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codicium_aeternum
16-09-2007, 00:56
ok guys, settle an argument ive been having over a video i made (mostly because i could) and posted on youtube, a guy is saying that the grey knights ARE inquisition and im saying that they sometimes work with them as the militant arm of the ordo mallues, and like the sororitas, who are the militant arm of the ordo hereticus, are not actual inquisition members, i remember in grey knights, the master of the grey knights is made an honorary inquisition inner circle member... but only honorary...

whos right?

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 01:00
My impression is, that like all Astartes forces, the Grey Knights can choose to work with the Inquisition when they want to.

That being said, the Grey Knights seem to be more likely to say "Yes" than anyone outside of the Deathwatch.

Dio´Ra
16-09-2007, 01:04
they are the chamber militant of the ordo malleus....so you are on the right side....they are NOT the inquisition themselves.....and the grey knights origins are older then the inquisition....

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 03:02
They're the Ordo Malleus work force whenever Storm Troopers aren't enough. They can't ever say no. All they exist for is to be the final line of defence against the Daemon.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 03:14
They're the Ordo Malleus work force whenever Storm Troopers aren't enough. They can't ever say no. All they exist for is to be the final line of defence against the Daemon.

Of course they can say no...the Grey Knights are the Grey Knights. They may be the most whipped of all the Astartes in terms of relations to the Imperium, but when one wants to call in Marines to wipe out other Marines, they call in the Knights.

It would be a DAUNTING prospect for the Imperium to attack the Grey Knights.

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 03:26
... Wait, what.

A 1000 men.
Completely centralized around obliterating Daemons.
The Chamber Militant of an Ordo completely contralized around obliterating Daemons.

... And they're called upon to fight rogue Space Marines?

Wow, where have I been in the last five minutes?

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 03:28
... Wait, what.

A 1000 men.
Completely centralized around obliterating Daemons.
The Chamber Militant of an Ordo completely contralized around obliterating Daemons.

... And they're called upon to fight rogue Space Marines?

Wow, where have I been in the last five minutes?

Obviously not within the GW universe.

First of all, the Grey Knights are not a "1000" man chapter, they are significantly larger than that - more than a 1000, less than the ~6000 of the Black Templars.

And, yes, when Rogue Space Marines are suspected of traitorous/chaotic leaning, it is often an Ordo Malleus inquistional group, spearheaded by large groups of Grey Knights that lead the "inspection."

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 03:40
I request a canon reference to both the dealings with rogue space marines and the over-1000 chapter-size. I've never seen anything hinting at either.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 03:44
Hopefully someone else can help...I know that both things I claimed were true, but I don't have the sources on hand that go with them.

Any fluff masters got the references on their computer?

deathwing_marine
16-09-2007, 03:54
Ever heard of the Fire Hawks?

Pretty sure the Knights massacred them.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 03:57
I found some stuff...

From the GW website:

On the mutated Flame Falcons:

"Upon the successful completion of the campaign, the Flame Falcons returned to Lethe in celebrant mood convinced, as they were, that their unique ability was a manifestation of the Emperor's grace. Soon after, the Grey Knights, at the Inquisition's behest assaulted Lethe, ruthlessly destroying the cursed chapter. It is thought that a small number of Flame Falcons escaped that day, but of their fate, nothing whatsoever is known."

As to the numbers:

This Lexicanum article lists their numbers at around 3000.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 03:57
Ever heard of the Fire Hawks?

Pretty sure the Knights massacred them.

Actually, the Fire Hawks are now the Legion of the Damned.

deathwing_marine
16-09-2007, 03:58
Nevermind, I meant the Flame Falcons
heres the link: http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/cursed/3/

EDIT: wow Ktotwf, you posted all that while I was looking for the article :D

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 03:59
Hm. Interesting. Thought that they would be fair too valuable to waste on simple mutants. Isn't that the Hereticus area of expertise anyway?

Iracundus
16-09-2007, 04:01
The Grey Knights got the task presumably because it was felt to be a daemonic or Chaos source rather than just simple mutation or heresy.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 04:05
I think there is also a sense that the Grey Knights are the most trustworthy of all Astartes (which they probably are.)

They are sort of the "Teacher's Pet" Astartes chapter, most likely created from the geneseed of the big guy himself.

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 04:10
They're also the most specialized Chapter out there and could've been killing the threat they were made to kill when they were ordered by the professor to kill some mutated Marines. Nothing is hinted at all about Daemonic possession or Chaos causing it. It's just a crazy mutation.

Iracundus
16-09-2007, 04:17
The Ordo Malleus's area of responsibility covers only the daemonic, else that is treading on the Ordo Hereticus territory, and the Grey Knights specifically are a chamber militant of the Malleus only. Also mutations don't lead to overtly supernatural things like flames.

The Grey Knights are rare enough that they aren't the ones that get called on to deal with everday heresy. Marines suddenly en masse showing such unnatural manifestations that have no physical explanation would naturally be suspect for Chaos influence even if the article doesn't explicitly spell it out. The fact it was the Grey Knights and not ordinary Marines or Sisters that were called upon strongly shows what was on the Inquisition's mind.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 04:20
The Ordo Malleus's area of responsibility covers only the daemonic, else that is treading on the Ordo Hereticus territory, and the Grey Knights specifically are a chamber militant of the Malleus only. Also mutations don't lead to overtly supernatural things like flames.

It isn't as though the Grey Knights ONLY fight demons...it is what they are best at obviously, but every member of the Inquisition is responsible in some small way for countering Aliens, Heretics, and Demons wherever they find them.


The Grey Knights are rare enough that they aren't the ones that get called on to deal with everday heresy. Marines suddenly en masse showing such unnatural manifestations that have no physical explanation would naturally be suspect for Chaos influence even if the article doesn't explicitly spell it out. The fact it was the Grey Knights and not ordinary Marines or Sisters that were called upon strongly shows what was on the Inquisition's mind.

Space Marines suspected of turning to Heresy en masse is not "everyday", and I gather that the Grey Knights were called upon NOT just because the influence was suspected to be Chaotic, but also because the Grey Knights are BETTER than your average Marine, and more likely to be able to deal with Heretical SM's either way.

Iracundus
16-09-2007, 04:22
Re-read your background. Grey Knights ONLY fight daemons or suspected daemonic influence. That is all their training centers around and it is their sole role. The Daemonhunter's Codex gives reasons for why a 40K force might be fighting other races but if you look at the reasons, it still comes down to essentially daemonic influence.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 04:25
Re-read your background. Grey Knights ONLY fight daemons or suspected daemonic influence. That is all their training centers around and it is their sole role. The Daemonhunter's Codex gives reasons for why a 40K force might be fighting other races but if you look at the reasons, it still comes down to essentially daemonic influence.

Where does it say that they ONLY fight Daemons? I can understand being TRAINED to fight Daemons, but the example I already gave shows that they are capable of defeating Mutants as well.

To take the view that members of the Ordo Malleus ONLY deal with daemonic matters is simply untrue - its what they specialize in, and deal with 98% of the time, BUT Inquisitors, regardless of branch, are required to deal with threats to the Imperium wherever they find them.

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 04:26
Every member of the Inquisition is responsible for destroying whatever it comes across that is against the Imperium. However, they need a good reason to grab the Knights. They can't just go "Ups, there's a hivefleet. Grey Knights ahoy!". They're meant for Daemonic influence - which I suppose is kinda true - no normal mutant bursts out in flames.

After all, there's the "Excuses for Fighting" section in the Daemonhunters book for a reason.

Iracundus
16-09-2007, 04:34
We aren't talking about Inquisitors. We're talking Grey Knights. They only fight daemons or daemonic/warp influence. The example you gave is them fighting suspected daemonic influence already. Grey Knights aren't called to fight anything else. Go read the Daemohunters Codex more carefully. Every single reason in the back on why they'd fight a certain race has some bearing on the warp, psychic stuff, or Chaos influence, even if it's only suspected. Nobody said the Inquisition has to be right all the time but their rationale for calling the Grey Knights has to be at least on the grounds of some warp related matter, not just simple mutation or heresy.

Sojourner
16-09-2007, 09:48
Indeed, Grey Knights destroy daemons and incidents of daemonic possession or contamination. They could be called in to destroy a rogue Chapter if there was a significant risk of daemonic manifestation if threatened. It's probable, however, that they don't handle more mundane work to do with daemons, like purification, binding, purging and geomantic analysis, unless they're around at the time. That's what the Ordo Malleus as a whole are for - the Grey Knights are for fighting.

winter has ended
16-09-2007, 09:59
erm im pretty sure they would fight other races without them having any kind of daemon related thing going on,
because if the tau attack them when they are flying around etc theyd fight back
they wouldnt just stand there going "ohhh they arnt daemons we have no idea how to fight them "

Sojourner
16-09-2007, 10:09
erm im pretty sure they would fight other races without them having any kind of daemon related thing going on,
because if the tau attack them when they are flying around etc theyd fight back
they wouldnt just stand there going "ohhh they arnt daemons we have no idea how to fight them "

They'd have no reason to be anywhere nearby. In the unlikely event that they were intercepted then yes obviously they;d fight their way out. Remember that needless risk and waste of life is a mortal sin for a Space Marine.

DantesInferno
16-09-2007, 10:12
erm im pretty sure they would fight other races without them having any kind of daemon related thing going on,
because if the tau attack them when they are flying around etc theyd fight back
they wouldnt just stand there going "ohhh they arnt daemons we have no idea how to fight them "

No, they'd probably just pull back altogether, unless it was really really important. Think about the absolutely massive expense the Imperium goes to to train and equip just one single Grey Knight.

They're so specialised and so important that they can't just be wasted on trivial stuff that Guardsmen, or even other Astartes can do.

BTW, the Flame Falcons and Relictors are the two chapters we know about that the Grey Knights have purged.

bertcom1
16-09-2007, 10:41
In game terms, I think the Grey Knights should have had WS4 and Preferred Enemy (Daemons/Chaos), rather than WS5. This should have made them cheaper and thus more viable as well, and I think it fits better with background, they are a force primarily for fighting daemons and similar.

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 10:47
Bertcom1, the problem with that is that then they would only ever be anti-Daemon in that case. Although they primarily fight Daemons, in the TT, they fight anyone and everyone, with or without Lore reasons.

bertcom1
16-09-2007, 11:04
So a 20point (35 for Justicar) fearless Marine with 2 attacks (thanks to true grit), S6 weaponry, and some protection from psychic powers and extreme long range weapons (shrouding), wouldn't ever be used in game, except against Chaos forces?

Virus
16-09-2007, 11:15
DantesInferno is right, the Grey Knights did hit the relictors Fortress Monastery. Also the Grey Knights are definetely an Independant Chapter, they are specificaly mentioned as such in the novel Grey Knights. They just tend to agree with the Malleus as it is the best way to stop Daemonic nastiness happening to the Imperium.

DantesInferno
16-09-2007, 11:20
So a 20point (35 for Justicar) fearless Marine with 2 attacks (thanks to true grit), S6 weaponry, and some protection from psychic powers and extreme long range weapons (shrouding), wouldn't ever be used in game, except against Chaos forces?

Not unless the Grey Knights have absolutely no choice about it whatsoever. Precisely because the Grey Knights are so good, they can't be wasted on standard stuff other Astartes can handle. Unless there's suspected Daemonic intervention at play, the Grey Knights won't get anywhere near it, simply because they're too valuable to be risked in those conditions.

That's why the justifications are suggested in the DH Codex (and some of them are pretty implausible for getting the Grey Knights involved, I think).

EDIT: Think about it this way. Suppose I have two laptops, and I need to type something up at uni. Unfortunately, there's a slim but non-negligible chance that either one of my laptops will get damaged or stolen on the way in. Should I take in my super-incredible expensive laptop which I usually use for NASA supercomputing stuff, but can also run Word, or should I take in my standard, everyday laptop which runs Word pretty much exactly the same?

A fairly long-winded analogy, but I hope you see the point.

bertcom1
16-09-2007, 12:20
Not unless the Grey Knights have absolutely no choice about it whatsoever. Precisely because the Grey Knights are so good, they can't be wasted on standard stuff other Astartes can handle. Unless there's suspected Daemonic intervention at play, the Grey Knights won't get anywhere near it, simply because they're too valuable to be risked in those conditions.

That's why the justifications are suggested in the DH Codex (and some of them are pretty implausible for getting the Grey Knights involved, I think).

Chilltouch seemed to be suggesting that without WS5, Grey knights wouldn't be viable except in games against chaos forces. I suggest that their abilities and equipment should make them viable in games against other forces, especially since they would be cheaper.

Axel
16-09-2007, 12:48
Afaik the Grey Knights are indeed a seperate order, and not under command of the inquisition. They cooperate, they do not obey, but they do so without reservations.