PDA

View Full Version : Botguns



Comrade Wraith
18-09-2007, 16:02
This is gonna hopefully be a short and sweet threat but something has been bugging me for a while now.
For those of you who have played the video games Dawn of war and Fire warrior, which portrayal of the boltgun is more accurate? I have always thought of the boltgun as a semi or fully auto gun much like the ones in dawn of war.
I dont ususally bother with fluff (i know most of it though so dont worry im not a noob) but for some reason....this bugs me.....hell i dont even collect space marines anymore:)

anyway......thankyou in advance

edit:sorry for typo in title

satormortis
18-09-2007, 16:48
Nope, a bolter normally lacks a full auto function (although some patterns do have it), they've only got single shot and rapid fire (bursts of 3-4 rounds). An automatic fire function isn't needed, as each bolt is a caseless miniature rocket and capable of blowing apart a human (or alien)

Firewarrior's portrail of bolters was rather accurate, i think.

Comrade Wraith
18-09-2007, 16:53
Imagain if Fire warrior bolters were extremly fast rapid fire (drool.........) thtd be like the most kick ass weapon ever

Ikkaan
18-09-2007, 17:00
I havenīt played fire warrior so i canīt comment on that...but generally it can be said that boltpistols fire single shots, bolters either single or burst and heavy bolters fire fully automatic.

The novel "Fulgrim" has a short notice on the lethality of automatic bolters, as anyone not having cover on the landing field massacres of isstvan was "ripped apart by a constant hail of bolt ammo". Makes sense if the targets need several hits to go down and are attacking in formation ;-)

Donīt know anything to add, the topic comes up regularly, maybe a search will bring up more.

Leftenant Gashrog
18-09-2007, 17:00
the current marine codex has a fluff sidebar saying the standard boltgun has a 30 round magazine and fires in 4 round bursts, however both Inquisitor and the Confrontation (precursor to Necromunda) have/had them as semi-automatic weapons with only 15-20 rounds per magazine

Wolf Scout Ewan
18-09-2007, 17:35
Bolt Guns are locked bolt semi auto/burst carbines. They fire iirc .75 mass reactive, caseless, armour piercing bolts.

Each bolt is similar to a sabot round used in modern day tanks. Where it becomes a unguided missile shortly after firing.

Closest thing in todays weaponry would be a automatic shotgun firing explosive slugs.

MrBigMr
18-09-2007, 18:10
Bolt Guns are locked bolt semi auto/burst carbines. They fire iirc .75 mass reactive, caseless, armour piercing bolts.
Nowhere does it say the bolts are caseless, and you forgot rocket propelled. .75 caliber rocket propelled, mass-reactive, armor piercing bolts.


Each bolt is similar to a sabot round used in modern day tanks. Where it becomes a unguided missile shortly after firing.
A sabot is an arrow like projectile smaller than the caliber of the weapon it is fire from to get the most of the firepower with more poinpoint puncture.
http://www.frfrogspad.com/sabot.jpg
Sabot is not a missile, it's a normal projectile round, just of different type.


Closest thing in todays weaponry would be a automatic shotgun firing explosive slugs.
Or maybe a gyrojet?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet
Or the XM25 launcher?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM25

LordXaras
18-09-2007, 20:32
the current marine codex has a fluff sidebar saying the standard boltgun has a 30 round magazine and fires in 4 round bursts, however both Inquisitor and the Confrontation (precursor to Necromunda) have/had them as semi-automatic weapons with only 15-20 rounds per magazine Those weapons are most likely meant to represent Boltguns of a size that allows unaugmented humans to use them, thus having vastly reduced size (smaller clip).

The semi-auto is probably a measure of ammo conservation - bolter ammo is not exactly the kind of thing you pick up at your local 7-11, it's specialist ammunition released only to the most expert fighting forces of the Imperium (heavy bolter rounds excluded), so acquiring bolter ammo outside of those forces might be an issue. Also, depending on how the bolts actually fire from the barrel, having something higher than semi-auto might be far too innacurate for someone without the stabilizing properties of Power Armour.

Mostwanted
18-09-2007, 20:43
I have read somewhere that the bolts are caseless. Can’t think where though. But on the side of the boltguns there is an ejection port. Also in most of the art work of marines firing Bolters they have shell casings flying about.

MrBigMr
18-09-2007, 20:48
Those weapons are most likely meant to represent Boltguns of a size that allows unaugmented humans to use them, thus having vastly reduced size (smaller clip).
I remember reading the Inquisitor rulebook and doesn't it have various clip sizes. 30 round banana magazine, 20-15 round straight and big big belt few bolter (with possible feeding problems).


The semi-auto is probably a measure of ammo conservation - bolter ammo is not exactly the kind of thing you pick up at your local 7-11, it's specialist ammunition released only to the most expert fighting forces of the Imperium (heavy bolter rounds excluded), so acquiring bolter ammo outside of those forces might be an issue. Also, depending on how the bolts actually fire from the barrel, having something higher than semi-auto might be far too innacurate for someone without the stabilizing properties of Power Armour.
Lets not forget that a bolter is basicly a 19mm rocket launcher. You don't need full-auto on it. Even if you miss, there's a strong chanse shrapnel and such will still wound the target. And even if the gun has low enough kick to it to enable anyone to fire it, full auto is far stronger than a single shot or burst.

RedStompa
18-09-2007, 21:38
Nowhere does it say the bolts are caseless, and you forgot rocket propelled. .75 caliber rocket propelled, mass-reactive, armor piercing bolts.

yes, and that would contradict nearly every picture dawn of a bolter in action in the 40k universe...

GodHead
18-09-2007, 23:18
GAH. Botguns here, Lightsavers in that other thread. Can no one spell correctly anymore?

chromedog
18-09-2007, 23:31
As to why bolters have ejection ports if they are caseless, even the G-11 had an ejection port. Even caseless rounds jam or misfire. What's easier, flick a lever and free/eject the dud, or dismantle it to eject the dud? (rhetorical question)

The whole .75 cal thing is a direct lift from Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat books (although they were recoilless as well).

Green Shoes
18-09-2007, 23:53
I believe at one point some GW official (one in charge of art direction perhaps?) stated that the only reason they draw the shell casings it to add more action and movement to the picture, even though the fluff states bolts as being caseless.

bench
19-09-2007, 00:05
I don't understand in dawn of war how a bolter with a "clip" can fire continuously with out being reloaded?

Brother Enok
19-09-2007, 00:09
I believe at one point some GW official (one in charge of art direction perhaps?) stated that the only reason they draw the shell casings it to add more action and movement to the picture, even though the Fluff states bolts as being caseless.

I heard that as well.


I don't understand in dawn of war how a bolter with a "clip" can fire continuously with out being reloaded?

Because its a RTS and reloading boltguns wouldn't add anything to the game.

Twisted Ferret
19-09-2007, 01:13
The bolters in Fire Warrior seemed too slow and rocketlike. I always imagined them to be a little quicker, but not quite as MG-like as the ones in DoW.

GodofWarTx
19-09-2007, 01:48
The Boltgun is not a gyrojet. There are too many flaws in gyrojet technology to be worthwhile. For instance, since it relied purely on rocket power, its muzzle velocity was extremely low as the round continued to accelerate until it terminated against an object. This created something like the hitting power of a .22 at 5 feet, the hitting power of a 30.06 at 20 feet, and the hitting power of a .45 at 35 feet.

A boltgun uses a charge to give it a high muzzle velocity and then the rocket motor ignites.

To me, the Bolters in DOW felt more like MP-40's. I didnt agree with their "sound" as being quite like a mini-rocket launcher, but more the typical machine gun sound. I think it would have been nicer to head the "crack" of the rockets igniting once they leave the barrel. I think in DOW they had a little bit too high a ROF as well. Relic made amazing strides in sound in Company of Heroes, im really looking forward to how they change things up in DOW2.

Grimbad
19-09-2007, 03:36
But unlike the gyrojet, if a bolter shot hits you at any speed, you'll have a hole the size of your head in you. The hitting power is, as far as I know, irrelevant to detonation.
I have somewhere a white dwarf with the short story "Sirens' song" by Gav Thorpe in it. It describes a catachan blazing away across a clearing at zombies. The bolter has a full auto setting (though keep in mind there's more than one kind of bolter, possibly explaining varying clip sizes). It makes a 'brakka' noise when fired. The propellant of the bolt looks like a 'bright spark' moving through the dark. It moves slow enough to be tracked with the human eye. That's the only source I have on the matter.

RexTalon
19-09-2007, 04:12
But unlike the gyrojet, if a bolter shot hits you at any speed, you'll have a hole the size of your head in you. The hitting power is, as far as I know, irrelevant to detonation.
I have somewhere a white dwarf with the short story "Sirens' song" by Gav Thorpe in it...

The "hitting power" is going to give you a measure of penetration. If the round has penetrated deeper, then the resultant detonation will be more devastating.
For an experiment on this, try placing a firecracker in your open palm. When it explodes you might get a little carbon burn mark on your hand. Try it again, but this time close your hand around the firecracker. When you get back from the hospital, let us know how many fingers you have left.

Oh, and I wouldn't take anything that hack says seriously.
:cheese:

Biomass Denial
19-09-2007, 06:31
Caseless bolter. Think of marine in close combat fight who puts the barrel of his bolter to some traitor scums head and as the bolt starts to emerge from the barrel it explodes rendering the gun useless.

Cased bolter shell Same story up untill the round penertrates the traitors head before exploding giving our friendly neighbourhood marine a new paint scheme.

Caseless would only work if the bolt accelerates to a velocity great enough to cause damage at point blank range before exiting the barrel. Pretty good rocket fuel you have there.........

jhon
19-09-2007, 08:20
you know in some backgound fulff in the 3 ed chapter appovel , their is a part about a bolt hit an unarmour cultist in close range. that the bolt go though the cultist body,and blow up an other cultist's head .
as the caseless round .. humm...

Geetarman
19-09-2007, 08:51
The bolter has a full auto setting (though keep in mind there's more than one kind of bolter, possibly explaining varying clip sizes). It makes a 'brakka' noise when fired.

In the horus rising series bolters firing sounds are described as being more like doorslams which I think gives a really nice audio visual of what they would be like...

Gman

Ikkaan
19-09-2007, 09:27
The imperium and its weapons factories are too different from each other to come to an conclusion here. Several models of bolters (Mars (standard pattern during the Great Crusade), Ultima, Crusade, Heresy, Fillienostos, Nostra, Godwyn-Deaz and Astartes Umbra Patterns) are used within the imperium, and the same pattern may be produced with different parts on different forgeworlds and space marine forges. Forges may have different ideas about the fact if the bolter ammo should be caseless or not. So itīs perfectly possible to have a picture of a space marine firing a bolter that ejects shells and another marine firing a similar model without an eject port.

Cry of the Wind
19-09-2007, 12:37
According to Imperial Armour Volume 2 the bolter has cased rounds. I don't have my copy with me but perhaps someone who does could explain the reason why bolters need cased ammo. I only remember it had something to do with the exhaust of rocket blast interfering with its ballistic properties and so it needs to be fired conventionally out of the barrel before the rocket part kicks in.

Sgt Biffo
19-09-2007, 12:46
GAH. Botguns here, Lightsavers in that other thread. Can no one spell correctly anymore?

I thought he might have been referring to Deathspitters, as the Battle Manual states that they have a projectile "colon" instead of a "barrel".:D


I don't have my copy with me but perhaps someone who does could explain the reason why bolters need cased ammo.

It's probably the same reason that no military in the world has a standard issue rifle that uses caseless ammo. Cased ammo is far more resilient to environmental effects and maintenance of cased weaponry is considerably less than its caseless counterparts.

MrBigMr
19-09-2007, 13:44
I believe at one point some GW official (one in charge of art direction perhaps?) stated that the only reason they draw the shell casings it to add more action and movement to the picture, even though the fluff states bolts as being caseless.
Where does it state they're caseless anymore? I don't remember the rulebook saying anything about the rounds being caseless, nor have I seen the statement anywhere else. The pictures of bolts clearly show them in casings.


The bolters in Fire Warrior seemed too slow and rocketlike. I always imagined them to be a little quicker, but not quite as MG-like as the ones in DoW.
I find Fire Warrior bolters to be the best ones around.
Semi/burst fire, check.
Rocket propelled, check.
Explosive, check.

Maybe the projectiles moved too slow, but so did las bolts, so whatcha gonna do 'bout it?


The Boltgun is not a gyrojet.

A boltgun uses a charge to give it a high muzzle velocity and then the rocket motor ignites.
It's a self propelled projectile, a gyrojet. Only difference is that the bolt is cleared from the barrel via small charge that also ignites the rockets on the bolt. Even while missiles have their own propellant, some are fired out of the tube by a small charge. Still they are missiles.


There are too many flaws in gyrojet technology to be worthwhile. For instance, since it relied purely on rocket power, its muzzle velocity was extremely low as the round continued to accelerate until it terminated against an object.
Bolters have a small initial velocity. In some novel a (chaos?) marine survived a hit to his head from a bolter/bolt pistol at point blank range due to the low velocity.


Caseless bolter. Think of marine in close combat fight who puts the barrel of his bolter to some traitor scums head and as the bolt starts to emerge from the barrel it explodes rendering the gun useless.
One would assume there to be a safety mechanism in the bolt, like an arming mechanism. In grenade launcher grenades the grenade has a sort of ball bearing thing inside it that calculates rotation of the grenade in mid air and after certain amount of spins arms the detonator. So a bolt might, and should have similar thing in them.

Orion Vargus
19-09-2007, 14:37
There is a little bit of debait as to what the boltgun fires and how... In truth the bolter is one of the most deverse weapons in the fluff...Some rounds are armour piercing or mass reactive (Depleted Uranium that explodes a micro-second after impact for maximum destruction). But there are a hand full of other ammo variants.
Also the calibre can varry from weapon to weapon depending on which forge it was produced and when.
The ammo isn't always caseless. (Originally it was always caseless but because so many pictures showed bolt guns/pistols ejecting spent cases GW decided to change the fluff to say it could be either).
The rate of fire is also a variant bepending on the pattern and it is not un common for spacemarines to modify there bolters.
I think that because the bolter has been explained in so many conflicting ways through out its history the only way any of these descriptions could be accurate is if the writers at GW decided that bolter can vary so much.

I do believe that is the bottom line.
Derversity.
Discussion finished go home...

Green Shoes
19-09-2007, 15:45
Caseless bolter. Think of marine in close combat fight who puts the barrel of his bolter to some traitor scums head and as the bolt starts to emerge from the barrel it explodes rendering the gun useless.

Cased bolter shell Same story up untill the round penertrates the traitors head before exploding giving our friendly neighbourhood marine a new paint scheme.

Caseless would only work if the bolt accelerates to a velocity great enough to cause damage at point blank range before exiting the barrel. Pretty good rocket fuel you have there.........


One would assume there to be a safety mechanism in the bolt, like an arming mechanism. In grenade launcher grenades the grenade has a sort of ball bearing thing inside it that calculates rotation of the grenade in mid air and after certain amount of spins arms the detonator. So a bolt might, and should have similar thing in them.

It is very possible there is an arming mechanism like they have on current day missiles. The way it works is that there is a small "propeller" on the nose of the missile that spins when in flight due to wind resistance. This small propeller arms the missile when it has spun enough to spark a primer or pull a pin or something. Unfortunately this means that Bolter rounds wouldn't explode until a certain distance, but they would still have kinetic energy from the charge that expells them from the barrel.

I definately remember reading in a book (Inquisition War trilogy, actually, again _old_ source...) that Bolters make a "BANG whoosh crump" noise representing the initial charge, the jet engine, then the small explosion in the target.

EDIT: spelun

Witchfire
19-09-2007, 16:29
depends what mk of bolter it is, a ''godwyn'' pattern will be different from an ''imperator'' pattern, like a different brand of tomato soup will taste and look different from the last although theyre the same thing.

Witchfire
19-09-2007, 19:40
There is a little bit of debait as to what the boltgun fires and how... In truth the bolter is one of the most deverse weapons in the fluff...Some rounds are armour piercing or mass reactive (Depleted Uranium that explodes a micro-second after impact for maximum destruction). But there are a hand full of other ammo variants.
Also the calibre can varry from weapon to weapon depending on which forge it was produced and when.
The ammo isn't always caseless. (Originally it was always caseless but because so many pictures showed bolt guns/pistols ejecting spent cases GW decided to change the fluff to say it could be either).
The rate of fire is also a variant bepending on the pattern and it is not un common for spacemarines to modify there bolters.
I think that because the bolter has been explained in so many conflicting ways through out its history the only way any of these descriptions could be accurate is if the writers at GW decided that bolter can vary so much.

I do believe that is the bottom line.
Derversity.
Discussion finished go home...

depleted deuterium not uranium, deuterium is heavy water if i recall correctly, which would mean the bolt shell could operate on a fluid core, which would make the idea of them being self-propelled make a bit more sense...

also, your basic boltgun is loaded with a 'sickle' magazine, which holds 20-30 rounds. this 'sickle' is the curved part on the bottom of boltguns and bolt pistols. one would assume that the uncased sheels are pushed into te magazine manually before clipping onto the gun and spitting death.

Isambard
19-09-2007, 19:55
May I direct your attention here (http://takentooseriously.blogspot.com/2006/09/secret-lives-of-bolters.html) for all you ever wanted to know about bolters, but were afraid to ask.

Sgt Biffo
20-09-2007, 06:48
Originally it was always caseless but because so many pictures showed bolt guns/pistols ejecting spent cases GW decided to change the fluff to say it could be either

Incorrect! Originally (RT) there was no mention of propellant systems or gyro-jet rounds only that the ammunition was armour piercing and explosive. It was not until the Battle Manual (the pre-cursor to 2nd Edition 40k) supplement that this material was added though it was touched on in the Confrontation rules that were the pre-cursor to Necromunda.


I do believe that is the bottom line.

A ram shackle collection of half remembering does not even begin to get close to the bottom line


Discussion finished go home...

:confused:Yeah... Umm... If you think that post covered everything about Bolters your quite mistaken. Perhaps its best you go home and read up on them before posting again.

Kasonic
20-09-2007, 07:13
We've already invented the bolter.

Behold, the Atchisson Assault Shotgun, or AA12. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3v8AN_fJlQ)

(See 1:30 to 3:00, and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoL3JVOGnKc) for the first part of the video)

Gotta love the Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter in the last half.