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Moepho
17-09-2007, 17:55
Is there any point in taking these guys anymore in 7th edition? For those that do, how are you deploying them?

RavenBloodwind
17-09-2007, 18:07
My regular opponent frequently plays skaven and I've been playing wood elves quite a bit lately.

Our basic finding is that I cannot resist shooting his weapon teams and he cannot find a placement to prevent me from doing so.

The only valid arguement for them would be that if I'm shooting the weapon team I'm not shooting something else, but frankly a 60-75pt weapon team is a LOT more points than I could possibly kill in clanrats/stormvermin/slaves, etc.

So the short answer he's been coming to grips with is that they're impossible to defend and against armies with plenty of shooting they just don't earn their keep.

kyussinchains
17-09-2007, 18:46
against welves weapon teams struggle because all of the high BS characters sniping away at them.

I find that my weapon teams take the heat off my plague monks, censer bearers and other targets

ZeroTwentythree
17-09-2007, 19:25
I usually field a few (2 RG, 1 WFT in 2150-2250 point games) and either hug terrain, or have them tightly between and slightly behind two big blocks of troops in order to limit enemy LOS to them. (Try to make it so that only shooters directly in front of them will have LOS).

Other than that, I'm just hoping that they do something to make them more reasonable when the skaven get their turn at a new book, since it's gone from the RG being too powerful to both weapon teams being a significant waste of points unless your opponent chooses to ignore them.

Deathjester
17-09-2007, 19:54
personally i tend to put them behind a unit of slaves, and next to the parent unit, you have to be sure that you be sure that your units are close togeather as they can be so nothing can draw line of sight to your weapons team, the only thing you have to look out for are shooting units on hills, but if you can remove them as quickly as you can then you're set for the rest of the game.

Moepho
18-09-2007, 17:39
personally i tend to put them behind a unit of slaves, and next to the parent unit, you have to be sure that you be sure that your units are close togeather as they can be so nothing can draw line of sight to your weapons team, the only thing you have to look out for are shooting units on hills, but if you can remove them as quickly as you can then you're set for the rest of the game.

Wouldn't that block your own LOS? Or do you just wait to fire until something gets engaged?

Oberon
18-09-2007, 17:44
You canīt shoot even then, if you donīt see them. Maybe he moves the slave block before shooting phase, so he suddenly has LOS? I first tried with 3 ratling guns, got fed up with them when they got shot in one turn->now I use magic and 1-2 WLC :)

fubukii
18-09-2007, 18:01
they are wastes a points no matter how much u hide them 1 archer unit on a hill will kill every weapon team you have before you even get to shoot them. a excellent way to waste 180pts.

Not what you can do instead is add in More units with the points you save from not getting weapon teams you can add a tunnel team for mage hunting and or war machine killing, A slave unit, Some cheap 5 man night runner units for claimng corners and protecting your warp lightning cannons, A warp lightning cannon, Another character etc.

forgottenlor
18-09-2007, 18:42
I'm not sure they are a waste of points. I also hide them behind my slaves in a checkerboard pattern sort of like this:

......................Slaves.....................S laves
Clanrats....... WT........... Clanrats...... WT......Clanrats

I block all line of sight until I am within 15 inches. In my last game I killed 7 dark elf corsairs with one (84 points and made the units pretty much combat ineffective) and helped shoot down a manticore with another (who is a big target). There was a hill, but I got lucky and got to place it. This sort of tactic requires patience. Also if you luck out and are playing an army with little or no shooting, then look out!

Moepho
18-09-2007, 19:55
they are wastes a points no matter how much u hide them 1 archer unit on a hill will kill every weapon team you have before you even get to shoot them. a excellent way to waste 180pts.

Not what you can do instead is add in More units with the points you save from not getting weapon teams you can add a tunnel team for mage hunting and or war machine killing, A slave unit, Some cheap 5 man night runner units for claimng corners and protecting your warp lightning cannons, A warp lightning cannon, Another character etc.

Do you think it would be worth it to take those points and give your clanrats spears to help make up for lost wounds? Lots of VC and Dwarves players in my area so breaking a unit isn't always a sure thing.

gerrymander61
18-09-2007, 20:13
Since 7th i've reduced the numbers down to 1 ratling and 1 WFT but they're still far from useless, and I can block sight of them just by keeping them between slaves and Clanrats sorta like

Slaves

WFT Clanrats

And move the clanrats up and down or slaves over depending on where they go. In my last game I camped my ratling gun out near my Jezzails and WLC behind a hill and it earned a pile of points killing Dark Riders and Harpies. Or another time, same kind of story except with a tomb scorpion.

Basically, yes it's hard to keep them from dying in 7th. Nigh on impossible vs wood elves, but they're still far from useless. They're much less useful at doing the job that they previously did, but you just need to broaden your perspective and see what else they can be doing. Again, WLC is terrible at killing warmachine hunters, and I dont think there's an artillery piece in the game more vulnerable to hunters than the WLC. Jezzails aren't bad at it, but it would be a waste of a turn for them when they could otherwise be shooting at Dragon lord or grail knights. A ratling gun however is perfect for defending said machines. And the WFT is much easier to protect and still be able to get shots off with.

This is horribly cliche but, think outside the box with weapons teams and they're not so horrible.

ZeroTwentythree
18-09-2007, 20:21
Forgot to mention this (gerrymander61 reminded me), but I have learned that it is a valuable use for weapon teams...

Keep them behind your army against some opponents. Knights, chariots, dragon ogres, and saurus or WE characters with magic fairy boots (or whatever) and other fast troops that tend to break through your lines get a nasty surprise. Also discourages fliers from landing behind you or sneaking around your flanks.

Just a possible use. I've never put them in my army list specifically for the backfield, but have put them to that use numerous times as needed.

forgottenlor
19-09-2007, 06:55
I agree with Zero twenty three. Lets also not forget large targets. You can always shoot them even if your own troops are in the way.

DeathlessDraich
19-09-2007, 17:22
Seems I'm in the minority here. :eek:

1) I still use them but in a different way from the past and I adjust my tactics to suit the army I'm facing.

2)In the last small tournament, I used 4 Ratling guns to very good effect.
By turn 6, usually all 4 Ratling guns would have been destroyed by shooting or magic but my opponents suffered heavier losses in doing so.

3) Long range shooting is a problem and is dependent on tunnellers emerging early.

4) Without the supporting shooting and magic, Skaven feels naked.:p

5) Against WE, the Ratling gun's magical shooting is a huge deterrent for Dryads, Forest Spirits and Wardancers. Skaven vs WE makes an interesting battle as deployment, terrain and manoeuvres are crucial to each side.

fubukii
20-09-2007, 04:19
Assuming you can protect the wpn teams and they do get to shoot they sure do wreak havoc. Im just saying if you get unlucky, and your enemy gets a hill, theres no way whats so ever (unless you keep them hidden in terrain) to svae their fragile hides >.<. ALso they are pretty pricey and i prefer to get as many troops as possible in my armies.

DeathlessDraich
20-09-2007, 11:19
My fav tactic against enemy archers on a hill is to cast magic missiles with the W Engineer in the back rank and safe from a combat commitment.
3 Warplightning spells plus Storm Daemon concentrated on the same archer unit. Inevitably 1 spell per turn if not 2 will get through and reduce their shooting to 2 rounds if they don't panic.

Oberon
20-09-2007, 18:16
Had a game today against empire, and tried the ratling gun again. I took three, reasoning that some would get shot, and my opponent has fielded~60 flagellants regularly in the past weeks. I won the roll of for the hill-side and kept the ratling guns in between my blocks. Checkerboard deployment worked out nicely. After slaves baited the steam tank in the wrong direction (it ended up in the corner, slaves and one block of clanrats on its kill count) the ratling guns were easy to keep safe and open firing lanes when needed. None were destroyed! :0
If the enemy has no hills, they can very well survive until firing. Gunlines might be a bit easier than all-encompassing steamrollers, as RGs are prone to panic :/ Anyway faith restored, at least partly.

fubukii
20-09-2007, 18:47
warped lightning is such a Amazing spell id rather use it to kill real units like, elite infantry or knights it seems like such a waste on archers >.<