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james4191
18-09-2007, 15:43
I've just got the new CSM codex, and after reading it i'm wondering what happenned to the original traitor legions, and where did all these millions of renegades come from that never seemed to exist before? Anyway, i'm dissapointed with the army list as most units have been watered down and are basically spikey loyalist marines. Any other IW players out there will have also noticed the dissapearance of basilisks and servo-arms. The vindicator option is good as you can now field more than one, but with only three heavy support choices, this isn't likely.

I'm not bothered about the cut down of obliteraters as this doesn't affect me, but I don't like the wargear available for your lords. Gone are the special options such as bionics and other bits and pieces. Now its just a marine with a power weapon and pistol, no special rules to make it a combat monster or assault specialst etc. The vet. skills have also gone, so no more siege specialists either. i do however like the ten man squads you can now buy and the icons which let you retake failed morale tests.

All in all i'm not impressed with this codex. It feels like they rushed it to catch up with the new rules. The artwork is also almost completely lifted from the old codex, and the stuff that isn't lokks like a three year old.

Anyway, if you play Iron Warriors then let me know what you feel about the changes and any solutions to some of the problems you find.:skull:

Twisted Ferret
18-09-2007, 15:48
I hate the new Legion-neutral rules. :( I think it takes character away from the Traitor Legions. The SM get chapters, why can't we get our legions?!

Polonius
18-09-2007, 15:51
This has been a hot topic for about two months now, and I'm sure most folks are burnt out on it. The legion rules are gone, of course, but you can still build a fun IW list from what's in there.

IW got hit harder than anyone else because they lost effectively 4 heavy support slots (the bonus one, plus 3 elite oblit units.)

Take a look at the terminators, take your nine oblits, 3 squads of termies with combi-weapons, and your opponents will fear the Iron-wing. Through in two slaanesh princes with lash, and either noise marines or 1k sons to taste.

Vesica
18-09-2007, 15:52
I have yet to see the new codex but from what i have herd it seems just like a marine codex with a few extra options, but i have herd that they might be putting something in the Daemon based codex to make 'real' chaos legions.

lord_blackfang
18-09-2007, 15:54
Servo-arms: count as powerfists
Basilisk: either convert into a (Possessed) Vindicator, or save for Apocalypse games, where you can still legally field it in a Chaos army
Bionics and other minor upgrades: you get the cool models without having to pay for a very minor rules benefit

Hope that helps. Tell us if you have any other specific problems.

Upside: You get your Berserkers back. ;)

Vaktathi
18-09-2007, 16:14
While us IW players lost alot, I think being able to field a huge number of terminators and/or raptors and cheaper/more Daemon Princes compensates alot. Of course it still wont be the horrendously shooty IW list we all know and love, but there are some upsides. Losing alot of the wargear kinda sucks, it does take out alot of flavor, but the HQ's are generally cheaper now as well.

I find being able to field 20 terminators, 30 marines, 3 Predators, and a flying Daemon Prince a rather hideous combination that still remains pretty close to what an IW army should be (or 20 termi's with 2 squads of berserkers and 9 oblits with a flying daemon prince). IW themed armies basically are going to be more CC oriented than they used to be, but you can still get in alot of shooty. Personally I never used the bassy, I'm not a huge fan of them, so I dont really feel their loss. I actually think the IW drawback of 2 less FA would hurt far more in the new codex than the old one, with 20pt raptors available :D

also, the Icons are just the Marks of Chaos renamed for the most part, you could take the Mark of Chaos undivided in the old codex to reroll morale tests, its just now if the Icon bearer is killed you lose the benefit.

basically overall, the IW armies of the 3.5 ed codex are gone forever, as are all the legion based armies for the most part. That said, there are some upsides such as dirt cheap terminators.

EDIT: In before someone posts "cry for your lost IW cheese"

Baneboss
18-09-2007, 16:20
no special rules to make it a combat monster or assault specialst

What is the difference beetwen these 2? I seriously have no idea.


I hate the new Legion-neutral rules. :( I think it takes character away from the Traitor Legions. The SM get chapters, why can't we get our legions?!

Because chapters are more or less 1000 men strong while legions are legions... ohh wait, that doesnt make any sense :)

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-09-2007, 16:20
Wondered how long it would take....

Perhaps you just to need to overhaul your list.

Me, I've gone with a rather pokey Nurgle List which exploits the Icon system to the full. Plenty enough Teleport Homers means lots of fired up Terminator Champions and 3 Obliterators arriving *exactly where I want them*

trigger
18-09-2007, 16:23
the traitor lists will be coming out over the next few years (so ive heard) so at the moment bro... you is gunna have to live with it
i think GW are on some sort of LETS SE HOW FAR WE CAN PUSH PEOPLE!!! trip or somthing the codex are just getting worse and worse.....



HEY MR. GW i know your reading this...A bit of advice for ya
IF ITS NOT BROKE DONT FIX IT!
40K AINT BROKE SO LEAVE IT ALONE
go and do somthing usefull like...........figuring a way of dropping your prices to get back the people you have already lost, Your not compeating any more....
sorry rant over:D

james4191
18-09-2007, 16:27
A note on the servo arms, I was thinking of counting at as a daemon weapon when combined with the power sword, but as this requirs 2 hands, does this mean I have to drop the plasma pistol, or can he keep that and just not use it in CC, nd so lose his extra attack?

MrBigMr
18-09-2007, 16:30
You think IW got it bad. How would you feel like after buying FW sonic dreadnoughts and converting a ton of sonic weapons for terminators etc. and not they're all just "no can do." I gave the new codex the finger and switched to the SM codex with my chaos army as it had all the options I like and need for the army.

The old codex was sweet with all the niftly little things like gifts and such. Yes, one could abuse those for power gaming, but I don't see how 2 daemon princes, 9 obliterators and 3 squads of cheap terminators is not power gaming. All those niftly little things gave so much more reason for modelling than just having a nifty model with no difference to stock GW model.

The 'extensive' options for Chaos marines is like a bad joke right now. I don't realy see where GW is going with this. Ok, it's cool that they make things easier with the "this unit can take these options", but at the same time those options are pretty crappy. Even a SM sergeants gets more options than an aspiring lord of chaos.

Just my 2 eurocents.

Durath
18-09-2007, 16:37
Isn't GW planning on a "Legions" Codex in the future, where the old school legions get their own lists?

I could have swore I read that somewhere.

MrBigMr
18-09-2007, 16:41
I could have swore I read that somewhere.
Propably the same place where all this SM codex redux crap comes from.

Raven1
18-09-2007, 16:59
I have heard that The legions would be getting their own rules. I mean all it would take is something from WD. Heck, before the 3.5 codex, the Index Astartes had special rules for the Chaos Legions. Anyway, I never used servo-arms, maybe i'm missing something, but I never used them. The bassislisk will be waiting in the box for Apocalypse.

UncleCrazy
18-09-2007, 17:23
You must be a newer player and have never read the first Chaos Codex. The New 4th ed Codex is a lot like the First Chaos in 2nd ed. Even the lay out is the same.

As for the GW's work on the codic I would say they have gone old school with the way the Codic work.

thechosenone
18-09-2007, 17:25
I have just started my iron warriors army, my fifth chaos army. I know what they were capable of before and it was just ugly game play to be honest. To have an army with 3 up saves, three templates coming at you indirectly and nine obliterators pumping twin linked plasma at you was nasty and not in a good nasty way but bad nasty way. If winning is really that important that all semblance of fun needs to go out the window then i'm sorry GW took that from the codex.

For me, i think the new dex is nice. All my previous armies are all legion specific and everything is still there for me top play my Thousand Sons, Emperor's children and my word bearers (Though i did lose my demon power now they just act as speed bumps). My Lost and the damned are a bit in limbo right now. Its like with eldar where craftworlds are gone but all the options are still there. The lists are fair now, there's no slaughtering an opponent helplessly. Also, you can't spend like 1,000 points on chosen and make 300 point demon princes. Was that fun to do, sure but ultimatly pointless.

I think a lot of the character we're complaining is missing will show up in the suposed Codex: Agents of Chaos. If NOT then i might start joining the "Hate the Dex" bandwagon

RUSSADER
18-09-2007, 17:27
Basis are going to be in apoc, so no worries there. The only thing that really butt raped the IW was the loss of the servo arms. It is because with the new dex you no longer can purchase parasidic possession for vehicles. Yes we all know that the Rhinos have something similar, but that doesn't stand anywhere near close to two land raiders side by side. same equiptment on both. But the Imperial one have a Techmarine and three servators as its cargo and the Choas one has jack squat. We no longer have anything to repair viehicles. We had the servo arms because they were pre heresy. Imperial has servo harnesses and and servators, which is fair since they would have the newer stuff. But to say we can't wear a servo arm is outragious.

The thing about the arms that gats me most is that if someone says that the new dex is based more for renegades then I challenge you, why wouldn't Choas have any servo harnesses? A whole squad renegades and leaves behind their Techs equiptment???

The_Warsmith
18-09-2007, 17:35
to be honest as an iron warrior player i love the new codex, the last codex i could just sit back and blast away like a good iron warrior should but this list has given us a wide list of new options and tactical aproaches to experiment with, and why would close combat IW be unfluffy? how do you think we take fortresses? sit back and wait for the guardsmen to die of collera 3 months later? we take them with the chainsword and the daemon weapon :D

so what i've lost the character of my army, under this codex with a little thinking and some clever conversions you can create a very themed army, i was disapointed at the loss of my basilisk and i still miss it but it took me no more thn 5 minuites to turn it into a possessed vindicator.

E-Dog
18-09-2007, 17:41
I was a little pissed at first too, being an IW myself. This is the first I've heard of no servo-arms or bionics, that sucks I liked the servo.

Upside is dreds moved to an elite choice which kind of frees up a heavy slot (for my army anyway). And as someone else said Beserkers are back whoo-hoo!!! IW w/mark of Khorne I'll take 'em. Try and look on the bright side so what if your bassie is a vindicator now.

ChaosMaster
18-09-2007, 17:43
And in Apocalypse games, Chaos can use all Imperial formations, so Basilisks can still be Chaos Basilisks rather than "counts as" Vindicators when using Codex Apocalypse rules.

The_Warsmith
18-09-2007, 17:48
it needed a new paint job anyway, so what the hell :D

another good thing about the new codex, IW noise marines, ok i hate slaanesh with a passion but the oportunity to field different heavy weapons to the usual las/plas is awesome

EarlGrey
18-09-2007, 17:50
Gone are the special options such as bionics and other bits and pieces. Now its just a marine with a power weapon and pistol, no special rules to make it a combat monster or assault specialst etc.


Have you seen the "Bloodfeeder" Daemon weapon?
2D6 extra attacks. I doubt there are any loyalist marines able to match that.

The new codex hasn't taken all that much away.
It's still very possible to field a Legion like list. Of course, it wont have the "special" things like the Servo arm or a Dark Apostle, but those things don't really make your army what it is.
It's all about what units you take.

Taking a Vindicator is quite different from taking a Greater Daemon.

lord_blackfang
18-09-2007, 17:54
A note on the servo arms, I was thinking of counting at as a daemon weapon when combined with the power sword, but as this requirs 2 hands, does this mean I have to drop the plasma pistol, or can he keep that and just not use it in CC, nd so lose his extra attack?

Yup, he can keep the pistol, he just doesn't get the extra attack. A daemon weapon servo-arm sounds quite cool, actually.

MutantMaggot
18-09-2007, 17:56
Isn't GW planning on a "Legions" Codex in the future, where the old school legions get their own lists?

I could have swore I read that somewhere.

I thought it was codexes similar to the way SM players have DA codexes, and BA codexes?

philbrad2
18-09-2007, 18:02
For IW and all the Traitor Legion players the new army list lack character in droves. Something, the now, old codex had in droves. Being as it was, introduced on the back of the Index Astartes series. IW have been hit but EC's are also a shadow of their former selves. I might even say IW got off fairly lightly. I was planning an EC army as they were just plain nasty but their claws & talons have been dulled with this latest codex. Far too much focus on Renegades for me, a rather dull list and wargear, the saving grace has been the new models. Personally I'd have liked to have seen 1K Sons fixed and the codex updated rather than stripped bare and rewritten. There will be good few more disgruntled EC players I think than IW ones IMHO.

My own IW had been evolving from a shooty army from hell (well Medrengard actually!) to a more close combat orientated army for a while. They feature a number of assault units with Furious Charge so not much change for me there. My Basilisk goes to my up and coming Traitor Guard army and another Vindicator or two will be on the shopping list.

I'm working out how my army will take to the field under the new rules. Change is good, a little revolution every now and again is good, but I think Chaos players have taken a step back with this codex rather than one forward. Another element of the Chambers/McNeill/Haines era is now defunct. I can only hope the rumoured "Runious Powers' list/codex has something to offer players of Traitor Legion based armies as the new codex doesn't seem to.

PhilB
:chrome:

Kahadras
18-09-2007, 18:03
HEY MR. GW i know your reading this...A bit of advice for ya
IF ITS NOT BROKE DONT FIX IT!
40K AINT BROKE SO LEAVE IT ALONE


Well I'm sure a lot of people agree with you but all I ever here is complaining that GW don't fix stuff. The amount of complaints over the last Chaos codex were an indication that GW maybe hadn't got it quite right but of course if it ain't broke.....

Kahadras

nooobie 69
18-09-2007, 18:08
well i've also got something to say for IW armies thateveryone's missed... the rhino is now really cheap. so you put you'r troops in rhinos to do drive by's oyu have you'r dreadnoughts in eliets and 3 other tanks or whatever from heavy support.

Damien 1427
18-09-2007, 18:11
To be honest I can live with the lack of Bassies, as mine was sealed away after a few games in favour of Dreadnoughts.

However, the "little things" like Bionics and Servo-Arms did make the army a bit, well, fluffier. Combined with the bionic insanity you could wreak with the Gifts (Mecha-spider legs for Speed, huge servos for Strength, Dreadnoughts for Stature...) it could be made to look rather cool, and those little things could be a shade more than just aesthetics.

Though I do agree with the scrapping of the Legion lists for the time being, my thoughts on the latest incarnation of the codex is well known.

Polonius
18-09-2007, 18:18
IW aren't going to be as strongly distinguished as before, but they will probobly play closer to fluff. I would have liked to see a compromise between abolishing legions and having 15 pages of tiny print rules.

Even a few brief rules, similar to IG doctrines, would make armies really stand out. For example, IW armies could take a heavy weapon under 10 men, and can buy tank hunters for their havocs for 3pts, but lose access to Princes, daemons, and greater daemons. that's off the top of my head, but it could focus the legions a little, while not being abusive.

Gop
19-09-2007, 01:40
I feel my poor old IW have been severely vanillerised. Time to sell off my bassy, oblits etc. <sigh> might be time to sell the lot actually :(

jhon
19-09-2007, 02:00
i use to fill 5 troop choice,one non-prince HQ and 2 heavy support in my IW army at a1.5 kpts game . but since now , the tremie is dirt cheap i m planning on fill some in my IW . and my new list will be 3 tremie/combie weapon squad 3 bike squad with MoT Icon and melta , two min size troops chioce ,and a MoT prince . i dont know which list is chesseser but i havent lose any game with my new list yet. therefore for all the fellow IW user the new dex is borad but powerful .

RavenMorpheus
19-09-2007, 02:22
I hate the new Legion-neutral rules. :( I think it takes character away from the Traitor Legions. The SM get chapters, why can't we get our legions?!

Because legions open the game up for conversion and scratch building and that don't sell stuff for GW and costs them more to produce because the rulebooks become bigger.

Not to mention the extra hours of people playtesting they'd have to pay for.

IMO the way all the codices have gone is the wrong direction. I was dissapointed with both the Eldar and Dark Angels codices, they were both watered down and had more taken out than put in thus not providing value for money imo, I just hope I'm not as disapointed with the Chaos one, but from reading stuff here it seems I will be.

UncleCrazy
19-09-2007, 02:34
Well I had no problem playing a pure WE army using the new list.

You don't need specail rules to play IW you just need to think what would they use, and not be like "ummm look at all the new toys."

Phenski
19-09-2007, 02:45
still SOOOOOOOOOOOO glad IW's have been watered down...

now we may see different chaos armies at tourneys

cailus
19-09-2007, 02:52
And in Apocalypse games, Chaos can use all Imperial formations, so Basilisks can still be Chaos Basilisks rather than "counts as" Vindicators when using Codex Apocalypse rules.

This is a bit daft. Apocalypse is games of 3000 points or more. Not everyone plays that sort of level of game and not everyone owns 3000 points of models.

Basically unless you play Apocalypse, your Bassie is GONE.

Vaktathi
19-09-2007, 03:00
still SOOOOOOOOOOOO glad IW's have been watered down...

now we may see different chaos armies at tourneys

You will probably see alot of "Iron Warriors Lite" armies now that Oblits are HS with no restrictions. so lots of 9 Oblit, Flying prince (EDIT: with Lash) armies with 3 squads of FNP Plague Marines and a squad of Khornate icon Raptors or something along those lines.

Negrodamus
19-09-2007, 03:43
why cant you just use the old list in fun games. I don't see how the new chaos dex overides the legion specifics codexes since they are just that - legion specific. It would be like codex dark angels overiding the original marine dex

Ddraiglais
19-09-2007, 04:02
Servo-arms: count as powerfists
Basilisk: either convert into a (Possessed) Vindicator, or save for Apocalypse games, where you can still legally field it in a Chaos army
Bionics and other minor upgrades: you get the cool models without having to pay for a very minor rules benefit

Hope that helps. Tell us if you have any other specific problems.

Upside: You get your Berserkers back. ;)

So you can repair vehicles with powerfists now?:p

Nine bassies delivering uber template death. I can't wait.

You can have entire squads equipped with bionics. Plaguemarines (FNP) rules do nicely IMO.

I hate the new dex, but with Apocalypse coming, it doesn't worry me that much. I will just have to listen to my wife complain every weekend while I push the living room furniture against the walls. With Apocalypse I will get more warmachines for my IW. I will get a boxed set of NINE bassies and a chimera. I will get rules for my airforce. I will be able to bring my Legio Mortis allies. I will be able to bring traitor guard artillery. I can't wait for Apocalypse.

All that being said, if Apocalypse wasn't coming, I would have quit the game with the release of the new CSM codex.

Grimshawl
19-09-2007, 04:20
to be honest as an iron warrior player i love the new codex, the last codex i could just sit back and blast away like a good iron warrior should but this list has given us a wide list of new options and tactical aproaches to experiment with, and why would close combat IW be unfluffy? how do you think we take fortresses? sit back and wait for the guardsmen to die of collera 3 months later? we take them with the chainsword and the daemon weapon :D

so what i've lost the character of my army, under this codex with a little thinking and some clever conversions you can create a very themed army, i was disapointed at the loss of my basilisk and i still miss it but it took me no more thn 5 minuites to turn it into a possessed vindicator.

none of these suposidly new things you tout couldnt have been done with the old list, eargo they are not new improved options for you the player.

RavenMorpheus
19-09-2007, 04:22
I tell you what I'm annoyed at about the new chaos - the new Chaos Terminator lord.

They've done him in plastic and he's got what appear to be 2 lightning claws.

I had to spend 20-30 on parts to get a conversion done for that and it was all in metal as well grrr :mad:

james4191
19-09-2007, 06:24
So you can repair vehicles with powerfists now?:p

Nine bassies delivering uber template death. I can't wait.

You can have entire squads equipped with bionics. Plaguemarines (FNP) rules do nicely IMO.

I hate the new dex, but with Apocalypse coming, it doesn't worry me that much. I will just have to listen to my wife complain every weekend while I push the living room furniture against the walls. With Apocalypse I will get more warmachines for my IW. I will get a boxed set of NINE bassies and a chimera. I will get rules for my airforce. I will be able to bring my Legio Mortis allies. I will be able to bring traitor guard artillery. I can't wait for Apocalypse.

All that being said, if Apocalypse wasn't coming, I would have quit the game with the release of the new CSM codex.
Servo arms counted as powerfists in close combat. How do you use 9 bassies in a non apocalypse game? The nurgle bionics idea is actually quite cool, thanks!

lord_blackfang
19-09-2007, 06:32
So you can repair vehicles with powerfists now?:p

Nine bassies delivering uber template death. I can't wait.

You can have entire squads equipped with bionics. Plaguemarines (FNP) rules do nicely IMO.

I hate the new dex, but with Apocalypse coming, it doesn't worry me that much. I will just have to listen to my wife complain every weekend while I push the living room furniture against the walls. With Apocalypse I will get more warmachines for my IW. I will get a boxed set of NINE bassies and a chimera. I will get rules for my airforce. I will be able to bring my Legio Mortis allies. I will be able to bring traitor guard artillery. I can't wait for Apocalypse.

All that being said, if Apocalypse wasn't coming, I would have quit the game with the release of the new CSM codex.

How often have your servo-arms really repaired something in-game? Seems like a waste to have a powerful model waste a turn behind a tank for the 1 in 6 chance of getting it going again...

Anyway, I'm glad you're dealing :)

Hrafn
19-09-2007, 06:45
I was dissapointed with both the Eldar and Dark Angels codices, they were both watered down and had more taken out than put in thus not providing value for money imo

Err...what exactly was "taken out" in the Eldar Codex? :confused:

RavenMorpheus
19-09-2007, 07:06
Sustained attack or whatever the exarch power was called and off the top of my head I think one of the farseer powers has been taken out and replace with something new, can't remember which one though.

And also the individual craftworld rules such as the ulthwe seer council, or the alaitoc ranger force or the wild riders of saim hann, pretty much everything that made each eldar force different no longer apply, now all you'll see is the pretty much the same force but painted in a different color (which whilst it may have happened before it wasn't because there wasn't the choice to vary your army) and I suspect the same will happen with chaos.

And as for the DA codex, well let me see, off the top of my head I can come up with two things taken out - artificier armour, and asmodai the chaplain, nuff said really.

CaptScott
19-09-2007, 07:48
Hopefully alot of these issues will be addressed over the next year or so.

The Ruinous Powers Codex (or whatever its called) will more than likely enable Chaos marine armies to start fielding god-specific deamons, and hopefully more customisable daemon prince's.

Additionally I can see GW releasing chapter specific stuff (probably in WD) some time in the future (like they did with the Blood angles a couple of months ago).

Well, I'm hoping they do...

:rolleyes:

Sovereign
19-09-2007, 08:27
I've just got the new CSM codex, and after reading it i'm wondering what happenned to the original traitor legions, and where did all these millions of renegades come from that never seemed to exist before?

Anyway, i'm dissapointed with the army list as most units have been watered down and are basically spikey loyalist marines.

Any other IW players out there will have also noticed the dissapearance of basilisks and servo-arms. The vindicator option is good as you can now field more than one, but with only three heavy support choices, this isn't likely.
Just as the Loyalist Legions broke into smaller Chapters, the Traitor Legions fractured into warbands. And just as there are new Loyalists being created, there are new Traitors from the ranks of fallen Loyalists.

That's your choice, but Chaos Marines *should* be spikey Marines.

Everybody has noticed the loss of Basilisks, and most everybody interested in balance applauds the change. CSM never should have had it in the first place. Same with the move to a normal FOC - that's good, too.

Sovereign
19-09-2007, 08:30
Err...what exactly was "taken out" in the Eldar Codex? :confused:
Court of the Young King
Pathfinder Disruption
Extra Rangers as Troops
Varied Aspects as Troops
Wraithlords as Troops
BS4 Guardians as Troops
Elite Jetbikes

and don't forget the nerfing to the Wraithlord and Starcannon...

machine_recovered_meat
19-09-2007, 08:41
Court of the Young King
Pathfinder Disruption
Extra Rangers as Troops
Varied Aspects as Troops
Wraithlords as Troops
BS4 Guardians as Troops
Elite Jetbikes


But these were not in Codex:Eldar [WH40K 3rd Edition or WH40K 2nd Edition] so they have not been "taken out" of the codex ;)

doomspittle
19-09-2007, 11:08
funny how nine times out of ten its the iron warriors players complaining ,wonder y!lol

Pieman
19-09-2007, 11:19
Court of the Young King
Pathfinder Disruption
Extra Rangers as Troops
Varied Aspects as Troops
Wraithlords as Troops
BS4 Guardians as Troops
Elite Jetbikes

and don't forget the nerfing to the Wraithlord and Starcannon...

All of which was added by an additional supplement codex. It wasn't in the main Eldar 'dex.
If you compare the 3rd edition 'dex with the 4th, the 4th is FAR superior in terms of design, background and army list.

Pathfinders are still in the list (big deal they changed slightly...). Also they weren't in the original Eldar 3rd edition 'dex were they?

You can still take Dire Avengers as troops. Maybe taking other aspects as troops was a bit unbalanced?

Don't even get me started on taking Wraithlords as troops.... that was a DUMB idea that needed to go IMHO

Who needs BS 4 Guardians when Dire Avengers are exactly that. They're troops too.

At least you can take Jetbikes as troops. Maybe the elite versions have gone, but wait... Shining Spears you say?

gitburna
19-09-2007, 12:08
Well frankly im happy that the new codex has come around. The nurgle devastators i made 15 years ago can now be used again as i intended them, the basilisk has gone from the list [Basilisks in a marine list, i ask you], Terminators are a much better cost now, Thousand sons are superior to the previous incarnation, [ i feel like this is the best incarnation of thousand sons to date].Psychic powers are much improved. Uber daemon princes have been toned back slightly in order for the mortal leaders to take centre stage again. The thing i am most pleased about is that you dont have to be in the deathguard/world eaters/thousand sons in order to worhsip the gods anymore. The whole list has gone far more Warband-ish, back to its Realm of Chaos roots in many ways.

Pieman
19-09-2007, 12:16
Completely unrelated, but Gitburna you have an awsome avatar!

DUH DUHDUHDUH ZILTOID!!!!!!!
*ARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!*
THE OM-NI-SCIENT!!!!

Silentbob10
19-09-2007, 12:19
I am happy as i could possibly be cos 1. Stealth adapt is gone and so u dnt get havoc squads with largly 3+ cover saves and 2. Iron warriors players cnt just sit back with as many heavy weapons as humanly possible now they have 3 heavy choices like the rest of us devoted heratics. sure u loose a couple things i.e daemonic speed which was a laugh on a deamon prince but everything seems to have worked out for the best.

Captain Micha
19-09-2007, 12:41
"Oh no I lost my special rules to represent everything on the table"

Why do people feel the need to have rules for everything under the sun?

I'm going to start complaining. That my firewarriors with knives don't get special rules! Since my arguement is every bit as valid.

Not everything is a special rule... If it were.. then they wouldn't be special now would they?

adreal
19-09-2007, 13:21
I've given up trying to tell players hte new dex is good and internally balanced, and i've used the new list in game. I'm just sick of it, you all want to bitch and sell off your stuff

www.ebay.com

just click and go from there, pretty much I'm saying there is the door, use it

Ddraiglais
19-09-2007, 13:29
Servo arms counted as powerfists in close combat. How do you use 9 bassies in a non apocalypse game? The nurgle bionics idea is actually quite cool, thanks!

I know that. I was joking. I addressed the post I quoted point for point. That point mentioned basilisks in Apocalypse. NP, if you can be creative enough, the new dex isn't that bad. It's bad, but not end of the World bad.



How often have your servo-arms really repaired something in-game? Seems like a waste to have a powerful model waste a turn behind a tank for the 1 in 6 chance of getting it going again...


Once or twice maybe. I agree. That's why there was a smile there.



Hopefully alot of these issues will be addressed over the next year or so.

The Ruinous Powers Codex (or whatever its called) will more than likely enable Chaos marine armies to start fielding god-specific deamons, and hopefully more customisable daemon prince's.

Additionally I can see GW releasing chapter specific stuff (probably in WD) some time in the future (like they did with the Blood angles a couple of months ago).

Well, I'm hoping they do...

:rolleyes:

I hope you're right.

That still doesn't help IW. A unique DP would be nice, but other daemons don't fit current fluff.

I really hope this happens. I keep seeing rumors that it will happen, but I'm not holding my breath.



Just as the Loyalist Legions broke into smaller Chapters, the Traitor Legions fractured into warbands. And just as there are new Loyalists being created, there are new Traitors from the ranks of fallen Loyalists.

That's your choice, but Chaos Marines *should* be spikey Marines.

Everybody has noticed the loss of Basilisks, and most everybody interested in balance applauds the change. CSM never should have had it in the first place. Same with the move to a normal FOC - that's good, too.

Not really. That's true of the WE. I'm sure other legions have had groups leave, but are mostly intact. The fluff surrounding BL and IW is pretty specific about them still being legions. I'll give you that grand companies usually fight amongst themselves, but they are still based on Mendrengard and will fight against common enemies.

No they shouldn't be. They should be spikey marines with daemonic gifts and more vets.

I love the idea of balance (even though it's impossible), and I hate the change. GW could have put more thought into the codex and balanced it. Make the bassie cost more for IW. Make the 4th HS choice cost more. It was possible to balance the lists in the old codex without tossing them out the window. As far as not having it in the first place, I agree a medusa would have been better. :D Taking away the extra HS is not good either. Again, it could have been fixed without tossing it.



funny how nine times out of ten its the iron warriors players complaining ,wonder y!lol

I'd love to see where you get your stats from. I have seen just as many (or more) EC and AL players lamenting the new codex. I have seen WE, WB, and other legion players complain. I have only seen one TS player complain, and that was because he didn't like the idea that his fairly unique army was going to become common.




Why do people feel the need to have rules for everything under the sun?

I'm going to start complaining. That my firewarriors with knives don't get special rules! Since my arguement is every bit as valid.

Not everything is a special rule... If it were.. then they wouldn't be special now would they?

Special rules make the game more interesting and fun. They add flavor to an army. Most people who play Chaos wanted something different from playing a normal SM list. Now that Chaos has been reduced to spikey loyalists, Chaos players are in an uproar. The feel of most Chaos armies is now no different than Loyalist SM armies. With the old rules, my IW felt like they were siege specialists with extra HS and a basilisk. Now they are an SM army that can't use dreads. I'm only still around because Apocalypse promises to fix everything.

Did your firewarriors ever have special rules for their knives? Is there anything in fluff that supports a certain sept that uses knives and excels at HTH? If so, then I agree. If not, you're just trying to stir the pot. Since you brought up Tau, I will point out where special rules would be good for them. A Farsight enclave would be the perfect place to add some rules and have a different, flavorfull Tau list. There is also a Kroot list for download. That's a varient Tau list with flavor (and special rules).

Not everything should have a special rule. However, specific legions should get special rules. Loyalists get their own codices (BA, DA, SW, etc). Half of the SM chapters are getting their own codices even though they are suppose to all be following the codex Astartes. Then CSM who never even saw Guilliman's work get one codex that is suppose to represent all of the variety of Chaos? Add to that that they took out anything representing specific rules for the legions, and I don't see how people don't understand why Chaos players are pissed.



I've given up trying to tell players hte new dex is good and internally balanced, and i've used the new list in game. I'm just sick of it, you all want to bitch and sell off your stuff

www.ebay.com

just click and go from there, pretty much I'm saying there is the door, use it

While you will probably never believe how close to that option I came, that shouldn't be the route Chaos players go. Most of us have spent lots of time and money on our armies. In addition to that, most of us still enjoy miniature war gaming. Eventually GW will come out with a new Chaos Codex. In the meantime, we have Apocalypse and the possibility of more Chaos codices or WD articles.

Someone posted that Gav Thorpe mentioned a possibility of legion specific codices in the future. I'm sure GW keeps up on the bigger forums. Maybe they will take notice of how crappy a lot of Chaos players feel the codex is. Maybe all the bitching could lead to a positive, and we might get seperate codices or WD articles for the legions.

Captain Micha
19-09-2007, 13:41
the old farsight rules. nuff said. it made firewarriors not so sucky at close combat vs -everyone- . I guess my point is, you don't -need- special rules to show that they are siege specialists... thats more reflected to me in what choices you make on the table as far as your army list than should be anything specific in the rules themselves. They prefer heavy weapons. ok. take heavy weapons. At no point do the current rules keep you from having your Iw fluffy. You don't have rules to rely on to -over- exaggerate them. Just like the Eldar with craftworlds. You can still -easily- take a craftworld inspired list with the rules presented in codex Eldar.

Thing is, I couldn't give two you know what's less about losing the rules for better hth firewarriors. It still looks pure awesome.



Also, I think that there is entirely too much sm love period *Be it chaos or smurf variety* I think the new chaos book should have been about the demons and the latd perhaps.

I found that no matter what you did to the marine. a space marine is a space marine. same with the chaos fence... it's still a loyalist spikey boy... but -better-? some how? The rules that they had only over exaggerated them, at no point did they seem any different than a space marine to me. Aside from the fact that they had more uber powered rules. So to me, in that regards that everyone defends the old dex... It was an abject miserable failure.

Pieman
19-09-2007, 13:54
I found that no matter what you did to the marine. a space marine is a space marine. same with the chaos fence... it's still a loyalist spikey boy... but -better-? some how? The rules that they had only over exaggerated them, at no point did they seem any different than a space marine to me. Aside from the fact that they had more uber powered rules. So to me, in that regards that everyone defends the old dex... It was an abject miserable failure.

Whilst I'm not going to get into a debate about the effectiveness of the 3rd (or 3.5) edition Chaos codex, I think this sums it up quite nicely for me. A Chaos Space Marine is too similar to a normal Marine. They were in the the old dex and in the new. It's why I've never been tempted to start a Chaos army. What's the point? It's an army of spikey marines that uses almost identical weaponry. You could almost say there's no point in having two seperate codexes for the armies (:eek:). Oh yes, Demons. We'll I'm still on the fence about demons (what ARE they doing with demons)?

Tom20
19-09-2007, 14:06
well my army is kaput i lost all veteran skils and evry demonic gift and now i have to up date all my models whit bolters and bolt pistols and close combat weapons and i lost my chosen two just great realy great im realy hapy a whole 4 years down the craper yay im hapy NOT :cries:

Captain Micha
19-09-2007, 14:09
but marines have bolters anyway?

as for the last two, maybe your's is a result of their demonic heritage that they have their bp and ccw. See? It's not so bad

Ddraiglais
19-09-2007, 14:13
Captain Micha,
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I would love to see the Tau get more lists. I would love to see craftworld lists, legion lists, kabals, hivefleets, etc, etc, etc. I believe that slight variences in the rules add more flavor to the game.



Powergaming Iron warriors were a plague, now i laugh at you all with your out-of date lists with 4 heavys and min/maxed squads to the hills, i cry for you naught.

Now stop being uncpsortmanlike and write a list that is competitive but not broken, thankyou.

Also it boring to only see IW armys, now i might see some colour.

Nice assuming there bud. While I did use basilisks and vindicators, it wasn't all the time. I usually used all four HS choices, but not all the time. I hardly ever took more than three obliterators (seems to be most people's biggest complaint about IW). My squads were usually around 8 each, and that was more because that's what the box came with than anything else. Every game I played I played for fun. I don't do tournaments, and I hate this assumption that everyone does.

No, I will not. Since I play for fun, I will not play 40K. I will start playing again in a couple of months with Apocalypse. The only things I'm taking from the new dex is the points costs.

I've seen plenty of different armies with the old codex. I do have to agree with you that we might see some really cool color schemes for various renegade chapters. That might be the one thing about the new dex that is good.

Captain Micha
19-09-2007, 14:18
thing is though, if they did that we'd all be bogged down and choked with sub list after sub list.

Also I know gw will never give xeno or anything not sm equal treatment that the smurfs have gotten and still get so then why should they give anyone special treatment at all?

If they can't bring themselves to make sub lists for everyone, then they shouldn't do it for anyone.

New Cult King
19-09-2007, 14:19
I started off with Black Legion 11 years ago, and repainted my army as IW about 7 years ago because I liked their "work ethic".

I think the new codex is just what I need to blow the dust off my army and add some elements I would not have been able to take under the old rules. Gimme an I! Gimme a W! Gimme a K! Gimme a B!

Heru Talon
19-09-2007, 14:25
I've just got the new CSM codex, and after reading it i'm wondering what happenned to the original traitor legions, and where did all these millions of renegades come from that never seemed to exist before?

The majority of Renegade groups are splinter groups from the original Legions (example - The Flawless Host, splinter group from the Emperor's Children Legion). The rest are either new Chaos Marines created with stolen Geneseed or actual renegade Astartes from Loyalist Chapters.

Now why do you lose your "oh so great" Legion rules, well lets consider this, the majority of the Chaos forces are made up of Chaos Lords with their own personal agendas, heck Typhus is more than likely to lay the smack down on another Death Guard Chaos Lord. Chaos no longer operates as complete Legions (example World Eaters), so why should it have complete Legion rules that just make everyone else scream cheese (Daemon bomb, IWs etc)?

Now allot of people go on, and on about losing their individuallity of their forces because they lose their restriction rules (like ancient enemies), and yet those people are just too dumb to realise if they want to stick to that theme they can still do it with their armies, they don't have to take Plague Marines in their Slaanesh force if they don't want to for example.

Overall I actually like the new Codex personally, it specifically pushes against the cohesiveness of the Loyalists (which Legion rules, and ancient enemies actually enforced in Chaos forces originally), and now pushes towards the random jibber jab that is Chaos as it should be.

(500th post interesting).

gitburna
19-09-2007, 14:30
well my army is kaput i lost all veteran skils and evry demonic gift and now i have to up date all my models whit bolters and bolt pistols and close combat weapons and i lost my chosen two just great realy great im realy hapy a whole 4 years down the craper yay im hapy NOT :cries:

Just mix your marines up, you dont have to have them all with bolters on slings, scabbarded swords, boltpistols in holsters etc. Ive been building my marines for donkeys years now and have always given them a mix, it just "looked cool" at the time but now its at long last returned to the rules :)

Its just like how Dark angels dont need to model all their marines with frag grenades,krak grenades and a bolt pistol as well...They just *have* them.

And by the way, expect veteran skills to disappear from most other codexes in future as well, given only to a few select units for the sake of character.

Vaktathi
19-09-2007, 14:40
Powergaming Iron warriors were a plague, now i laugh at you all with your out-of date lists with 4 heavys and min/maxed squads to the hills, i cry for you naught.

Now stop being uncpsortmanlike and write a list that is competitive but not broken, thankyou.

Also it boring to only see IW armys, now i might see some colour.

yes, because everyone played IW like that...:rolleyes:
If you are going to troll, do it on another board. If you want to actually contribute something, please do, if not, dont bother posting.

MrBigMr
19-09-2007, 14:44
I would so want to hear the sound that comes out of SM players when GW turns the SM codex and all the chapter codexes into one vanilla codex.

What are you crying Raven/Deathwing players, you still get bikes and terminators. Why so sad Blood Angels, you still get assault marines. What's the problem Black Templars, you can still make Scouts 'count as' Neophytes. What's that Space Wolves, no Blood Claws, but you still have your 'Grey Hunters' and aren't Long Fangs just different color devastators? Oh, I'm sorry Iron Hands, but now your terminator sergeants just have to form their own sad little squad.

Ddraiglais
19-09-2007, 14:56
thing is though, if they did that we'd all be bogged down and choked with sub list after sub list.

Also I know gw will never give xeno or anything not sm equal treatment that the smurfs have gotten and still get so then why should they give anyone special treatment at all?

If they can't bring themselves to make sub lists for everyone, then they shouldn't do it for anyone.

So people can't be expected to know the rules for their army and where to find it in a book? I could see limiting tournaments to single lists for simplicity, but why can't they have fun lists and include so much more?

This is true. I never saw it though. Most of their sales are Loylist SM, but most people outgrow them. In addition to that, is there a ton of sales for SM because people like them or because they have so much support?

I agree 100%. Now they have to recall the DA list, BA and BT codices, and tell the Space Pups that they have to use the regular SM list.



The majority of Renegade groups are splinter groups from the original Legions (example - The Flawless Host, splinter group from the Emperor's Children Legion). The rest are either new Chaos Marines created with stolen Geneseed or actual renegade Astartes from Loyalist Chapters.

Now why do you lose your "oh so great" Legion rules, well lets consider this, the majority of the Chaos forces are made up of Chaos Lords with their own personal agendas, heck Typhus is more than likely to lay the smack down on another Death Guard Chaos Lord. Chaos no longer operates as complete Legions (example World Eaters), so why should it have complete Legion rules that just make everyone else scream cheese (Daemon bomb, IWs etc)?

Now allot of people go on, and on about losing their individuallity of their forces because they lose their restriction rules (like ancient enemies), and yet those people are just too dumb to realise if they want to stick to that theme they can still do it with their armies, they don't have to take Plague Marines in their Slaanesh force if they don't want to for example.

Overall I actually like the new Codex personally, it specifically pushes against the cohesiveness of the Loyalists (which Legion rules, and ancient enemies actually enforced in Chaos forces originally), and now pushes towards the random jibber jab that is Chaos as it should be.

(500th post interesting).

Most of what I've read suggests that a lot of the legions are still mostly together. While there may be splinter groups, I still see the core of IW, BL, AL, NL, WB, etc as still being together. AL might not be in the same place, but I see them taking orders from a central place.

The special characters have split from their legions. I also agree that most of the time the legions don't operate as entire legions. Most SM chapters (much smaller numbers too) don't usually operate as an entire chapter. What's your point? The IW still operate in grand companies. They still remain loyal to Medrengard. If Perturabo decided something needed done, the entire legion would be there to do it for him. Even if every legion was operating as warbands, they should still get their special rules. SM chapters still use the rules for their parent legion.

I won't use daemons (if I do, they will be "mutants"). However, I still don't like losing everything I have lost.

I see most of the legions still existing mostly as legions. The new rules are great for splinter groups and renegade chapters, but that's not the Chaos I choose to play. There is nothing anywhere to support that the IW have broken up. IW should not be random. Fluff says that they are still disciplined. They aren't really Chaos as much as they are traitors. They do not welcome mutations like other legions. They didn't even support the 12th Black Crusade.



yes, because everyone played IW like that...:rolleyes:
If you are going to troll, do it on another board. If you want to actually contribute something, please do, if not, dont bother posting.

Thank you Vaktathi.



I would so want to hear the sound that comes out of SM players when GW turns the SM codex and all the chapter codexes into one vanilla codex.

What are you crying Raven/Deathwing players, you still get bikes and terminators. Why so sad Blood Angels, you still get assault marines. What's the problem Black Templars, you can still make Scouts 'count as' Neophytes. What's that Space Wolves, no Blood Claws, but you still have your 'Grey Hunters' and aren't Long Fangs just different color devastators? Oh, I'm sorry Iron Hands, but now your terminator sergeants just have to form their own sad little squad.

That's the thing. Most people are overjoyed to see Chaos get nerfed. What they don't realise is that their codices are coming up. I can't say I will be happy when it happens. I will be torn. I will laugh at all the people who laughed when Chaos got nerfed; but on the other hand, I will lament the fact that 40K is losing all of it's flavor. I would rather every army have multiple lists. I'm also not convinced that GW would screw it's flagship army like that.

Captain Micha
19-09-2007, 15:04
No but it would get abit more than irritating for those of us that like knowing what rules their opponents have. Not remember on the fly for ex (just humor me and say saimhain and each craftworld has it's OWN codex) ten diff codexs. for one race.

and that would be rather humorous of them to recall the armies. The thing is though, if gw included the 'special' units in one codex for the sms and said "ok the old codeci are invalid.. use this now" then it would make sense for them to do so.

It would not be all that hard to do, as they have done it with eldar already and Chaos as well.

See? They could do it.

And there's still variety in there for everyone. But I'm so not going into this -again- we've seen these threads twice before now (since I've been here) and my answer is going to remain the same. You don't need uber amounts of special rules for everything, especially when you still have the specialist units that made 'typified' the legion in question.

It's not the same as bt losing neophytes cause they have scouts. not even close. your thousand sons still have thousand sons right? ergo they are still Ts... you still have oblits... you still have plague marines...

It's simply up to -you- now to theme out your army however -you- want it. I think thats a far improvement over being -forced- into one little niche list

Tom20
19-09-2007, 15:42
Q why did the dang near evry chaos unit lose the veteran skills and the normal space marines get them for terminators and veteran squads?

philbrad2
19-09-2007, 16:15
Q why did the dang near evry chaos unit lose the veteran skills and the normal space marines get them for terminators and veteran squads?

Because GW are looking to trim the options available to players in their army lists and get rid of the multitude of skills/doctrines etc... that were given to forces in the Chambers/Haines era.

Expect the rumoured redux of Codex:SM to be similarly neutered and I expect the IG will follow suit when they get revised. The days of multiples Legion/Chapter/Craftworld/Klan lists are gone guys. To use a variation on a phrase "one list to rule them all!"

I've had a good read through the new codex, its ok and I will have to do some re jigging of my IW force. Its by no means the gloom and doom the rumours about it earlier in the year had us expect, but ... its OK. I simply can't muster any superlatives about the book. Fluff is cool but its on the whole OK I cannot say anything with more enthusiasm than that.

PhilB
:chrome:

Damien 1427
19-09-2007, 16:21
Q why did the dang near evry chaos unit lose the veteran skills and the normal space marines get them for terminators and veteran squads?

Because they're all old and senile. Loyalists aren't. :p

And yeah, I'd love sublist after sublist. It'd give the tournie crowd fits. I mean, if Privateer "BALANCEBALANCEBALANCE" Press can create sublists for Warmachine, surely GW can for 40k?

And if IG Doctrines are dropped, I can imagine there will be an outcry. Because it will show the game isn't being streamlined, or tidied up, it'll be conclusive proof the current mob want to dumb it down. Also, people in bad Commissar and Catachan costumes will murder them in their sleep.

MrBigMr
19-09-2007, 16:35
And if IG Doctrines are dropped, I can imagine there will be an outcry.
I might be a bit upset. If doctrines go, IG has little left apart from massive swarm army. I got IG as my first army because they had the doctrines and gave me the ability to do all sorts of fun things. I did take possible future alterations into consideration with my army, so as long as I can have carapace and drop troops or some other form that allows me to use valkyries, I'll live.

As for SM, as long as I can have terminator armored sergeants, my chapter will survive. If I can't, they'll all have artificer armors. Failing that I'll revert to my explosives training from the army.


Also, people in bad Catachan costumes will murder them in their sleep.
Oh, thank you.
*sob*
Do you know how long I worked on that outfit?
*weep*
Bastard...
*runs away crying*

The_Warsmith
19-09-2007, 16:39
if chaos no longer have daemon armour or terminator armoured seargents then SM won't either

philbrad2
19-09-2007, 16:39
Remeber IG doctorines have only been around for just coming up for 4 years. There's been a long time IG players have gone on without them.

PhilB
:chrome:

MrBigMr
19-09-2007, 16:47
if chaos no longer have daemon armour or terminator armoured seargents then SM won't either
But... But Iron Hands fluff sez they gets terminator sarges...


Remeber IG doctorines have only been around for just coming up for 4 years. There's been a long time IG players have gone on without them.
People lived without shoes for a long time, so should I just suck it up if they stop making them? Hell, people lived without the internet for a good time, so lets just pull the plug and we can all be happy. I think the point should be to move forwards, not back, which seems to be what GW is doing. Some bitter old geezer who loved RT got in charge at GW and now is taking his revenge on all of us by making all the codexes simple after years of all sorts of fancy crap. Or something like that.

paddyalexander
19-09-2007, 16:49
The main problem facing IW & EC players in relation to their Bassilisks & sonic weapons is simply the attitude of their opponents. If I show up at my local (our group plays above a pub) & someone shows up and asks if its ok to use their bassilisk or sonic weapons on vehicles/terminators in a game against me I'd say no problem.

legionaires
19-09-2007, 16:53
Im with Tom20. The fact that vanilla SM still have have vet skills and the random possessed mutations is what gets my goat. I have no problem losing the Bassie, I only used it and dreads as I personally have always hated the defiler and I used the basilisk as a replacement. Oh and it was a rare day that I ever used more than a single Oblit. I still havent figured out how my army lost 300 pts. Oh and I miss the Havoc Launcher on my PC/ML dread, 8 templates was good times. :D

DarkstarSabre
19-09-2007, 16:59
Sustained attack or whatever the exarch power was called

You mean that abomination that easily allowed an Exarch with a power weapon to rack up an obscene amount of hits that pretty much compensated for the 'only S3' arguement off the bat? Glad that's gone, people were using a fast moving, firepower based AT as an exarch deployment system rather than anything else.


And also the individual craftworld rules such as the ulthwe seer council, or the alaitoc ranger force or the wild riders of saim hann, pretty much everything that made each eldar force different no longer apply, now all you'll see is the pretty much the same force but painted in a different color (which whilst it may have happened before it wasn't because there wasn't the choice to vary your army) and I suspect the same will happen with chaos.

So you now have to actually theme your army through unit choices and playstyle rather than half a dozen jazzy special rules for free? That's bad how? Seriously, Ulthwe, Alaitoc and Saim Hann were all pretty broken armies for what they were used for. Free BS? Free disruption rolls? Single vehicle units everywhere brimming with starcannon?

They're actually balancing the codexes. If you were truly a craftworld player for the damn background rather than half a dozen WIN gimmicks you should have no problem. They made it so every army is still legal and can be made from the list. In fact, that's a lot of added flexibilty.


And as for the DA codex, well let me see, off the top of my head I can come up with two things taken out - artificier armour, and asmodai the chaplain, nuff said really.

Sadly Asmodai is no more. Yes, unfortunate. Special characters disappear over time. In return new ones are brought in or old ones brought back. Now he is an interrogator chaplain. Use the model as such. And artificer armour? Huge problem with WYSIWYG. How many people put it on models with obscenely ornate armour? Hell, why is the fact that Guy X's armour is old/decorated making it better than Guy Y? Consider it for more modelling possibilities (as technically every marine's armour is a relic and treasured).

Seriously, you don't need gimmick rules for modelling do you?

Sovereign
19-09-2007, 17:24
But these were not in Codex:Eldar [WH40K 3rd Edition or WH40K 2nd Edition] so they have not been "taken out" of the codex ;)
You need to also count Codex: Craftworld as part of Codex: Eldar. Or are you suggesting that Codex: Craftworld remains in force, and that only the underlying Eldar Codex changed? I'd be OK with that...

And it's not like the Eldar FOC was "broken" ;)

Of course, the FOC goes out the window, again...

(Wow, I sound just like a LatD player. Tell you what guys, you lobby for Codex: Craftworld, and I'll lobby for LatD :angel:)


All of which was added by an additional supplement codex. It wasn't in the main Eldar 'dex.
If you compare the 3rd edition 'dex with the 4th, the 4th is FAR superior in terms of design, background and army list.

Pathfinders are still in the list (big deal they changed slightly...). Also they weren't in the original Eldar 3rd edition 'dex were they?

You can still take Dire Avengers as troops. Maybe taking other aspects as troops was a bit unbalanced?

Don't even get me started on taking Wraithlords as troops.... that was a DUMB idea that needed to go IMHO

Who needs BS 4 Guardians when Dire Avengers are exactly that. They're troops too.

At least you can take Jetbikes as troops. Maybe the elite versions have gone, but wait... Shining Spears you say?
The OP asked what was taken out, and I gave a list of the units (i.e. SPESHUL ROOLZ) that were removed. The OP didn't limit the list to "models only".

Anyhow, I don't think Craftworlds would be unbalancing, now that the base units have been rebalanced. For example, I don't see anything unbalancing about taking non-Avenger Aspects as Troops, particularly Scorpions. WL as Troops isn't a big deal because he was pretty heavily nerfed and the Craftworld Alaitoc list is very restrictive. 2 squads of BS4 Guardian AGPs are OK because the Heavy Weapons changed so that Starcannon aren't so abusive.

Kahadras
19-09-2007, 17:59
Personaly I can't see why there's so much complaint about the new codex. OK a lot of the 'uber' options were removed but you can still field an Iron Warriors army if you want to. I can't understand when people lament the loss of the 4 HS choices. Unless you used the 4 HS slots all the time then the loss of one shouldn't be that much of a problem.

The only minor annoyance should come from the loss of the Basilisk IMHO but at the end of the day I never really felt that it fitted that well into an IW army anyway.

At the end of the day complaining will not bring back the old codex in all of it's tons-of-obliterators-4-pie-plates-first-turn-charge-lord glory. If the Space Wolf codex was scrapped tomorrow and I had to make do with the regualar Marine codex then I'd just shrug my shoulders and get on with adapting my army.

Kahadras

Sovereign
19-09-2007, 18:29
If they can't bring themselves to make sub lists for everyone, then they shouldn't do it for anyone.
Because not everybody generates lots of model sales. If everybody contributed equally to GW sales & profits, then they would be supported equally.

But that isn't the case. 40k has been a game about selling SM for many years now. So SM will always get the sublists because SM are profitable.

MutantMaggot
19-09-2007, 18:31
Wise and true words, Kahadras. Wise and true.

Damien 1427
19-09-2007, 18:32
But that isn't the case. 40k has been a game about selling SM for many years now. So SM will always get the sublists because SM are profitable.

SM are profitable because SM are supported above and beyond everyone else. So they are profitable. So they are supported. So they ar- You see where I'm going with this.

If Orks got the same support, we'd be bitching about kids with greenskins and the Beakie-Boyz would be lamenting how thye haven't had a new codex in nearly ten years.

Sovereign
19-09-2007, 18:41
I would so want to hear the sound that comes out of SM players when GW turns the SM codex and all the chapter codexes into one vanilla codex.
If SM generated the smaller sales volume that CSM did, then this probably would happen. But it doesn't. SM are far and away the 900-pound gorilla of GW sales and profits, and GW will do anything to ensure that revenue stream.

CSM, OTOH, are a 2-bit player by comparision. CSM sell well enough that they get an 3.5 and an earlier update than Orks or DE (haven't gotten Squat). But CSM sell much worse than SM, so this is the result.

Sovereign
19-09-2007, 18:50
And if IG Doctrines are dropped, I can imagine there will be an outcry. Because it will show the game isn't being streamlined, or tidied up, it'll be conclusive proof the current mob want to dumb it down.
When IG Doctrines are dropped (when, not if), there won't be any outcry. The IG list will have more flexible options to cover the significant, balanced Doctrines. Nobody else will have Traits / Craftworlds / Legions / Kults, so it will be obvious that the IG must fall in line to match.

"Dumbing it down" is better than pandering to every 10-year-old's desire for a shiny SPESHUL ROOL to make his army SPESHUL.

A lot of us were happy with the 40k3 Rulebook lists (remember those?) and thought they were better balanced than the Codices.

Ddraiglais
19-09-2007, 18:51
At the end of the day complaining will not bring back the old codex in all of it's tons-of-obliterators-4-pie-plates-first-turn-charge-lord glory. If the Space Wolf codex was scrapped tomorrow and I had to make do with the regualar Marine codex then I'd just shrug my shoulders and get on with adapting my army.

Kahadras

It might not bring back the old codex, but we might get a WD article or something to help ease the pain.



SM are profitable because SM are supported above and beyond everyone else. So they are profitable. So they are supported. So they ar- You see where I'm going with this.

If Orks got the same support, we'd be bitching about kids with greenskins and the Beakie-Boyz would be lamenting how thye haven't had a new codex in nearly ten years.

That's the question I keep on asking. If CSM, Orks, Eldar, whomever got the same amount of support, would they sell as well? We'll never know because SM armies are GW's little pet.


If SM generated the smaller sales volume that CSM did, then this probably would happen. But it doesn't. SM are far and away the 900-pound gorilla of GW sales and profits, and GW will do anything to ensure that revenue stream.

CSM, OTOH, are a 2-bit player by comparision. CSM sell well enough that they get an 3.5 and an earlier update than Orks or DE (haven't gotten Squat). But CSM sell much worse than SM, so this is the result.

See my earlier question. Just think if there were codices for Chaos Undivided, Renegades, and Cults. Then see how well Orks would do if they had Codex Feral Orks and Speed Freaks. I would think that more material would generate more sales for almost any army.

So what you're saying is that if I hadn't bought so much Chaos stuff, they wouldn't have gotten nerfed in the newest codex? Oh, and I love your choice of words here (Squat) LOL.

Deathjester
19-09-2007, 18:54
I tell you if i lost the space wolf codex i'd go mental!

That said ok so i'm annoyed that i can't use my Iron Warriors anymore, however the most annoying thing is that my 1500point Khrone army is now worth just over 1000pts!!!!!!

I need to buy 500points more stuff (Daemons have gone down in cost, as has the greater daemon), and my daemons are RUBBISH!

Polonius
19-09-2007, 18:56
One note about IG doctirnes: while the new codex has been out four years, and the old one didn't have doctrines, there were a bout a half a dozen sublists generated for IG in the armageddon campaign (steel legion, elysians, cityfight, DKOK, Ork hunters, Salvar Chem dogs), which while not as versatile as the current doctrines, allowed for more dramatically different builds.

Finally, the 2nd edition codex allowed squads to buy veteran skills, which are suspiciously similar to doctrines. The point is, IG doctrines have a rich history.

The legion rules for chaos are far different. They appeared more or less out of nowhere in the 3.5 codex. Ditto the craftworld lists in Codex: Craftworld Eldar. That is not to say they should be removed, but the availability of sublists for chaos/eldar is less grounded in precedent.

Splagbot
19-09-2007, 19:01
At the end of the day complaining will not bring back the old codex in all of it's tons-of-obliterators-4-pie-plates-first-turn-charge-lord glory.

It certainly won't, but if they complain long enough they'll get another new Codex in a few years, IMHO there was not enough wrong with the old Codex to warrant a new on and before people start with the whole Thousand Sons suck and Iron Warriors where overpowered line of argument, I have played with and against both and they where both usable and beatable.

The problem with any new Codex is that there will always be someone who isn't happy with it, now I haven't got or seen a copy but it can't be all that bad surely.

I say spare a thought for the poor Orks, since third edition 40K, Chaos have had 2 codices (3 if you count Codex Eye of Terror), Orks have had only one, so suck it up guys and make do.

Kahadras
19-09-2007, 19:16
It certainly won't, but if they complain long enough they'll get another new Codex in a few years, IMHO there was not enough wrong with the old Codex to warrant a new on and before people start with the whole Thousand Sons suck and Iron Warriors where overpowered line of argument, I have played with and against both and they where both usable and beatable

OK other armies are badly in need of an update (Orks and Dark Eldar spring to mind) but GW seem to want to 'fix' the mainstream armies first (SM, Eldar and Chaos). At the end of the day the old codex was a bit flawed though no matter how much people say that IW were OK and you could see a big 'fix' comming a mile away. Personaly I was suprised that Tau and Tyranids were 'fixed' before the developers got round to Chaos.

Kahadras

Ddraiglais
19-09-2007, 19:22
It certainly won't, but if they complain long enough they'll get another new Codex in a few years, IMHO there was not enough wrong with the old Codex to warrant a new on and before people start with the whole Thousand Sons suck and Iron Warriors where overpowered line of argument, I have played with and against both and they where both usable and beatable.

The problem with any new Codex is that there will always be someone who isn't happy with it, now I haven't got or seen a copy but it can't be all that bad surely.

I say spare a thought for the poor Orks, since third edition 40K, Chaos have had 2 codices (3 if you count Codex Eye of Terror), Orks have had only one, so suck it up guys and make do.


Agreed, both are usable and both are beatable.

If you don't mind losing your basilisk, 4th HS option, vet abilities, daemonic gifts, servo arm, possessed, dreads, and oblits. Did I miss anything? On top of that, any Chaos player can play the same exact list as you so having a themed army is kinda out. You could use daemons that aren't worth their points. You also can take marked troops now as an IW. I guess not that bad depends on who is looking at the list.

If you play another list, just ask. The IW aren't the only ones that got boned in this deal. I just used them because the thread happens to be about them.

Vaktathi
19-09-2007, 19:26
OK other armies are badly in need of an update (Orks and Dark Eldar spring to mind) but GW seem to want to 'fix' the mainstream armies first (SM, Eldar and Chaos). At the end of the day the old codex was a bit flawed though no matter how much people say that IW were OK and you could see a big 'fix' comming a mile away. Personaly I was suprised that Tau and Tyranids were 'fixed' before the developers got round to Chaos.

Kahadras

well, they arent exactly going to re-write a codex after only a couple years, if they had redone Chaos when they redid Tau the Chaos dex would have only been 2 years old. I was surprised Chaos got redone so soon. 3 codex's in 8 years (1999,2003,2007) is alot, Orks and DE got one in the same space of time.

BrainFireBob
19-09-2007, 19:28
That's the question I keep on asking. If CSM, Orks, Eldar, whomever got the same amount of support, would they sell as well? We'll never know because SM armies are GW's little pet.

That's a woeful underestimation of how the problem began. SMs sold, so they received more support, seems to be how the problem started.

CSMs might become as popular, maybe Eldar. Those are, I think, it- not because other armies are bad, but because they're too expensive an investment for the average new player. No matter how you market, only the low-model count armies have that in their favor.

Moreover, SMs are the universal "badass" characters in aesthetic and fluff- Robocop, Seagall, etc. They're what someone with no knowledge of 40K can immediately identify, and more importantly identify with.

So no, I'd have to say claiming it's solely the support is a strawman. Mind, the severity to which SMs are favored may be due partially to support, but they will always be the majority army favored by someone coming in for the first time. Low model count=cheap, well-known archetyped aesthetic= appealing.

Kahadras
19-09-2007, 19:41
well, they arent exactly going to re-write a codex after only a couple years, if they had redone Chaos when they redid Tau the Chaos dex would have only been 2 years old. I was surprised Chaos got redone so soon. 3 codex's in 8 years (1999,2003,2007) is alot, Orks and DE got one in the same space of time.

Maybe it says something about which armies GW aren't particularly happy with? At the end of the day Orks and DE are always going to suffer due to the fact that the vast majority of people play MEq (either the loyalist or chaotic varient). I could see a Chaos redo on the horizon due to the imbalance between what was good (Demon bomb, IW 4 HS) and what wasn't (Death Guard and Thousand Sons).

The 2003 ed always reminded me of the 3rd ed Eldar codex to a certain extent. I've not had much chance to go though the new Chaos dex in detail yet (read through it a couple of times) it does seem more balanced than the previous one.

Kahadras

Damien 1427
19-09-2007, 19:55
So no, I'd have to say claiming it's solely the support is a strawman. Mind, the severity to which SMs are favored may be due partially to support, but they will always be the majority army favored by someone coming in for the first time. Low model count=cheap, well-known archetyped aesthetic= appealing.

The fact the Redshirts are trained to shill them above all else, as well doesn't help.

The whole "starter" thing is geared towards Beakies, although the current starter box is a bit more balanced than third edition starter (That was vomit-enducingly bad).

It's self-perpetuating idiocy.

Raven1
19-09-2007, 20:04
Just as the Loyalist Legions broke into smaller Chapters, the Traitor Legions fractured into warbands. And just as there are new Loyalists being created, there are new Traitors from the ranks of fallen Loyalists.

That's your choice, but Chaos Marines *should* be spikey Marines.

Everybody has noticed the loss of Basilisks, and most everybody interested in balance applauds the change. CSM never should have had it in the first place. Same with the move to a normal FOC - that's good, too.

Since, this about IW I'll point out that the IW have not really broken up into small individual warbands. Peturabo, their primarch, is seen by the IW as a demi-god who is their savior. They believe it was him who protected them and kept them from being sacrificed by the Emperor when the expansion of the empire was happening. they are not fractured. Really neither are legions like the black legion, Word Bearers, or the Alpha Legion. One of the fluff characteristics fo the Legions was that unlike the newer chapters, the traitor Legions never broke apart. Sure, there are warbands that are smaller or larger, but they would still hold alliegence to the large legion.

Vaktathi
19-09-2007, 20:21
Since, this about IW I'll point out that the IW have not really broken up into small individual warbands. Peturabo, their primarch, is seen by the IW as a demi-god who is their savior. They believe it was him who protected them and kept them from being sacrificed by the Emperor when the expansion of the empire was happening. they are not fractured. Really neither are legions like the black legion, Word Bearers, or the Alpha Legion. One of the fluff characteristics fo the Legions was that unlike the newer chapters, the traitor Legions never broke apart. Sure, there are warbands that are smaller or larger, but they would still hold alliegence to the large legion.

well..not entirely. The EC and WE generally operate in independent warbands, the Iron Warriors have been known to fight amongst themselves (Dead Sky Black Sun) although as a general rule are still unified under Peturabo, the Alpha Legion basically works without any overall leader in independent small infiltration/assault groups. The Night Lords nominally fight together but often do their own thing. The Thousand Sons are fractured along the split of Ahriman's banished Cabal and the main legion.

Basically some legions are split into small roving independent warbands (WE, EC), others are a sort of loose confederation (NL,Tsons), others are still fairly tight with exceptions (IW, WB).

kazkal
19-09-2007, 21:41
I hate the new Legion-neutral rules. :( I think it takes character away from the Traitor Legions. The SM get chapters, why can't we get our legions?!



Who says you guys won't? mybe they'll release them via White Dwarf or give them their own books like BT & DA etc.

Ddraiglais
19-09-2007, 22:33
That's a woeful underestimation of how the problem began. SMs sold, so they received more support, seems to be how the problem started.

CSMs might become as popular, maybe Eldar. Those are, I think, it- not because other armies are bad, but because they're too expensive an investment for the average new player. No matter how you market, only the low-model count armies have that in their favor.

Moreover, SMs are the universal "badass" characters in aesthetic and fluff- Robocop, Seagall, etc. They're what someone with no knowledge of 40K can immediately identify, and more importantly identify with.

So no, I'd have to say claiming it's solely the support is a strawman. Mind, the severity to which SMs are favored may be due partially to support, but they will always be the majority army favored by someone coming in for the first time. Low model count=cheap, well-known archetyped aesthetic= appealing.

As far back as I can remember, SM have been favored by GW. Even when they started doing boxed sets SM were always included with the basic rules. When they got around to doing Epic, what did they call it? The first (not counting titanicus) Epic rules were called Epic Space Marine.

I agree that other armies won't ever reach that level of popularity because of cost. IG infantry can be outrageous. As far as identifying with an army, I would say IG are probably the most easily identified with. CSM probably can't be identified with so much, but they are easily identifiable.

I don't know if we could call it a strawman argument. For starters, I asked the question of which came first. In addition, I have already said that I've seen the Loyalists supported for as long as I can remember. I haven't been around since the very beginning, but I have been around for quite a while. Even the "older" stuff (older than when I started) was SM oriented.

While I can see your argument against high cost armies (IG, Orks), I am still wondering about armies that cost about the same (Chaos, Eldar). I am still not convinced that Chaos wouldn't do close to as well as SM if they had legion codices, or Eldar if they had craftworld codices. This would assume that these armies would also have favorable rules and attention in WD, Black Gobbo, etc.

Rioghan Murchadha
20-09-2007, 04:47
The Thousand Sons are fractured along the split of Ahriman's banished Cabal and the main legion.



Which consists of Ahriman, and his few good buddy sorcerers, doomed to search the galaxy over for forbidden knowledge. Magnus still commands the entire remainder of the legion. It's hardly what I would call 'fractured'. Even according to the most recent fluff (the new codex), I would lump 1ksons in with the 'got shafted with the warband theme' thing. (Unless you're fielding Ahriman's cabal and hiring out to other Warbands in exchange for forbidden tomes or artifacts or whatnot.)

Vaktathi
20-09-2007, 05:31
Which consists of Ahriman, and his few good buddy sorcerers, doomed to search the galaxy over for forbidden knowledge. Magnus still commands the entire remainder of the legion. It's hardly what I would call 'fractured'. Even according to the most recent fluff (the new codex), I would lump 1ksons in with the 'got shafted with the warband theme' thing. (Unless you're fielding Ahriman's cabal and hiring out to other Warbands in exchange for forbidden tomes or artifacts or whatnot.)

I would consider the Chief Librarian and a good number of the rest of the command staff a "split" in the legion. I did not mean "fracture" in the sense of being knocked down to the level of "warband" or anything, but enough so that the entire legion is no longer a single unified fighting entity.

Rioghan Murchadha
20-09-2007, 05:42
I would consider the Chief Librarian and a good number of the rest of the command staff a "split" in the legion. I did not mean "fracture" in the sense of being knocked down to the level of "warband" or anything, but enough so that the entire legion is no longer a single unified fighting entity.

It wasn't the rest of the command staff.. All the non psyker staffers just became rubrics.. ;)

Besides.. I'll wager it was probably him and 8 of his buddies. Remember, back then, numbers were important.

They're still significantly larger than a chapter, or warband either way you look at it, and they can't be depleting their strength that badly, as other than Ahriman, they all seem to sit on their duffs on the Planet of Sorcerers contemplating the mysteries of existance.

Which raises another interesting question. If Ahriman still retains his title of 'chief librarian', why do the rest of the TS librarium call themselves 'sorcerers' instead?

Vaktathi
20-09-2007, 05:52
It wasn't the rest of the command staff.. All the non psyker staffers just became rubrics.. ;) werent most of the non-rubrics sergeants and captains and the like though?


Besides.. I'll wager it was probably him and 8 of his buddies. Remember, back then, numbers were important. probably, but IIRC they took a good number or rubric marines with them.


They're still significantly larger than a chapter, or warband either way you look at it, and they can't be depleting their strength that badly, as other than Ahriman, they all seem to sit on their duffs on the Planet of Sorcerers contemplating the mysteries of existance. Oh no doubt, they are still far larger than a Chapter.


Which raises another interesting question. If Ahriman still retains his title of 'chief librarian', why do the rest of the TS librarium call themselves 'sorcerers' instead? hrmm...dunno, cool factor maybe?:p

Raven1
20-09-2007, 07:17
I think I got the idea from this thread, but I have the idea of basically counts-as Plague Marines, but they will be heavily converted IW but with all sorts of bionics kind of a the Flesh is Weak thing. Just for fun and since I can take Marks, but of course, being a IW player I could never show openly that I took a mark other then Khorne.

Thinking about it the IW in Storm of Iron had the mark of Khorne so why can't I

silashand
20-09-2007, 07:29
Special rules make the game more interesting and fun. They add flavor to an army. Most people who play Chaos wanted something different from playing a normal SM list. Now that Chaos has been reduced to spikey loyalists, Chaos players are in an uproar. The feel of most Chaos armies is now no different than Loyalist SM armies.

This sums up my opinion of the new codex quite succinctly. For those who like to tell people that special rules don't make an army unique, I say they do, and in a better way than any old paint job which is what they would have you believe. Sorry, it is how the army *plays* that makes it unique. Paint is just paint.

Cheers, Gary

MrBigMr
20-09-2007, 12:15
Sorry, it is how the army *plays* that makes it unique. Paint is just paint.
Right. Even if you paint a lada bright red with Ferrari symbols, it's still a lada.

Ddraiglais
20-09-2007, 12:21
I think I got the idea from this thread, but I have the idea of basically counts-as Plague Marines, but they will be heavily converted IW but with all sorts of bionics kind of a the Flesh is Weak thing. Just for fun and since I can take Marks, but of course, being a IW player I could never show openly that I took a mark other then Khorne.

Thinking about it the IW in Storm of Iron had the mark of Khorne so why can't I

I think I suggested it. I am not sure the IW have the same "flesh is weak" thing that the IH have. I think the IW replace lost limbs and such from battles as they need it. They also cut out mutations and replace them with bionics. Either way, that's a way to get something out of the new dex.

Here's another one for you. You could maybe have a squad that has a few members who are in a transitional stage of the obliterator virus. Use noise marine rules, but model up different weapons to use instead of the sonic weapons.

Staying with the obliterator virus theme, you could use rules for rubrics as well.

Instead of daemons, use the rules and call them mutants (of course the rules for generic daemons aren't that great. You might want to scrap this idea.)

james4191
20-09-2007, 17:17
Thinking about it the IW in Storm of Iron had the mark of Khorne so why can't I

How did IW end up with mark of Khorne, can you explain that please?

The Iron warriors plague marine bionics thing is quite a good idea, but quite expensive. How does it compare with points values in the old dex.

Ddraiglais
20-09-2007, 17:49
How did IW end up with mark of Khorne, can you explain that please?


IW use to have bezerkers in the 3.0 codex. They have always flirted with Khorne. In the book Storm of Iron The second company's commander comes close to fully going over to Khorne. Many of his men already had. In addition to that, his armor was possessed by a Khornate daemon or was a daemon. I can't remember which. It is really cool when the daemonic armor shows it's full power though.

One of the things (may be the only thing) about the new dex is that Khorne can be represented like he should be. His followers can show martial skills without being raving lunatics. I can remember a time when Khorne armies (at least in Epic) where the shootiest Chaos armies out there.

Anyway, Khorne can get his skulls whether you use a chainaxe or a plasma annihilator. The IW have a history of flirting with Khorne. There is fluff from novels to support it. I like it.

As far as bionic marines go, just take plague marines. Instead of making them all puss filled and stuff, model them with bionics. Say they get the FNP from being half machine. These guys could be your "vets" that have lived through many battles and been wounded many times. It makes sense to me.

Raven1
20-09-2007, 17:57
Thats my idea anyway, but I think I will scratch build the bionics with green stuff and plasti card. I was looking at the the Iron Hands legs and arms, but at $3 a pop it is not worth it.

Man, so many projects, so little time and money.

My other idea is scratch built demons that are really demon possessed robots. My IW army in yesteryear(:wtf:) used demons as slaves, in the dreadnaughts and predators. So, i think it would be a fine addition to my fluff idea. Even though the demons aren't that good, I can see them as a flesh/warp wall. Basically, when a CC squad comes in close I summon the demons and sick them on the CC squad. Like the hounds from the simpsons that Mr. Burns has, hellish mutated warp hounds.

Also, Khorne is a martial god, a not so much go crzy and kill stuff god. In the epic stuff I read that if a devotee to Khorne killed someone in cold blood khorne would send a demon and have him killed. Cuz, Khorne is into war and killing, but honorable killing....:wtf:

IW geneseed has a defect in that IW are prone to mutated and defective limbs. So, that is reason enough for blatant use of bionics and have you looked at the IW models the warsmith and lascannon guys have bionics. IT's a standard thing, maybe not as far as the IH, but it is still there.




Here's another one for you. You could maybe have a squad that has a few members who are in a transitional stage of the obliterator virus. Use noise marine rules, but model up different weapons to use instead of the sonic weapons.

Staying with the obliterator virus theme, you could use rules for rubrics as well. Genius, well man, I need more money, stupid money why can't you grow on trees

Ddraiglais
20-09-2007, 18:14
It looks like we have similar ideas on a new direction for IW. I won't be scratchbuilding because I do not possess those skills.

I agree about Khorne. That was part of the hatred between him and Slaanesh. Khorne wanted skulls from deserving enemies. His followers want to best the most powerful opponent they can. Slaaneshi followers on the other hand have no problem murdering someone or killing the weak.

I agree that IW will replace mutations with bionics. Of course the ones with the most bionics from replacing mutations would still be the older IW. That's why I was suggesting calling them vets. I'm not saying it would be wise to waste an elite slot on them. I'm planning on my "vets" to be a normal squad of "plaguemarines".

Here are some sites with robots and bionics that with a little bit of modelling could help out with your project. I know I'm going to be using some of these.

http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/range.php?range=FW

look at the terminator robots.

http://www.em4miniatures.com/acatalog/ROBOTS.html

Either use the robots or bits for bionics.

http://www.rackham-store.com/boutique_us/liste_produits.cfm?type=760&code_lg=lg_us&num=48

I was thinking of these for daemonically possesed robots or for bionic bits.

http://www.alphaforgegames.com/droids.html

One of many sites with robots.

Raven1
20-09-2007, 18:27
Those look awesome, except they are all euorpean, and Im American. I can't I I wont I hate you Euro Trash...J/K im only joking, but seriously the cost of the unit, plus the cost of shipping would be aggregious.

Thanks though the wheels are already turning in my head for something else for my machine demons.

I don't really have those leet scratch build skills, but I have to start somewhere. I figure if I cut of most of a arm or leg, stick the remaing pieces together with a pin drill and a paper clip add some green stuff, and some plasticard more green stuff. Paint and well it will look sort of good. Good enough for me, I ain't trying to get into the golden demon competion here, and anyway practice makes perfect.

BrainFireBob
20-09-2007, 19:29
While I can see your argument against high cost armies (IG, Orks), I am still wondering about armies that cost about the same (Chaos, Eldar). I am still not convinced that Chaos wouldn't do close to as well as SM if they had legion codices, or Eldar if they had craftworld codices. This would assume that these armies would also have favorable rules and attention in WD, Black Gobbo, etc.

Chaos might. I don't think Eldar ever will.

If new players knew the fluff and what they were getting into before they started buying, maybe- but I don't buy that new players know all the background. They're going to be drawn into 40K by something that snags their attention when they look at it- and that something has to be identifiable. Eldar as "elves in space" aren't widely appealing, and while the Eldar themselves are, you already need to know about the Eldar to find it appealing.

SMs, and to a lesser extent CSM, are the recognizable supermen of current Hollywood tropes. That's that "cool factor" that attracts a player's interest.

Ddraiglais
20-09-2007, 19:31
Most of the better minis are European. I can only think of two good American mini companies off the top of my head.

I wouldn't worry about shipping too much. There are a lot of American distributers and stores for these companies. Try The War Store. They carry everything. I know for a fact they have the Rackham stuff.

BrainFireBob
20-09-2007, 19:33
This sums up my opinion of the new codex quite succinctly. For those who like to tell people that special rules don't make an army unique, I say they do, and in a better way than any old paint job which is what they would have you believe. Sorry, it is how the army *plays* that makes it unique. Paint is just paint.

Cheers, Gary

I disagree about the specific example- it misrepresents.

A unique army list gives an army a special flavor. The Accursed Crozius and extra troops choices aren't *enough* special rules for a truly unique list- the problem many of the rest of us had with the Craftworlds/Legion rules. They were at best freebie bonuses, at worst simply there, without affecting the army play to any significant degree.

Some of us felt it was a pathetic way to represent the specialness of those armies, and feel it's by being thematic army-wide you do so. So we're glad they're gone.