:29
While, as far as I know, the Inquisition-all-in-one rumours are just rumours it doesn't sound too unlikely.

However, there is something of a problem the way things stand with in-corporating the lists because at the moment Witch Hunters have many more and (while perhaps not 'better') certainly more flexible troops than Daemonhunters.

AlienHunters of course have nothing at all so far besides Death Watch kill teams.

Perhaps the best idea within the one Codex would be to essentially have FOUR lists. You have your rather-short *key* "Inquisition" list which would be things such as an Inquisitor Lord, Assasins, Stormtroopers, Orbital Strikes.

Then you can also take picks from *one* other list, be it Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle or Death Watch. Perhaps you could have Space Marines or Imperial Guard also be options for this "one other", with directions to those books.

In a way I just think it would be messy to have the Grey Knights, Sisters and Death Watch all mixed up together in one list, especially when it would probably be rare for a player to mix them up (I'm a WitchHunters player and certainly don't intend to mix up my forces with any marines).

I also feel any "normal" Space Marines and Imperial Guard shouldn't be in the book and if they can be mixed with Inquisition they should be referanced within the book as being in their seperate Codex. I know G.W. seems to be wanting to streamline things but they've shown with the Chaos Demon Codex that they're willing to spread across 2 books if the theme fits. Since I think most people fielding Inquisitorial armies ideally like to field "pure" forces I believe it's not an unreasonable thing to do (no more so than the 2 Chaos dex's).

That's my 2 cents...

FateofChaos
15-09-2007, 17:44
I am kinda new to this stuff but "Troops
Battle Sisters
Grey Knights [Teleport = fast attack]
Kill Team [Teleport = fast attack]
Storm Troopers
Inducted Guard"
what is kill team I thought that was a game not a unit

sabreu
15-09-2007, 18:01
I see one inclusive Inquisition Codex more along these lines;

HQ

Grey Knight Lord $ Retinue - May be upgraded to terminators. Allows Grey Knights in power armor to be taken as troops.

Cannoness - Allows Sisters of Battle to be taken as troops.

Inquisitor Lord - Rhino/Landraider/Chimera option.

Elites

Grey Knights - May be upgraded to terminators or purgation squad. All may teleport/deepstrike

Deathwatch Kill Team - Deepstrike/Rhino

Sisters of Battle - Weapon options changed. May take a Rhino/Immolator transport. May be upgraded Seraphim if Cannoness is selected, in which case they become fast attack.

Sisters Repentia

Grey Knight Dreadnaught

Troops

Inquisitorial Storm Troopers - Rhino/Chimera option

Arcoflagelents

Fast Attack

Hellhound

Sentinel

Penitent Engine

Heavy

Land Raider - May be upgraded to a crusader.

Orbital Bombardment

Excorcist

Assassins

Don't take up a FOC slot

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 18:10
I'm trying to understand why people want to pump up the stupid Marines while stripping the Sisters of Battle down to four ******* units. I can understand adding to Death Watch and filling them out as a proper list, but not Grey Knights.

Vet.Sister
15-09-2007, 18:39
So you'd be happy to have no restrictions or balance on the army list, to be able to take SM Tornados backed up by IG Leman Russ's with min IST Troops choices.

Other's prefer balance. Those restrictions are in place so that an Inquisition force doesn't get it better than an IG or SM army with the same units.

I understand.;) Could you please jump from your conclusion back to square one for a moment??? I get why Sisters don't have land speeders, etc,etc, it's a Space *****/IG thing..... fair enough. But if I'm already fielding 3-4 unit of Battle Sisters as Troops why should I need to dilute my army with inducted IG just to get access to Sentinels??? Why not make them 0-1 if you have no IG in your list with maybe a small point bump?

Ultimately, my argument comes down to this; I don't want to buy/assemble/paint a few boxes of IG models just to get what I'm really after. Allowing Battle Sisters access to a single unit of Sentinels is NOT going to break their list. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

marv335
15-09-2007, 18:40
well Gav Thorpe told me today that there were no plans for alienhunters until every other codex for 4th ed has been done.

Vet.Sister
15-09-2007, 18:41
I'm trying to understand why people want to pump up the stupid Marines while stripping the Sisters of Battle down to four ******* units. I can understand adding to Death Watch and filling them out as a proper list, but not Grey Knights.

You're asking this with that second quote in your sig?;)

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 18:45
You're asking this with that second quote in your sig?;)

Which thing since there's two of them? :angel:

PS You have a PM.

Vet.Sister
15-09-2007, 18:49
Sisters of Battle are the redheaded, barefoot, and naked stepchild that lives in a van eating government cheese down by the river.

I meant this one.

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 18:51
Sisters of Battle are the redheaded, barefoot, and naked stepchild that lives in a van eating government cheese down by the river.

I meant this one.

Well it's true and the people in this thread that want to cut Sisters down so badly only reinforces it. ;)

Arhalien
15-09-2007, 18:54
Why are so few people mentioning Daemonhosts? Are you just ignoring the fact that radicals exist and that people may want to do an army for them?

sabreu
15-09-2007, 18:56
I don't think anyone wants to cut down sisters exclusively, most people here are just trying to conceptionalize an all inclusive inquisition codex, which unfortunately needs to be thought out and either units being condensed or ommitted. What you perceive as purposeful discrimination is actually just a perception. It's just hard to figure out how to get everything into one codex.

sabreu
15-09-2007, 18:58
Daemon hosts will probably become a retinue thing. It would be convenient for FOC purposes IMHO.

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 19:01
Why are so few people mentioning Daemonhosts? Are you just ignoring the fact that radicals exist and that people may want to do an army for them?

I included Daemonhosts in my list. ;)


I don't think anyone wants to cut down sisters exclusively, most people here are just trying to conceptionalize an all inclusive inquisition codex, which unfortunately needs to be thought out and either units being condensed or ommitted. What you perceive as purposeful discrimination is actually just a perception. It's just hard to figure out how to get everything into one codex.



Except that they are cutting down on the number of Sisters units while boosting GK and DW. Compare my list, which has the Sisters and GK intact, while boosting the DW to a proper list.

Sovereign
15-09-2007, 19:05
AFAIC, Allied SM have it too good, and Inducted IG are too little.

SM should give:
* Tacticals,
* Assault, Bikers, Landspeeders,
* Devastators & Preds.
That's plenty enough to fill out Deathwatch (or even GK), so that DW only need to have Librarian (HQ) with Kill Team, Scouts (Elite). Esp as Inquisition can take Land Raider.

IG, OTOH, should be expanded:
* Platoon, AF Squad, Conscripts
* Rough Riders, Sentinel, Hellhound
* Leman Russ

unrestricted Russ & Hellhound allows for a more mobile force, while Conscripts allow for quantity of units. Conscripts also double as Fratris Militia.

sabreu
15-09-2007, 19:14
To the_patriot,

I thought my little jab at a list was pretty well rounded, but the lack of my WH codex prevents me from 'covering the bases' sort to speak. I tried though!

Sovereign
15-09-2007, 19:15
Interesting how Born Again is the only poster including inducted IG. Which brings me to my idea for an addition, Planetary Defense Force.

If they did this, then Inq. StormTroopers in the Troops slot could have the option to buy the Infiltrate ability (there by giving them some utility).
Hey, I included IG in my list...

PDF are simply Conscripts with Lasguns. Fratris Militia are simply Conscripts with LP&CCW. Fix Conscripts in IG and make them in Inq, and problem is easily solved.

Inq STs should have Deep Strike standard, considering the points cost.

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 19:16
AFAIC, Allied SM have it too good, and Inducted IG are too little.

SM should give:
* Tacticals,
* Assault, Bikers, Landspeeders,
* Devastators & Preds.
That's plenty enough to fill out Deathwatch (or even GK), so that DW only need to have Librarian (HQ) with Kill Team, Scouts (Elite). Esp as Inquisition can take Land Raider.

IG, OTOH, should be expanded:
* Platoon, AF Squad, Conscripts
* Rough Riders, Sentinel, Hellhound
* Leman Russ

unrestricted Russ & Hellhound allows for a more mobile force, while Conscripts allow for quantity of units. Conscripts also double as Fratris Militia.

DW already has rules for expanding them in an existing SM army and I incorporated those ideas to build a full list. There should be limits on how much you can take as allies as well. Frateris Militia was disbanded during the Reformation of Sebastian Thor and you'll never see them again due to the Decree Passive.


To the_patriot,

I thought my little jab at a list was pretty well rounded, but the lack of my WH codex prevents me from 'covering the bases' sort to speak. I tried though!

It was a good attempt, but lacked several things. ;) I only wanted to know why people were dropping a lot of Sisters units from their lists.

sabreu
15-09-2007, 19:25
IMHO, I don't think DW should be fleshed out in an inquisition list to match the capacity of the Grey Knights or the Sisters of Battle. It seems fundamentally wrong that a force that is only sent out in kill teams can produce armies the equivilent of either of the other chamber militants.

@ the_patriot,

Looking over your list, I realized the only thing I didn't cover the base for was celestians.

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 19:29
IMHO, I don't think DW should be fleshed out in an inquisition list to match the capacity of the Grey Knights or the Sisters of Battle. It seems fundamentally wrong that a force that is only sent out in kill teams can produce armies the equivilent of either of the other chamber militants.

@ the_patriot,

Looking over your list, I realized the only thing I didn't cover the base for was celestians.

The fluff for DW isn't well established, unlike the other two Ordos, and can be changed to make them a full fledged list. I can imagine that Ordos Xenos would be primarily a way to deal with Eldar and Orks, but with a good experience against Tyranids. I can easily see Ordos Xenos dropping a full force onto a Xenos controlled world and trying to take it over.

Sovereign
15-09-2007, 19:33
DW already has rules for expanding them in an existing SM army and I incorporated those ideas to build a full list. There should be limits on how much you can take as allies as well.

Frateris Militia was disbanded during the Reformation of Sebastian Thor and you'll never see them again due to the Decree Passive.
All DW need are the non-canon SM units: Librarian, Kill Team, and Scouts. The rest can be bog standard and will do just fine.

There don't need to be any particular limits on Allies because the selection is limited to basic units. Inquisition with 2 IG Troops and 3 Russes really isn't a big deal. It's no more powerful than IG with Inqis allies, but less IG because they don't get access to Basilisks / Demolishers / HW Platoons.

Frateris Militia aren't affected by the Decree Passive denying Men Under Arms (i.e. GEq). They're just rabble following the Priest / Inquisitor.

sabreu
15-09-2007, 19:33
Yeah, but it would be easier to allow storm troopers the xeno-fighters doctrines to represent that when led by a Ordo Xeno inquisitor rather than create another SM chapter. But again, thats just my opinion. ^_^

sabreu
15-09-2007, 19:36
Don't the Deathwatch already have librarians incorporated in their units? And would they really have scouts, considering they are an amagolated (sp?) chapter?

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 19:38
Yeah, but it would be easier to allow storm troopers the xeno-fighters doctrines to represent that when led by a Ordo Xeno inquisitor rather than create another SM chapter. But again, thats just my opinion. ^_^

Well the thing is that DW are drawn from all SM chapters so it wouldn't be a chapter unto itself. ;)


All DW need are the non-canon SM units: Librarian, Kill Team, and Scouts. The rest can be bog standard and will do just fine.

There don't need to be any particular limits on Allies because the selection is limited to basic units. Inquisition with 2 IG Troops and 3 Russes really isn't a big deal. It's no more powerful than IG with Inqis allies, but less IG because they don't get access to Basilisks / Demolishers / HW Platoons.

Frateris Militia aren't affected by the Decree Passive denying Men Under Arms (i.e. GEq). They're just rabble following the Priest / Inquisitor.

DW already get Librarians. I would only keep Kill Teams for induction into other Ordos and that would be it. They would have to be brought up to a full list though.

I stand corrected on the Militia as I got them confused with the Frateris Templars. ;)

sabreu
15-09-2007, 19:41
That's exactly why I feel they shouldn't be fleshed out more, beyond 'Kill-teams' in the elite slot.

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 19:46
That's exactly why I feel they shouldn't be fleshed out more, beyond 'Kill-teams' in the elite slot.

Except that DW are a lot more then just Kill Teams. They are a complete Inquisitional Order in and of itself, which would mean further fleshing out.

sabreu
15-09-2007, 19:49
They maintain 'chapter' size and all that it entails, and they act as the chamber militant of the Ordo Xenos. The problem being, though, one chapter sized organization is not going to be able to fight the same way as the grey knights or a space marine chapter. Alien incursions occur all over the place. At least with demons, it's rare enough that an Inquisitor can hope to get more than a kill team. I, personally, can't see the DW being expanded more than it already is.

In the end though, I respect the view that they might get fleshed out, I just don't agree with it. Sounds hokey to me.

Edit add-on: I don't think they can fight effectively like a normal chapter is because they get requisitioned by the Inquisition, by many different inquisitors. A regular SM chapter can fight under the guidance of it's chapter master or company captain. Many bosses as opposed to one...that's what I'm driving at.

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 19:58
They maintain 'chapter' size and all that it entails, and they act as the chamber militant of the Ordo Xenos. The problem being, though, one chapter sized organization is not going to be able to fight the same way as the grey knights or a space marine chapter. Alien incursions occur all over the place. At least with demons, it's rare enough that an Inquisitor can hope to get more than a kill team. I, personally, can't see the DW being expanded more than it already is.

In the end though, I respect the view that they might get fleshed out, I just don't agree with it. Sounds hokey to me.

Edit add-on: I don't think they can fight effectively like a normal chapter is because they get requisitioned by the Inquisition, by many different inquisitors. A regular SM chapter can fight under the guidance of it's chapter master or company captain. Many bosses as opposed to one...that's what I'm driving at.

Except that the Inquisition faces internal threats not external. Also all Space Marine chapters face the we have to fight for many masters syndrome since they are all at the beck and call of the Inquisition as well as the High Lords. It never stopped them before fighting effectively in the fluff.

Sovereign
15-09-2007, 20:22
Patriot, GW is streamlining Codices so that only Elites get special USRs. Look at the new DA and BA lists, and they're basically pure Codex Astartes. BA have a special Elite - Death Company, and that's about it. Look at the new Chaos book - only Elites get USRs. So the idea that DW need lots of special rules for their non-Elites is no longer correct.

So as part of an Inquistion list the DW only need:

HQ Librarian
Elites Kill Team and Scouts

the rest can be gotten as Allied SM and just painted up as DW Marines.

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 20:46
Patriot, GW is streamlining Codices so that only Elites get special USRs. Look at the new DA and BA lists, and they're basically pure Codex Astartes. BA have a special Elite - Death Company, and that's about it. Look at the new Chaos book - only Elites get USRs. So the idea that DW need lots of special rules for their non-Elites is no longer correct.

So as part of an Inquistion list the DW only need:

HQ Librarian
Elites Kill Team and Scouts

the rest can be gotten as Allied SM and just painted up as DW Marines.

So they removed ATSKNF from all Marines, except for elites?

bertcom1
15-09-2007, 20:53
I don't think allied SM or inducted IG should have a wide variety of units - it's Codex: Inquisition, not Codex: SM plus inquisitor stuff.

Anyway, Deathwatch could be expanded minimally, to represent the Ordo Xenos drafting not only Kill Teams, but also Deathwatch trained Marines from nearby chapters. These would form Tactical and Assault squads, but their only special rules would be Preferred Enemy. Kill Teams would get the other rules such as the special rounds, true grit, infiltrate, whatever.
Death Watch units are similar enough to allied SM, that they can be included as upgrades in the army lists, reducing page space requirements.

As for the rest, I would limit the amount of heavy equipment that inducted/allied forces bring along, again because its not codex SM + stuff, but also because heavy equipment is harder to transport and support compared to men.


These are the units I would expect to see. (allied units) [new units]

HQ units - Determine the other units you can take. You can go pure or mixed, but you couldn't take improbable combinations such as GK,DW and SoB all in one. Radical Inquisitors cannot be used with SoB, DW or GK.

Inquisitor Lord - allows Inquisition units
Canoness - allows SoB units
Grey Knight Commander - allows GK units
[Deathwatch Commander] - allows DW units
[(Cardinal/Priests)] - allows Ecclesiarchy units
(SM Captain) - Allied SM
(IG Command) - Inducted IG

Elite units
Grey Knight Terminators - GK
Celestians - SoB
Deathwatch Kill Team - DW
Temple Assassin - INQ
Cult Assassin - INQ - Radical
Daemonhosts - INQ - Radical
Arcoflagellants - Ecclesiarchy
Repentia - SoB/Ecclesiarchy?
[Alien trophy hunters] - INQ - Radical - A new unit consisting of professional/sporting shooters, using sniper rifles.

Troops units
Battle Sisters - SoB
StormTroopers - INQ
Grey Knights - GK
[Deathwatch Tactical Marines] - DW
(Tactical Marines) - SM
(Guard Platoons) - IG
[Zealots, redemptionists, cultists] - Ecclesiarchy - INQ - Similar unit to Conscripts- a large formation of lightly armed/armoured low skilled troops

Fast Attack
Seraphim - SoB
Dominions - SoB
[Deathwatch Assault Marines] - DW
Grey Knight Teleport squads - GK
(Guard Armoured Fist) - IG
(Guard Sentinels) - IG
(Marine assault squads) - SM

Heavy Support
Retributors - SoB
Exorcist - SoB
Grey Knight Purgation squads - GK
Dreadnoughts - GK - DW
Orbital Strike - INQ
Penitent engines - Ecclesiarchy
Land Raider - GK - DW
Land Raider Crusader - GK - DW

Transports
Rhino
Immolator
Chimera


Page requirements

DW special rules - 1 page
GK special rules - 1 page
SoB special rules/acts of faith - 1 page

Psychic powers - 2 pages
Inquisitor retinues - 2 pages

Army List
HQ - 2 pages
Elite - 6 pages
Troops - 3 pages
Fast Attack - 3 pages
Heavy Support - 3 pages
Transports - 1 page.

Unit Background + rules + 6 special characters - 24 pages

Wargear - 6 pages

Thats 55 pages to make all the rules and how the units work.

16 pages of background

20 pages of modelling/paint schemes/sample forces.

5 pages of random stuff - summary sheet - Why play Inquisition, etc.

96 page codex.

I think this is achievable.

Luckywallace
15-09-2007, 21:38
Nice list Bertcom and essentially that would be ideal...

However I can't see that happening and GW putting it all into one codex.

Have to say, on the fluff-wise Alien Hunters/Death Watch front... I always got the impression of them operating in their small Kill-Teams and that if they did need a big force for something they'd probably use their connections with various Space Marine chapters to draft in troops (with lots of Death Watch sergeants/captains/librarians). This would essentially make the Alien Hunters a lot like a generic marine army with a bit of a spin on it (pretty much what Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Black Templars have become).

In a way this would make it nice and simple for G.W. but also a bit dull for everyone. That said, if they did 'tweak' the fluff to allow more Death Watch units what would they be besides black-painted Marine units anyway? Perhaps it is the best solution... fairly standard Marines list with added Inquisitors, Stormtroopers, odd FrEaKy unit and a "Kill Team" squad in Elites.

HOWEVER, Grey Knights and especially Sisters are much more viable as their own force, even without the Inquisitorial aspect. They both need to remain viable as a seperate independant force, sans any Inquisitors, Assasins or inducted Guard.

In a way perhaps i'd be best if the Inquisition codex's just get left... I'm happy with my Witch Hunters as they stand... (can't speak for you Daemon-hunting lot though...).

Sabbad
15-09-2007, 21:41
Well, since the OP asked what a codex would be like if GW made one, NOT what people would like to see in the book (lets face it, those two things are rarely the same), I can imagine GW doing this:

HQ
Inquisitor Lord (Generic. All have access to the same equipment, same retinue, and same unit choices).
Grey Knight Hero.
Deathwatch Hero.
Cannoness.

ELITES
Inquisitor (Generic. All have access to the same equipment, same retinue, and same unit choices).
Assassins (possibly even a single Generic Assassin - maybe a short list of weapons options?).
Grey Knight Terminators.
Deathwatch Kill-Team.
Celestines.

TROOPS
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers.
Grey Knights.
Deathwatch Scouts.
Sisters of Battle.

FAST ATTACK
Arco-Flagellants.
Deathwatch Land Speeders.
Seraphim.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Dreadnoughts (GW would force players to proxy Penitent Engines as these).
Land Raiders.
Land Raider Crusaders.
Exorcists.


Daemonhosts/their alternate Ordo equivalents (Unsanctioned Psykers, Bound Aliens) would become an option for Inquisitor retinues, as would Sister Repentia. I can see Inquisitorial retinues involving a base profile for generic fighters, with a number of different models have upgrade options, a bit like the current Harlequins rules.

Immolaters would just become dedicated transport vehicles for Sisters of Battle (if they aren't already...my memory fails me).

Requisitioned Guard/Marines would definately NOT be in the Codex, and might not even be there as an allies option.

Oh, and Orbital Bombardments would go. There's no money to be made in a unit choice that doesn't require a model.

(From a less cynical standpoint, there is no background jusitification whatsoever behind giving them Orbital Bombardments and not also giving them to Guard, Marines, Chaos, Orks etc.)


@ Bertcom: If you seriously believe GW will put that many units in one codex, you are suffering from severe faulty pattern recognition syndrome. When was the last time GW had this many units in one book? 2nd edition? Sure it's "achievable" - but so is putting rules for Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels all in the Space Marine codex.

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 22:02
Daemonhosts/their alternate Ordo equivalents (Unsanctioned Psykers, Bound Aliens) would become an option for Inquisitor retinues, as would Sister Repentia. I can see Inquisitorial retinues involving a base profile for generic fighters, with a number of different models have upgrade options, a bit like the current Harlequins rules.

Immolaters would just become dedicated transport vehicles for Sisters of Battle (if they aren't already...my memory fails me).

Requisitioned Guard/Marines would definately NOT be in the Codex, and might not even be there as an allies option.

Oh, and Orbital Bombardments would go. There's no money to be made in a unit choice that doesn't require a model.

(From a less cynical standpoint, there is no background jusitification whatsoever behind giving them Orbital Bombardments and not also giving them to Guard, Marines, Chaos, Orks etc.)


@ Bertcom: If you seriously believe GW will put that many units in one codex, you are suffering from severe faulty pattern recognition syndrome. When was the last time GW had this many units in one book? 2nd edition? Sure it's "achievable" - but so is putting rules for Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels all in the Space Marine codex.

Repentias are not retinues in Sisters and the fluff backs it up. They are an elite unit that is separate under the control of a Repentia Mistress. Immolaters are dedicated tranports only for Celestians, Dominions, and Retributers. Standard Battle Sisters ride in a Rhino. An Immolator only has a transport capacity of 6.

There is no need to insult bertcom since he didn't forget that the book covers three different Ordos and kept the first two lists viable. Your lists royally screws over GK and SOB as pure forces making them entirely dependent upon inducted to cover areas they inherently lack. Next time instead of removing from the existing viable lists try harder at filling out the only Ordo that needs filling out. Also your choice to put Arco-Flagallents into the Fast Attack slot makes no sense since they are an elite unit by the fluff.

Sovereign
15-09-2007, 22:02
So they removed ATSKNF from all Marines, except for elites?
Wow, that is so petulant, it hardly deserves a response.

Any DW list will be more like DA/BA than the old lists. And that means that most of the units will come straight from C:SM, with no need to add chrome.

This isn't 2nd Ed, and the sooner you deal with that, the easier things will be for you.

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 22:08
Wow, that is so petulant, it hardly deserves a response.

Any DW list will be more like DA/BA than the old lists. And that means that most of the units will come straight from C:SM, with no need to add chrome.

This isn't 2nd Ed, and the sooner you deal with that, the easier things will be for you.

You stated plainly that they removed all USR from regular units. I asked a simple question if they removed the Space Marine USR from all Marine units except for the Elite choices. Logically speaking, you presented a fallacy that falls flat on its face when confronted with facts.

I can see that DW will be getting different wargear and upgrades then standard Marines. This is wargear and upgrades not USR like ATSKNF or Drop Pods which means that they would need their own entry in the book.

Sabbad
15-09-2007, 22:16
Repentias are not retinues in Sisters and the fluff backs it up. They are an elite unit that is separate under the control of a Repentia Mistress.

Yes... I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not sure what your point is here. I for one wouldn't want Repentias to go, but it is what GW would do - scrap an unpopular/poor selling choice and tell veteran players to use them as Inquisitorial retinues (eviscerators would porbably become a wargear option for some members of an -][- retinue, so that players can use the Priest with eviscerator model as WYSIWYG as well!)


Immolaters are dedicated tranports only for Celestians, Dominions, and Retributers. Standard Battle Sisters ride in a Rhino. An Immolator only has a transport capacity of 6.

Thank you for clarifying the current rules (I was not 100% aware of them). A new codex by GW would scrap Immolators as anything other than dedicated transports. Sisters of Battle would retain the Rhino transport option.


There is no need to insult bertcom

I did not intend to. If I came across as such, I apologise.


since he didn't forget that the book covers three different Ordos and kept the first two lists viable.

And nor did I - but this isn't how I'd write the Codex anyway. I think you're missing the point of my post, and the thread in general...


Your lists royally screws over GK and SOB as pure forces making them entirely dependent upon inducted to cover areas they inherently lack.

A slight exaggeration, but not entirely unjustified.


Next time instead of removing from the existing viable lists try harder at filling out the only Ordo that needs filling out.

Does that sound like something GW would do to you? Does the evidence from CSM not suggest that GW are streamlining unit choices rather than creating more of them?


Also your choice to put Arco-Flagallents into the Fast Attack slot makes no sense since they are an elite unit by the fluff

That's quite a silly statement, since Obliterators, Dark Reapers and Daemon Princes are quite "elite" in their fighting prowess as well.

Arco-Flaggelents are Fast Attack because (1) they are a suicide attack unit that relies upon charging forwards at high speed as a Fast-attacking unit and (2) to cover the fact that the list otherwise suffers from a lack of Fast Attack units. In GW's eyes, it's a choice between making them Fast Attack or scrapping them...

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 22:21
Yes... I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not sure what your point is here. I for one wouldn't want Repentias to go, but it is what GW would do - scrap an unpopular/poor selling choice and tell veteran players to use them as Inquisitorial retinues (eviscerators would porbably become a wargear option for some members of an -][- retinue, so that players can use the Priest with eviscerator model as WYSIWYG as well!)

Thank you for clarifying the current rules (I was not 100% aware of them). A new codex by GW would scrap Immolators as anything other than dedicated transports. Sisters of Battle would retain the Rhino transport option.

I did not intend to. If I came across as such, I apologise.

And nor did I - but this isn't how I'd write the Codex anyway. I think you're missing the point of my post, and the thread in general...

A slight exaggeration, but not entirely unjustified.

Does that sound like something GW would do to you? Does the evidence from CSM not suggest that GW are streamlining unit choices rather than creating more of them?

That's quite a silly statement, since Obliterators, Dark Reapers and Daemon Princes are quite "elite" in their fighting prowess as well.

Arco-Flaggelents are Fast Attack because (1) they are a suicide attack unit that relies upon charging forwards at high speed as a Fast-attacking unit and (2) to cover the fact that the list otherwise suffers from a lack of Fast Attack units. In GW's eyes, it's a choice between making them Fast Attack or scrapping them...

Let's start off with a simple question. Do you work for GW and write their Codices? If not then everything you posted is your opinion on what the Codex would be not what GW would do. You forgot to mention that GW is putting out Codex: Daemons for Chaos players next year, with the possibility of a third Chaos Codex, which pretty much invalidates your entire position. I've read the new Chaos Space Marine Codex and the only thing they did was streamline the options to units as well as tone down certain legions. They did not scrap entire lists nor made them unviable by relying upon other units.

bertcom1
15-09-2007, 22:41
@ Bertcom: When was the last time GW had this many units in one book?

Well, it can be condensed quite a bit. The Grey Knights for example. the teleport squad currently is the same as the troops squad, but with the teleport ability. The purgation squad can be rejigged to work like this as well. This means one unit type could be used for multiple force organisation charts, further saving space.

Deathwatch as well. A squad, depending on their weapons+gear, is an elite, troop or fast attack choice.

Sisters of Battle Dominion/Retributors as well - 4 special+transport=Dominion=FastAttack, 4 heavy=Retributor=HeavySupport.

Allied/inducted forces can be cut out as well.

That leaves 27 unit types (inc transports) for the Inquisition specific forces.

The new Chaos codex has 24 unit types.

The_Patriot
15-09-2007, 22:48
Well, it can be condensed quite a bit. The Grey Knights for example. the teleport squad currently is the same as the troops squad, but with the teleport ability. The purgation squad can be rejigged to work like this as well. This means one unit type could be used for multiple force organisation charts, further saving space.

Deathwatch as well. A squad, depending on their weapons+gear, is an elite, troop or fast attack choice.

Sisters of Battle Dominion/Retributors as well - 4 special+transport=Dominion=FastAttack, 4 heavy=Retributor=HeavySupport.

Allied/inducted forces can be cut out as well.

That leaves 27 unit types (inc transports) for the Inquisition specific forces.

The new Chaos codex has 24 unit types.

A quick point, Retributers can be mounted in Immolaters as well. The only difference is that Dominions have to be mounted in a vehicle.

For simplicity one could combine Battle Sisters/Retributers/Dominions into one unit type as they have the same stats, but differentiate them on wargear and transport.

liggu
16-09-2007, 00:41
i think core troop choices could be

inq stormtroopers
inducted conscript platoons
inducted SM tact squad

chamber militant squad
all with power armour and frag and krak grenades and bolter

if led by OH or a cannoness they have acts of faith and can chose from this list of wargear < insert SOB style wargear list here>

if army is by OM or GK grandmaster they all replace bolter with a nemisis force weapon ( power weapon? ) and storm bolter ( counts as BP in HTH fighting ) and some sort of trinket which gives a 5+ inv save maybe?

if army is led by OX or deathwatch commander or libby they get targeters on thier bolters, and other kill teamish trinckets like force field projectors? infilltrate, and modified HVY bolters STR 5 AP 4 and assualt 3, and maybe the squad can get special bolts, like +2 str or makes them shoot at ap 3? or with extra range?

any thoughts?

Sovereign
16-09-2007, 06:46
Arco-Flaggelents are Fast Attack because (1) they are a suicide attack unit that relies upon charging forwards at high speed as a Fast-attacking unit and (2) to cover the fact that the list otherwise suffers from a lack of Fast Attack units. In GW's eyes, it's a choice between making them Fast Attack or scrapping them...
By that reasoning, basic Eldar Storm Guardians and Dark Eldar Wyches are "Fast Attack" purely by dint of having Fleet.

It is perfectly OK for the Inquisition list, or (non-SoB, non-GK) parts of the Inquisition list, to be "light" on Fast Attack choices. Especially given that they can pull SM or IG to fill this role.

I think that Arco-Flagellants would be more natural as an unrestricted Elite choice available to any Inquisitor.

The_Patriot
16-09-2007, 08:15
+++ Quote from Sovereign removed by The WarSeer Inquisition +++

I did read your entire post and your entire basis is that only Elites get USRs. You also threw in comparisons to main DA and BA Space Marine chapters. Did you forget the special rules under Death Watch for Veterans, Independent Characters, HQ members, and Tactical Squads? Of course you did which is why I asked about And They Shall Know No Fear. The differences between a regular SM HQ, IC, Veteran, and Tactical Squads and their Death Watch equivalents is just in wargear. There are no special rules for those units hence my objection to your statements.

Also, insulting someone is a sure sign that you've got nothing to say that is to be taken seriously.

-IronWarrior-
16-09-2007, 09:24
I'd drop the landspeeders and leman russ from the list, but not bad.

Yea taking the Imperial Guards only glorified tank and making it non unique would be wrong.

And unless it has a battle cannon its not a Leman Russ :evilgrin:

Sabbad
16-09-2007, 10:07
Let's start off with a simple question. Do you work for GW and write their Codices?

No.


If not then everything you posted is your opinion on what the Codex would be not what GW would do.

Well yes...I think that's pretty much a given. Obviously if I say something then it is my opinion, but as that is the given context of this thread I didn't feel it needed spelling out. IN MY OPINION.


You forgot to mention that GW is putting out Codex: Daemons for Chaos players next year, with the possibility of a third Chaos Codex, which pretty much invalidates your entire position.

Other than suggesting that GW would NOT release a single -][- Codex and would instead have one for each Ordo, I don't think it invalidates my opinion at all. IN MY OPINION.

Also, comparing Chaos to the Inquisition is silly. Chaos sells - that's why they are giving them a wider model range and wider choice of options. The Inquisition does not. IN MY OPINION.


I've read the new Chaos Space Marine Codex and the only thing they did was streamline the options to units as well as tone down certain legions. They did not scrap entire lists nor made them unviable by relying upon other units.

Grey Knights are unviable as a list atm anyway... but more to the point, Codex:CSM DID scrap entire lists. Many players are now out replacing their Sonic-equipped Termies and Havocs with viable choices as replacements.

IN MY OPINION.

The_Patriot
16-09-2007, 10:25
No.

Well yes...I think that's pretty much a given. Obviously if I say something then it is my opinion, but as that is the given context of this thread I didn't feel it needed spelling out. IN MY OPINION.

Other than suggesting that GW would NOT release a single -][- Codex and would instead have one for each Ordo, I don't think it invalidates my opinion at all. IN MY OPINION.

Also, comparing Chaos to the Inquisition is silly. Chaos sells - that's why they are giving them a wider model range and wider choice of options. The Inquisition does not. IN MY OPINION.

Grey Knights are unviable as a list atm anyway... but more to the point, Codex:CSM DID scrap entire lists. Many players are now out replacing their Sonic-equipped Termies and Havocs with viable choices as replacements.

IN MY OPINION.

You claimed that this is what GW would do and I called you on it.


I for one wouldn't want Repentias to go, but it is what GW would do-

Does that sound like something GW would do to you?

You also made it abundantly clear that this wasn't your opinion.


And nor did I - but this isn't how I'd write the Codex anyway.

You cited Chaos first and I called you on it as well.


Does the evidence from CSM not suggest that GW are streamlining unit choices rather than creating more of them?

The only changes made was to weapons load outs on Termies and Havocs and did nothing to remove lists. Care to bring up further invalid comparisons while you're at it?

GK are a perfectly viable list. You're confusing viable with tournament winning. GK have all the options for each of its slots which DW does not. Thus, GK are a viable list but DW is not. Please try again and this time don't use invalid comparisons or claims of authority since neither support you.

sabreu
16-09-2007, 10:33
Scouts are, IMHO, a horrible choice to add as Deathwatch roops for an Inquisition Codex. They would compete too much with Imperial Storm Troopers in capacity, not to mention I still don't believe Deathwatch even have scouts.

As far as alot of these lists go, there can be much condensing of units. If they take a cue from chosen or Wolf gaurd, it's very easy to get the marine units condensed to include regular power armor/terminator squads, and the sister of battle units are differentiated by weapon choice, transport, and wargear, which also can be condensed into one option.

I still think the best way to cover these units are to keep them limited for the standard list, and have to select their respective HQ to access them as troops/fast attack/heavy support. Otherwise, just throwing in all the units as is together just leaves a horrible room for abuse.

And while inducted gaurd and space marines are a novel idea, I truly seeing that going out the window since the trend has been to keep everything self contained. If the rumors for the orks prove true, their loss of looted imperial gaurd tanks is a good indicator that this trend will continue into the inevitable release of the Inquisition codex.

However, it is a long time to wait and the same development trends might be gone by then.

The_Patriot
16-09-2007, 10:46
Scouts are, IMHO, a horrible choice to add as Deathwatch roops for an Inquisition Codex. They would compete too much with Imperial Storm Troopers in capacity, not to mention I still don't believe Deathwatch even have scouts.

As far as alot of these lists go, there can be much condensing of units. If they take a cue from chosen or Wolf gaurd, it's very easy to get the marine units condensed to include regular power armor/terminator squads, and the sister of battle units are differentiated by weapon choice, transport, and wargear, which also can be condensed into one option.

I still think the best way to cover these units are to keep them limited for the standard list, and have to select their respective HQ to access them as troops/fast attack/heavy support. Otherwise, just throwing in all the units as is together just leaves a horrible room for abuse.

And while inducted gaurd and space marines are a novel idea, I truly seeing that going out the window since the trend has been to keep everything self contained. If the rumors for the orks prove true, their loss of looted imperial gaurd tanks is a good indicator that this trend will continue into the inevitable release of the Inquisition codex.

However, it is a long time to wait and the same development trends might be gone by then.

I kind of agree and disagree on the scouts. Inquisitional Storm Troopers, in my opinion, should only be taken if an Inquisitor Lord or Inquisitor is selected. This is a duplication of SM units, but DW Scouts could keep their standard infiltrate and DW Tacticals won't have the option.

I agree that the lists can be condensed quite a bit since many units of each Ordo have the same stat lines with the differentiation being in gear carried. The only problem I can see is that GK are overpriced slightly. Making them cheaper would go a long way to balance them out with SM and DW.

Agreed that before building your list you need to select the HQ choice first to determine which units you can take for the rest of the slots.

Agreed that Inducted Guard and Marines should go the way of the dodo unless you have an Inquisitor Lord or Inquisitor. Give them the hard fast limits that are currently available while prohibiting a list with no Inquisitor units from taking Inducted Guard and Marines. According to the fluff only Inquisitors can induct IG and SM.

sabreu
16-09-2007, 11:04
Agreed on the grey knights getting better balanced price wise. However, I don't think they should be balanced out against regular SM, but balanced out against DW. The two Astartes forces the Inquisition have are highly specialized. Having them compared to generic line marines would imo degrade both said forces, but if they were in the same codex they should contend for the same FOC slot and be priced similarly

One thing that seems to have been skimped over though are all the ordo specific rules. How does everyone see those being carried over rulewise?

The_Patriot
16-09-2007, 11:16
Agreed on the grey knights getting better balanced price wise. However, I don't think they should be balanced out against regular SM, but balanced out against DW. The two Astartes forces the Inquisition have are highly specialized. Having them compared to generic line marines would imo degrade both said forces, but if they were in the same codex they should contend for the same FOC slot and be priced similarly

One thing that seems to have been skimped over though are all the ordo specific rules. How does everyone see those being carried over rulewise?

I see your point about the SM costs. Keep what Sisters of Battle and GK have already, but update SOB Shield of Faith. Minor psyker powers aren't in the game anymore, so I was thinking a 4+ save vs. psyker powers. Bring the transport costs inline with the other Codices especially the Rhino. Add Preferred Enemy to DW.

Sabbad
16-09-2007, 11:17
Scouts are, IMHO, a horrible choice to add as Deathwatch roops for an Inquisition Codex. They would compete too much with Imperial Storm Troopers in capacity, not to mention I still don't believe Deathwatch even have scouts.

This is something I thought long and hard about. Because I thought that the Deathwatch needed a Troops choice, it was a choice between making Kill Teams a troop choice (and meaning they had no viable Elites choice) or creating a new troops choice for them.

I figured new background could justify their inclusion:

"Whilst Deathwatch Marines are often recruited from the Veterans of other Space Marine Chapters, the variety of threats that they are often forced to face throughout the Imperium often force the Ordo Xenos to select less experienced warriors to bulk out Chamber Militant expeditions. Amongst compliant Astartes chapters, when a Neophyte-in-training is identified as possessing particular aptitude in the purging of xenos, they are often requisitioned by the Ordo Xenos and trained in the Deathwatch way of war. Whilst undergoing such training, they often undertake perilous battlefield missions, assisting their Kill-Team brethren in situations where their veteran brothers could not triumph alone. Once their instruction is complete, these Scouts return to their Chapters as fully-fledged Battle Brothers, ready to be called upon to serve in Kill-Teams when necessary."

I used similar logic to justify creating Deathwatch Land Speeders:

"The Deathwatch way of war involves striking hard and fast, elites Squads of infantry infiltrating into forward positions from which they can efficiently neutralise their targets at close range. However, on occasion, Kill-Teams may find their enemies entrenched in fortified positions which are all but invulnerable to infantry assault, and require the use of heavy weapons assistance to help them reach their destination. Unlike the Grey Knights, who rely upon heavy support from orbit or Land Raider Squadrons to help batter aside oponents with a single hammer-blow, the Deathwatch rely upon surgical strikes from fast moving Land Speeders. These skimmers possess the speed to accompany the Kill-Teams as they advance, and the firepower to eliminate larger threats to their Battle Brothers. Indeed, their armaments are often equipped with specialist ammunition typical to the Deathwatch, to better support their brethren in war."

The_Patriot
16-09-2007, 11:22
This is something I thought long and hard about. Because I thought that the Deathwatch needed a Troops choice, it was a choice between making Kill Teams a troop choice (and meaning they had no viable Elites choice) or creating a new troops choice for them.

I figured new background could justify their inclusion:

"Whilst Deathwatch Marines are often recruited from the Veterans of other Space Marine Chapters, the variety of threats that they are often forced to face throughout the Imperium often force the Ordo Xenos to select less experienced warriors to bulk out Chamber Militant expeditions. Amongst compliant Astartes chapters, when a Neophyte-in-training is identified as possessing particular aptitude in the purging of xenos, they are often requisitioned by the Ordo Xenos and trained in the Deathwatch way of war. Whilst undergoing such training, they often undertake perilous battlefield missions, assisting their Kill-Team brethren in situations where their veteran brothers could not triumph alone. Once their instruction is complete, these Scouts return to their Chapters as fully-fledged Battle Brothers, ready to be called upon to serve in Kill-Teams when necessary."

I used similar logic to justify creating Deathwatch Land Speeders:

"The Deathwatch way of war involves striking hard and fast, elites Squads of infantry infiltrating into forward positions from which they can efficiently neutralise their targets at close range. However, on occasion, Kill-Teams may find their enemies entrenched in fortified positions which are all but invulnerable to infantry assault, and require the use of heavy weapons assistance to help them reach their destination. Unlike the Grey Knights, who rely upon heavy support from orbit or Land Raider Squadrons to help batter aside oponents with a single hammer-blow, the Deathwatch rely upon surgical strikes from fast moving Land Speeders. These skimmers possess the speed to accompany the Kill-Teams as they advance, and the firepower to eliminate larger threats to their Battle Brothers. Indeed, their armaments are often equipped with specialist ammunition typical to the Deathwatch, to better support their brethren in war."

Excellent logic on those two things and might I suggest changing the load out on the Land Speeder to make it different from the existing ones?

Sabbad
16-09-2007, 11:24
My idea was to give Land Speeders with heavy bolters having options to take a number of different bolt ammo, like Kill-Teams.

Korvos
16-09-2007, 11:27
Maybe they'll work it like they did the fantasy demonic legion with 'True Core' choices, i.e. 0-1 of this unit per True Core choice. I also really like the thought of units being basic choices and then being upgraded to other items. So the list would look something like...

HQ
Inquisitor Lord (Designate Ordos, wargear availability changes)
Grey Knight/Sisters of Battle/Deathwatch HQs (0-1 per associated True Core)

Elites
Inquisitor (Designate Ordos, wargear availability changes)
0-1 Temple Assassin (Req Inquisitor)
Deathcult Assassins (0-1 per Inquisitorial True Core taken)
GK Terminators (0-1 per GK True Core taken)
0-1 Sisters Repentia (Req 1 SoB True Core) May include a priest.
Arco-Flagellants (Requires a priest)

Troops
True Core units may in some cases take upgrades that changes their status on the force organization chart. If a True Core unit ceases to be a Troops choice it loses it's True Core status.

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers *True Core Inq*
May Infiltrate or Deep Strike for +1 pt per model.
May include a priest.

Grey Knight *True Core GK* (May deep strike if the mission allows it).
*0-1 per GK True Core - Upgrade to Purgation squad with max 4 psycannons/incinerators. becomes heavy support choice.
*0-1 per GK True Core - Upgrade to Teleportation Assault Squad. A GKTA Squad must teleport in using deep strike (even if the mission doesn't normally allow it) and may act normally upon arrival. Becomes a fast attack choice. (This last bit is pure 100% wishful thinking :( )

Sisters of Battle *True Core SoB*
May include a priest.
*0-1 per SoB True Core - Upgrade to Celestian Squad [...rules...] becomes an elites choice. May include a priest.
*0-1 per SoB True Core - Upgrade to Dominion Squad [...] becomes a fast attack choice. May include a priest.
*0-1 per SoB True Core - Upgrade to Seraphim Squad [...] becomes a fast attack choice.
*0-1 per SoB True Core - Upgrade to Retributor Squad [...] becomes a heavy support choice.

Deathwatch Tactical Squad *True Core DW*
*0-1 per DW True Core - Upgrade to Deathwatch Kill Team [...] becomes a heavy support choice.
*0-1 per DW True Core - Upgrade to Deathwatch Assault Squad (May be Equipped with jump packs for +x points per model or deploy via Drop Pod for +x points) [...] becomes a fast attack choice.
*0-1 per DW True Core - Upgrade to Deathwatch Devastator Squad [...] becomes a heavy support choice.

Fast Attack
Inquisitorial Hellhound (0-1 per Inq True Core taken)

Heavy Support
Grey Knight Dreadnought (0-1 per GK True Core taken)
Land Raider (0-1 per GK or DW True Core taken)
Predator (0-1 per DW True Core taken)
Penitant Engines (Requires a priest) (Could possibly be moved to fast attack)
Immolator (0-1 per SoB True Core)
Exorcist (0-1 per SoB True Core)
0-1 Orbital Strike (Requires Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord) (Could be included in Inq/Inq Lord options as 0-1 per army)

Personally I hope they still allow allied marines/inducted guard, at the least inducted guard. Else it'll be very hard to field an Inquisition force without chamber militant.

Just use the rules for allies as is, disallowing marines if GK/Sob/DW are taken. They could add 0-1 per Inq True Core to all allied units to reinforce that, but meh.

After typing this and looking back, they really wouldn't need to remove huge chunks to streamline it into one codex. Just update some rules *cough* Daemonhunters *cough*. You can have a streamlined codex that allows you to field your favorate Inquisitorial army.

To naysayers that might point at the Chaos codex's streamlining and removal of the Legion rules; I don't think that applies quite so much, this seems more like it would be the equivilant of a Legions codex to me.

I think a Xenos Inquisitor looking for less experianced warriors would bring Inquisitorial Stormtroopers as opposed to scouts, but meh. The Land Speeder thing fits well though.

sabreu
16-09-2007, 11:32
Like the idea on the scouts fluff. That could explain that and add that a troop choice.

Bringing the transport in line with the current codexs is a must!

But I disagee witht he Land speeder. I think any teleporting Deathwatch could be considered FA and that is more likely to happen. But it's a novel idea though. Land speeders with special ammo would certainly be a frightening prospect.

Edit:

I like your list Korvos. That's a different way of doing business.

bertcom1
16-09-2007, 11:34
This is something I thought long and hard about. Because I thought that the Deathwatch needed a Troops choice, it was a choice between making Kill Teams a troop choice (and meaning they had no viable Elites choice) or creating a new troops choice for them.

I used similar logic to justify creating Deathwatch Land Speeders:

Hmm. I made the Deathwatch have Tactical and Assault squads instead, keeping the Kill teams for Elites.

Non-Kill Team Deathwatch squads wouldn't have access to the same level of equipment as the dedicated Kill Teams.

Bolters, 2 special weapons/1 special 1 heavy, Preferred enemy (All Xenos) for DW tactical. 1 Veteran with Power weapon/Power Fist option.
BP/CCw, 2 special weapons, Jump Packs, Preferred enemy (All Xenos) for DW Assault. 1 Veteran with PW/PF option.
maybe they would both have some of the special bolt ammunition, maybe not.

Leaving the Kill Teams to get the DW Captain, full range of special ammunition for boltguns, the suspensor Heavy Bolter with hellfire rounds, etc.

The_Patriot
16-09-2007, 11:35
Korvos, looks great overall, but my only gripe is forcing players to take an Inquisitor Lord. It would be better to have the IL to be an option so people can take two of their Ordo's HQ choices. Add in Inducted Guard as a True Core choice for IL only to cover areas that are lacking in the list for pure Inquisitor armies.

Korvos
16-09-2007, 11:43
No no, the Inquisitors aren't required, they just have no requirements.

Ie to take a GK Grand Master you must take 1 Troops choice of Grey Knights.
If you want you can take an Inquisitor Lord without taking stormtroopers, or you can just not take an Inquisitor Lord.

I wanted to leave Inquisitors available for all factions, but not make them required by a faction (only certain unit choices).

Wheras the Chamber Militant leaders can only be mobilized with Chamber Militant Forces. No taking a bunch of Deathwatch lead by a pair of Grand Masters without another Grey Knight in sight.

bertcom1
16-09-2007, 11:44
*0-1 per SoB True Core - Upgrade to Seraphim Squad [...] becomes a heavy support choice.

Seraphim as Heavy Support?

The_Patriot
16-09-2007, 11:46
No no, the Inquisitors aren't required, they just have no requirements.

Ie to take a GK Grand Master you must take 1 Troops choice of Grey Knights.
If you want you can take an Inquisitor Lord without taking stormtroopers, or you can just not take an Inquisitor Lord.

I wanted to leave Inquisitors available for all factions, but not make them required by a faction (only certain unit choices).

Wheras the Chamber Militant leaders can only be mobilized with Chamber Militant Forces. No taking a bunch of Deathwatch lead by a pair of Grand Masters without another Grey Knight in sight.

Ahh gotcha and why are Seraphim heavy support?

sabreu
16-09-2007, 11:49
I think that was a typo

Korvos
16-09-2007, 11:52
Opps, yeah thats a typo, I'll fix it.

Wintermute
16-09-2007, 11:53
Can we leave the insults, the flames and aggressive posting out of this thread please?

If not I will close the thread and take action against anyone who ignores this warning.

Wintermute
The Warseer Inquisition

The_Patriot
16-09-2007, 11:59
I'd like to add in Wintermute and Nick as Special Characters for the Inquisition. ;)

sabreu
16-09-2007, 12:12
What are the general feelings of the Griffon tank becoming part of the Inquisition heavy support? It wouldn't steal the thunder from the IG, and give the Inquisition a sorely needed universal HS option other than Orbital Bombardment.

Edit:

Also, wouldn't a salamander scout vehicle be appropriate for the FA slot?

Wintermute
16-09-2007, 12:18
I'd like to add in Wintermute and Nick as Special Characters for the Inquisition. ;)

[off-topic]

Sorry we are already Special Characters in the WarSeer Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes (see the link in my Sig).

Nick is the Chapter Master and I'm the Grand Master Librarian.

[/on-topic]

Korvos
16-09-2007, 12:24
A salamander could work, I went for the hellhound just for burny goodness. Could just do a chimera chassis that must be upgraded (to prevent non-dedicated tranports beyond Land Raiders).

Griffon I'm meh on. I think a Leman Russ (0-1 per Inq True Core unit), or varient, would fit that part better.

I don't really thing there should be a universal option. Each Chamber Militant has its own heavy support, although I forgot about an Inquisition non chamber heavy support.

sabreu
16-09-2007, 12:30
I would go for a griffon for two reasons. The logic I used is;

a.) Stapled on to the Inquisition as the non-chamber dedicated HS, it could boost that models profitability.

b.) Leman Russ' are symbolic of Gaurd armies. That would kinda be stepping on their turf.

Korvos
16-09-2007, 12:38
A new Dark Eldar codex would prolly increase the Dark Eldar line's profitability, but that hasn't happened :p

You're right that it may step on their toes. Leaving the leman russ as inducted only and introducing the griphon works.

sabreu
16-09-2007, 12:46
So true about the Dark Eldar, but an inquisition list would have Space Marines! :angel:

Sovereign
17-09-2007, 06:47
Scouts are, IMHO, a horrible choice to add as Deathwatch roops for an Inquisition Codex.

And while inducted gaurd and space marines are a novel idea, I truly seeing that going out the window since the trend has been to keep everything self contained.

If the rumors for the orks prove true, their loss of looted imperial gaurd tanks is a good indicator that this trend will continue into the inevitable release of the Inquisition codex.
Scouts are good for Deatchwatch, as they differentiate the DW as light vs GK being heavy with Termies - the thing is to have DW be semi-complete.

Inducted Guard and Allied SM aren't novel in the least. They go all of the way back to Rogue Trader, and are *expected* as part of a GK / Inquisitional force. Granted that the previous version gave too many options, but they should still be present in some form.

Also, Inquisition isn't Orks. Inqusitors requisition men and materiel directly from the local / nearby IG forces. Orks loot things and modify them so they're not what they were.

Sovereign
17-09-2007, 07:13
Agreed on the grey knights getting better balanced price wise. However, I don't think they should be balanced out against regular SM, but balanced out against DW.

One thing that seems to have been skimped over though are all the ordo specific rules. How does everyone see those being carried over rulewise?
I htink that GK and DW should both be balanced against SM for power / price. GK are overcosted, and should come down a bit. I see DW as basically ordinary SM, which can be almost completely covered by the regular SM Codex, aside from the Elite Kill Teams.

The Ordo-specific rules should probably go away or else simplify down to a USR for the most part. The Codex is complex enough without having a lot of army rules.

Sovereign
17-09-2007, 07:36
I would go for a griffon

b.) Leman Russ' are symbolic of Gaurd armies. That would kinda be stepping on their turf.
From what I see, Griffon/Basilisk is even more IG-specific, because it has Indirect Ordnance. That's why Chaos lost the Bassie & Indirect Defiler.

Leman Russ should only be available with Inducted Guard.

Salamander is a Guard variant vehicle. It is plenty enough that Inquisitors have access to Land Raiders to denote their power and authority

Sovereign
17-09-2007, 07:45
Maybe they'll work it like they did the fantasy demonic legion with 'True Core' choices, i.e. 0-1 of this unit per True Core choice.
I like this, though I'd prefer to start with the HQs.

For each HQ you pick, you must also take at least 1 Troops of the appropriate type. But that HQ unlocks options for Elite, Fast, Heavy.

From a practical standpoint, presenting separate WH, DH, AH, and then the overall Inquisition master lists might be the best way to express this. Then they would be clear rules-wise. The problem is that this is a 4-in-1 Codex, similar to Armageddon, with the added baggage that they all need to link together.

I totally agree that Inducted Guard / Allied SM should be tied to an Inquisitor Lord.

jhon
17-09-2007, 07:46
as for the death watch captain special gear , i would like something like a super heavy bolter with different type of anmo upgrade..

Korvos
17-09-2007, 08:55
Indirect ordinance isn't something that only IG have. I won't comment on why Chaos lost indirect on the defiler since I don't know why they'd do that. They only lost the basilisk because they lost Iron Warriors specific rules.

Regardless, a Codex: Inquisition needs some sort of heavy support that isn't related to the Chamber Militant or the priests, but is still Imperial. Easiest thing to do would be to adopt a pre-existing Imperial Tank.

How does the HQ unlock the options? Ie You must take the Militant HQ in order to take any other Militant units? What ratio HQ to Troops to other?

I've actually never read the Armageddon codex, only glanced through it a little. The thing is you don't want 4 seperate lists, you want one list that can be used to field 3 Chamber Militants/an Inquisition force/or an Inquisition force with Militant units.

I feel using True Core troops choices would be the best way to accomplish this.

I've been writing out changes I'd like to see done with Codex Inquisition/how it could be done in a word file, atm I have:

Add Griphon (0-1 per Inq True Core taken) to heavy support.

Rites of Exorcism change: All Daemons suffer -1 to their Initiative characteristic while there are Grey Knights on the battlefield. All Daemons attempting to charge Grey Knights must roll dice for their Assault range as if they were moving in difficult ground. (Something needs to be done with this. Daemons don't take Instability tests anymore. This represents the Daemons reacting slowly as they struggle to maintain their form)

Banishment change: Banishment may be used at the beginning of any Assault phase. If successfully manifested all demons in combat with the psyker roll a D6. On a 6 the model suffers 1 wound with no saving throws allowed. (He banishes the demons)

Adjust Churgureon so as can prevent one wound per turn to the Inquisitor or a member of his retinue. (This is for common sense purposes, so that an Inquisitor Lord doesn't need to pay to downgrade his armor in order to benefit from a Chururgeon)

All Henchmen available to all Inquisitors with the following exceptions:
Hierophant Ordo Malleus Inquisitors only.
Penitant Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors only.

New Henchman
Xeno Biologist 15pts Ordo Xenos Inquisitors only.
The Ordo Xenos Inquisitor often employs a researcher or scribe in his retinue to study the different species they encounter. Using this research as a basis the biologist is able to relay to the Inquisitor how different creatures move and attack in close combat or while stalking their prey. With further study, techniques can be developed to mask the presence of the Inquisitor from the vision or detection systems used by various species, as well as revealing methods to avoid being struck by such creatures.
-As long as there is at least one Xeno Biologist in the Inquisitor’s retinue, then the Inquisitor and his retinue gain the Preferred Enemy ability against all Xenos. A Xenos unit suffers -1 to their cover save against shooting done by the Inquisitor or a member of his retinue.
-If there are two or more Xeno Biologists in the Inquisitor’s retinue, any Xenos attempting to hit the Inquisitor or a member of his retinue in close combat cannot hit on better than a 4+. Additionally the Inquisitor and his retinue benefit from +1 to their cover save against any shooting targeted at them by a Xenos unit. If they are not in cover they gain a 6+ cover save.
-Xenos is defined as: Tyranids, Kroot, Eldar (including Dark Eldar), Orks, members of the Tau Empire (excluding Human Auxilaries), and Necrons.

sabreu
17-09-2007, 10:43
Korvos, good ideas. But wouldn't it be a bit beardy to have a Xenos Biologist give an inquisitor -1 to cover saves on all xenos?

Otherwise, liked your other ideas. Mind sharing your word doc? I put mine up.

@ Sovereign

1.) I consider allies novel at best, because keeping the mind frame of a single codex for the inquisition, what need will there be for inducted space marines, especially since the inquisition will have access to them (grey knights, Deathwatch) which can do their jobs significantly better.

2.) Of course Orks aren't inquisition. I was referencing the rumor that their codex will be self contained. They enjoyed looted tanks before, but if the rumors prove true than they won't anymore. If this trend continues, then I saw that as a sign inducted forces would either become completely generic or omitted completely.

3.)Deathwatch, even Kill teams, are still regular space marines. What seperates them from codex marines is there unique weapon loudo uts and ammunition. Grey Knights have a bunch of special rules (which will probably be converted to USR), and I do hope they get rebalanced.

4.) How many gaurd armies do you routinely see with Griffons or Salamanders that aren't armored companies? And then, how many do you see with Leman Russ' and Basalisks?

Korvos
17-09-2007, 11:48
I can't post it as is since I'm writing it out Codex style with rules, statlines, and points >.>

When I get together a filtered copy I'll post it.

Korvos
17-09-2007, 12:49
I need to clean it up still.

I like the not-on-force-org units. I think I'll adopt some of them. Maybe allowing 0-3 Deathcult Assassins per Inquisitor taken or whatnot.

Theres a lot I still need to add. I've been slightly distracted by the Quake Wars demo recently.

Kriegsherr
17-09-2007, 13:28
IF the Adeptus Sororitas units are taken out, and done as a WD article or standalone codex, I agree.

The sisters of battle have too much units to fit into a normal size Inq-codex, and are more of an allied stand-alone army anyway.

The rest COULD fit into a combined Codex, altough I would like to see them beeing still heavy ordo-themed and not simplified as per chaos/eldar codex.

I still think a combined =I= codex will either result in an epic tome a la old 3rd/4th ed chaos codex, or they wouldn't have enough space to do all the imperial agencies and armies they retconned into the Inq-codices justice... I think two codex books would be better, each having 2-3 independent lists in it. One describes the Inquisition, has rules for direct inquisitorial henchmen and the different ordos and the first of the three order militants, maybe the death watch, as they haven't had a real list up until now, while SoB and GK could be still picked from the old 3rd ed codices, until the second book, containing lists for GK and SoB, would comes out

Korvos
17-09-2007, 13:32
Sororitas are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus and so would be included in any Codex: Inquisition.

Kriegsherr
17-09-2007, 13:51
Sororitas are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus and so would be included in any Codex: Inquisition.

Yeah, I know most people live ignorant from the fact that SoB are an indepentant army and of the times when there was a SoB Codex, that contained a pure Ministorum army :rolleyes:

Sure, they're affiliation to the Inquisition won't be dropped by GW in the future, and they will likely appear somewhere in any future =I= codex publications, but they have almost as much units right now as a standalone army and really, you would drop the amount of Sisters players to an even smaller number if you would scrap some of their units to fit everything into one big =I= codex. And scrapping some units is what GW likely will do. Thats the sad part of the whole "one book for all ordos" story... there will be sacrifices made, that will hurt GK and SoB Players dearly... especially the ones that play "pure" armies without =I= stuff in it right now!

Personally I'm not thrilled about the idea of a new =I= book, but then again I wasn't so thrilled about anything SoB related safe the Exorcist rules in codex SoB (aka SoB and Friends (aka Witchhunters :P)) 3rd ed and the cool new SoB Rhino upgrade-sprue since the awesome SoB 2nd ed codex went out of print...

Personally I'd rather see a pure =I= book that really rocks and WD lists for stuff like GK and SoB, with the possiblity to ally them and maybe a plastic set for at least the basic troopers. A WD List would at least mean that they aren't stuffed into another imperial agencies codex forever and that there MIGHT be a standalone codex somewhere down the road if the plastic sets start selling the right-now-niche-armies.

madd0ct0r
17-09-2007, 14:49
Not sure i agree with you there. Witchhunters have got a pretty full codex at the moment but but to be honest dominions, rets and even celestians could just become unit upgrades rather then independant in their own right.
Leaving SoB, Seraphim, immolators and exorcists as the 'pure' forces - not too bad if you ask me.

Repentia I truly hate (the rules, the concept, the seminude models) and they aren't integral to the fluff.
Penitant Engines and Arcoflaggelents needn't be limited to SoB's only

Regarding the idea to make immolators the transport choice - make the flamer an expensive rhino upgrade.
A squad of six plays into the old driveby barbeque to much, while at the same time SoB aren't powerful enough to cut it as less then a 10(wo)man squad.
This fits the increasing emphasis on movement but dosen't lead to dozens of little squads.

Kriegsherr
17-09-2007, 15:01
Not sure i agree with you there. Witchhunters have got a pretty full codex at the moment but but to be honest dominions, rets and even celestians could just become unit upgrades rather then independant in their own right.
Leaving SoB, Seraphim, immolators and exorcists as the 'pure' forces - not too bad if you ask me.

Repentia I truly hate (the rules, the concept, the seminude models) and they aren't integral to the fluff.
Penitant Engines and Arcoflaggelents needn't be limited to SoB's only

Regarding the idea to make immolators the transport choice - make the flamer an expensive rhino upgrade.
A squad of six plays into the old driveby barbeque to much, while at the same time SoB aren't powerful enough to cut it as less then a 10(wo)man squad.
This fits the increasing emphasis on movement but dosen't lead to dozens of little squads.

*raised eyebrow* about the stuffing together of the sisters-on-foot... true to some extend, same can be said about marines-with-heavy-weapons, marines-that-infiltrate-and-get-shiny-gear, and other things in the marines codex.... to be really honest, there is much more difference between the SoB, Dominator and Retributor squad organisation (10-20 squad size sob, mandatory transport for dominators, availability of additional transport option on Dominator/Retributor squads) than between the different marine squad types.

Fact is, its not a problem with to less room on the actual page, its a problem about available options and play testing time... that's why chaos lost all their sub-lists, not because GW couldn't afford the 11 extra pages in the book.

So with all the unit choices stuffed into one codex, there really will be things cut out... granted I don't like the current repentia rules or minis, but insane units like that are integral to make Ministorum Armies unique... and the Arcos and Penitent Engines (and the priests) belong more to the ministorum / SoB side than the =I= side of codex witchhunters, but the sisters themselves should also have their very own "loony"-unit.... even now, there are really important Ministorum units from 2nd edition / the WD List missing (my Redemptionists have no rules in the current SoB list), cutting out even more choices will dull down SoB armies even more.

5 different choices for a pure SoB army are not really acceptable, no way the customizability of the different unit choices will ever make the current 10 different unit entries (counting every single independant SoB dedicated entry in C.WH, leaving the Ministorum and the =I= part out)

Korvos
17-09-2007, 15:08
I don't live ignorant of that fact. I know there used to be a pure SoB codex. Emphasis on the past tense.

I can't imagine how GK would be hurt, they have 1 power armor unit, 1 terminator unit, 1 dreadnought, and 1 land raider. Theres so little theres not much to scrap. Same for Deathwatch. They have one official unit and the ability to upgrade other units.

I don't see why everyone expects them to do away with half of every chamber militant and whatnot. The Codex: Inquisition rumor lists it as sometime in 2010 if I remember right. Thats ~2 years. I choose to remain optimistic and throw out ideas for how I think it'd be done. They could surprise everyone with a really good =][= book that incorporates all three Ordos perfectly.

Sovereign
17-09-2007, 19:07
Repentia I truly hate (the rules, the concept, the seminude models) and they aren't integral to the fluff.

Penitant Engines and Arcoflaggelents needn't be limited to SoB's only
I'm OK with Repentia - they're very cutesy.

I like Penitent Engines and Arco-Flagellants for Inquisitors in general - they're very cool models, and not overly SoB-flavored. Most importantly, they would give pure Inquisition / Inducted Guard armies some necessary HtH punch that they are sorely lacking. In particular, Arco-Flagellants should be unlimited picks, size 5-20. It would be *awesome* to see a tide of 3 mobs of 20 Arco-Flagellants charging across the field.

Sovereign
17-09-2007, 19:33
I know there used to be a pure SoB codex.

I can't imagine how GK would be hurt, they have 1 power armor unit, 1 terminator unit, 1 dreadnought, and 1 land raider.

Same for Deathwatch. They have one official unit and the ability to upgrade other units.

They could surprise everyone with a really good =][= book that incorporates all three Ordos perfectly.
I have this, also. One of the best 2E books from a Fluff standpoint. In the 3E WH book, SoB were expanded for the sake of completeness to fill the FOC chart. SoB are fine as Cannoness, Celestians, Repentia (because of the models), Sisters, Seraphim, and Retributors, with the Immolator as a second Transport option replacing the Razorback. Adding more SoB really isn't necessary. But their Special Rules definitely need someone with a razor to trim back.

The GK are even slimmer, with just the GK Captain, FW Dread, Termies, and Troops. And this is perfectly OK. Unlike the SoB, which are a largish organization that can recruit fairly broadly, GK have historically fought as combined with Inducted Guard or Allied SM, and their troops only recently got the Storm Bolters with the 3E DH book. They could be very well-supported with a BT-style sprue of bitz with heads, weapons, and shoulderpads, relying on Allied SM for the rules.

The DW are nothing but a head, bolter, and shoulderpad at this point in time. Again, all the DW really need is a BT-style bitz sprue. They can rely on Allied SM for their Troops, Fast, and Heavy. Then all they need are the HQ and Elites, which would be Librarians and Kill Teams.

Regardless, GK and DW would be under Inquisitional command. And used this way, GK and DW would be fine as a natural fit in a mixed force.

liggu
18-09-2007, 05:03
I agree with the uprgae sprues to make vanilla marines into GK, i think it would be a wonderful idea, but the GK look quite like they are charging, so the sprue would need new legs, chest plates, weapons, shoulder pads, and heads, and probably also some other ussually useless bits, which somehow get people really excited when they see the sprues, maybe it would be better make whole new sprues, not just upgrade style sprues, and this will get more people interested in inq. and maybe even plastic sisters, and for DW to me it feels like they will only need an upgrae sprue with shoulders weapons and heads.

Korvos
18-09-2007, 05:17
Deathwatch only need an upgrade sprue.

Grey Knights and SoB would need their own sprues. GK models are too different from space marines to use the space marine sprues. You yourself stated they would need:


new legs, chest plates, weapons, shoulder pads, and heads, and probably also some other ussually useless bits

Thats essentially a new model. Backpacks for GKs are already the same sprue as backpacks for marines. Thats the only overlap really.

liggu
19-09-2007, 08:09
lol so true, i was looking at some SOB models, and a thought it would be i bit like eldar, with those same sort of joints.