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RedStompa
16-09-2007, 02:22
I have a hypothetical question:

What if (for whatever reason, use your imagination) there was a lul in the fighting for every race other then chaos.... Would the full might of the imperium be enough to enter the eye of terror and purge every traitor legion there, and persure other legions like the Red Corsairs and wipe them out as well?

Obviously the loss of life and corruption would be hideous, and assuming all corruption was continuously purged on this crusade, would the Imperium of man be able to wipe the traitor legions\ chaos cults from existance?

could they do the same thing to the Eldar/dark eldar if they tracked them with the full might of the Imperium? What about the tyranids? Could they be stopped?

I know that if the Imperium went against the Tau they would utterly annhilate them... obviously the same stund wouldnt work against the orks...

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 03:11
If given an absolute free hand, I imagine the Imperium could focus their might and wipe out any other race, besides the Orks and Tyranids.

The Orks because they are SO numerous, and really the threat level is usually not so bad (bad but manageable), and the Tyranids simply because the main Tyranid base is extragalactic and not a place the Imperium could get to.

The Tau would go, the Eldar/Dark Eldar might go, assuming that the Imperium could get to the Craftworlds/Commoragh, and the Eye of Terror would probably be difficult but doable - but it would be insanely bloody, and probably bleed the Imperium white.

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 03:15
I'd say it's quite impossible. It's Chaos territory. Chaos knows its way around those parts. Chaos controls those parts. They could conjure billions and billions of demons due to the rift and tear apart every vessel that went too deep. The very mutated worlds themselves that inhabit the Eye of Terror could simply reach up and grind the greatest battleships into slag with teeth of mountains and saliva of magma.

Trying to find and kill all the Eldar would be like coating your hands in grease, coating a fish in grease, diving into a pool of grease with the fish, and trying to catch said fish with your hands. It'd always slip out. You might think you've got it but at that last moment, it escapes. However, like any fish in a pool of grease - it'd die over a period of time with or without aid.

And, as for Tyranids, it's like wrestling a beached shark in the first place. Now, try to hunt them down and kill them all. You're jumping in a pool of sharks and you're stained with blood. You'd be torn to shreds as soon as you left the boundaries of the Imperium. No back-up. No support. It's completely unknown to you, and you're in their backdoor.

Ironsides
16-09-2007, 03:22
I imagine that the imperium would be unable to bring its numerical superiority to bear in the EoT. If space marines can be corrupted by Chaos far from the Eye, Can you imagine what would happen if billions of weak-minded guardsmen were to attempt an invasion?

RedStompa
16-09-2007, 03:24
"The very mutated worlds themselves that inhabit the Eye of Terror could simply reach up and grind the greatest battleships into slag with teeth of mountains and saliva of magma."

I doubt 'billions and billions' could be summoned without a considerable loss of life for chaos psykers/sorcerors.... I'm not suggesting that you actually land on any of these planets.. blast the hell out of them untill their just asteroid belts... most ships are protected with strong enough wards to keep daemons out and I would imagine you could set up some sort of field in ships with psykers or something.

I also doubt that the legions have enough favor with the four powers to summon that many daemons...

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 03:25
I imagine that the imperium would be unable to bring its numerical superiority to bear in the EoT. If space marines can be corrupted by Chaos far from the Eye, Can you imagine what would happen if billions of weak-minded guardsmen were to attempt an invasion?

I imagine that there is a big difference between sort of "personal" encounters with Chaos, and encounters with Chaos wherein your only interaction is Exterminatus-ing their planets, or fighting in the trillions with the sanction of the God-Emperor.

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 03:32
The billions and billions of Daemons was an over-exaggeration, I admit - and who says they land? We're talking about living planets here that don't obey the laws of physics. If anything tries to Exterminatus them, they could probably just whip it out of the sky with various tentacles.

But, the Legions have enough favour as Chaos' finest soldiers to defend themselves as best as they can. And we're not talking about regular warp portals, we're talking about a rip in reality at least tens of thousands of square lightyears large. I'm sure that it would be quite possible for Daemons to make their own entrances, not even requiring summoning at that stage - although the transition from true Warp to 90% warp-saturated reality would leave them slightly instable and weakened.

Ironsides
16-09-2007, 03:36
I'm not suggesting that the guardsmen would choose (or even be tempted) to turn, merely that their weak, unshielded minds would be thoroughly blasted and/or corrupted.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 03:38
I'm not suggesting that the guardsmen would choose (or even be tempted) to turn, merely that their weak, unshielded minds would be thoroughly blasted and/or corrupted.

I dunno...I mean, I feel like it is the equivalent of going in to Mordor in LOTR.

If you go in by yourself, its scary as hell, and you may end up twisted to the will of Sauron/Chaos. If you go in with a nice shiny army along with you, then you'll be alright.

I'm sure the Imperium could devise a way to protect its soldiers in large numbers against the horrible effects of Chaos...

I mean, after all, Imperial Guardsmen fight Chaos all the time, and they seem to either die horribly, or be alright for the most part.

Ironsides
16-09-2007, 03:44
I dunno...I mean, I feel like it is the equivalent of going in to Mordor in LOTR.

If you go in by yourself, its scary as hell, and you may end up twisted to the will of Sauron/Chaos. If you go in with a nice shiny army along with you, then you'll be alright.

I think the difference is that reality merges with the warp in the Eye. In the fluff it seems that even a bonded psyker like an astropath keels over gibbering whenever there is even a small warp storm. I don't even want to imagine what would happen if the actually went into the Eye.:D

Green-is-best
16-09-2007, 03:44
The thing is that warfare is ultimately a battle of economies, not men and technology. And with the sheer number of resources and population strength that the Imperium has, it must be the economic of the hill. So, as slippery as the Eldar may be, they'll eventually be cornered by overwhelming numbers of Imperial ships. No matter how nasty the Tyranids are on a planet by planet basis, their only source of reinforcement is hundreds of thousands of light years away. Fighting them with the resources of a single planet might be wrestling a shark on the beach, but fighting them with the economy of 10,000 planets is like shooting fish in a barrel. The only question mark is really Chaos. Within the Eye their forces don't adhere to the rules of the material universe, so things are very different. However, the Imperium could most certainly make sure nothing ever enters or leaves the Eye ever again.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 03:46
I think the difference is that reality merges with the warp in the Eye. In the fluff it seems that even a bonded psyker like an astropath keels over gibbering whenever there is even a small warp storm. I don't even want to imagine what would happen if the actually went into the Eye.:D


But there ARE instances in the Fluff (I think, this is very faint memory for me) of raids and attacks into the Eye that have done alright, and not everyone becomes some twisted, gibbering Chaos freak.

Ironsides
16-09-2007, 03:46
@ktotwf P.S.: I was following the Emperor's Fluff thread and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 03:51
A single hivefleet without reinforcement was enough to almost destroy an entire sector, namely Ultramar. I doubt they could be taken out on their own turf.

RedStompa
16-09-2007, 03:53
What? Of course the Imperium wouldn't attack the Tyranids.... would probably draw more of them towards the galaxy... or speed up their travel time.

Ironsides
16-09-2007, 03:55
Since the hive fleets are 100% organic, virus bombs might make a dent.

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 03:57
As stated on the Hive Fleet BFG PDF file, they tried that.

A week later, it vomitted the virus right back at them.

Green-is-best
16-09-2007, 03:58
A single hivefleet without reinforcement was enough to almost destroy an entire sector, namely Ultramar. I doubt they could be taken out on their own turf.

Yes, but the key to whole theme of the game is that the Imperium is pulled in too many directions at the same time. In that particular scenario, a force of 1,000 space marines plus naval support was able to stop the entire hivefleet. Sure, the Tyranids did considerable damage to sparsely defended systems, but when they met the Imperial war machine in earnest, they were crushed. Were the Imperium able to focus its power ala the Great Crusade, it would be simply unstoppable.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 04:00
True- if a single Space Marine chapter can destroy a Hive Fleet, simply by using impressive static defense tactics, then the Tyranids aren't much of a threat to the Imperium at large.

Where the Tyranids do seem to be formidable is at striking at weak points where little defense is to be had.

Ironsides
16-09-2007, 04:00
oops! I stand corrected on that point.

But isn't exterminatus used to cleanse worlds with Genestealer cults? ( I vaguely recall mention of this in fluff but can't remember the source):eyebrows:

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 04:01
Were Chaos able to focus its power, it would be unstoppable.
Were the Orks able to focus their power, they would be unstoppable.
Were the Tyranids able to focus their power, they would be unstoppable.

EDIT: Said hive fleet was also worn down by having consumed about the quarter of the sector by the time it arrive at Mah Craggie.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 04:03
But isn't exterminatus used to cleanse worlds with Genestealer cults? ( I vaguely recall mention of this in fluff but can't remember the source):eyebrows:

Exterminatus is used when a planet is so corrupted or when there is so much enemy strength there, that it is better to just cut your losses and destroy rather than to engage on the ground.

It can be carried out either by virus bombs, lance strikes, nuclear bombardment...and I think I am forgetting another way.

Anyway, Exterminatus is particularly helpful against the Tyranids. Standard strategy is to lure as many buggers on to a planet as possible, and then blow it up, killing billions if not trillions in one go.

If this is combined with some good old fashioned space attacks, you have a rather effective method for halting the Tyranids.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 04:03
EDIT: Said hive fleet was also worn down by having consumed about the quarter of the sector by the time it arrive at Mah Craggie.

Ummm...consuming planets makes the Hive Fleets STRONGER, not weaker.

Ironsides
16-09-2007, 04:06
I was only familiar with the virus/firestorm method wherein all the gasses released by the decomposing organic matter of the planet are ignited by lance strikes. I assumed (wrongly as usual:D) that this meant the virus could be used against tyranid superconstructs like the hive fleets.

RedStompa
16-09-2007, 04:06
"Were Chaos able to focus its power, it would be unstoppable".

dosent seem to work all that well for them after 13 tries? more? Cause chaos are a bunch of annoying whiners in power armor that complain that the Cadians are camping their only spawnpont.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 04:07
Yeah, Chaos has focused all their power 13 times, and lost every time...so...

The Tyranids, by their very nature, don't focus all their power, because their purpose is not FIGHTING, but eating. It would be stupid to concentrate all of the world's cattle in one grassfield wouldn't it?

Ironsides
16-09-2007, 04:14
GW has suggested that Abbaddon is achieving minor objectives ( acquisition of Blackstones for example) with each Black Crusade. Presumably he is plotting an uber-crusade.

Green-is-best
16-09-2007, 04:15
Were Chaos able to focus its power, it would be unstoppable.
Were the Orks able to focus their power, they would be unstoppable.
Were the Tyranids able to focus their power, they would be unstoppable.

True, but of those the Imperium actually has the potential to do that, where as Orks and Chaos are quintessentially fractious and acrimonious.



EDIT: Said hive fleet was also worn down by having consumed about the quarter of the sector by the time it arrive at Mah Craggie.

Isn't consuming things supposed to make Nids stronger not weaker?

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 04:16
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Its pretty *******' improbable to believe that Chaos can't cut out of one small sector of space, but all the sudden, once they get rid of a few monoliths, they are gonna go a rampagin' all over the galaxy.

I think the fact of the matter is that the whole Imperium vs. Chaos matter was settled when the Emperor slew Horus...the Chaos Marines are just to bitter to accept it.

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 04:17
By Chaos working together, I mean all of the Gods working under one banner, together, all of their Legions moving as one - not just Abaddon's golden boys.

Also, according to some source, hive fleets can barely carry any of resources taken from a planet according to their size, the amount of resources and our good friend physics. I doubt they just give birth to new ships while sucking up the resources otherwise the hive fleets would be undefeatable they would be so huge. Which, leads me to think they probably send the resources back to some central base somewhere to make more hive fleets.

I can't remember the story completely - did the hivefleet just grind to a halt at Mah Craggie and vanish? If so, how?

Ironsides
16-09-2007, 04:22
All monoliths aside, the Blackstone fortresses are supposed to be ridiculously powerful artifacts posessed by Slaanesh. Remember how Eldrad set foot on one and had his soul ripped screaming from his body to be tormented by Slaanesh for all eternity?

Green-is-best
16-09-2007, 04:31
By Chaos working together, I mean all of the Gods working under one banner, together, all of their Legions moving as one - not just Abaddon's golden boys.

As Ktokwf said, wouldn't that just be rehashing the Heresy except without two demi-gods leading their respective armies? Oh, and the Traitor Legions would be at a fraction of their original strength while the Imperial Forces would probably be somewhat stronger.


Also, according to some source, hive fleets can barely carry any of resources taken from a planet according to their size, the amount of resources and our good friend physics. I doubt they just give birth to new ships while sucking up the resources otherwise the hive fleets would be undefeatable they would be so huge. Which, leads me to think they probably send the resources back to some central base somewhere to make more hive fleets.

I can't remember the story completely - did the hivefleet just grind to a halt at Mah Craggie and vanish? If so, how?

No, Kraken was completely destroyed when the flagship of the Imperial fleet detonated its warp drives in the heart of the hive fleet. Leviathan was destroyed at Iyanden.

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 04:36
Oh wait - the Chaos uniting thing is only meant to count for WHFB. Forget that.

Nargrakhan
16-09-2007, 04:40
Cause chaos are a bunch of annoying whiners in power armor that complain that the Cadians are camping their only spawnpont.

Thanks... you just made me spit Coke out in laughter all over my monitor. :)

Green-is-best
16-09-2007, 04:41
Oh wait - the Chaos uniting thing is only meant to count for WHFB. Forget that.

I don't follow...

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 04:43
WHFB's Chaos forces share animosity for each other. Yet when all of the times tribes are meant to unite under one banner, with the cultists from every culture joining them, there's meant to be able to take over the world and so on and so forth.

Anyway, I guess Chaos is destined to try to win, but never actually win.

Green-is-best
16-09-2007, 04:47
WHFB's Chaos forces share animosity for each other. Yet when all of the times tribes are meant to unite under one banner, with the cultists from every culture joining them, there's meant to be able to take over the world and so on and so forth.

Anyway, I guess Chaos is destined to try to win, but never actually win.

Ah, ok thanks. :D

Yeah, I think since 40k fluff is written by people for people, humanity will ultimately win the day over everyone else through some deus ex machina. Assuming the timeline ever moves forward, that is... (Yes plz GW KKTHXBAI)

RedStompa
16-09-2007, 04:55
Yes. That is the Chaos way. Try to win while spouting some seemingly profound chaos-logic as your fellow tac marines die in extreemly bloody/funny ways. Their souls go to the gods to be eaten and yet they are happy.


Originally Posted by RedStompa
Cause chaos are a bunch of annoying whiners in power armor that complain that the Cadians are camping their only spawnpont.
Thanks... you just made me spit Coke out in laughter all over my monitor.

Its moments like these that I'm glad these aren't face to face conversations..;)

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 05:08
Ah, ok thanks. :D

Yeah, I think since 40k fluff is written by people for people, humanity will ultimately win the day over everyone else through some deus ex machina. Assuming the timeline ever moves forward, that is... (Yes plz GW KKTHXBAI)


In that way, 40k is hugely different than WHFB, where everyone is destined to lose.

Essentially, in WHFB Chaos is THE BAD GUY (trademark GW), whereas in WH40k, Chaos is one of the Bad Guys, and not the most threatening of them either.

Outlaw289
16-09-2007, 05:42
I dunno...I mean, I feel like it is the equivalent of going in to Mordor in LOTR.

One does not simply pilot their battle barge into Mordor :cheese:

Green-is-best
16-09-2007, 07:06
One does not simply pilot their battle barge into Mordor :cheese:

You do if you are a Marine of the Sons of Baggins chapter! :o

RedStompa
16-09-2007, 18:27
well could the traitor legions be drawn OUT of the eye and then eliminated?

would they work well or not?

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 18:43
How could that be done?

codicium_aeternum
16-09-2007, 18:46
well, lets think about this...

10 of the 20 original legions went traitor... thats only 100,000 or a million depending on how many is in each legion... plus the traitor admech's plus cultists,

10 remaining SM legions, splintered into chapters, getting larger and larger, new chapters, billions of imperial guardsmen and the remaining admechs...

if you look at the numbers, in normal space, chaos would lose, in the eye the imperium would lose... its the whole, "wear them down build them up" thing... you cant kill chaos... without commiting mass hari kari on everything living... ala the necrons...

everyone else barr the nids would be toast if the imperium was free to do as it pleased

jb85
16-09-2007, 19:08
Also, according to some source, hive fleets can barely carry any of resources taken from a planet according to their size, the amount of resources and our good friend physics. I doubt they just give birth to new ships while sucking up the resources otherwise the hive fleets would be undefeatable they would be so huge. Which, leads me to think they probably send the resources back to some central base somewhere to make more hive fleets.

I can't remember the story completely - did the hivefleet just grind to a halt at Mah Craggie and vanish? If so, how?

Hivefleet Behemoth had its first major engagement with Imperial forces at Macragge. Inquisitor Kryptmann managed to get word to the Imperium about the threat giving the Ultramarines time to recall all their forces. Calgar left the planet undefended to draw the Hivefleet onto the planetary defence batteries. The UM fleet launched an attack on the Hivefleet, with planet side fighters managing to take down the largest ship disrupting the Hivemindís control.

The Tyranids then launched an assault on the polar fortresses while the Hivefleet feel back to regroup. At this point an Imperial fleet of 200 ships arrived from the Segmentum fleet base at Bakka intercepting the Hivefleet at Circe, eventually destroying it after the Dominus Astra triggered its warp drives in the centre of the Hivefleet, drawing most of the Tyranid ships into a warp vortex. The remaining ships returned to Macragge, with the 3rd and 7th companies despatched in the fastest remaining ships to relieve the polar fortresses. The Tyranid Hivefleet (1000 ships) was wiped out, as was the UM 1st company and the bulk of the Imperial Navy fleet, along with heavy damage to the UM fleet.

As for the Hivefleets they do give birth to new ships, probably when in deep space transit. I doubt they did it while they where in the Ultramar system, but remember Behemoth only attacked one planet, Prandium, prior to hitting Macragge.

Chilltouch
16-09-2007, 19:34
What Tyranids do to planets is so devestating that worlds actually shrink, often by about 10%, until they are sucked dry of all valuable resources. No hive fleet would really be able to carry billions of tyranids and all of the resources of a single planet at the same time. So if they do convert these resources into new ships, at what pace to do they do it?

The_Outsider
16-09-2007, 19:44
The Imperium could crush any other force in the galaxy (logistics aside) except the one force that actually doesn't try: Necrons.

Considering the Necrons have utterly crushed far more powerul races than humanity I doubt even the Imperium could stand upto the entire military might of the Necron race.

This is why the Necrons are "slowly waking" and not "coming for your species and leaving no survivors".

Erebus26
16-09-2007, 19:55
If chaos ever overrun the cadian gate then the imperium would be in a real tight spot for the first time since the heresy. Although the fact the GW won't let that happen is why the imperium keeps surviving against the odds! :D

stormblade
16-09-2007, 20:01
The Imperium could crush any other force in the galaxy (logistics aside) except the one force that actually doesn't try: Necrons.

Considering the Necrons have utterly crushed far more powerul races than humanity I doubt even the Imperium could stand upto the entire military might of the Necron race.

This is why the Necrons are "slowly waking" and not "coming for your species and leaving no survivors".

- You'd have to wake them up first and since Eldar and a certain percentage of Ordo Xenos stands constant vigilance over them they might even get killed in their sleep so to say.

On the other races:

There are even more orks than humans and they are averagely tougher so I am not so certain about IoM destroying them

Eldar might be hunted down in due time

Tau are fair game

Imperium doesn't have the necessary technology to stop chaos- only C'tan might be able to do such a thing- purhaps through further study of Necrons and pariah gene IoM could achive victory over the foul warp spawns(although at what coast)

Grimtuff
16-09-2007, 20:22
All monoliths aside, the Blackstone fortresses are supposed to be ridiculously powerful artifacts posessed by Slaanesh. Remember how Eldrad set foot on one and had his soul ripped screaming from his body to be tormented by Slaanesh for all eternity?

No they're not. They are the Talismans of Vaul, weapons originally created by the Eldar to destroy C'tan.

ONE (of the 2 or 3 remaining) Talisman was possessed by some kind of Slaaneshi entity, not all of them.

downundercadet07
16-09-2007, 20:27
I think the Imperium could wipe out everyone but Chaos, Tyranids, Eldar and the Orks.

Chaos can't really be beat because it spawns off of humanity itself. Until the Emperor comes back and shepherds humans into the next stage of their evolutionary development, they will always feed chaos with their very existence.

I think the Imperium would have a hard time knocking down the Tyranids because they don't have a solid idea of how many their are. Furthermore, they have no idea where the ones that haven't penetrated the galaxy are located. That said, I think that the Imperium will continually get better and better at fighting nids, until each hive fleet incursion isn't as big of a deal as it is now.

Orks are a similar problem. They have settlements outside of the galaxy. The Imperium doesn't seem to have the capability to leave the galaxy, so there will always be some korks running around. I think it is on the outside edge of possibility for them to eradicate all the orks in this galaxy, but that would be incredibly unlikely. It also would not be strategically sound, as the orks make a nice little tarpit for whatever else nasty is around the corner.

The eldar would just be too difficult to track. If worst comes to worst and all the craftworlds are located and destroyed (which in itself is not possible), surviving eldar could blend into the human population. They wouldn't like it at all, but if it was that or get eaten up as a species, they would use their tech and get it done.

So really, that leaves the dark Eldar, the Necrons, and the Tau. The Imperium could krump all of them, with the tau being the easiest, then the dark Eldar, and then the Necrons.

Dark Eldar-- Commoraggah is in a fixed location, and at least a few people in the Imperium know where it is already. Additionally, it isn't really a fortress. I'm sure that it has defenses, but they are no where near as elaborate as some other places which the Imperium has ground into powder. After you've taken out their capital, the Dark Eldar are pretty self-destructive, so leave them to their own devices, and once broken apart, they'll go extinct.

Tau-- Tau are probably a lot like many of the races which humanity crushed in the Great Crusade. Drop a million space marines and a few trillion guardsmen into the hundred or so Tau-inhabited words, and they'll fold. The codex as much as says this.

Necrons-- Yeah their tech is sick and they are immortal warriors. But, they are insanely reliant on the C'tan. Without the very, very, few surviving C'tan, the Necrons fall off the threat index pretty much all together. Nailing the nightbringer and the dragon (most likely by bodily casting them into the warp, which the Imperium has the ability to do) wouldn't be exorbitantly difficult if the entire might of humanity could focus on it (and the dragon was on Mars, as seems to be the idea). Then, cleaning up the isolated, separated Necron forces on the tomb worlds and trashing the machines which allow them to ressurect would become possible, as they could be attacked piecemeal without their upper leadership. Sure, a tomb world might be tough, but again, if you drop a MILLION space marines and THOUSANDS of titans on it, it is going to die. Plus, who have the necrons 'utterly crushed'? They couldn't put the Eldar down for the count when the panzees were still using Illiad-level technology. Not really impressive. Especially when it is hinted at that the great crusade blasted a few Tomb Worlds with far fewer resources than we are talking about here. The hard part is finding them, but they seem to be revealing themselves more and more.

The_Outsider
16-09-2007, 21:31
Necron stuff.

Necrons + C'tan wiped out the Old Ones and wiped the galaxy bare of life (relatively) beofre the enslaver plague.

You also assume Necrons would engage in a single mega siege - i ifnd thta unlikely its not their way of war.

Typically they would use their far far superior starships to cripple supply routes, communication systems, early warning systems etc.

They would give the Imperium the run around and annihilate them piecemeal.

Then you are assuming Necrons only use what the army list has, not factoring in their star destroying weapons.


Short answer, Necron fluff is written so they can utterly destroy entire star systems on a whim.

Put it this way, ever read the book Nightbringer? 4 necron warriors (thats right, 4) took out msot of a dark eldar archon's retinue and a number of space marines and even then they weren't put down for good.

4 Necron warriors vs about 20 opponents and they were only just beaten.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 21:36
Two things about the Necrons:

1. Several of the Tomb Planets have already been destroyed - meaning the loss of hundreds of thousands if not millions of irreplaceable warriors.

2. For all their hype, the Necrons can be killed just like anything else (if you blow it dead enough). Meaning they CAN be defeated, and they are outnumbered HUGELY.

If the Imperium could develop a way to effectively locate their Tomb Worlds more consistently, the Necrons would effectively be crippled.

The_Outsider
16-09-2007, 21:42
Two things about the Necrons:

1. Several of the Tomb Planets have already been destroyed - meaning the loss of hundreds of thousands if not millions of irreplaceable warriors.

2. For all their hype, the Necrons can be killed just like anything else (if you blow it dead enough).

1. Necrons can be replaced (all they need is a soul to animate the machine).

2. Phase out says otherwise.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 21:44
1. Necrons can be replaced (all they need is a soul to animate the machine).

I have never heard ANY reference of creating new Necrons....but still, I doubt they can do it fast enough to make good the losses of an entire Tomb World and its facilities.


2. Phase out says otherwise.

Phase out doesn't work when that Necron has been hit with something powerful enough to annihalate it completely - i.e. meltagun, lascannon, demolisher cannon.

Grimtuff
16-09-2007, 21:52
Phase out doesn't work when that Necron has been hit with something powerful enough to annihalate it completely - i.e. meltagun, lascannon, demolisher cannon.


I does, it's self repair does not just kick in instantaneously. It simply teleports back to the tomb world where more extensive repairs can be done ;)

The_Outsider
16-09-2007, 21:55
You are also assuming the losses caused by the Imperium matter - for all we know the Necrons outnumber the Orks.

Also note that nothing outside of the Blackstone fortresses (and other gods aside) has ever been said to be able to take a C'tan on when at full strength.

There is literally nothing stopping the Nightbringer flying up to a titan and just cutting it in half.

Hell even if you destroy their necrodermis shell it takes far more warp power than the Imperium has to actually hurt the C'tan themselves.

Just remember fluff is a power curve, mariens are awesome but necrons are written to fluffwise they are just shy of invincible.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 21:55
I was under the impression that if a Necron were hit by something that was effectively twice its toughness, then it was destroyed.

If you're saying that no Necron can EVER be destroyed, I am not buying it. If a Necron was hit by something S8 or above, it would be effectively atomized, or at least torn into so many little pieces it would be pointless to try and put them back together.

A wound from a Lasgun or something, sure, they can repair that, but I don't think it works when the Necron literally is blown to shreds.

The_Outsider
16-09-2007, 22:01
Again, rules and fluff are two different things.

Much like choppas for orks are really just mear cleavers the sizes of axes, fluffwise they can cut through flak armour like it didn't exist - but for game balance they don't affect flak armour.

downundercadet07
16-09-2007, 22:07
So which way do you want it outsider? Tabletop rules count towards discussion or not? You seem to want it both ways.

So the Necrons almost (not totally) wiped out a pacifist species defended by primitives with bronze-age level technology? Wow! The military might!

The fact is, when you destroy the engines at the guts of a tombworld, and in so doing, wipe out the ability of nearby necrons to regenerate when they take a railgun to the face, those necrons, and the souls of the necrontyr that inhabited it, are gone. Irreplaceable.

You point out that in Nightbringer, the book, a group of warriors, outnumbered 5-1, are defeated. If the Imperium could focus everything on the Necrons, you're looking at being outnumbered literary thousands, if not hundreds of thousands to one.

Cripple supply routes? What, in the warp? Not bloody likely.

Shut down communications? Like, um, the Astronomicon? Again, not bloody likely.

The thread that tried to reckon the total strength of the Imperium came up with a number of such magnitude that I can't even begin to conceptualize it. Imagine all those people, either fighting, fabricating munitions, or researching new military technology. In a decade or less you would see a new Dark Age of Technology. The number of Space Marine chapters would swell with the lack of casualties. The number of secondary things that would be affected by that many people singlemindedly working for the destruction of a single enemy would be huge. I mean, that many people could birth a Chaos God devoted only to the emotion of killing Necrons. It's ridiculous, when you stop to think about what that amount of manpower is capable of.

Iracundus
16-09-2007, 22:09
If chaos ever overrun the cadian gate then the imperium would be in a real tight spot for the first time since the heresy. Although the fact the GW won't let that happen is why the imperium keeps surviving against the odds! :D

See official results of EoT campaign and latest Chaos Codex. Chaos has overrun the Cadian Gate and has a foothold in realspace. They haven't been able to break out from that foothold just yet due to the Imperium reshuffling forces to stem the tide, but then again the Imperium hasn't been able to dislodge that foothold yet either.

Regarding Necrons, in their Codex it describes one Necron re-appearing in the tomb as little more than a shattered torso that then falls to the ground in a clatter. This suggests several things. It means not every last fragment always gets back to the tomb else that Necron would have re-appeared with its missing limbs. This therefore suggests that it is theoretically possible to completely annihilate a Necron beyond point of repair if you hit it with something powerful enough such as a starship lance weapon.

Since the release of the Necron Codex expanding their background into a full race, there hasn't been any mention of newly constructed Necrons (Pariahs yes but not the old Necron warriors). There has only been mention of them re-activating still slumbering ones and repairing damaged ones. If they don't have the ability to create new Necrons anymore, then the supply of Necrons will diminish gradually over time even if the final annihilation of a Necron is a rare event.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 22:34
Regarding Necrons, in their Codex it describes one Necron re-appearing in the tomb as little more than a shattered torso that then falls to the ground in a clatter. This suggests several things. It means not every last fragment always gets back to the tomb else that Necron would have re-appeared with its missing limbs. This therefore suggests that it is theoretically possible to completely annihilate a Necron beyond point of repair if you hit it with something powerful enough such as a starship lance weapon.


Why need it be a Starship lance weapon? Why not a Demolisher Cannon, or a Meltagun?

I figure, you tear the guy up into enough little pieces, it is pointless to try and put him back together. That is what the whole Double Strength = Instant Death rule signifies.

BTW, nice post Downundercadet.

The Judge
16-09-2007, 22:36
But the codex (and another source... WD I believe) speaks of the Spyders using nanobot sized repair robots to fix the Necrons... so no, it doesn't matter how small the pieces are.

Ktotwf
16-09-2007, 22:40
Yes, but as Iracundus pointed out, in situations where a high level of fracturing of the Necron was achieved, the Necron's parts would be impossible to transport back to the Tomb World.

The Necrons may be very very efficient at reconstructing casualties, but not 100% efficient obviously.

Erebus26
16-09-2007, 23:20
Sorry I meant Cadia Iracundus! :eek: If they overrun Cadia proper then the imperium could be in big trouble!

RedStompa
17-09-2007, 05:26
Dont know how you would draw them out, was more of a could then a statement, misworded it.

10 of the 20 original legions went traitor... thats only 100,000 or a million depending on how many is in each legion

they are far less now. each was down to about half when the heresy 'ended', and they keep widdeling eachother down even firther a la world eaters and much infighting.

DantesInferno
17-09-2007, 05:31
they are far less now. each was down to about half when the heresy 'ended', and they keep widdeling eachother down even firther a la world eaters and much infighting.

They do recruit new Chaos Space Marines in the Eye, though.

Iracundus
17-09-2007, 07:40
From the 2nd ed. Chaos Codex, the Chaos Legions still recruit from the masses of slave warriors and cultists they have in the Eye. It's just that whenever they've portrayed the Chaos Marines, they've almost invariably preferred using the Heresy veteran POV, with the notable exception of the Iron Warrior Honsou. So while the number of Heresy veterans may slowly diminish, the Legions themselves may not.

Erebus, it depends on what you classify as overrun. In the new Chaos Codex, it says Abaddon has overrun Cadia itself, though the fighting is still ongoing. In the EoT campaign, the Imperials held something like 39% of Cadia with Chaos holding the rest, with Creed having to pull a Dunkirk like retreat over the sea. The recent mentions in the Space Marine and the Tau Codex suggest the Imperium really is in big trouble as they've had to strip troops from the Eastern fringe to reinforce the Cadian Gate region, allowing the Tau and other races to capitalize by seizing worlds.

Dakkagor
17-09-2007, 14:24
Couldn't pass this one up.

The Eye is untakable. Unstormable, and nearly impossible to get out off. Its not just a fortress, its a jail cell. If the Imperium could get enough marines and guardsmen together to throw a cordon around Cadia sectors, then exterminatus any world which chaos is likely to overwhelm, they would actually trap millions of chaos ground pounders outside of the eye. It would be a crippling blow from which they might never recover. Only while the legions lurk in the eye are they untouchable. This is why the imperiums long term solution to chaos has been to keep it contained inside the eye, or wipe it out when it escapes. If the imperium had the resources to burn, they would probably retake cadia, and expand the defences into a true ring of steel around the eye, with a buffer zone of exterminatused worlds around the eye, giving chaos no easy targets. What they have at the moment is an optimistic ad-hoc system thats like trying to patch a battleships leaking hull with plastic sheets.

The orks will never be got rid off, they are just to prevalant and difficult to permenantly root out. Any ork system of decent age will have every primary biosphere supporting the most orks possible, and nearby space will be crowded with roks (asteroids turned into space stations) an ork sector could contain hundreds of such worlds. The imperium, even with all of its attention focused on this foe, could never wipe it out completely.

FarseerMatt
17-09-2007, 14:44
The Eye is untakable.

But in the EoT global campaign didn't the Eldar recapture Belial IV (one of their old homeworlds INSIDE the EoT) as well as a fair bit of Eidolon?

Although true, if the Imperium invaded the EoT half their troops would probably end up turning to Chaos during the Crusade :P

Their best bet would be to find out how to make Necron pylons and use them to shut down the Warp/realspace overlap ie don't capture the EoT, destroy it.

RedStompa
17-09-2007, 20:52
recruit new Chaos Space Marines in the Eye, though.

surely not enough to be a signifigant threat right? I would assume that life in the eye would be pitifully short for any normal person....

By the way, I heard alot about the EoT campaign, what happened? I heard some idiot screwed up so badly it cost the Imperials the victory?

What would have happened if this did not occur and the Imperials still held it?

Also, How can the Imperium continue to support Cadia when over 60% is in chaos hands? Aren't there obilisks there or something? Did the legions of abbadon destroy them? did they find them?

Iracundus
17-09-2007, 21:27
No one single Imperial messed up for the Imperial side in EoT. It took the collective disorganization of the the entire Imperial side to do that.

In essence, "too many chiefs, not enough Indians" to use a phrase. Though there were lots of little groups of players, often times they refused to cooperate on placing their battles, insisting on doing their own thing. There were Imperial players refusing to cooperate with the Eldar players, insulting them, and calling other players that did cooperate heretics. There were megalomaniacal players that would show up randomly claiming to be the supreme commander of all Imperial and Forces of Order forces, ordering people around that people would ignore. In among these were some players that offered some real constructive suggestions on how to salvage the Imperial mess, but these were also ignored for a large part of the campaign. And of course for the longest time, there were and still are players that never understood the larger scale campaign mechanics of the "threshold" effect or even that there were warzones other than just the sector level. These people just kept dumping their wins in unimportant or unsalvageable areas. However even then, the sheer number of unfocused wins were enough to win the Imperials the sector level space battles, though it wasn't enough to win them the campaign. Note: Players could report 40K battles as sector level space battles. There was no requirement to play BFG.

By contrast the Forces of Disorder were far more organized as a whole, as ironic as that sounds. Though there were some groups that did their own thing, the 3 players that formed the Triad strategic group managed to get the support of a large segment and they were able to deduce the threshold campaign effect and direct players to place their wins for optimal effect. The campaign mechanic they used literally translated in effect to thousands of extra Disorder wins, which enabled the Forces of Disorder to overcome their major numerical player disadvantage (a given in any GW campaign given the number of Marine and IG players).

So in a nutshell, Forces of Order were numerous but massively disorganized, Forces of Disorder were less numerous and massively organized. Even then it was only marginal Disorder victory and likely the best that could be hoped for short of the Imperial players not playing at all. However since that long ago campaign, there have been and still are some Imperial players that have been sore losers or still in denial that have been trying to consciously or unconsciously trying spin/interpret the results to mean a draw or even an Imperial victory.

RedStompa
18-09-2007, 02:19
thats sucks... looks like they turned that right around for Medusa V though...

what would have happened if The Imperials won the EoT campaign? Lost by a larger margin? Won by a larger margin (total victory)?

would the fluff have changed that much?

Ktotwf
18-09-2007, 02:54
thats sucks... looks like they turned that right around for Medusa V though...

what would have happened if The Imperials won the EoT campaign? Lost by a larger margin? Won by a larger margin (total victory)?

would the fluff have changed that much?


I sincerely doubt it. Medusa V didn't change anything.

If you look at the EOT's companion campaign, the Storm of Chaos, the Chaos forces were slaughtered wholesale, and GW still helped them along.

Essentially, GW WANTED Chaos to do well.

Iracundus
18-09-2007, 03:15
Two different campaigns, run by different people with different mechanics. EoT was lost solely because of the Imperial lack of coordination and the Chaos coordination. Those claiming GW bias are showing that even now so many years later people are seriously failing to understand how the mechanics of that campaign worked, or why the Imperials lost, choosing instead to blame someone else rather than look at the players themselves. The magnitude of the threshold effect was utilized to its maximum by the Forces of Disorder. It translated to thousands of extra wins PER day, literally. The Forces of Order in the end knew about this effect but were never able to coordinate enough to get it to work consistently for them. I'll explain the system below to lay this to rest:

The sole determinant of how a warzone in EoT did was its Imperial Control (IC) rating. This was nudged up by Order wins and down by Disorder wins, with some warzones like Cadia being harder to shift than others (Disorder strategists estimated roughly I think 300 net wins in order to shift IC by 0.1%). No other factor mattered. Simple number of reported wins didn't matter at all except in so far as they influenced the IC, which was adjusted based on daily wins. After the day in which a win was accounted for, it had no effect.

The threshold effect was that whenever IC for a warzone crossed a multiple of 20% (20, 40, 60, 80), all IC for other warzones in the system or area would also shift in the same direction, but by 5% IC. Think about the bit about Cadia above. It took roughly 300 net wins (difficult to manage when Disorder was outnumbered) to shift a pitifully small 0.1%. A shift of 5% in Disorder's favor is the equivalent of dumping an additional 15,000 wins in one day into that warzone alone, plus the equivalent number of wins for 5% IC in all other warzones in the area. There were multiple warzones in the Cadian star system. Altogether a single threshold effect would have been the equivalent of probably 100,000 or more extra wins in that one single day.

However, these shifts in IC are reflected solely in the IC. The cumulative number of wins was tracked (though I don't know why as it served no game mechanic as wins had effect only on the day of reporting), but it didn't show this threshold effect in those win numbers. Hence why some complained when they saw the IC falling so quicky when Chaos had fewer reported wins. EoT was about placing wins where it mattered for maximum effect, not purely about counting sheer number of wins, and in that the Forces of Disorder proved superior, hence why they won the campaign: through STRATEGY, not simple brute strength. Sidenote: There was a smaller trickle up effect from planetary to system or sector level that was also noted by Disorder number crunchin strategists but that game mechanic was so minor as to be effectively irrelevant.


What effect an alternative outcome might have had is hard to say given that Andy Chambers was one of the people pushing for background progress and GW have since backed away from their initial promises.


Storm of Chaos, did result in a massive Chaos defeat. However it was said from the start they would reach the siege position. It was however a matter of what shape they were in when they got there and the mechanics were designed accordingly, with if all else failed warzones falling to Chaos by timeout though that was the worst outcome for Chaos. Chaos did poorly in the leadup and so the siege started far out from the target walls. People fail to read that bit where it said Chaos WOULD reach the city to siege.

stormblade
18-09-2007, 07:03
Forces of Disorder were less numerous and massively organized.

- Now there's the Irony.:evilgrin:

Iracundus
18-09-2007, 08:22
Ironic but not unexpected. The Forces of Disorder players as a whole recognized that if they refused to work together and all ran off purely after their own agendas that they'd be steamrollered by the massively outnumbering Forces of Order players. Quite simply without cooperation and coordination, the campaign would have been lost from the beginning and pointless.

The line up of sides was uneven given that you had Marines, IG, and Eldar (possibly the most numerous Xenos race in number of players) all on the same side, which made up probably well over 60-70% or more of the player base. Without a campaign system that allowed for large scale strategy and maneuver to play a role, the outcome would never have been in doubt.

Unfortunately since EoT I haven't seen GW have a campaign that allowed for similar smaller side defeating the larger side upsets. The organizers for Medusa V claimed the campaign system was designed so that simple player numbers didn't matter but I'm not sure I believe that entirely given that the most numerous factions won, and more importantly the campaign system was opaque and never subjected to open analysis so all we have is the organizers' claim.

setekhite
18-09-2007, 17:35
So which way do you want it outsider? Tabletop rules count towards discussion or not? You seem to want it both ways.

OK then: in TT terms, Necrons can repair anything if there is a resurrection orb nearby. The codex has a description of a liquefied Necron being repaired; on that basis, nothing except Gauss or Warp weaponry can permanently destroy a Necron.



So the Necrons almost (not totally) wiped out a pacifist species defended by primitives with bronze-age level technology? Wow! The military might!

The 13th Black Crusade was 'but a skirmish compared to the War in Heaven' - to quote the background material for that campaign. The Old Ones wielded psychic power on an unprecendented and unrivalled scale, and while the Eldar were primitive they had unfettered use of their psychic powers.


The fact is, when you destroy the engines at the guts of a tombworld, and in so doing, wipe out the ability of nearby necrons to regenerate when they take a railgun to the face, those necrons, and the souls of the necrontyr that inhabited it, are gone. Irreplaceable.

Unestablished. You destroy their forward base, but what happens to the Necrons stationed there is unproven; otherwise, the Imperium would have a heck of a lot more raw material for study. As regards new Necrons being built - it happened in the background for the Elysian Drop Troops in Armageddon. A long time ago but it's there; now, is there anything that contradicts that? To add rumour, I understand that the Apocalypse book mentions Necrons 'downloading' into new bodies. Bearing in mind that Necrons are soulless - they're literally the animated dead - there's nothing to preclude Necrons with ruined forms being given new bodies, or even being 'copied' to create new Necrons.


You point out that in Nightbringer, the book, a group of warriors, outnumbered 5-1, are defeated. If the Imperium could focus everything on the Necrons, you're looking at being outnumbered literary thousands, if not hundreds of thousands to one.

Again, there's no hard data on Necron numbers; the galaxy has far more uninhabited rather than inhabited worlds where they could exist without the Imperium knowing.


Cripple supply routes? What, in the warp? Not bloody likely.

Interdict ships as they enter systems - cut off the supplies to Forge Worlds and industrial centres - raze agricultural worlds. Plenty of ways to do so without entering the Warp; remember ships can't enter the warp near solar systems and the like.


The thread that tried to reckon the total strength of the Imperium came up with a number of such magnitude that I can't even begin to conceptualize it. Imagine all those people, either fighting, fabricating munitions, or researching new military technology. In a decade or less you would see a new Dark Age of Technology.

DAOT humanity did not threaten the Eldar's position as the dominant galactic power; and yet, those same Eldar never dared to attempt the extermination of the Necrons in hibernation for fear of what they would unleash. Now, couple that with how unimpressed the Necrons were by the scale of the 13th Black Crusade, and there is at least circumstantial evidence that the full force of the Necrons is more than a match for the Imperium.

jb85
18-09-2007, 19:02
As regards new Necrons being built - it happened in the background for the Elysian Drop Troops in Armageddon. A long time ago but it's there; now, is there anything that contradicts that?

I was just going to mention that. Although the machines in the Skopios incident were never explicitly stated to be Necrons, it certainly seems to be the implied conclusion.

Back on the EOT for a minute, my memory may be a bit cloudy, but my impression was that while the Forces or Order were not as organised as their counterparts the threshold effect only became apparent after the campaign begun. The FOD were the first side to recognise the effect and how to bring it about and used it to good effect. The Imperial forces did realise how the mechanism worked later in the day than the FOD but managed to organise and use it to make up ground around weeks 5-7.

Iracundus
18-09-2007, 21:25
Yes the Forces of Order made up some ground during the second half but during the last 1.5 weeks, groups started splitting off their main group to do their own thing again or started ignoring their coordinating group again so the Forces of Disorder made a comeback and rolled back most of the gains Order had made.

There used to be a site that detailed the day by day progress of the campaign, but unfortunately it's down now.

jb85
18-09-2007, 21:44
That was something that always bewildered me. The FOO had a couple of really good weeks when it looked like the campaign could still be won before what seemed to be a complete breakdown in coordination in the last week.

Iracundus
18-09-2007, 21:50
The Forces of Order only got their act together by being the one big immovable block: concentrating all their players onto one warzone at a time, usually in the Cadia system. That one block outnumbered any Disorder group, even combined groups, and was simple to organize compared to Disorder's multiple strike forces so they made gains. If they had stuck to this, they might have salvaged the Cadian system at the very least.

However I think some victory got to some people's heads. I recall on the EoT forums, the Order players starting to award each other grandiose titles and medals thinking they won the campaign. Then, the Order players made a critical error. They tried to save more warzones by doing more complicated things like splitting their one big group into more smaller ones, some even trying for things like staggered time zone posting of wins. Unfortunately all this served to do was split the previously unbeatable block into manageable sized chunks that weren't as coordinated as the one group. These smaller groups essentially went back to picking their own goals and the whole thing basically went back to before, with Disorder organized groups able to outnumber and overpower these smaller Order groups. The Forces of Order learned that sometimes a simple robust plan is better than an overly complicated plan (particularly when one has players that are prone to not listen) and that sometimes in trying to save everything you end up saving nothing.

The one segment of the Order forces that were an exception to the above disorganization were the Eldar groups who while not entirely united, were still largely coordinated. However they had their own agenda, and couldn't be everywhere at once to save the Imperial cause. Also there was a minority within the Eldar groups near the end that was disgusted with the Imperial disorganization and wanted to let the Imperium lose rather than try and save them.

RedStompa
18-09-2007, 22:13
Storm of Chaos- what do you mean slaughtered wholesale?

any fluff on this?

also: had any of you guys playes in the EoT campaign?

what happened to the other races? were they simply ignored?

Iracundus
18-09-2007, 23:35
Storm of Chaos: Since the campaign pitted Chaos (+ Beastmen) vs. practically everyone else, they did very poorly in the preliminary zones before the actual siege. So the actual siege started in a very favorable position for the defenders, and since the siege still pitted Chaos vs. practically everyone else, the siege was easily broken. There was little actual real threat of Chaos breaching the city due to simply the number of players pitted on each side and the way the mechanics worked, which pretty much didn't allow for any strategy significant enough to put the outcome in doubt.

Yes I was in the EoT campaign which is why I know all this stuff about the Triad and what happened in the player and campaign mechanics. The old hipcat site that detailed all this unfortunately has since gone down permanently.

Other races were involved and accomplished their goals (or not) to varying degrees. Google Eye of Terror and "death by a thousand cuts" and view the GW article which was published in WD. It shows the final IC percentage breakdown.

RexTalon
19-09-2007, 00:45
A single hivefleet without reinforcement was enough to almost destroy an entire sector, namely Ultramar. Ultramar is one world, and there have been three hive fleets in the Ultima Segmentum. One of which has been destroyed. The sector is still going strong.

Gwyd
19-09-2007, 10:28
I think people are underestinating the scale of the Imperium, not just in numbers but in the distances involved.

Mustering the numbers involved to force an extermunius of such a scale would take centuries to converge.

Crazy Ivan
19-09-2007, 15:38
Ultramar is one world, and there have been three hive fleets in the Ultima Segmentum. One of which has been destroyed. The sector is still going strong.
Unless I'm wrong, Ultramar is the entire realm under control of the Ultramarines, consisting of at least several starsystems. Macragge is the capital planet of the Realm of Ultramar.

As for the three hivefleets, didn't Leviathan enter the Milky way through the Segmentum Tempestus instead of Segmentum Ultima? It supposedly came rather close to earth and destroyed at least on Forge World (Gryphonne IV).

And the three hivefleets yet seen are apparently only the vanguard of the immense Tyranid presence still outside our galaxy...

RedStompa
19-09-2007, 20:09
from what I have seen of the map of the galaxy it seems tht the Imprium has just about demolished all the hive-fleets, totally destroying one or two, whilst the others are in bits pieces... could the imperium possibly eliminate the tyranid threat and still have enough time to be prepared for the rest of the fleet?

jb85
19-09-2007, 20:57
from what I have seen of the map of the galaxy it seems tht the Imprium has just about demolished all the hive-fleets, totally destroying one or two, whilst the others are in bits pieces... could the imperium possibly eliminate the tyranid threat and still have enough time to be prepared for the rest of the fleet?

The Imperium has completely destroyed Behemoth and Kraken has largely been broken with Leviathan the remaining major active fleet. The Imperium has the might to take on the Tyranids currently in the galaxy its problem is getting a location where they can fight the Tyranids on their terms. As for preparing for more Hivefleets they can't basically. They don't know how many there are, what direction they are coming from or when they will arrive.