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TitusAndronicus
30-08-2005, 21:29
So my Bro in law just called. Lost the house. I assume my property in Diamondhead is gone and the camp in slidell is as well. So there went my life savings.
Aaron was living in it with his girlfriend and their kids, rent free (I'm good family:-) ) The kids and Katie will be staying with his parents for a while, and he'll live on the boat and working his ass off in the gulf, working to rebuild the oil fields.


Good news is that everybody is all right. I may be gone for a while, rebuilding.

lord_blackfang
30-08-2005, 21:36
Damn, man. That sucks.

I guess Katrina is an "act of God" and so isn't covered under insurance, huh.

Lafeel Abriel
30-08-2005, 21:38
Typical if it was. A "act of god" clause is nothing more than just a easy way out for insurance companies, imo, they should pay up, as otherwise people will have lost everything.

Wez
30-08-2005, 21:40
Good to hear your family's ok, but shame about property.:(

Hope things work out for you.

-Wez

Sprue Rubbles
30-08-2005, 21:55
I'm glad to hear that your family is ok despite the loss. I wish you and your family the best.

TeddyC
30-08-2005, 21:58
Act of God? Can you not argue that God doesnt exist? ;)

Seriously, that sucks, I heard its martial law out there now.

Glad to hear everyones safe though

Inquisitor Engel
30-08-2005, 22:10
I'm hoping that, TA, your land was insured in some way?

Anyway, glad to hear that the human cost was virtually nil, and even overall, for something this BIG, the number of actual deaths (at least immediate ones) has been awesomely low, props to Mississippi and Louisiana for getting on the ball early and getting almost completely evacuated.

tzeentchgiant
30-08-2005, 22:13
Hope you get insurance money, glad to hear your family's ok though, that's what really matters.

Hope it goes well for you in the future.

TG

Sojourner
30-08-2005, 22:22
'Lost'?

So, if whatever gets destroyed by natural disaster, it's just gone, that's it?

And your insurance is ok with this?

How is this even legal?

Hippy In Peril
30-08-2005, 22:40
That's horrible...At least you and your family are alright.

Good luck with the rebuilding.

Kohhna
30-08-2005, 22:43
My commiserations. Glad to hear that your ones are OK.

Verergoca
30-08-2005, 22:44
Damn, that sucks balls...

Good luck with rebuilding!

Glad to hear the family is allright:)

The Dragon Reborn
30-08-2005, 22:46
ouch, look at the good side. ummm you can rebuild your old house into a better house! and have a whole sepret building for wargamming

Captain Brown
30-08-2005, 23:01
We are all glad your family was alright, a home can be rebuilt.

TitusAndronicus
30-08-2005, 23:06
Yeppers, it can. I dunno what the heck FEMA is going to do about this one. This is going to turn out worse than anything we've ever faced before. My mother in Jackson Mississippi is the only person she knows with power and a phone. Neighbors are camping on her floor with their roofs gone. IN JACKSON for christs sake! I'me betting we'll have thousands dead. It's going to be bad bad. Aaron said as he went down river he was passing bodies in the river. They're ignoring them, just trying to get live people out of it.


Woo!


Thanks all, don't worry bout me--I am more worried about all my family (I live in LA these days!)

TitusAndronicus
31-08-2005, 02:19
I'm hoping that, TA, your land was insured in some way?

Anyway, glad to hear that the human cost was virtually nil, and even overall, for something this BIG, the number of actual deaths (at least immediate ones) has been awesomely low, props to Mississippi and Louisiana for getting on the ball early and getting almost completely evacuated.

Engel, usually Hurricanes aren't covered, nor is flooding. And sadly, later this week you're going to hear about all the dead. Right now they're struggling with saving the living. Tim enough for the dead later, I think.

Inquisitor Engel
31-08-2005, 03:02
Engel, usually Hurricanes aren't covered, nor is flooding.

:wtf:

That's a horrible shame. On the bright side, the land will probably still exist, if it's drained. I hope so. :(

m1s1n
31-08-2005, 03:41
Sorry to hear that, anyway--glad to hear that the fam is okay, that's what really matters.
My cousins live in Baton Rouge and they had to be evacuated. They still don't know what happened to their property, but I imagine it's not very good--New Orleans did get the shaft.

TitusAndronicus
31-08-2005, 05:09
Engel, the house was on the historical list. Damned shame for someone like me, I had restored it to spec using materials from old demolioshed houses and such, and it was a real prize. But knowing Aaron and the kids are okay is all I give a damn about. It was only money, after all. ANd I've blown more on 40k than I put into my camp in SLidell.


m1sin, my inlaws are in BR. No power, no phone, no water. In a million dollar house he's cooking on a coleman stove :-) serves the rich old bastard right! :evilgrin:

Oh, and a sister who I don't talk to any more--we're so southern :p

violenceha
31-08-2005, 07:05
geez Titus that's ****ed, so when are you going to write a book about your life, it's be a fasciniating read

useless
31-08-2005, 07:16
first flooding in europe, rhen hurricane Katrina. This sure sucks.

Eldacar
31-08-2005, 07:51
Sorry to hear that Katrina did so much damage. Still, you family's still with you, and that's what counts.


ANd I've blown more on 40k than I put into my camp in SLidell.
You saved your miniatures, right? RIGHT? :p

Grumnir
31-08-2005, 08:27
My comiserations for the losses.

Though it is comforting to see you have your priorities right in that people > property

Sojourner
31-08-2005, 08:40
Engel, usually Hurricanes aren't covered, nor is flooding.

Given that it's america, where these things happen all the time, why the **** not?

Tough luck man, but the system really doesn't help, it seems.

Pertinax
31-08-2005, 08:42
To those who were touched in some way by the Hurricane.

My sympathies are with you.

*bear hugs*

TitusAndronicus
31-08-2005, 13:55
Well, it'll be a while before most of our coonasses and yats check in. Most of Louisiana is without power still. And Mississippi is in the same shape. I'm not going to compare this to the tsuname in terms of casualties. But it's worse in financial and infrastructure damage.

CELS
31-08-2005, 14:32
Given that it's america, where these things happen all the time, why the **** not?
Probably because that would make insurance so expensive that very few people could afford it. It being America is precisely why it's not covered, apparently.

My sympathies to those affected by the Hurricane!

I also have a question, and I hope no one feels that I'm being disrespectful or awfully inappropriate (Apologies in advance :( ), but... how do they build houses over there? On the news, you can see houses being blown away like they were made from balsawood. Why aren't people building houses of bricks and reinforced concrete, with all those tornadoes and hurricanes?

TitusAndronicus
31-08-2005, 15:11
They're made of the very same materials YOU people use. The brick buildings didn't last any better against the tidal surge that balsawood, that's for sure. Pkenty of brick buildings there before it hit: none left now. This was extreme, people. You aren't getting that? It was a wall of water similar to the tsunami, as I said. The wind was upwards of 200 miles an hour. Once it picks up debris it turns into a sandblaster. If it catches under the eaves of a roof the roof is ripped away like the cap off a pringles can.

We couldn't have build well enough to prevent this happening. :eyebrows: THE WIND was picking up tractor trailor rigs, for gods sake.

sorry, I'm not trying to be a dick, but there seems to be a misunderstanding about just how violent this was, like it was just another storm. This was the worst natural disaster ever to hit America, not just another thunderstorm.

BorisGT
31-08-2005, 15:13
I'm terribly sorry for your loss. Though, I'm glad to hear your family is intact.

Unfortunately I can't identify to any degree. Living up here in New Jersey we don't get too many natural disasters or crazy weather patterns.

CELS
31-08-2005, 15:27
sorry, I'm not trying to be a dick, but there seems to be a misunderstanding about just how violent this was, like it was just another storm. This was the worst natural disaster ever to hit America, not just another thunderstorm.
No need to apologise! You're right, I have no idea how strong the storm is. I'm not saying american houses are poorly built either, they're probably at least as solid as ours. I was just trying to see ways how one could minimise the damage in the future, is all. (I know you can't prevent it from happening) Anyway, I realise this is the wrong place for such hypothetical discussion. Sorry for your loss.

TitusAndronicus
31-08-2005, 15:33
Not a bad place for it at all. I am convinced this is due to global warming. Hurricanes are happening more often and tehy're more viiolent. I am afriad this is only a beginning. So we do need to talk about what can be done. Primarily I'd say no more building on beaches. The dunes we wiped out to build rich peoples condos were intended by nature to prtect the inland from strorms and such. Our barrier islands have been eaten by the gulf due to oil field damage from the 50's. Louisiana has serious problems that have been ignored. Then we started making prgress on saving them, with help from the Corps of Engineers, and Bush wiped the budget out. So in fact of matter, work that might have saved our city George Bush killed. No, I take that back. It wouldn't have had an effect this early.

But why the hell are we charging forward with no effort to work on global warming? I mean, JUST FIX IT. We've faced bigger problems. So fix this one, dammit.

I would sure like it if we Cajuns used this as a chance to shame the feds into fixing what they screwed up.

brother_fandango
31-08-2005, 16:02
my prayers are with you, buddy.

vforvenator
31-08-2005, 16:46
Ditto - for what it's worth, good luck, man.

This is turning out to be a rough century...

tzeentchgiant
31-08-2005, 17:04
@CELS, just to say, in British terms, most substancial American houses are made much like the pre-fab ones from post WWII, but some are less substancial, being mostly wood with only some exterior brickwork.

But as Titusandronicus stated, this difference in materials didn't matter in this case :( .

TG

marv335
31-08-2005, 17:38
unfortunatly one of the meterological problems that the southern states of america faces is the ecological damage caused by the heat pollution caused by mass use of air conditioning. the vast heat dump caused by the heat exchangers they cause an updraught of air over cities coupled with the vehicular emmissions that magnify the effect. the combined effect makes more extreme weather effects more likely

Darius Rhiannon
31-08-2005, 18:56
In short, if you build a house it better be a water/earthquake proof bunker...

I am glad to hear your relatives are okay, but I am upset to hear that insurance doesn't cover this, some form of federal insurance at any rate.

I have always found the "act of god" clause abhorrent. All the things that lead to the destruction of live or property can be called "acts of god", I slip on bar of soap and knock open my head, "act of god", a murder shoots at my car, filling it with holes, "act of god"

There is a very good movie on this topic of "acts of god" that I once watched. I think it is Australian, "The Man who sued God" yep, aussie
Linkage (http://a9.com/The%20man%20who%20sued%20god?src=imdb)

de Selby
31-08-2005, 20:23
Good luck with the rebuild Titus. I admire your sense of perspective.


I'll say now that I too wish that the-powers-that-be would start moving on climate change, and I also think that seeing some of the extreme weather patterns that are expected to become more common with global warming should make people sit up and take notice.

But it may be that the increasingly severe Hurricane season is actually part of a cyclic pattern, apparently hurricanes were a less serious threat for the second half of the twentieth century than the first. Does anyone know more about this?

Once again: climate change is bad news, and it isn't helping anyone. But there may be other factors in play.


I don't think insurance is really designed to cover the destruction of whole towns and cities. The insurance system only functions at all if losses are the exception rather than the rule. I don't know much about this either ;)



Stay safe.

TitusAndronicus
31-08-2005, 23:07
You saved your miniatures, right? RIGHT? :p
You missed it bud, I'm in LA, not New Orleans. My Howling Griffons, Orks, and IG are sitting on the shelf looking at me. The Eldar are hiding i the closet till the storm blows over, priscient sould that they are :D

And thanks you guys, for all your support. This has been a crappy week for me. Despite all the property I own, I'm pretty poor cause I don't charge rent for any of it (I bought it for the family to use) so i won't be able to rebuild. It kills me not because I've lost money, but now we (the family) have to find a place for Aaron to live, and our home is wiped out.

Backstory time:


I was born in Laurel Mississippi, where my fathers family is centered. It was hit pretty hard, as well as much of our family who live between New Orleans and Laurel( also up north near Vicksburg). I grew up in New Orleans, and my family owns a good bit of property there among us. We're not rich, just an old family. The grade school I went to is gone. High school is as well. The summer camp in Slidell where I learned to swim and duckhunt is gone. My grandparents farm is gone. My land in Diamondhead Mississippi was wiped out, and covered in debris, I bet.

In general, I grew up in this area, lived half my life there, and watched it disappear in twelve hours. But my family is safe, and we're farmers and fishers at heart. We'll be back, with hammers and shovels in hand, and we'll do it again. The sharecroppers and Plantation owners I come from would have done the same.

That is a strange little corner of the Earth. Nowhere else quite like it. And I'll be damned if I'm going to let it just fall apart because of one hurricane. My neices and nephews will indeed have a chance to grow up in that special place, and by god we're going to work out a way to save our city. We have a lot of work to do. The levees have to be done properly this time and not let run down. The barrier islands have GOT to be saved, and we have to quit building on the coastline, so we have some protection from this crap. But we'll do it. You watch. In ten years we'll have our homeland back and better than ever.

Right now I'm just worried about all the poor people who couldn't get out. The rich people all got out. They'll be taken care of by the government in the end. The poor people who had nothing to lose but their lives, and are looting the city trying to build up a bit of goods to sell or just get by on, they're the ones who are going to get hit hard. We still are only hearing bits and pieces about the dea. They were generally too poor to get out, and now we're ignoring them trying to save the living.

Kohhna
31-08-2005, 23:23
I was born in Laurel Mississippi, where my fathers family is centered. It was hit pretty hard, as well as much of our family who live between New Orleans and Laurel( also up north near Vicksburg). I grew up in New Orleans, and my family owns a good bit of property there among us. We're not rich, just an old family. The grade school I went to is gone. High school is as well. The summer camp in Slidell where I learned to swim and duckhunt is gone. My grandparents farm is gone. My land in Diamondhead Mississippi was wiped out, and covered in debris, I bet.
So its not all bad news then? :)

Seriously, good luck with the whole project to re-build Laurel.

TitusAndronicus
31-08-2005, 23:37
LoL!

I'm not going back to Laure. But I will be back in the area between Laurel and New Orleans. I'm sorry I'm wasting so much space gabbing, but I swore I would never go back there. Now I'm swearing I'll go home and make it a better place than I left.

Adept
31-08-2005, 23:53
But why the hell are we charging forward with no effort to work on global warming? I mean, JUST FIX IT. We've faced bigger problems. So fix this one, dammit.

Problem is, no ones sure whats actually causing global warming.

Your situation sure does suck, Titus. I can't believe they don't have hurricane insurance policies. Still, I imagine the premiums on a policy like that in an area known for it's hurricans would cost more in the long run than simply re-building the house would.

On the bright side, all houses collapse eventually. And none of your loved ones were hurt.

Inquisitor Engel
01-09-2005, 02:30
Now I'm swearing I'll go home and make it a better place than I left.

At least you've been given the opportunity. You could remake it with neo-modern architecture that look so gaudy the Robinson family wouldn't stay in them. ;)

But good luck. :)

Wiseman
01-09-2005, 03:26
sorry to hear this, hope everything works out for you, good to know your family is ok though:)

Galonthar
01-09-2005, 08:50
mate, that`s bad,...

glad to har every1 is still alive though,... couldn`t say that about a hell load o others there... :(

anarchistica
01-09-2005, 10:28
Primarily I'd say no more building on beaches. The dunes we wiped out to build rich peoples condos were intended by nature to prtect the inland from strorms and such.
You've got to be kidding...:/

Disposable Hero
01-09-2005, 11:59
Jeez, bro, good luck and best wishes to the family!

x-esiv-4c
01-09-2005, 13:29
Hell that sucks, sorry man...

Rykion
01-09-2005, 14:27
Glad to hear your family is safe, and sorry to hear about the property loss.


Just so people realize, flood and hurricane insurance is available in most of the US, but is very expensive anywhere these disasters are likely. It was made seperate from normal policies precisely because most people probably would not be able to afford it. It is so expensive because floods and hurricanes tend to cause mass destruction that no insurance company could afford to replace without collecting high premiums.

Commissar von Toussaint
01-09-2005, 15:11
Insurance policies vary by state. So it's hard to say what is insured and what isn't.

If you live on a floodplain, the rules change considerably. But again, rules vary by state.

My condolences on your loss, but don't look for global warming as a scapegoat. It has nothing to do with hurricanes. They move in cycles and after a quiet spell we've seen them pick up again.

The problem is that the break we got over the three decades led a lot of people to build where they shouldn't have and to take the prevading calm for granted. People are amazingly short-sighted and they assume that whatever the weather is now, it will be forever.

This leads people to build on floodplains and to develop places they shouldn't.

It also leads them to conclude that since it is warmer now than it was last century, this is somehow unnatural. It isn't.

Hurricanes happen, they've always happened and the best we can do is help those in need.

My suggestion is to pick a charity and donate what you can. We're going through our clothes to see what we can spare so that people at least have something to wear.

Samoth
01-09-2005, 15:12
Good thing your family's safe titus. Does suck about your property, but in a few years, you should have the actual *land* up to scratch, but not the development... :(

And just to give anyone who's been living under a rock an impression of what hurricane katrina did - it ripped apart a reinforced, multi-lane CONCRETE, load-bearing bridge.

That's tonnes and tonnes of REINFORCED concrete. A bricks and mortar house wouldn't have had a chance. Hell, a wall specially erected to handle hurricane floods like this fell down. That in itself tells you something.

Easy E
01-09-2005, 22:19
Condolences and congratulations are in order. Congrats on the family and condolences on the property.

The Golden Rule of insurance is if it is useful to the policy holder...
then it costs extra.

Crazy Harborc
01-09-2005, 23:58
We had/have(?) some friends in the Big Easy. Man, I've seen worse, but not in the USA. The "experts" are already discussing the likelihood that Katrina is now the worst disaster for the USA.

HEY, fellow USAians........Americans send M.O.N.E.Y. Donate, there will be telthons for relief/money to help to feed and house. Money can help to rebuild. In a few days it's likely that help beyond money....skilled workers will be needed. For now, money will be used to buy food/water close to where the refugees are.

They.........are refugees. Most of those who rode out the storm and the broken levees after couldn't get out...no cars and no money to fly or ride a bus out. Yes there was/is some looting..........thugs like that always show up.

Wiseman
02-09-2005, 00:02
just wondering is the superdome the worst place to be at the moment? ive heard that its pretty much mayhem in it now

Inquisitor Engel
02-09-2005, 00:14
just wondering is the superdome the worst place to be at the moment? ive heard that its pretty much mayhem in it now

It's mayhem, but for the most part it's dry and relatively safe.

There's alligators and reports of some salt-water sharks in the streets of New Orleans at the moment. Odd as it sounds, I think is one of the freakiest things I've ever thought about, it sounds almost like a B-Horror movie...

Wiseman
02-09-2005, 00:16
that is pretty crazy then, from what ive heard though theres plenty of raping and pillaging in the superdome, as well as shots fired at a rescue helicopter. Even the police have joined in the pillaging!though im not sure how much of this is fact

Commissar von Toussaint
02-09-2005, 02:08
Keep in mind that the press loves these stories and will hype them to no end. Also they have a habit of simply adding updates to existing wire stories. I notice that the lead Yahoo AP story hasn't changed in 12 hours - they just add stuff to it.

So reading it you'd think all of this stuff just happened, or happened again, when it didn't.

That being said, New Orleans isn't exactly the shining beacon of law and order. The murder rate is 10 times the national average and its corruption is legendary.

The storm and flooding resulting in prisoners escaping, jails being opened and basically the criminal element is having a field day.

Another problem is that the city is stuck way out there, hard to get to so evacuation/reinforcement/resupply is a nightmare. If this was even a place like New York it would be a lot easier.

That being said, troops are on the way (including some from my home state of Michigan) so I expect order will be restored as early as tomorrow.

Inquisitor Engel
02-09-2005, 03:04
I'm just curious about something that's not happened yet...

Where's the National State of Emergency declaration?

burzikak
02-09-2005, 06:21
Here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/) is a blog by a guy who works for a webhosting company that is still up and running in NO. dedicated, a bit nuts, but dedicated. (sorry if its already been posted)


Engel, I think the state of emergency was declared a day or two before the storm hit.

Commissar von Toussaint
02-09-2005, 13:38
I'm just curious about something that's not happened yet...

Where's the National State of Emergency declaration?

It depends on what you mean.

We don't usually declare a "national" state of emergency for a local event. And while the hurricane was awful, it isn't national in the sense that every state has to call up all its militia, etc.

The affects states are in a state of emergency and have been. Nationally the fuel situation has caused a series of "emergency" measures to keep the economy going and ease the effect of the refineries going off line.

National Guard troops from around the country are en route, but New Orleans isn't the easiest place to get to in the best of times. Add 20 feet of water over most bridges and it's pretty hard.

Given the size and scope, the US disaster response is pretty good. The problem is that New Orleans is quite remote, the area in question is vast (bigger than most European countries) and - particularly in New Orleans - the people left behind are not the most upstanding citizens.

Wiseman
02-09-2005, 15:08
that blog is an interesting read

Lord Setra
02-09-2005, 15:13
God damn the insurance company better pay up.

Billy Connolly made a film about that it was called "The man who sued god"

For all its moments of hilarity it does make good points about insurance companies at the this "Act of God" clause they try to use all the time.

Im glad to hear your family is ok I mean Ive seen some of the pics and videos and I feel for everyone that was affected by Katrina.

Wiseman
02-09-2005, 15:33
ye that is a good movie and it makes some brilliant points about "acts of god" i have the sneaking suspicion that this is what Insurance Companies will try to claim. Now the only way around this is to prove that god doesnt exist(not my views though), now how many insurance salesmen would believe that god actually exists to begin with?

Crazy Harborc
02-09-2005, 15:40
Well, the live coverage is showing convoys actually going into New Orleans.

The Pres. is sounding good and saying the right things. I hope he means it.

IMHO, this doesn't change a NEED to find out why it has taken until this morning?

Crube
02-09-2005, 15:44
I also wish to send my best wishes to everyone affected by this tradegy

As a side note, does anyone else think that Mr Bush is just looking like he's floundering. he looks totally lost and out of his depth...(just my 2c)

But as I say - I hope everyone affected can get through this

Crazy Harborc
02-09-2005, 18:05
IMHO, I don't think it hit Bush between the eyes until he flew over some of the 90,000 square miles of the storm's rampage today. He is/has landed in a couple of the areas hardest hit.

The New Orleans local response to the storm looks like the mayor and local police and rescue effort were totally unprepared and overwhelmed from day one. The reaction of the FEMA authorities does appear to have been slow and to scattered to help the people trapped in NO.

There will be investigations, both governmental and by the media. The various groups on the left and right will blame each other. The 30,000 to 50,000 known people still trapped will be blamed for not fleeing without transportation and places to flee too.

Easy E
02-09-2005, 19:05
There will be investigations, both governmental and by the media. The various groups on the left and right will blame each other. The 30,000 to 50,000 known people still trapped will be blamed for not fleeing without transportation and places to flee too.

Yeah, i have all ready heard a lot of this poppycock all ready. On one prgram they were talking about a picture of a women up to her chest in water and carrying her toddler over her head. This show said the lady should have tried walking out a few days before the storm hit and she could have been hand-in-hand with her kid. They said "Nothing was stopping her from walking up the same overpass of 10 and out of NO."

What a ridiculous thing to say! Obviously this idiot had no clue. I wonder about his grip on reality beign effected by this catastrophy. Yeah, just walk out on the Freeway!

Wisdom
02-09-2005, 19:19
Hope everything works out for you, pal

Crube
02-09-2005, 19:22
IMHO, I don't think it hit Bush between the eyes until he flew over some of the 90,000 square miles of the storm's rampage today. He is/has landed in a couple of the areas hardest hit.




True, just seen this on the news now...

Everyone I spoke to today asks the same questions

"How can this happen in the USA? How could they be so unprepared?"

My heart goes out to everyone caught up in this. My thoughts and best wishes go out to every single one of them...

CELS
02-09-2005, 21:45
That's tonnes and tonnes of REINFORCED concrete. A bricks and mortar house wouldn't have had a chance. Hell, a wall specially erected to handle hurricane floods like this fell down. That in itself tells you something.
Yeah, I guess my theory about concrete-houses being the ultimate solution didn't exactly pan out :) I saw some pictures on the telly showing a picture of a great big house built with what looked like concrete, and the storm had basically just ripped the roof off and sucked out anything inside, including the floors.

I think you guys are partially right about people building houses where it isn't safe, but then again I'm not sure where you could actually live in north america if you wanted to be completely safe from earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes and floods. I guess maybe Canada..? I probably have the wrong impression, since I'm from far away Norway, but it seems there's always a bunch of natural disasters over there.

I guess all there is to do is roll with the punches, really.

TitusAndronicus
02-09-2005, 22:50
Try and remember this is an extremely rare occirance. Althoughlately it's been happening a lot more( global warming I say!) and I think it;s just time for us to actually start anew and build in a sustainable way, and put systems in place as we are in the Tsunami areas that mean we can survive it. It's not like we can abandon the whole area--this is my HOME dammit! I used to laughwhen Sam Kenison said" Move where the food is you jerks!" about places like somolia where there was mass starvation. But sadly it's just not that simple.

Crazy Harborc
03-09-2005, 00:28
The est. 65-75000 people trapped in New Orleans should have left. Um, I think it's a little late for that now. As far as them walking out to get help. Is that the same help that couldn't get in for the same reasons the trapped couldn't leave?? 80% of New Orleans was/mostly still is under water. Now after almost 5 days without food and water most are likely too weak to walk out.

Est. 26 BILLION dollars of insured damages, likely twice that for uninsured damages. (Just heard that as of right now).

It sure looks as if the local officials didn't do very well until FEMA and other outside aid/rescue workers could take over. That's if they could get thru the flooed areas to help.

Local thugs shooting at choppers, gangs of thugs, armed and not affraid to shoot. Local police who couldn't take back the streets. No field communications meant each officer or pair were on their own.

As far as why weren't they more well prepared in the Big Easy?? Darn good question. Was that mayor and other local officials depending on luck and the Feds to arrive with help the same day as the levees broke.

At training/information seminars FEMA has said to expect Federal help to arrive in 2 to 5 days AFTER it is requested, officially requested (red tape time).

Just a few minutes ago, it was mentioned that not since the Civil War has a major USA city been ordered to evac.

Kittah
03-09-2005, 00:52
Really makes you wonder about the state of society, what with the bands of looters going around shooting at people. If we think about the Tsunami which was on a much larger scale, you didn't get bands of people running around shooting eachother.

TitusAndronicus
03-09-2005, 03:03
they don't have access to arms there. All they hadda do in NO is raid WalMart and they're now better armed than the cops. Now the Guard is around with m4's and m16's, things will slowly change as the gangs get shot or go into hiding.

My stomach is all torn up today. I guess the stress has got me. I still haven't heard from several close friends and at least two cousins and their families. I'm a bit worried still, but the Feds are finally waking up and grinding metal to get in and take care of everybody. So if they made it this far, I think they're okay.

I've been thinking. What if we simply relocated all of louisiana and Mississippi to Australia? Between the cottonmouths and fiddlebacks we're well prepared for the dropbears and death dealing spiders.

Kittah
03-09-2005, 04:22
That idea, combined with the thought that the people who live there are gun-toting wackos who're ready to loot from and kill eachother (I'm quite joking here, don't worry) brings to mind this quote from bash.org:

<_kr4m3r> so many *********** criminals, its ************
<foniks`> heh, if we sent all the criminals to some empty continent and just left them there to die
<foniks`> and showed up like 50yrs later like, "sup?"
<foniks`> whatd u think they'd say?
<FoSZoR[bg]> something along the lines of, "G`Day mate"

I hope noone is offended by this though, it's all very tongue in cheek.

Best hopes for any of your loved ones and friends in the area, Titus. That and any of the sane folks still left there.

fracas
03-09-2005, 11:30
titus

glad your family is alright

anarchistica
03-09-2005, 14:26
they don't have access to arms there.
Erm, the Tamil Tigers (who kind of have access to arms) stopped fighting the government so they could help people out...

Wiseman
03-09-2005, 14:41
"How can this happen in the USA? How could they be so unprepared?"


Even the USA isnt strong enough to deal with mother nature and her wraith.

Adept
03-09-2005, 15:05
they don't have access to arms there.

I don't think access to arms had much to do with it. Basically, I think a large part of it was that there's bugger all worth stealing in Indonesian fishing villages.

Crazy Harborc
03-09-2005, 20:58
IMHO, there very well could be some "pretend" terrorists. Not that they want to join up to destroy the USA. They want to shoot and loot. They just might think they are playing games...........with real bullets!!

By the by.........I really don't think the people who broke into stores to steal food and water/soda/etc/ even beer were doing more than trying to stay alive. Legally they looted. Now the ones stealing TVs, clothes, jewelry, guns and ammo, etc, THOSE are looters out for personel gain.

It's also possible that some of those shooters are out to shoot up people, to hurt and kill. Not all looters were/are likely to be shooters either. It's a little hard to shoot while hands are full of TVs.

ReDavide
03-09-2005, 21:16
So far, I have heard people, in all seriousness, blame the following as the cosmic/supernatural reasons that Katrina came:

"God is sending His judgements because:"
-the US has abandoned God.
-the US invaded Iraq.
-the homosexuals have a big party down there.
-it doesn't matter anyway, because they're all just black people down there.

Why do people feel this sick need to co-opt the disaster as a tool for their favorite form of bigotry? Hearing people sincerely say those things makes me even more ill than thinking about the disaster itself. :(

Commissar von Toussaint
04-09-2005, 02:21
Really makes you wonder about the state of society, what with the bands of looters going around shooting at people. If we think about the Tsunami which was on a much larger scale, you didn't get bands of people running around shooting eachother.

How do you know that? Were you on each and every island?

The only cameras there were the ones that came with the US Marines - so likely they stopping plinking because it was immediately fatal.

I'd also like to point out that most of the foreign aid sent to the tsunami has since been impounded by the corrupt local governments. So much for charity.

Regarding New Orleans, it's becoming clear that the local authorities fumbled the ball big time here - then whined that the feds basically couldn't part the sea with a wave of the hand.

For example, the mandatory evacuation appears to have been Bush's idea (http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?/base/news-18/1125239940201382.xml&storylist=louisiana) - he personally called the gov. and mayor and asked them to do it.

When they did, they didn't use the huge parking lot of busses (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015) to get the poor people out - despite the fact that this was the emergency plan for the last five years.

Recriminations aside, I've donated what I can (we've cleared out all of our spare clothes and anything else the Salvation Army will take).

For those inclined, prayer always helps.

Wiseman
04-09-2005, 11:44
So far, I have heard people, in all seriousness, blame the following as the cosmic/supernatural reasons that Katrina came:

"God is sending His judgements because:"
-the US has abandoned God.
-the US invaded Iraq.
-the homosexuals have a big party down there.
-it doesn't matter anyway, because they're all just black people down there.

Why do people feel this sick need to co-opt the disaster as a tool for their favorite form of bigotry? Hearing people sincerely say those things makes me even more ill than thinking about the disaster itself.



i agree, i cant stand people who claim this sort of stuff, i mean its obvious god did it for those reasons, people shouldnt need to say them;)

Pillx
04-09-2005, 11:45
...this thread's gone some distance and I haven't read everything, so...

First, as with the others before me, Titus has my condolences.

About insurance: I think insurance companies tend to avoid natural disasters as a general rule of thumb. Especially big ones. They wouldn't be able to pay everyone making a claim.

About the looting: ((I did type something here but thought I'd wait until I got the news link from a friend)) -I'm not sure if shooting is really widespread?


.

Wiseman
04-09-2005, 12:14
in regards to the looting, ive seen a few newspaper articles that seem to say that white people are "finding" food, while everytime it shows someone with darker skin they are "looting" from the groceries :wtf:

anarchistica
04-09-2005, 13:39
Oh dear...

Paypal freezes Something Awful relief fund (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25915)

Bush visit halts food delivery (http://www.nola.com/weblogs/print.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/print076556.html)

Some in Congress want to investigate National Guard's delay (http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/DN-katmilitary_04tex.ART.State.Edition2.423ce84.html)

FEMA turned away civilian rescue fleet (http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/3/171718/0826)

That's not looking good. There's also been reports of foreign aid being delayed or rejected. The Dutch government supposedly warned about the possibility of this happening a day or two in advance. They also offered to help with reconstructing the dykes (we're the worlds nr.1 dyke experts ;)). And then there's people calling Venezuelan President Chavez (labelled an enemy of democracy amongst things by the US Government) names because he offered aid: "He's only trying to make himself look better and us worse!"

Damn...

Sojourner
04-09-2005, 13:49
WTF to all the above.

The boat thing I can sort of understand if it were true; they don't want deep-draughted boats running aground and needing rescuing too, or getting stuck and blocking a route for someone else. Unfortunately, their line sounds like ********.

Wiseman
04-09-2005, 13:58
i agree it does sound like a load of BS (and i dont mean ballistic skill)

Commissar von Toussaint
04-09-2005, 14:16
Well we all know that BusHitlerHalliburton planned the whole thing from the get-go. :rolleyes:

I will reiterate: The scope of the disaster is huge. One can't simply use High Magic and lower the water.

Also keep in mind that LOCAL AUTHORITIES are the ones in control. The President of the United States can't simply "send in the troops" and solve the problem. The more one reads about what is actually going on (rather than the ranks on left-wing web sites) the more one appreciates how difficult the situation is.

For example, there is no fuel for 300 miles from New Orleans. That's a pretty long supply line. Round trips are quite an ordeal, so it's not just a matter of "sending in the Guard."

This brings us to the other issue: local leadership. Basically, it wasn't there. The Mayor of New Orleans let 255 busses that could have been used to evacuate thousands of people turn into a water part - despite the fact that this was the emergency plan.

There are also reports that the evacuation was only ordered after - you guessed it - George W. Bush called the governor and suggested it.

LA has a lot of corruption. Cops joined the looting and 200 are reported to have quit. The New Orleans cops are so corrupt that they had to have federal oversight.

So before throwing bricks at the feds, keep in mind with what we are dealing with: one of the worst-run areas in the country.

Brimstone
04-09-2005, 15:14
My condolences to those involved. :(

Looks like this thread is heading towards P&R though.

Crazy Harborc
04-09-2005, 17:08
As of this morning, the stements being given, point to a few differences..........This storm and it's aftermath have NOT occured in the USA before. 90,000 plus square miles of land, approx. 400 miles of coastline, a top 30 USA city 80% underwater(it's below sea level), at least 250,000 refugees. It's a logistical nightmare. Noone involved in the aftermath were/are really experienced in doing this IN the USA on this scale. Three states, millions of people displaced (a large portion likely for years).


One thing that amazes me is the people who are raising heck because live human beings are being rescued instead of the dead?? (Body gathering has started in some areas)

Commissar von Toussaint
04-09-2005, 18:01
I'm not trying to be political. This isn't a political situation.

However people (especially from overseas) need to know that this isn't a matter of the federal government simply saying "we'll handle it" and doing so.

The Constitution puts clear limits on federal power. We can't simply "send the Army in" when there is a disaster.

The person in charge isn't FEMA or the President or the Secretary of Defense - it is the governor of the state in question.

One of the articles linked above even had a quote from the National Guard commander in Michigan to the effect that they can't send anyone until formally asked. LA's governor waited days before doing that.

Another article pointed out that lots of boats wanted to go in and suggested that FEMA was being dense by saying no.

Wrong. FEMA was quite smart.

The river and whole area is one massive navigational hazard. In addition, fuel and hazardous chemicals are all over the place. They are one spark from a huge fire and the last thing we need is a makeshift flotilla without any central control setting a fire and getting tons of its own members killed.

Disasters of this scope take time to sort out. It appears that the local officials didn't know how bad things were and delayed taking decisive action. Normally my attitude is to suck it up and drive on.

Now they're blaming everyone but themselves, which doesn't help anyone. CYA may make you feel better, but it doesn't feed anyone or save any lives.

What really gets to me is how stupid some of these criticism are. You can't have it both ways. One of the articles blames Bush for delaying flights because he visited New Orleans.

Yet tons of sites whine that he didn't get there soon enough. :rolleyes:

I do not envy our leaders right now. They are in a tough situation and have to make hard choices. In a lot of cases, there are no good answers, only the least worst option.

But the petty sniping is really beneath people - particularly the ones that know better.

I'll give folks a pass who only see what's on the news or what they pick up on Daily Kos (garbage in, garbage out there), but Mayor Nagin and his crew know better. And that's what bothers me the most.

TitusAndronicus
04-09-2005, 23:07
Wrong. FEMA was quite smart.

The river and whole area is one massive navigational hazard. In addition, fuel and hazardous chemicals are all over the place. They are one spark from a huge fire and the last thing we need is a makeshift flotilla without any central control setting a fire and getting tons of its own members killed.



My brother in law has made more than five trips between New Orleans and Baton Rouge, pulling people off the levees. That's upwards of 200 people one baot saved. The arguement that those johnboats should not or could not have been used to rescue the people from Charity Hospital is stupid. They could have saved dozens of lives, and all were piloted by very experienced hunters and fishermen. All could have done just fine navigating in and out (and have been in small groups but large numbers since this started).
CVT, you are a jerk who obviously has an agenda--most of your arguments are nasty opinions, or obvious distortions. Thanks for turning a thread of commiseration for those who have lost so much into a political tirade, you punk.
And thanks, all of you who chimed in, for thinking of us in these dark days and the future.

Can we lock my thread now?

Commissar von Toussaint
05-09-2005, 04:05
My brother in law has made more than five trips between New Orleans and Baton Rouge, pulling people off the levees. That's upwards of 200 people one baot saved. The arguement that those johnboats should not or could not have been used to rescue the people from Charity Hospital is stupid. They could have saved dozens of lives, and all were piloted by very experienced hunters and fishermen. All could have done just fine navigating in and out (and have been in small groups but large numbers since this started).

The problem is accountability. Once order is reestablished, the authorities aren't eager to take responsibility for what someone might do.


CVT, you are a jerk who obviously has an agenda--most of your arguments are nasty opinions, or obvious distortions.

Yes, my agenda is to point out things that the mainstream press has left out. Overseas Warseers don't understand the federal nature of our government and wouldn't know that the president can only send troops into a region after finding that it is in a state of rebellion.

So unless the Prez wanted to formally declare New Orleans was in a state of insurrection, his hands were tied until the Gov. of LA issued the requisite invitations.

A friend of mine was mobilized as soon as this happened but appears to have sat around waiting for LA to authorize our troops to enter the state.

And there's no need to get personal. I have the utmost sympathy for your loss and urge folks to donate what they can. Every little bit helps.


Thanks for turning a thread of commiseration for those who have lost so much into a political tirade, you punk.

I wasn't the one linking to the Daily Kos. :rolleyes:


And thanks, all of you who chimed in, for thinking of us in these dark days and the future.

Happy to be of service.

New Orleans is a great city and it must rise again. My dad has visited it often and I've decided that when all is said and done, I too want to see this remarkable place.

But first we have to rebuild it, and it's going to take time. Lots of time.

And we have to tend to the victims, living and dead.

What I think folks should take from this is not just a sense of how lucky they are NOT to be in that situation (and how many of us do that?), but also to take positive steps so that if something this bad happens near us, we're not caught unprepared.

Nature doesn't need global warming or any other myth of the moment to deal humanity a backhand blow that will leave us staggering.

How much water do you have on hand?
Any canned food?
If you had to leave your home with on 20 minutes to pack, would you be able to find vital paperwork?

This is the lesson I took from watching this horrible event and I hope other folks learn as well.

There will be another great disaster - there always is. The key is to be prepared on an individual level.

TitusAndronicus
05-09-2005, 04:15
I can't even begin to reply to you..

Again, Can we close this thread so I don't have to listen to CVT malign decent people who busted their asses and laud people who fell flat on theirs?


And yes, this IS personal. It's my home and my family and friends who got obliterated, and then abandoned to die of disease, hunger, and fear. Keep your right wing agitprop in P&R where it belongs. To blame the victims is just another nasty attempt on your part to draw attentiona way from your hero, who could and should have done more far earlier.

5upr3m3 h4xx0rz
05-09-2005, 05:35
The president can call martial law whenever the hell he wants....he was just way too slow to react to this. Also louisianas governor was a total dumbass to not send out those busses, he could have gotten most of the people out.

I have heard reports that it is like Somalia (think black hawk down) inside new orleans. People with machines guns in trucks driving by shooting whoever the hell they want to, raping, pillaging. It disgusts me to think that even though we are the most intelligent animals, we have to revert to this ****.

On some news station (definitely not an american one) i heard that all the black people in new orleans are angry because bush is spending so many trillions of dollars on Iraq, and he cant even muster up enough money to get the survivors out of new orleans.

My condolences to everyone who has lost someone close to them, i know how hard it can be. There no such feeling in the world. Also to see someones home, the place where someone grew up in, devastated in what couldve been a totally preventable solution, pissess everyone off to no end. If they only strengthened those levies....

Kensai X
05-09-2005, 05:52
Well I just came from New Orleans to grab my fiance out of that **** and I can confirm it's a warzone... I borught a .55 Revolver with me to protect myself from car thiefs and other similar people because I knew their was kinda of stuff going, what with the gas shortages and the total anarchy. What I didn't expect was of my 73 bullets I brought, I made it back to Florida with 11...

(And no I didn't kill anyone, just warning shots and shots that hit 10 feet above hijackers heads in order to scare them away from me.)

But right it's complete chaos, I was even caught in a firefight between a large group of rednecks that were besieging a hospital and the National Guard. Naturally I chose to help out the National Guard and drove them away. Later I found my future wife safe in a nearby building and I got her and myself out of that city.

Some of the stuff I saw there will haunt me until the day I die, the shear destruction and seeing humanity at it's absolute worse acting no better then animals... It's just plain all screwed up...

Seeing nature cause so much damage really shows humility to humanity, we do not control anything on this Earth in reality....

Wiseman
05-09-2005, 06:21
Kensai that is really screwed up, but i dont find it hard to believe at all.

Brimstone
05-09-2005, 06:44
Kensai, while I can understand why you said it please do not use the F word on Warseer.

Your sig could do with some trimming as welll.

Alkony
05-09-2005, 07:55
Anybody read a book titled "Lucifer's Hammer"? It does a surprisingly good job of describing what happens when a comet hits the Earth. Civilization disappears; people resort to looting and murder within minutes of the impact. The psychological description of survivors of that scale of disaster is scarily accurate, if the current situation is any indication.

The report that really brought this home to me (I live in Calif.) is that the area devastated is the size of the UK!! And New Orleans is almost in the middle of that area. This isn't a couple counties that we're trying to clean up, it's (the equivalent of) an entire country.

My thoughts and prayers are with everyone affected. I'm gathering up clothes, pillows, shampoo, whatever people can use to donate. I know a group of people who are organizing a huge donation effort and are driving a 25' truck to Houston to get supplies there.

TitusAndronicus
05-09-2005, 17:50
Well I just came from New Orleans to grab my fiance out of that **** and I can confirm it's a warzone... I borught a .55 Revolver with me to protect myself from car thiefs and other similar people because I knew their was kinda of stuff going, what with the gas shortages and the total anarchy. What I didn't expect was of my 73 bullets I brought, I made it back to Florida with 11...

(And no I didn't kill anyone, just warning shots and shots that hit 10 feet above hijackers heads in order to scare them away from me.)

But right it's complete chaos, I was even caught in a firefight between a large group of rednecks that were besieging a hospital and the National Guard. Naturally I chose to help out the National Guard and drove them away. Later I found my future wife safe in a nearby building and I got her and myself out of that city.

Some of the stuff I saw there will haunt me until the day I die, the shear destruction and seeing humanity at it's absolute worse acting no better then animals... It's just plain all screwed up...

Seeing nature cause so much damage really shows humility to humanity, we do not control anything on this Earth in reality....


How did you get in and where was she, Kensai? Are you from BR? This could be handy to know--I still have family in the city (uptown) and they're trying to hang in but I think they need to get the hell out before disease gets them. They are on dry ground but living in that can't be good.
Aaron has been running down the River from BR, and stopping along the levee to pick peopl up on both sides of the river. He's carrying weapons now because someone tried to hijack his boat a while ago.
You know, a week ago I would have called you on BS. But this kind of thing is actually commonplace now.
Although, why the heck would rednecks be beseiging a hospital? I though the rednecks were the good guys :p

If this thread is going to keep going, please lets keep the political crap quiet. Leae it in P&R, CvT.

5upr3m3 h4xx0rz
05-09-2005, 17:59
Nah...the rednecks are never the good guys.


Titus, if you realy want to go get your family, i suggest doing it sooner rather than later. This is only going to get worse.

Brimstone
05-09-2005, 18:05
I've locked this thread for now until Titus decides if he wants it open or not.

CVT next time you deliberately drag a thread off into P&R territory and ignore the requests of the thread starter you'll earn yourself a strike, If you want to discuss matters like that either pay up and do it in P&R or post off Warseer.