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Ikkaan
17-09-2007, 10:32
This is a topic that involves the xenology book, so i guess a spoiler is needed...

Detailing the tau, xenology hints that the eldar modified the tau using existing genetic models of a q'orl queen. In this case a pheromone organ. While this is an extraordnary feat (grafting the organ to a tau individual and simultaneously modifying the being to share this trait with its genetic offspring)...i have some leftover questions/ideas.

-On which stage could this manipulation have taken place? Tau stone age?

Even then, the tau must have understood that "something" has changed their society, and archaeologic digs must have brought up unchanged specimens.

-Back then, the case system didnīt exist, so different tau were probably not existing (what was the "original tau" like ?).

The idea of the castes must have been an eldar idea (mimicking their aspects in a way). To make this caste/ethics system work, the original tau would have been changed, splitted up in several lines (ability? genetical traits? genetic modification ? This must have taken a long time and would not go unnoticed by the tau).

-How? Or are the ethereals informed about their history and the eldar modifications?

BUT: The pheromone organ itself would be useless to the ethereals if the other castes would not react to it.

-So the other castes in turn were also modifed to be susceptible, right?

Given that members of the other castes are bound to the "Greater Good" by pheromonal influence and indoctrination plus a racial trait of being the "good cops of the galaxy" (unless forced to be the "bad cop" if the opponent doesnīt behave as requested).

-Where is the motivation of the ethereals to be good? Are they influenced by their own hormones in a way to be "good" all the time? Is it solely the tau'va they are relying on? Isnīt it too much of a coincidence of the existence of the tau'va in comibination with their modifications, even for the tau ? Being the "greater Good" doesnīt mean they can't count to four...

Crazy Tom
17-09-2007, 10:46
Zomg Its A Conspiracy!!11

Umm... answer is 'sorry, we'll never know.' This is 40K, don't expect simple answers to anything. Other than, what colour are orks.

Hellebore
17-09-2007, 10:49
Well, apart from the fact that those people who like the tau don't like this theory at all, it seems that the engineering happened during the mont'ka.

The Ethereals appear from the mountains amidst 'strange lights' (eldar landing craft?). They don't seem to have been a gradual thing - one moment they aren't there, the next they are.

I don't think the ethereals are trying to be 'good' so much as trying to be cohesive. They are bringing order - but that doesn't mean it's 'good' (a dictatorship is very ordered).

They may see themselves as the only truly capable creatures in the galaxy - and thus MUST be in control.

Hellebore

Iracundus
17-09-2007, 10:57
The Ethereals apparently have disputes among themselves (hence why honor blades) so they aren't all of one mind as to what exactly constitutes the "Greater Good" in any given situation. However the Ethereals have presumably been raised from birth accustomed to being obeyed by other Tau castes. They may not fully understand that there may be a pheromone component and simply ascribe it to how reasonable their Greater Good doctrine sounds, hence their puzzlement as to why other races don't seem to see it as quickly. Far fetched? Ask your average human how much of their behavior and reaction to people is based on pheromones and very likely they'll think "not much".

Remember the whole Eldar engineered the Tau is the in character speculation of a Tech-Priest and hence may not be right. I am no Tau fanboy but I dislike the theory intensely as it reeks too much of the "C'tan did it" syndrome where one race is being put behind the creation/motivation/past of another. If I had to put one entity behind it, I'd say it's a leftover Slann (ie Old one. See Necron Codex for link between Slann and Old Ones) who's finally unleashed his pet project on the galaxy.

Hellebore
17-09-2007, 11:21
Remember the whole Eldar engineered the Tau is the in character speculation of a Tech-Priest and hence may not be right. I am no Tau fanboy but I dislike the theory intensely as it reeks too much of the "C'tan did it" syndrome where one race is being put behind the creation/motivation/past of another. If I had to put one entity behind it, I'd say it's a leftover Slann (ie Old one. See Necron Codex for link between Slann and Old Ones) who's finally unleashed his pet project on the galaxy.

Well, there really isn't any doubt that there has been some tampering - even in the first ever tau codex they allude to artificial gene sequences and accelerated development, so whether the eldar did it or not, they've been fiddled with from the getgo.

Hellebore

Iracundus
17-09-2007, 11:47
Which is why it is better to have it be an undegenerate Slann. It's known the Old Ones loved to tinker with races, rather than ascribe a new habit to the Eldar. It is also known their tech revolved like the Eldar around manipulating the warp. In one shot it explains therefore both the unusually lengthy and intense warp storm that both destroyed the Imperial exploration fleet and sealed off further attempts to disturb the Tau, and the sudden appearance of a new previously nonexistent segment of the population (Ethereals).

No one ever said all the Old Ones had equal preferences so it is conceivable one might have tried to beat the Necrons at their own game by engineering a tech oriented, psychically dull race, with the Ethereals being the quick fix bandage when the project looked to be in danger of self destructing.

Hellebore
17-09-2007, 11:51
They make veiled statements about the eldar gods being old ones, so perhaps the only living one left (Cegorach) had the eldar do it for them?

If indeed the eldar did it themselves (and weren't simply the unwitting pawns who secured the Q'orl specimen in the first place) then perhaps it could be attributed to seeing the events of the War in Heaven repeating themselves, and so immitated the Old Ones in an attempt to slow down the degredation of their race.

Personally, I like the idea that the eldar realised humanity was too much of a risk as a meatshield against chaos, so the built a better meatshield - one that doesn't get possessed at the drop of a hat...

hellebore

Biomass Denial
17-09-2007, 12:05
Mmmm better meat shield now with new blue flavour and a different texture..........

Adra
17-09-2007, 12:21
Umm... answer is 'sorry, we'll never know.' This is 40K, don't expect simple answers to anything. Other than, what colour are orks.

Um....brown?

There does seem to be alot of tinkering that goes on in 40k...would be nice to have a totaly naturaly developed race do something for a change....but then 40k is all about big scale....so if ur gonna have conspiracy it may as well be massive :D

Sephiroth
17-09-2007, 12:32
Well, apart from the fact that those people who like the tau don't like this theory at all, it seems that the engineering happened during the mont'ka.

I like it. And I like Tau.

PS: It was the Mont'au age. "The Terror". Mont'ka is "killing blow". /Tau-nerd correction end. :p


This is a topic that involves the xenology book, so i guess a spoiler is needed...

Detailing the tau, xenology hints that the eldar modified the tau using existing genetic models of a q'orl queen. In this case a pheromone organ. While this is an extraordnary feat (grafting the organ to a tau individual and simultaneously modifying the being to share this trait with its genetic offspring)...i have some leftover questions/ideas.

-On which stage could this manipulation have taken place? Tau stone age?

Even then, the tau must have understood that "something" has changed their society, and archaeologic digs must have brought up unchanged specimens.

-Back then, the case system didnīt exist, so different tau were probably not existing (what was the "original tau" like ?).

The idea of the castes must have been an eldar idea (mimicking their aspects in a way). To make this caste/ethics system work, the original tau would have been changed, splitted up in several lines (ability? genetical traits? genetic modification ? This must have taken a long time and would not go unnoticed by the tau).

-How? Or are the ethereals informed about their history and the eldar modifications?

BUT: The pheromone organ itself would be useless to the ethereals if the other castes would not react to it.

-So the other castes in turn were also modifed to be susceptible, right?

Given that members of the other castes are bound to the "Greater Good" by pheromonal influence and indoctrination plus a racial trait of being the "good cops of the galaxy" (unless forced to be the "bad cop" if the opponent doesnīt behave as requested).

-Where is the motivation of the ethereals to be good? Are they influenced by their own hormones in a way to be "good" all the time? Is it solely the tau'va they are relying on? Isnīt it too much of a coincidence of the existence of the tau'va in comibination with their modifications, even for the tau ? Being the "greater Good" doesnīt mean they can't count to four...


Given to discuss this whole topic means talking about your points, wouldn't it have just been easier to add "Spoilers" to the thread title?

On a few points I must however correct you:

-The Caste system did and had existed in Tau culture for some time BEFORE the Ethereals showed up. They certainly reinforced it with their penalty for inter-caste breeding, but the fact remains they divided into their different groups without the Aun.

-Why would the Tau "notice" their splitting into castes while they evolve? As far as they know, that's natural. It's like some aliens noticing we have white, coloured, red skinned folk, and suggesting it must have been engineered in at some point.
Remember, the Tau are inside looking out. To them, it's the rest of the universe, i.e, humanity, which is strange.

-I believe the Ethereals were added hastily by what ever power accelerated the Tau's biological evolution, when they noticed that a side effect of what they were doing, was causing the Tau to turn on and bash each other's brains out. The Ethereals are there to pacify and guide.

Lord Malorne
17-09-2007, 12:41
Ahh very intersting. i enjoyed the part of the connection between the Tau and the q'orl and found it was prob the best thing in the xeno book!

All i want to know now is...were is the q'orl Queen!

Ikkaan
17-09-2007, 13:04
I believe the Ethereals were added hastily by what ever power accelerated the Tau's biological evolution, when they noticed that a side effect of what they were doing, was causing the Tau to turn on and bash each other's brains out. The Ethereals are there to pacify and guide.

Ok, the Ethereals came from the mountains in a shower of light. Lets imagine they are genetically modified and brainwashed tau that were stolen from some air caste camp. They were loaded off of some eldar landing craft and pumped full of hallucinogens prior to delivery....this is harsh, and ultimately brings up the question: "Where the hell did you come from?". The tau donīt believe in divine beings and religion per sé, the believe in a mindset, ethics, morals, whatever. For all practical purposes they wouldnīt fall for a simple explanation like "the ethereals were brought down from the heavens". And they made scientific progress which means someone must have asked uncomfortable questions...but was lacking the cojones to ask the ethereals...or was told that the question is not relevant for the "greater good".

Seems like i just answered my question. Its a dictatoric brainwash, and the dictators donīt know that they have been brainwashed either. This wonīt end well.

Sephiroth
17-09-2007, 13:14
According to GW background, the Tau do attribute mythical qualities to the Ethereals, suggesting they aren't as "Science and facts and logic" as iit would be believed.

Iracundus
17-09-2007, 13:24
Again given that there is no evidence of Eldar practicing sentient genetic engineering or causing warp storms, I would ascribe all this tinkering to a surviving Slann ie Old One (once again see Necron Codex for the hint that they are one and the same). The original Ethereals may not be aware of their own origins. For all we know they may have been force grown in a cloning tank and taught via hynposis (like some Space Marine training is supposed to be).

The original Ethereals could have been fed some cover story regarding their own origins: "secluded village deep in the mountains" for example, perhaps even with a phony village setup.

Lord Malorne
17-09-2007, 13:33
given what we know of the old ones it would seem to be out of character for them to create a race such as the tau!

though i agree that the eldar done it theory is a little weird (or stupid!)

though all i want to know is what definetly happened to the q'orl queen!

Iracundus
17-09-2007, 13:41
Why would it be out of character for the Old Ones to create Tau? The only thing that's in character for them is that they like to tinker with races. It is never said they are restricted in one approach even if they themselves liked to use mystical psychic stuff like the Eldar.

They tried the "make them more psychic" approach with the Eldar, and that didn't work out so well. They tried the rush job of the robust and simple of the Orks, that weren't as psychic and those didn't work in saving their civilization. I find it entirely believable that some of the survivors or maybe even just one survivor might have decided to try a new approach: scrap the psychic bit and encourage them to go pure tech and beat the Necrons at their own game.

It would also be entirely in keeping with the Old Ones for them to once again have their pet race fail to meet their expectations, though in this case the patch job of the Ethereals seems to be working for now.

Lord Malorne
17-09-2007, 13:47
because to combat the C'tan and necrontyr they created races with a link to the warp and were eventually rresponsible for the enslaver plague and the possible awakening of the chaos gods. in the long run a race blank to the warp would be good for the old ones to combat the chaos taint yet it would not solve the C'tan threat!

in one hand out the other!

Iracundus
17-09-2007, 13:50
Read my above post more carefully as I think you missed the point entirely. A psychically dull but tech focused race to beat the Necrons at their own game: pure cold technology with no interfering psychics. They already tried beating the Necrons with psychics, and that had bad side effects. Beating the Necrons by promoting a race that values technology is one approach they haven't tried, and keeping them psychically dull would avoid the problems they had with churning up the warp or attracting warp entities.

Lord Malorne
17-09-2007, 13:58
incorrect they tried technologly and had there asses handed to them, tried psychic but still could not win but led to the enslaver plague. which forced a food shortage.

Just saying that the old ones creating the tau seems a little far fetched.

Iracundus
17-09-2007, 13:59
Incorrect, the Old Ones never tried technology. Their own "tech" is mystic and warp based like the Eldar. They only ever tried engineering the psychic approach in other races before, not pure technology. Read the Necron Codex more carefully regarding the Old Ones and their "technology"

Lord Malorne
17-09-2007, 14:05
still it does not fit that the old ones would create the tau...but i do see were your coming from i just find it a stretch.

have to go see ya later...

Iracundus
17-09-2007, 14:08
You haven't presented any evidence to the contrary on why they "wouldn't" do so. Given they could make the Orks, which while psychic still make use of a lot of conventional technology, it is by no means out of the question they could make a race that is focused even more on technology while being psychically dull.

Nargrakhan
17-09-2007, 14:34
Incorrect, the Old Ones never tried technology. Their own "tech" is mystic and warp based like the Eldar. They only ever tried engineering the psychic approach in other races before, not pure technology. Read the Necron Codex more carefully regarding the Old Ones and their "technology"

I always thought the Necrontyr's "physical" and "mechanical" technology exceeded that of the Old Ones... who used more metaphysical sciences - which would repeatedly trump the Necrons until they weaponized a few Star Gods...

Am I totally off the mark here? :(

Iracundus
17-09-2007, 14:36
That is correct, but with the C'tan the Necron material technology overwhelmed the purely mystic tech of the Old Ones. However the discussion was regarding Old One tinkering with other races. The Old Ones had never promoted pure mechanical technology before but that doesn't mean they couldn't ever do so. All their previous projects were attempts to either create more psychic races, or they were rush jobs like the Orks to create cannon fodder.

Ikkaan
17-09-2007, 15:21
It is said that the old ones created a lot of the races in the galaxy. But the ability to do that is not restricted to the old ones. The eldar are also a high technology race and may have superior knowledge of genetics. There is no need to say "the old ones did it" in this case. Arguably the eldar may be trying to show that they are also able to do it, mimicking the old ones in their efforts to install counterparts to destructive forces in the galaxy. And in case of the tau they didnīt even have to design the organism from the ground up, just modifiy it.

Even if the tau players dislike the idea and the leads to a parent race - itīs intriguing. The Tau are doing something admirable for the "greater Good" - from a certain point of view. That they are doing it in cause of a basic path laid out for them doesnīt make it less positive (ok, ok...maybe not 100% positive). It also has a lot of potential for future advance of the storyline if they ever fully realize what has been done to them (the happening in the Farsight Enclaves hint at that). So many possibilites: civil war, identity issues of a whole race and semi-religious problems. And it could severely hamper their fragile connections to the eldar, if not driving them into a full blown war. A ticking time bomb.

Rockerfella
17-09-2007, 15:35
Interesting to note how members of some 40k factions just can't stomach the mere simple suggestion that it could have been the Eldar. :) Kinda makes me laugh when certain folk squirm and twist to find another, and in all fairness even more ludicrous suggestion as to the 'tampering' with the Tau.

Anyways.

The Harlequins kidnapped the Queen, and i'm guessing killed her afterwards. The Eldar, most noticably the harlequins traded and opened up relations with the Q'orl, but in typical Eldar fashion, had something else up their sleeves.

To me, this is how Cegorach works though. He works through his harlequins. If anyone is aware first hand the capabilities of the C'tan and the Crons, its ole Cegorach. Maybe its a project, maybe it isn't. Either way, its cool. :)

Cheers!

Nargrakhan
17-09-2007, 15:54
Interesting to note how members of some 40k factions just can't stomach the mere simple suggestion that it could have been the Eldar. :)

Fanboys will be fanboys. Tau can't stand the idea that their l337 mecha is somehow connected to the Eldar. Then again... all I have to do with an Eldar Fanboi, is mention some of Goto's finely authored novels. ;)

Rockerfella
17-09-2007, 16:17
Yeah, that would work. Although, for me, i've long dropped the Goto hate and moved on to pasteurs a fresh. :P

Also, I think we're forgetting that the Eldar and Old one Fleets were on a huge offensive at the time the enslavers hit. Khaine had severely weakened Ra, Vaul had put the Dragon out the rest of the war, and Cegorach had driven the outsider insane. The war was going the other way until the Elslavers drove the Eldar into the webway etc.

Old one tech wasn't purely 100% warp based, just as Eldar tech isn't purely warp based. When an eldar missile fires from its tube, it dosen't do so by some warp trickery, it uses some kind of advanced projector or fuel and explodes like oridnary 'ordinance' does. Its not all magic and witchcraft and trickery. A grav tank floats because of powerful engines that have mechanical moving parts. They just work on principles that may seen different to ours as such, making them appear to be 'mystic'.

Cheers.

setekhite
17-09-2007, 19:06
Interesting to note how members of some 40k factions just can't stomach the mere simple suggestion that it could have been the Eldar. :)

Plus, of course, there's Eldrad's quote in the old Tau Codex... the one about "I feel a kinship to them... they may surpass our achievements" or words to that effect. AFAIK this is the only time in the history of 40K that an Eldar (let alone one of their greatest leaders) has said something so unabashedly positive about an alien race.

Rockerfella
17-09-2007, 19:11
Plus, of course, there's Eldrad's quote in the old Tau Codex... the one about "I feel a kinship to them... they may surpass our achievements" or words to that effect. AFAIK this is the only time in the history of 40K that an Eldar (let alone one of their greatest leaders) has said something so unabashedly positive about an alien race.

Well thats true.

I think this is because although the Tau are by no means 'good guys' as such, they certainly know how to run an Empire. I think Eldrad respected the Tau for their ability to come good and pretty much stick to their word. They don't immediately destroy a planet because Xeno's live on it like the 'barbaric' Mon'Keigh.

They do it in a slightly different manner :p, one which Eldrad possibly approved of!

cheers.

Iracundus
17-09-2007, 21:37
One doesn't have to be a Tau fanboy to dislike the attempt to shoehorn one of the other playable races as being responsible for the very existence of another playable race. If anything I'm partial to the Eldar over the Tau, and I still dislike the idea as it's clumsy and is as bad as the whole "C'tan did it" syndrome immediately post release of the Necron Codex. However there are enough unsubtle hints in both Tau codices suggesting they are engineered as some level, so if it comes to somebody being responsible it is better for it to be a non playable race that has a known history of such tinkering rather than ascribe a new habit to the Eldar.

Bregalad
17-09-2007, 22:57
Well, fact is that we don't know where the ethereals come from. The speculation by a mad inquisitor has some good points, but also some bad ones. The Q'orl incident was filed. The anatomy (if you believe the Xenology fluff, first fluff book by the author) is identical, but Eldar are no experts in genetic engineering ( as the organ is genetically inherited to the next generation). Other races like the Old Ones might have their hands in it, or the inquisitor might just as well have erred.

On the other side I don't like the theory that the whole Tau Empire is made of pheromon slaves (Tau) and mind slaves (Vespids) and other slaves (humans, ...) . Ever tried to base a large high tech Empire on a perfume? There must be more in that (remember: most tanks, aircraft and space ships are airtight -> no perfumes). Esp. as the pheromones do not affect the Ethereals themselves (nice observation of the first poster!). I stick to the theory that pheromones have at best a minor influence on people in direct contact, but that the society is based on the common philosophy of the "Greater Good".

Otherwise I would spread the rumour, that all Primarchs also have pheromone glands engineered by Xenos, because their fascination to people is easily explained that way.

Nazguire
17-09-2007, 23:09
On the other side I don't like the theory that the whole Tau Empire is made of pheromon slaves (Tau) and mind slaves (Vespids) and other slaves (humans, ...) . Ever tried to base a large high tech Empire on a perfume? There must be more in that (remember: most tanks, aircraft and space ships are airtight -> no perfumes). Esp. as the pheromones do not affect the Ethereals themselves (nice observation of the first poster!). I stick to the theory that pheromones have at best a minor influence on people in direct contact, but that the society is based on the common philosophy of the "Greater Good".


It wouldn't just be pheromones that control the Tau part of the Empire's population, also a deeply controlled education of loyalty to the state and 'Greater Good'.
I reckon that these pheromones aren't far reaching 'perfumes' as you put it, that encompass the entire planet, but when an Ethereal says 'jump', the Tau (through the combination of pheromones and brainwashing) automatically jumps.
So yeah, like you a bit of both. But more importance given to the pheromones.

Ktotwf
17-09-2007, 23:41
Ummm...has anyone else ever ventured the idea that the Tau were created as a nice comfortable blue meatshield against the coming of the Great Devourer, by some Eldar Farseer?

1. The Tau have proved very capable of destroying the Tyranid incursions they have faced so far.

2. They aren't psychic, therefore the Shadow in the Warp doesn't bother them

3. They are on the Eastern Fringe, right where the Tyranids keep popping out of.

Oninotaki
18-09-2007, 02:39
Ummm...has anyone else ever ventured the idea that the Tau were created as a nice comfortable blue meatshield against the coming of the Great Devourer, by some Eldar Farseer?

1. The Tau have proved very capable of destroying the Tyranid incursions they have faced so far.

2. They aren't psychic, therefore the Shadow in the Warp doesn't bother them

3. They are on the Eastern Fringe, right where the Tyranids keep popping out of.


shhh no making sense when talking about backgrounds lol, although I personally feel that the necrons will not let the tyranids harvest their crops, and will engage the tyranids in full on genocide to protect their food supply.

I really do like your idea though:D

Tehkonrad
18-09-2007, 03:31
that is a good idea although the whole 'eldar did it' sounds good to me

The Emperor's Faithfull
18-09-2007, 03:33
Well you cant really say the Tau are actually really capable in fighting the Tyranids...they never actually faced a whole Hive Fleet like the Imperium...just small segments/splinters

Iracundus
18-09-2007, 03:41
Pheromones don't work like mind control rays. They can however nudge you in certain directions and influence you on a subtler level. While the Tau are likely on some level influenced by Ethereal pheromones, there is also their upbringing under the bombardment of Greater Good propaganda that would likely serve as the intellectual basis and rational basis of their loyalty. The pheromones would just be the cement that strengthens it all.

O'Shovah went through a lot of disillusionment from his battles so that doctrinal justification for loyalty was wearing thin. An Ethereal's presence might have been able to shore up his loyalty enough to the point where he might have been discontent but not an outright rebel.

Hellebore
18-09-2007, 03:57
As far as I understand the war in heaven information, there really aren't any old ones left, so the arguement that they mad the tau first has to prove that the old ones still exist in the first place.

Hellebore

Ktotwf
18-09-2007, 05:40
Well you cant really say the Tau are actually really capable in fighting the Tyranids...they never actually faced a whole Hive Fleet like the Imperium...just small segments/splinters

Yes, but the Tyranids they did face, they beat quite handily.

Commissar Bob
18-09-2007, 05:50
Sorry for going off topic here, but who exactly are the Q'orl?

I've never heard of them.

Commissar Bob

stormblade
18-09-2007, 06:04
Sorry for going off topic here, but who exactly are the Q'orl?

I've never heard of them.

Commissar Bob

- The bug-like race whose queen the Eldar kidnapped.

And It does strike me as odd that the Eldar would do it- I do not recall that they have any experience with genetic engineering.

LordXaras
18-09-2007, 07:37
As far as I understand the war in heaven information, there really aren't any old ones left, so the arguement that they mad the tau first has to prove that the old ones still exist in the first place.

HelleboreThe Necron Codex does suggest that there might be a few descendants of the Old Ones remaining in the Galaxy, and that the C'tan would stop at nothing to get a taste of the First Race again.


As for why the Eldar would get involved with genetic engineering, it has been concluded that the Eldar reponsible for the abduction of the Q'orl queen were The Harlequins (can't really recall how this was decided upon, but I'll go with it). If this is the case, the chain of command can be traced to Cegorach, the Laughing God, probably the only remaining Ancient Old One* and the kind of person who should have some Gene-modding experience.

*To differentiate from possible later-generation Old Ones, as per the first paragraph.

EDIT: Harking back to the first page:

Incorrect, the Old Ones never tried technology. Their own "tech" is mystic and warp based like the Eldar. They only ever tried engineering the psychic approach in other races before, not pure technology. Read the Necron Codex more carefully regarding the Old Ones and their "technology"
I agree, and yet again I turn to Xenology and point out the Hrud, who were somehow "changed" by one of their Gods (Old Ones again) to be more technologically intuitive, being able to salvage and better any piece of technology they come acros (mcguyvering a flashlight and a few gas tubes into a plasma weapon). This, together with the development of the Tau, might point towards a change in Old One strategy as they noticed that the Yngir were on their way back (remember that the Fall was only a few thousand years ago. There would probably have been signs going on, plus the fact that the Deceiver was prancing around), so the Ancient Old Ones could recognize their previous failiure, and thus turned to a diametrically opposed set of back-up designs but couldn't finish things before they were wiped out. Now onl Cegorach remains, and made the Tau.

Iracundus
18-09-2007, 08:13
Necron Codex mentions there are degenerate Old Ones remaining and that the C'tan like their taste. It also says to represent these degenerate Old Ones using WHFB Lizardmen, in other words showing Old Ones = Slann.

Given that basis though, and since we know the Slann are organic material beings, whereas Eldar gods are warp entities, it cannot have been the Laughing God responsible since he is a warp god. It also has never been concluded the Harlequins were responsible for anything. Again that's just an example of a few posters in a thread saying that and later posters just scooping it up and assuming it to be canon, which it isn't.

Hellebore
18-09-2007, 08:21
Well if they're degenerate, what are the chances they could actually pull off such a complicated species? I can't really see primitive lizard peoples led by giant frogs being sophisticated enough to do what their ancestors did.

As for the eldar gods, the stone tablet in xenology and the inferences made suggest that the eldar gods were old ones...

Hellebore

Iracundus
18-09-2007, 08:24
*sigh* Read my posts earlier in the thread very carefully. I make specific mention in my post of an UNDEGENERATE Old One leftover as the likely culprit, not the degenerate ones. Over and over again people misunderstand or ask questions that are already answered in earlier posts if they would just take the time to read them.

Hellebore
18-09-2007, 08:33
*sigh* Read my posts earlier in the thread very carefully. I make specific mention in my post of an UNDEGENERATE Old One leftover as the likely culprit, not the degenerate ones. Over and over again people misunderstand or ask questions that are already answered in earlier posts if they would just take the time to read them.

But you said yourself that the necron codex only makes mention of DEGENERATE slann. Your position is that a NON degenerate slann created the tau, but as evidence you site DEGENERATE slann. I understood your post, you just used contradictory evidence.

How is that logical? Thus I took your evidence - degenerate old ones and tried to figure out how they could have done it.

There is more evidence for eldar intervention (in the form of the eldar stealing the Q'orl queen) then there is for a NON degenerate old one.

Hellebore

Iracundus
18-09-2007, 08:40
Xenology makes mention of a non-degenerate Old One, meaning the possibility isn't that outrageous. The Necron Codex says the Old One civilization collapsed. It never ever said the Old Ones went extinct or all became degenerate. There's a difference between that and having one's galaxy spanning civilization fall apart.

To re-capitulate: The Old Ones as a race never died out as the Necron Codex confirms there exist at the very least somewhat significant numbers of degenerate Slann that the C'tan still like to snack on. The Necron Codex also never states the Old Ones all went degenerate, only that their civilization as a whole collapsed. Xenology makes an example of a non-degenerate Old One fiddling with the Hrud so we have a precedent for non-degenerates surviving though presumably they are extremely rare. It is not entirely far fetched to think one could have fiddled with the Tau, even if it isn't necessarily the same Old One that touched the Hrud.

LordXaras
18-09-2007, 09:08
I made a relevant post here: http://warseer.com/forums/40k-background/102026-confusion-about-the-war-in-heaven.html

Can't be bothered to summarize.

Ikkaan
18-09-2007, 09:25
Contradicting earlier posts about the effect of the pheromones: Not all tau have to breathe them...there wouldnīt be enough ethereals to dust them all the time. Its not of importance - the important bit is that most of the strategic positions in the military and government are filled with ethereals...and their bold advisors (which are looked upon by the citizens) always say "yes oh glorious one" after debating the ethereals ideas.

Indoctrination from the beginning -> democratic System where experience ranks an individual higher -> ethereals influence the important persons -> total control.

Bob tau and jane tau donīt have to be under influence all the time. Their topmost superiors probably are when they go and ask the ethereals.

Rockerfella
18-09-2007, 13:30
Its just pure supposition that the old Slaan were THE old ones. I Don't think they were to be honest, as I don't think its every actually stated that they are.

For me, and for what its worth, the Slaan are probably the servant race of the Old ones, their firstborn as such. They probably know much about the old ones and their tech, but i'm not happy with the Slaan being OLD ONES themselves. I think the old ones have pretty much died out i'm afraid.

Iracundus
18-09-2007, 13:49
Not pure supposition. If you had taken the time to read the earlier posts, the Necron Codex has been mentioned as canonical source multiple times by me and another poster. Like has nothing to do with it either. Many people don't like the Tau but like it or not, they exist. The same goes for this case as well.


The C'tan still have an abiding hatred of their ancient enemies, the Old Ones. Although their civilisation is no more, it is possible that some degenerate descendants of theirs still live on backwater worlds. These rather tragic creatures are a choice delicacy to the C'tan so they attach a disproportionate importance to seeking them out...You could even have some fun by using a Warhammer Lizardmen army...

That from Necron Codex p. 61. Note it says degenerate descendants of the Old Ones, not degenerate descendants of Old One servants but the Old Ones themselves. Of the choices in a Lizardmen army, the only one that fits the role of intelligent leader with major psychic power potential is the Slann. Connect the dots then: the Slann as shown in WHFB Lizardmen armies are an example of degenerate Old Ones hence Old Ones were/are Slann.

Rockerfella
18-09-2007, 14:32
Yes, pure supposition. I did read your first few posts, but after wading through the procrastinated drivel and other such nonsense time and time again I decided it give it up as a bad idea. I like Tautology, but repetition for effect is not your strongest point.

Right, so where are we now. Ok, firstly I think its fair to say that ^^^ certainly does NOT say one way or another whether the Slaan are OLD ones. I'm a decendent of a chimpanzee alledgedly, but i'm not one, I promise. Trust me. I'm also the descendant of several different types of fish that once decided to grow legs and crawl from the promordial soup, but that certainly does NOT make me a fish young sir. See where this is going? Also, take care to read a quote if you're going to use it to whack someone over the head with it. Read it carefully, please, for the sake of your own argument. It clearly states 'it is POSSIBLE some degenerate descendants......' etc. The word 'possible' by its very nature is inconclusive in terms of this argument. Its possible i'm going to win the mens Wimbledon final next year, but i can promise you I wont.

Even if there are certain degenerate descendants of the old ones still around, they most certainly wouldn't (after 60 million years of evolution) be ANYTHING like the old ones i'm talking about. Oh wait, that was supposition. I apologise, see.. thats me recognising the fact i'm interpreting something in a manner that purely benefits my argument. You would be wise to do the same. :)

Right, no offense meant, but as your last post was a little haughty and slightly rude, I thought I would reply in kind. Also, i'm not in the mood for nonsesne, so I guess we'll see how this goes. If this gets sillier than it already has done, PM me and we'll sort it out privately.

Cheers!

Ikkaan
18-09-2007, 17:10
1Well, its taking a gritty note...calm down :angel: Not a major problem, isnīt it ?

40K as a product line is notorious for leaving loose ends in the background, so other authors can pick them up later, spin a little bit and leave loose ends at the end again. Some of those ideas contradict each other.

If i was to write background and leave loose ends i would also claim that there are degenerate (or whatever adjective i wish to use) Old Ones. They are not active since ages in 40K and never show up in the novels - no danger of ruining the work of other authors. Maybe they are somewhere. Maybe the Slaan are decendants, degenerate versions, or just physical hosts for the Old Ones (in that case they could be just dumb reptiles, duh).

And, the lizardmen are from WFB, not 40K. Both games took their own course years ago. GW tries to seperate them with every new publication, so any similarities should be discarded imho.

Iracundus
18-09-2007, 21:29
Although it claims possible, it then goes forth to address the issue as more than just a possibility but as a reality by saying these creatures are a choice delicacy not "may be" a choice delicacy. It is more than just possible. It is. It shows the C'tan know about the existence of such beings and like their taste, with the use of the word "are" implying the C'tan have had experience consuming their kind before and have found it to their liking. It is not pure supposition when it is addressed in such clear terms.

And indeed the supposition that somehow the degenerates of the modern 40K era not being the Old Ones of before is pure unsupported supposition without any quote to back up. The Necron Codex in its first mention of the race known as the Old Ones says they were a long lived nigh immortal race. That's again direct from the Codex. A race like that doesn't evolve quickly due to long generation time. That's also again a known thing from biology. There is also no evidence for any genetic modification of the Old Ones themselves, so that line of thought again goes into the realm of pure speculation with no grounds to support it. There exist organisms on Earth today that have highly conserved traits with little variation over tens of millions of years or more, so it is not utterly impossible for the Slann to be unchanged biologically from the time of the War in Heaven.

Attempt to use evidence if you're going to try and debate a point. I've brought evidence to the table. You haven't. Also I suggest you read up on evolution and dispel some of those misconceptions you have, because you and other humans are not chimpanzee descendants.

The fact GW themselves said to use Lizardmen in the Necron Codex shows the link between the common thematics and elements of their two product lines. Even if one goes by the current party line of separated universes compared to the original one universe, the fact remains they have common characters such as the Old Ones, Chaos gods, and N'kari. By referencing one in the other such as in that Necron Codex quote, one cannot simply discard it as it is explicitly making a link between the Old Ones of 40K and the Old Ones of WHFB, and tying them to the Slann.

Nargrakhan
19-09-2007, 02:13
Slaan manipulating the "younger races" for a Great War... C'tan manipulating the "younger races" for a Great War...

What's next? Construction of a space station for "one last best hope for peace?"

:p

Ikkaan
19-09-2007, 09:20
Attempt to use evidence if you're going to try and debate a point. I've brought evidence to the table. You haven't. Also I suggest you read up on evolution and dispel some of those misconceptions you have, because you and other humans are not chimpanzee descendants.

Youīre tying warhammer to the real universe science and use "evidence" in the same sentence...funny...

Born Again
19-09-2007, 09:45
Ok... maybe I'm just looking at this all wrong, but I can't see why the Old Ones/ Slaan/ Whatever you wanna call them would be interested in creating the Tau. The Tau a psychically blank (important to note the difference between negatives like Culexus assassins and blanks like Tau), making them incorruptible to Chaos. What does this do to help the Old Ones? Despite the fact that the Enslaver plague was eating up all their children races, Warp entities seem to aid the Old Ones in the end: their the only things capable of totally destroying the C'Tan, as the Warp is anathema to them. Eldar, on the other hand, have plenty of reason to create a race that cannot be corrupted, hence perfect to fight against their ultimate enemy of chaos.
If it was the Harlequins who kidnapped the Q'Orl queen, this doesn't necessarily indicate Cegorach was involved. The Harlequins may have been acting on their own. Or, try this for a head trip: Isn't it known that the Deceiver masqueraded as Cegorach at least once? What if he still is, and is using the Harlequins to fight against Chaos? We know the C'Tan want to shut off the Warp from the Material universe...

LordXaras
19-09-2007, 10:26
Or, try this for a head trip: Isn't it known that the Deceiver masqueraded as Cegorach at least once? What if he still is, and is using the Harlequins to fight against Chaos? We know the C'Tan want to shut off the Warp from the Material universe...All Eldar are extremely psychic - large parts of their society are built on this fact. Humans feel uncomfortable around blanks and untouchable, and absolutely horrified when in the vicinity of someone with a negative presence - this is because all humans have a slight warp connection (soul). Now, imagine the Eldar who have a psychic sensitivity that might be hundreds of times greater than the average human and how they would react if Cegorach suddenly had no psychic signature.

Iracundus
19-09-2007, 11:43
An Old One interest in creating the Tau, or accelerating their development, would have been to as said many times before, to attempt to create a race to beat the Necrons in their own area of material universe technology, given the repeated failures and side effects of the psychic approach. By having them be dull in the warp, it avoids the messes the psychically active races have caused. Warp entities don't aid the Old Ones. It was the masses of Enslavers pouring into the material universe along with the pressure from the Necrons that collapsed the Old One civilization so while psychic races may have had some effect against the Necrons, the side effects were devastating.

Rockerfella
19-09-2007, 14:07
Or, try this for a head trip: Isn't it known that the Deceiver masqueraded as Cegorach at least once? What if he still is, and is using the Harlequins to fight against Chaos? We know the C'Tan want to shut off the Warp from the Material universe...

Well, its been suggested that Cegorach and the Deciever both masqueraded as each other through out the war in heaven, but its never been anything other than a rumour. :)

We do know Cegorach pretended to be other C'tan however. :angel:

Cheers!

Born Again
21-09-2007, 10:50
All Eldar are extremely psychic - large parts of their society are built on this fact. Humans feel uncomfortable around blanks and untouchable, and absolutely horrified when in the vicinity of someone with a negative presence - this is because all humans have a slight warp connection (soul). Now, imagine the Eldar who have a psychic sensitivity that might be hundreds of times greater than the average human and how they would react if Cegorach suddenly had no psychic signature.

Aha, very true. Hadn't thought of that.:rolleyes: well like I said... just a crazy conspiracy theory. Ignore my rambling then.


An Old One interest in creating the Tau, or accelerating their development, would have been to as said many times before, to attempt to create a race to beat the Necrons in their own area of material universe technology, given the repeated failures and side effects of the psychic approach. By having them be dull in the warp, it avoids the messes the psychically active races have caused. Warp entities don't aid the Old Ones. It was the masses of Enslavers pouring into the material universe along with the pressure from the Necrons that collapsed the Old One civilization so while psychic races may have had some effect against the Necrons, the side effects were devastating.

I'm not suggesting they were aiding them intentionally in an alliance, but if your arch enemy suddenly encountered a new enemy that did some damage to you but totally annihilated them, which you had been largely unable to do, would you be willing to accept that damage to see them destroyed?