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Orion Vargus
19-09-2007, 15:44
The point came to me as I pondered the idea of doing a fallen angle army.
So as the title suggest...What has happened to Cypher. There are no funky rules to use him any more. Model Wasn't great but it was a great Idea.

Nargrakhan
19-09-2007, 16:00
I never followed the whole Cypher thing... way cool character, but his tale is spread across too many books for me to afford. ;)

I know he lost his phase blade to the Deceiver C'tan - but got away alive.

IIRC, he was supposedly captured by the Dark Angels, who seemingly fought and destroyed allied Space Marines to get him (who captured him first) - or was that another Fallen I'm getting confused with - but mysteriously vanished from their prison as he always does.

I believe the broken sword he carries, is still broken though...

Danjester
19-09-2007, 16:06
Last rumour I heard from a couple of diff store managers is that he'll be included in IA: Siege of Vraks volume 2, and that'll explain why the DA get involved in the first place.

Last time we saw him in the fluff was during EoT where the BT captured him under his "Mouth of the Emperor" alter-ego but he vanished from the cell inexplicably. The DA then destroyed the BT ship that had captured and transported him, to prevent their secret getting out.

I may be wrong, so if anyone else remembers it better, feel free to correct me.

Nargrakhan
19-09-2007, 16:17
Yea... I think you got the tale right.

Better than I did at least. :)

Arcane_Blade
19-09-2007, 16:25
I dunno, I was never good at maths.

*Ba-dum-tish*

Hey, somebody had to say something. ;)

@Nargrakhan: I'm pretty sure the Cypher being captured thing is right, I believe the Dark Angles attacked the Black Templars to get him.

Father Nurgle
19-09-2007, 23:30
If I'm not mistaken, in the DA codex all that was montioned about him culminated into, "He's still at large."

dark_horizons80
20-09-2007, 00:39
And has painted his armour an got a haircut??

The Emperor's Faithfull
20-09-2007, 03:34
One thing I dont get is how Fallen can pose as normal people....I wont name books as to not spoil anything for anyone...but there is a SW book where one Fallen is an Imperial Guard commander....I would think it would be obvious to tell that something isnt right....

Tehkonrad
20-09-2007, 07:44
yeah it would be like this
commisar: alright troops this is your new leader colonel YpherC haosC
trooper: he's ten feet tall and spits acid!
commisar: don't pick on him cause he's different!

pookie
20-09-2007, 09:25
Last rumour I heard from a couple of diff store managers is that he'll be included in IA: Siege of Vraks volume 2, and that'll explain why the DA get involved in the first place.

Last time we saw him in the fluff was during EoT where the BT captured him under his "Mouth of the Emperor" alter-ego but he vanished from the cell inexplicably. The DA then destroyed the BT ship that had captured and transported him, to prevent their secret getting out.

I may be wrong, so if anyone else remembers it better, feel free to correct me.


it was the BT Ophidium Crusade that captured him after coming across a system that the DA were already attacking, they offered to help, and with reluctance it was accepted, funny then that the Bt should beat the DA to Cypher! were a much supperior chapter anyway! ;)

Vesica
20-09-2007, 13:03
yeah it would be like this
commisar: alright troops this is your new leader colonel YpherC haosC
trooper: he's ten feet tall and spits acid!
commisar: don't pick on him cause he's different!

lol, i got a laugh out of that.

That is a good point tho, mabye they put there shoes on there knees and walk like that?

Eulenspiegel
21-09-2007, 07:03
Not wanting to hijack this innocent little thread, but is "Angle" instead of "Angel" now official? Similar to Emporer and such?`
:cool:

Grindgodgrind
21-09-2007, 10:06
Well, the dark lord of trigonometry Pythagoras slew Cypher.....

Nargus
21-09-2007, 10:20
@all What amuses me about the Fallen hiding in society is they are all First Founding marines - circa 10,000 years old...how do they apply for these jobs..?

So Mr Evil Demigod, can you explain the gap in your employment for the six thousand years indicated here?

HiveFleetEzekial
21-09-2007, 11:01
Last rumour I heard from a couple of diff store managers is that he'll be included in IA: Siege of Vraks volume 2, and that'll explain why the DA get involved in the first place.

Last time we saw him in the fluff was during EoT where the BT captured him under his "Mouth of the Emperor" alter-ego but he vanished from the cell inexplicably. The DA then destroyed the BT ship that had captured and transported him, to prevent their secret getting out.

I may be wrong, so if anyone else remembers it better, feel free to correct me.

Ok, I will.. :D

Continuing on from what pookie said above...

They had captured 'the Voice of The Emperor" (not "the Mouth..."), we damanded they hand him over imediatly for our own questioning. At first they refused, so our ship armed and brought guns to bare on them... needless to say they relented and gave him up. Then he somehow managed to escape. We departed, off to re-track him down, the BT cruiser still in orbit of the planet, fully intact. It the Ophidian Gulf was later lost in warp after it's last transmission back to their HQ(or whoever they report to).

"We left before they did, and have nothing to do with their disapearance in the warp. It is afterall a dangerous area to navigate, and ships get lost there all the time" :skull:

downundercadet07
21-09-2007, 11:11
The only new bit about him in the codex is that he has the High Lords of Terra sweating. In an unprecedented move, the DA requesting standing up an entire chapter of Space Marines to hunt down Cypher, and the High Lords agreed to it. Apparently it is rare to the point of never happening that a chapter requests a new chapter, but I guess he is that dangerous to the status quo. I believe the chapter is named 'The Disciples of Caliban' but I don't have a book in front of me.

HiveFleetEzekial
21-09-2007, 11:23
You believe correctly.. :D 'Tis my chapter :skull:

(not mine 'officialy', but my online persona has changed since I originally got on here, Much darker, more sinister, and taking less crap on certain issues. So I ended up repainting my DA to fit, 'darker and more sinister looking'. Came to find out the only differences I had when the new 'dex came out, was a swapping of gun/housing colors. oddly though, even those were the same colors, just swapped! So, I've adopted them, all around the net. :D )

pookie
21-09-2007, 11:32
Ok, I will.. :D

Continuing on from what pookie said above...

They had captured 'the Voice of The Emperor" (not "the Mouth..."), we damanded they hand him over imediatly for our own questioning. At first they refused, so our ship armed and brought guns to bare on them... needless to say they relented and gave him up. Then he somehow managed to escape. We departed, off to re-track him down, the BT cruiser still in orbit of the planet, fully intact. It the Ophidian Gulf was later lost in warp after it's last transmission back to their HQ(or whoever they report to).

"We left before they did, and have nothing to do with their disapearance in the warp. It is afterall a dangerous area to navigate, and ships get lost there all the time" :skull:

ive not yet read the DA Dex, is that in there?

oh and i meant 'Voice' not mouth... honest :p

HiveFleetEzekial
21-09-2007, 11:48
No, that's from th BT codex. And even it only slightly implies we "may" have done it.. just from mentioning us hunting a fallen, coupled with our known 'methods'. It doesn't specifically say we actually "did it".. (and it could likely be left out, due to 'technical problems' that we decided better, and came back at the last moments and did. or it could have been The Voice had planted something in heir ship that did it. Or he lied to us before escaping, something akin to 'hey, i told them all of your little secrets', and set off a nerve of paranoia causing us to go back and make sure.. No fluff actually says, for 100% sure, on way or the other. So both sides will always argue it, based on their own opinions.)


I know how it was in there (just incase it was wondered.. me being DA and sumarising BT codex stuff lol).. because I don't like to miss out on any fluff for my most prefered army! So I read all of it that I can find, and commit as much as I can to memory.

pookie
21-09-2007, 12:07
its not in my BT dex... your version is deffinatly from a DA slant and the BT version is from their PoV, hmmm, mite have to re read my Dex.... ( im full ov cold too so could just be me being 'Numb' ;)

Nargrakhan
21-09-2007, 14:45
"We left before they did, and have nothing to do with their disapearance in the warp. It is afterall a dangerous area to navigate, and ships get lost there all the time" :skull:

So you say... you might have just left to hide behind a planet or something, then followed them and caused an accident to happen. ;)

Chilltouch
21-09-2007, 15:57
He became obtuse.

Progena
21-09-2007, 22:29
I pretty much collect GW Armybooks/Codexes, BL books and White Dwarves. In UK WD 312 there's an article on different BT Crusades where the Crusade of the Ophidium Gulf was expanded upon. It's stated there that the BT came across a black armoured (the 'eavy metal team painted Cypher dark green) SM at the heart of the alien palace. He was described as having two pistols in his belt and a sheated sword across his back. The mysterious figure then makes a reference to the 'Lion' and his 'lapdogs'. The article ends with mentioning that High Marshal Helbrecht has his suspisions of what happened to his men. But I'm not sure WD articles can be labeled 'canon'.

Also the note in BT Codex puts the 'Voice of the Emperor's stronghold in the Veiled region of the Galactic South... that's pretty far from the Eye of Terror where he was supposedly active. And in addition, if Cypher is really 'making his way to Terra' as is suggested in the DA codex, he seems to have missed Terra on his way south by about half a galaxy.

And if Cypher was captured by the BT and then handed over to the DA, why didn't anyone consider disarming him? You'd think the DA would want their 'Lion Sword' back.

Wikiperdia.org has collected all the rumours about Cypher here (loads of possible spoilers though):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypher_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29

Orion Vargus
25-09-2007, 10:45
Not wanting to hijack this innocent little thread, but is "Angle" instead of "Angel" now official? Similar to Emporer and such?`
:cool:

Some has to point out the spelling mistake every time:o so fu**ing what! everone understands what I ment lol:D.

stormblade
25-09-2007, 10:52
Some has to point out the spelling mistake every time:o so fu**ing what! everone understands what I ment lol:D.

- Dear god! So you weren't speaking about the infamous Fallen Angle- the one who deserted his brethren in order to become spherical and obnoxiously pervert the sacred and perfect angleness of his father The God-Angle:D

Orion Vargus
25-09-2007, 11:05
Does any one know the background around the Lion Sword I'm sure fluff says that cypher is on his way to terra to reforge the Lion Sword at the base of the golden throne and ask the emperor for forgiveness (how the hell he plans to get there is a mystery to me).
Has any one else heard this???

Orion Vargus
25-09-2007, 11:16
- Dear god! So you weren't speaking about the infamous Fallen Angle- the one who deserted his brethren in order to become spherical and obnoxiously pervert the sacred and perfect angleness of his father The God-Angle:D

Yeh I wanted to do a thread about that guy aswell but damn typo has ruined it. He's to straight for his own good cursed forever.

MadDoc
25-09-2007, 11:29
its not in my BT dex... your version is deffinatly from a DA slant and the BT version is from their PoV, hmmm, mite have to re read my Dex.... ( im full ov cold too so could just be me being 'Numb' ;)

HiveFleetEzekiel was not mistaken, it is in the Codex. Page 20, left side, roughly 1/3 of the way down under the title 998.M41 - Crusade of the Ophidium Gulf. He's also right about there being nothing more than the most tenuous of inferences that the Dark Angels are responisble for the disappearance of the Ophidium Gulf. In that regard, your suggestion that he's interpreting things from a biased DA perspective is incorrect.


Does any one know the background around the Lion Sword I'm sure fluff says that cypher is on his way to terra to reforge the Lion Sword at the base of the golden throne and ask the emperor for forgiveness (how the hell he plans to get there is a mystery to me).
Has any one else heard this???

Thats fan speculation and has absolutely no solid evidence to back it up (in fact Cypher's movements upto, and after the events of, the 13th Black Crusade directly contradict the only piece of supposed evidence that actually supported this theory).

Chaos Undecided
25-09-2007, 11:35
Heading a little off topic maybe but had a bit of input in reply to the earlier post of fallen posing as normal humans.

Going from the background most of the Fallen were not true Space Marines they were men of Caliban who like Luther were to old to undergo the process of becoming a Marine but they were enhanced so as to be better able to fight alongside the Dark Angels and use the similar equipment. However it would seem this wasnt sufficient for the needs of the Great Crusade and most were left behind to garrison Caliban and eventually revolt against the Imperium.

So although they might be exceptionally large and strong for a human most would be able to pass as one.

I haven't read the new Horus Heresy book yet which is sitting in my to read pile but this will probably provide more background on the nature of the fallen.

DantesInferno
25-09-2007, 12:22
HiveFleetEzekiel was not mistaken, it is in the Codex. Page 20, left side, roughly 1/3 of the way down under the title 998.M41 - Crusade of the Ophidium Gulf. He's also right about there being nothing more than the most tenuous of inferences that the Dark Angels are responisble for the disappearance of the Ophidium Gulf. In that regard, your suggestion that he's interpreting things from a biased DA perspective is incorrect.

Sure. It was all a terrible coincidence! (:rolleyes:)


Thats fan speculation and has absolutely no solid evidence to back it up (in fact Cypher's movements upto, and after the events of, the 13th Black Crusade directly contradict the only piece of supposed evidence that actually supported this theory).

Well, not so much fan speculation as speculation from the canonical material itself:

Some whisper that Cypher may represent the Fallen Angels' only chance of redemption, and that his seemingly random appearances hide a pattern which reveals that he is slowly moving across the galaxy towards Earth and the Emperor himself. They also point to the fact that Cypher carries a sword which he never draws or uses in combat, and that this could be fabled Lion Sword, wielded by Lion El'Jonson himself, thought lost forever following the Primarch's final confrontation with the arch-heretic Luther.

Coupled with:

“…Much has been said of Cypher, but most of it is lies, or rumours, or hearsay... Why I met some that believed the Emperor dead and Cypher ascended in his place! Ha, the gullibility of those that believe but do not question” [subject screams as punishment is administered for his blasphemy] “...Th-th-thank you brother, I had forgotten that it was such questioning that led me here.... As for Cypher, this much I know to be true, for I have followed him and fought at his side. He is a man haunted by our guilt, by the shame that we Fallen Ones bear. He is a man with a mission, a mission to redeem us for that... that act which was done all those millennia ago and which brought our downfall. He rarely speaks, but when he does his words ring true and comfort to us... to us that have not known comfort for long, dark years. And we know he will be our saviour, for he carries at his side the broken sword of our Lord and Primarch, the Lion Blade, bless its name!”[Subject screams as punishment is administered for his blasphemy] “Y-y-you fool, what is pain to one such as I... all that matters, all you need to know, is that when the sword is reforged, us Fallen will be saved, and our long purgatory will be at an end.”
-Excerpt from transcript of interrogation of the Fallen One formerly known as Brother Galotha

So, certainly nothing conclusive, but some quite persuasive theories.

MadDoc
25-09-2007, 22:12
Sure. It was all a terrible coincidence! (:rolleyes:)

Unnecessary sarcasm not withstanding, there's as much evidence to suggest that, as there is to suggest that the Dark Angels were actually responsible. (Though I don't doubt they probably were.)


Well, not so much fan speculation as speculation from the canonical material itself:

<SNIP>

So, certainly nothing conclusive, but some quite persuasive theories.

So tenuous speculation by fans based on unrelated vague/oblique inferences in the fluff, in other words fan speculation based on no solid evidence. :rolleyes: Sorry, but how exactly was any of that supposed to counter what I'd said? Or was it said just for the sake of being contrary? Seriously... :eyebrows:

DantesInferno
25-09-2007, 22:31
Unnecessary sarcasm not withstanding, there's as much evidence to suggest that, as there is to suggest that the Dark Angels were actually responsible.

You really think so? The Black Templars capture a Marine in ancient, black power armour, claiming to be the Voice of the Emperor (whose previous descriptions in the background match Cypher pretty well). The Dark Angels threaten to fire on them unless they release their prisoner. The Black Templars do release their prisoner to the Dark Angels, then their ship mysteriously disappears without a trace. While it doesn't explicitly say the Dark Angels destroyed the Black Templar ship to cover all traces of the Fallen, I certainly wouldn't be betting my house against it. It seems exactly what the Dark Angels would do in the circumstances.

The Dark Angels have a 10 000 year old secret they've kept from the rest of the Imperium (occasional suspicious Inquisitors have probably got a sniff, but not much more). You simply can't keep secrets of that magnitude without being extremely ruthless. If you let people who have interrogated Fallen simply walk away to tell their Chapter (and the Inquisition, given the Black Templars' relationship), your secret won't last 100 years, let alone 10 000.


So tenuous speculation by fans based on unrelated vague/oblique inferences in the fluff, in other words fan speculation based on no solid evidence. :rolleyes: Sorry, but how exactly was any of that supposed to counter what I'd said? Or was it said just for the sake of being contrary? Seriously... :eyebrows:

It isn't just speculation by fans, it's speculation in the background itself! Describing something as "fan speculation" seems equivalent to saying that it's completely void of a canonical basis. I think that the Codex saying something is a theory counts as solid evidence. Sure, not necessarily true evidence, but at least something to be taken into account.

It was basically the tone of your post which I was responding to. Writing off legitimate theories supported by versions of events presented in the canonical material as "fan speculation", thereby suggesting that they're baseless and wrong is going way too far.

MadDoc
26-09-2007, 01:32
You really think so? The Black Templars capture a Marine in ancient, black power armour, claiming to be the Voice of the Emperor (whose previous descriptions in the background match Cypher pretty well). The Dark Angels threaten to fire on them unless they release their prisoner...

<KER-SNIPPITY>

...simply can't keep secrets of that magnitude without being extremely ruthless. If you let people who have interrogated Fallen simply walk away to tell their Chapter (and the Inquisition, given the Black Templars' relationship), your secret won't last 100 years, let alone 10 000.

Way to miss out a key part of what I'd written and thereby misrepresent me... :mad:


(Though I don't doubt they probably were.)

Remember this bit? :eyebrows: *shakes head*


It isn't just speculation by fans, it's speculation in the background itself!

Actually, its speculation by fans based on disparate inferences from within the background. If its speculated within the background itself why couldn't you find a single cohesive extract to support that assertion? That would be proof positive, now wouldn't it? Although that would require that such an example of said speculation actually existed. The one and only place there is a mention of a supposed pattern of his appearances moving towards Terra, and of him carrying a Sword which could be the Lion Sword is in the Dark Angels codex and there is no mention at all (inferred or otherwise) of his goal being the reforging the Sword.


Describing something as "fan speculation" seems equivalent to saying that it's completely void of a canonical basis. I think that the Codex saying something is a theory counts as solid evidence. Sure, not necessarily true evidence, but at least something to be taken into account.

If the Codex was actually explicit (or even implicit) in stating that then yes, but your "solid evidence" is little more than drawing on two seperate and disparate sources to come up with a sweeping conclusion that you're calling solid evidence.


It was basically the tone of your post which I was responding to.

The tone of my post? Like the legitimate question of what tenuous points drawn from two disparate pieces of background and shoehorned into "proof" of a theory was supposed to prove? Or the proving of a point part? :rolleyes:


Writing off legitimate theories supported by versions of events presented in the canonical material as "fan speculation", thereby suggesting that they're baseless and wrong is going way too far.

As opposed to taking two (or more) disparate parts of background and drawing on the inferences of selective parts of said pieces to legitimise a theory as being supported by canonical material? :rolleyes:

DantesInferno
26-09-2007, 02:01
Way to miss out a key part of what I'd written and thereby misrepresent me... :mad:



Remember this bit? :eyebrows: *shakes head*

Apologies. I was more referring to your statement that there was as much evidence for the Dark Angels being responsible as there was evidence that they weren't responsible. There's a whole lot of circumstantial evidence that the Dark Angels did it.


Actually, its speculation by fans based on disparate inferences from within the background. If its speculated within the background itself why couldn't you find a single cohesive extract to support that assertion? That would be proof positive, now wouldn't it? Although that would require that such an example of said speculation actually existed. The one and only place there is a mention of a supposed pattern of his appearances moving towards Terra, and of him carrying a Sword which could be the Lion Sword is in the Dark Angels codex and there is no mention at all (inferred or otherwise) of his goal being the reforging the Sword.

Uh, what? I did in my earlier post. The 2nd ed Chaos Codex, for one, mentions that some believe that Cypher is heading towards Terra to redeem the Fallen, and that this is connected to the Lion Sword. The Fallen Galotha in the 3.0 ed Chaos Codex certainly believes that that is what Cypher is doing.


If the Codex was actually explicit (or even implicit) in stating that then yes, but your "solid evidence" is little more than drawing on two seperate and disparate sources to come up with a sweeping conclusion that you're calling solid evidence.

Well, the 2nd ed Chaos Codex does provide explicit evidence


As opposed to taking two (or more) disparate parts of background and drawing on the inferences of selective parts of said pieces to legitimise a theory as being supported by canonical material? :rolleyes:

The theory that Cypher is heading towards Terra to reforge the Lion Sword and redeem the Fallen is supported by canonical material - there are codices saying that it's a possible theory. Moreover it certainly seems like a plausible concept, given everything else we know about Cypher.

Of course, the canonical material doesn't say that it's objectively true. But what is, in the context of 40k? If you're going to demand certainty, I can't imagine you'll have much fun in the 40k Background forum ;) There's precious little else to do here (or of course we could just have more "Can Space Marines have sex?" and "Where are the Missing Primarchs?" threads). All of the really interesting stuff is interpretation and speculation, one way or another.

LexxBomb
26-09-2007, 08:12
dont forget that gw has a habit on going back on its on fluff (be it canon or not) such as cypher heading to wards terra and then have him in the eye of terror part way through the 13th Crusade

MadDoc
26-09-2007, 10:19
Uh, what? I did in my earlier post.

And that would be where exactly? Lets see...


The 2nd ed Chaos Codex, for one, mentions that some believe that Cypher is heading towards Terra to redeem the Fallen, and that this is connected to the Lion Sword.

Actually there is no direct linking of the supposed pattern of appearances leading to Terra (a theory which Cypher's appearances during the Eye of Terror Campaign blew out of the water anyway) to the Lion Sword in the extract. If anything its linked to the clause "Cypher may represent the Fallen Angels' only chance of redemption" and is simply a suggestion that his having the Lion's own Sword is a good omen for the Fallen.

So its not there. Maybe this next piece...


The Fallen Galotha in the 3.0 ed Chaos Codex certainly believes that that is what Cypher is doing.

Nope. Since he doesn't even hint that Cypher is heading towards Terra, or that the Emperor has any part to play in the reforging of the Sword, or any other even veiled references to the theory... I don't see your "proof" in a single cohesive source anywhere. :confused:


Well, the 2nd ed Chaos Codex does provide explicit evidence

No it doesn't. Especially not in the extract you quoted, it hints he might be headed towards Terra, there is no (even oblique) reference to reforging the Lion Sword.


The theory that Cypher is heading towards Terra to reforge the Lion Sword and redeem the Fallen is supported by canonical material - there are codices saying that it's a possible theory.

Where exactly? You still haven't provided a single source that says that. You've provided two disparate sources and taken the bits you need (regardless of relevance to each other) to try and support your position. That is not a single cohesive source.


Moreover it certainly seems like a plausible concept, given everything else we know about Cypher.

All of what exactly? Most of whats known is hearsay and specualtion at best, and where its not it usually gives next to no insight into his actual motivations.


Of course, the canonical material doesn't say that it's objectively true.

I'm not asking for absolutes, but there's a difference between speculation based on veiled inferences (drawn from different sources at that) and solid evidence.


But what is, in the context of 40k? If you're going to demand certainty,

I don't demand certainty, just accuracy.


I can't imagine you'll have much fun in the 40k Background forum ;)

I've been having fun here for a while... and getting frustrated with the inaccuracies and misrepresentations I often see flying around as well. :cries: *sigh*


There's precious little else to do here (or of course we could just have more "Can Space Marines have sex?" and "Where are the Missing Primarchs?" threads).

Or we could beat ourselves unconscious with our keyboards, thats about as appealing an idea as any of those. ;)


All of the really interesting stuff is interpretation and speculation, one way or another.

Which I have no problem with, but suggesting something which is speculation (based of inferences taken from multiple disparate sources) is anything other than speculation is just plain wrong.

DantesInferno
26-09-2007, 12:16
Actually there is no direct linking of the supposed pattern of appearances leading to Terra (a theory which Cypher's appearances during the Eye of Terror Campaign blew out of the water anyway) to the Lion Sword in the extract. If anything its linked to the clause "Cypher may represent the Fallen Angels' only chance of redemption" and is simply a suggestion that his having the Lion's own Sword is a good omen for the Fallen.

Nope. Since he doesn't even hint that Cypher is heading towards Terra, or that the Emperor has any part to play in the reforging of the Sword, or any other even veiled references to the theory... I don't see your "proof" in a single cohesive source anywhere. :confused:

No it doesn't. Especially not in the extract you quoted, it hints he might be headed towards Terra, there is no (even oblique) reference to reforging the Lion Sword.

Where exactly? You still haven't provided a single source that says that. You've provided two disparate sources and taken the bits you need (regardless of relevance to each other) to try and support your position. That is not a single cohesive source.

Why exactly do you expect all the information to come from a single source? A theory seems to me to be more persuasive if it's sourced from multiple background pieces.

When you put together the two sources (2nd ed Chaos Codex, 3.0 ed Chaos Codex, along with the article on Cypher around WD 270, which reinforces the 2nd ed Chaos Codex version) you get speculation that:
Cypher is slowly heading towards Terra, and the Emperor;
He carries with him a broken sword that he never uses in combat;
The sword he carries is the Lion Sword;
He's on a mission to redeem the Fallen;
He's going to do it by reforging the Lion Sword.

It seems to me as good a theory as any about what Cypher could be up to, and there certainly aren't any alternatives presented in the canonical background.


Which I have no problem with, but suggesting something which is speculation (based of inferences taken from multiple disparate sources) is anything other than speculation is just plain wrong.

I wasn't suggesting it was anything other than speculation. I was just pointing out that it was speculation that has a deal of canonical support.

LexxBomb
26-09-2007, 12:43
and every thing an Inquisitor says is speculation since the Emperor lost the ability to speak to anyone who isn't a psycher, and they generaly arn't allowed near him except for soul binding.

speculation is very much a part of the background of wh40k.

as to cyphers "Misson" I like to think of him as a Space Marine doing the job of a radical Inquisitor. Remember that all the actions Cypher did as the voice of the Emperor had a Net Benefical effect on Imperial Loyalty and Faith

SOTIRIOS
26-09-2007, 13:52
Thats fan speculation and has absolutely no solid evidence to back it up (in fact Cypher's movements upto, and after the events of, the 13th Black Crusade directly contradict the only piece of supposed evidence that actually supported this theory).

This(about the sword and Terra) is not fan speculation...It is in official fluff for Cypher, Maddoc. Just because you don't like it does not mean it is not true....

LexxBomb
26-09-2007, 13:56
the only bit of fan speculation involving the lion sword that isn't in the official fluff is cypher killing the emperor with the regorged blade thus enabling the freeing of the star child and hence salvation of mankind

ryng_sting
26-09-2007, 17:35
Just to steer back on topic...

Cypher was aboard a prison shuttle to the Tower of Angels; when it arrived, it was empty. His mysterious patron, it would seem, snatched him away yet again.

MadDoc
27-09-2007, 11:17
This(about the sword and Terra) is not fan speculation...It is in official fluff for Cypher, Maddoc.

Where (outside of disparate sources used by some to make selective interpretations) in official fluff is it mentioned in official canon? Name your source(s) (provided that any multiple sources you provide bare actual relevance to one another), chances are I have it(them) sitting around (or boxed up within reach) so shouldn't be hard to check. You provide actual cohesive evidence and then we can talk.


Just because you don't like it does not mean it is not true....

I think from the reactionary tone in that post, thats more your problem than mine.

reds8n
27-09-2007, 13:02
In Descent of Angels the Order on Caliban have an honorific position called Lord Cypher, his real name is always disregarded and he is responsible for maintaining the customs and traditions of the Order.

Throwing my tuppence in my interperatation braodly agrees with Mr. Dante's, although I wonder if perhaps the theory that there are in fact multiple Cyphers as it is a convieniant cover for the Da to enact their nefarious plans.

Eulenspiegel
27-09-2007, 14:20
In Descent of Angels the Order on Caliban have an honorific position called Lord Cypher, (...)
I had wanted to read that book, you know ... :eyebrows:

reds8n
27-09-2007, 14:25
It's not the same guy, and I assure you I haven't spolit it for you.

Progena
27-09-2007, 14:26
I had wanted to read that book, you know ... :eyebrows:

...but it's not really a big spoiler. Thought I don't wanna be told anything about Descent either since I don't live in the UK and have to wait untill October to get it, one month after the brits, even though GW and BL said that it would be released at the same time world wide. :(

And I'm not the kind of guy who can ignore something that says "Spoiler" on it.

Eulenspiegel
27-09-2007, 14:27
I sure hope so ... well then never mind ;)

Art Is Resistance
27-09-2007, 14:41
It's not the same guy, and I assure you I haven't spolit it for you.

Nope, but you've spoilt it for those of us who are only a third of the way through.

Sheesh - will people never learn? :mad:

HiveFleetEzekial
27-09-2007, 17:18
In Descent of Angels the Order on Caliban have an honorific position called Lord Cypher, his real name is always disregarded and he is responsible for maintaining the customs and traditions of the Order.


That should really be tagged with a spoiler allert! The book's not even officially out yet for one, so there's no " 'everyone' should have read it by now!". You'd be suprised, the tiniest thing can effectively 'ruin' a story for some people.

Myself for instance... Generally I don't care on most things. I've got friends that have gone through the most recent two books of the (non-40k related) Sword of Truth series, and have skirted allot of things, but I knew it would be forever till I cought up with them.. so I'd not remember most of it by the time I got to it.

However, *this* on the other hand, kinda throws a wrench into *my* army. Playing the DoC now (old core DA are getting a rest), and their mysterious background and purpose seems to tie in even more with what's going on in the book. Puts what JJ had planned for the DoC in a different light than what they originally seemed to be.. which isn't what I was playing them as.

I'll still play them, but that's going to put a downer on allot of the games for me, until I read the whole thing to get all the specifics and maybe get rid of that downer. I.E. I'm a fluff junky, when it comes to "my" armies (I play for fun, not only to win.. even though I do my fair share of that too :D ). Fluff junkies -and there's tons of'm here- dgeneraly don't like even tiny spoilers on things they haven't yet read.

reds8n
27-09-2007, 18:39
Nope, but you've spoilt it for those of us who are only a third of the way through.

Sheesh - will people never learn? :mad:

If you're a third of the way through then you'd already know it's not the same bloke as he's an elderly man in his late 50s or greater. Unless you're really thick there's no way in hell you could even think THIS Cypher is the same guy.

Any "spoilage" people are bleating about is ridiculous, the character is listed amongst the cast list at the start of the book.

I've said nothing about what happens.... as you'll find out.
:angel:

LexxBomb
27-09-2007, 18:43
and who says that cypher cant be a common name amongst a kegion in which every one is named after a biblical angel

Argastes
27-09-2007, 19:20
This(about the sword and Terra) is not fan speculation...It is in official fluff for Cypher, Maddoc. Just because you don't like it does not mean it is not true....

No, it's not; it's a fan theory pieced together from disparate sources. Maddoc has explained his reasoning pretty clearly, and I'm frankly shocked that people still seem to be missing his point, but let me see if I can make it clearer:

Fact #1: In the 2nd edition Chaos codex, it is mentioned that Cypher seems to heading towards Terra and may carry the Lion Sword.

Fact #2: In the 3rd edition Chaos codex, it is claimed by an interrogated Fallen Dark Angel that Cypher will be the savior of the Fallen, and that they will be forgiven when the sword is reforged.

Okay, firstly, any 2nd edition sources are, by now, hard to consider reliable. If I sat down and combed through all my 2E codices plus the 2E rulebook and Codex Imperalis, writing down every piece of fluff that no longer holds true, I'd probably wind up with twenty pages of the stuff. So the idea that he's headed for Earth is by no means concrete, and as has been pointed out, his appearance in EoT (which is much more recent than the 2E Chaos codex and thus assumes greater validity) seems to disprove this. Now who knows, maybe he is headed for Earth; but the evidence for that is pretty outdated and unreliable, so that theory is no more valid than any other theory about his destination--if he even has one.

Secondly, the words of the interrogated Fallen are, to my mind, highly questionable. For one thing, he's only relating what he was told by Cypher--we have no way to know whether or not Cypher might have deceived, misled, or manipulated him. For another thing, the idea that the Fallen will 'automatically' be forgiven for their crimes when a broken sword is fixed seems ludicrous. Fixing a broken sword doesn't fix what was really broken by the betrayal of the Fallen: The honor of the Dark Angels and the integrity of their Chapter's loyalty. The broken sword is symbolic of the Chapter's besmirched honor. The real problem of the Unforgiven is that the Chapter is figuratively broken, not that the sword is literally broken. So it seems unreasonable not to assume that all this talk of "reforging the Lion Sword" is in fact metaphorical or symbolic. Now, it does seem that Cypher carries the actual Lion Sword, so presumably the literal reforging of the sword will accompany/herald/signify the figurative mending of the DA Chapter, but just physically repairing the Lion Sword can't be the whole story. If you believe that it is, that a repaired Lion Sword = forgiven Fallen, then I think you're overlooking the heavy symbolism and subtext here (not to mention believing something that doesn't make much sense).

Thirdly, even assuming that he really is headed to Terra, and really can secure the forgiveness of the Fallen with a reforged Lion Sword, there's no reason to assume that the two are connected--especially since the two pieces of background come from completely disparate sources with an edition change between them. Perhaps he is headed to Earth for reasons completely unconnected to the Lion Sword and the forgiveness of the Fallen--we simply do not know, and any connection between the two concepts ("headed to Terra" and "will reforge the Lion Sword so that Fallen are forgiven") is utter conjecture with no support in the fluff. The proponents of this theory admit that it's not conclusively proven true, but insist that it is somehow still "credible" or "persuasive"--I don't think so. It's not any more "credible" or "persuasive" than any other random theory arrived at by conflating disparate mentions of the same character. The fluff itself contains absolutely nothing suggesting that Cypher's movement towards Earth, and the belief of the Fallen that he will secure forgiveness for them by reforging the Lion Sword, are connected in any way. I mean, I could develop the theory that Cypher is heading to Earth in order to turn three somersaults outside the doors of the Ecclesiarchal Palace, and that he plans to then head to Golgotha and reforge the Lion Sword with the help of the squats--with the two objectives being completely unconnected--and it would be just as "supported" by the official fluff as the theory that he's going to reforge the Lion Sword at the Golden Throne to secure forgiveness for the Fallen. Because ALL we know is that A). he's (maybe) heading for Earth, and B). he's (maybe) going to get the Lion Sword reforged, resulting in forgiveness for the Fallen. No other information, including any connection between A and B, is given to us.

Progena
27-09-2007, 21:02
and who says that cypher cant be a common name amongst a kegion in which every one is named after a biblical angel

To be more precise they're all named after demons (or fallen angels if you wish) of mostly Christian and Jewish tradition and demonology.

It's kinda funny to browse Wikipedias list of demons and spot the names of WHFB and WH40k characters. The name Lilith Hesperax is a mix between the demon names Lilith (mother of demons) and Lix Tetrax (wind demon).

Argastes
27-09-2007, 22:26
Lots of named Dark Angels are actually not named after fallen angels. Ezekiel is named after a human prophet from the old testament. Gideon (old master of the Ravenwing) gets his name from a Biblical judge. The names Gabriel and Azrael, in Christian mythology, both refer to non-fallen angels (Azrael is the angel of death, and Gabriel is of course God's messenger).

DantesInferno
28-09-2007, 00:31
Okay, firstly, any 2nd edition sources are, by now, hard to consider reliable. If I sat down and combed through all my 2E codices plus the 2E rulebook and Codex Imperalis, writing down every piece of fluff that no longer holds true, I'd probably wind up with twenty pages of the stuff. So the idea that he's headed for Earth is by no means concrete, and as has been pointed out, his appearance in EoT (which is much more recent than the 2E Chaos codex and thus assumes greater validity) seems to disprove this. Now who knows, maybe he is headed for Earth; but the evidence for that is pretty outdated and unreliable, so that theory is no more valid than any other theory about his destination--if he even has one.

The account in the 2nd ed Chaos Codex is repeated word for word in Cypher's Heroes and Villains article, published in WD around 270 or so. So no, it's not particularly out of date. There's certainly nothing which contradicts it in later background.

Cypher's appearance in the EoT before the 13th Black Crusade certainly doesn't. For a start, there are plenty of places in the Imperium which are further away from Terra than the Eye of Terror. Secondly, the 2nd ed Chaos Codex version only refers to a pattern which indicates that he's moving slowly toward Terra. Not that he's doing so unerringly (indeed, that would be odd, considering that his appearances are "seemingly random"). A pattern has room for outliers.


Secondly, the words of the interrogated Fallen are, to my mind, highly questionable. For one thing, he's only relating what he was told by Cypher--we have no way to know whether or not Cypher might have deceived, misled, or manipulated him.

Sure, the words of a Fallen under interrogation aren't completely reliable. However, the other Fallen Angels are going to be the only people in the 40k universe who spend any amount of time with Cypher, so if anyone's going to know what Cypher is up to, they've got a fairly good chance of being it. This Fallen in question claims to have followed Cypher and fought at his side.


For another thing, the idea that the Fallen will 'automatically' be forgiven for their crimes when a broken sword is fixed seems ludicrous. Fixing a broken sword doesn't fix what was really broken by the betrayal of the Fallen: The honor of the Dark Angels and the integrity of their Chapter's loyalty. The broken sword is symbolic of the Chapter's besmirched honor. The real problem of the Unforgiven is that the Chapter is figuratively broken, not that the sword is literally broken. So it seems unreasonable not to assume that all this talk of "reforging the Lion Sword" is in fact metaphorical or symbolic. Now, it does seem that Cypher carries the actual Lion Sword, so presumably the literal reforging of the sword will accompany/herald/signify the figurative mending of the DA Chapter, but just physically repairing the Lion Sword can't be the whole story. If you believe that it is, that a repaired Lion Sword = forgiven Fallen, then I think you're overlooking the heavy symbolism and subtext here (not to mention believing something that doesn't make much sense).

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the literal reforging of the Lion Sword is all that's required to redeem the Fallen. Indeed, Cypher could have done that at any point in the last 10 000 years. There are plenty of things which could happen on Terra with a reforged Lion Sword, though.


Thirdly, even assuming that he really is headed to Terra, and really can secure the forgiveness of the Fallen with a reforged Lion Sword, there's no reason to assume that the two are connected--especially since the two pieces of background come from completely disparate sources with an edition change between them. Perhaps he is headed to Earth for reasons completely unconnected to the Lion Sword and the forgiveness of the Fallen--we simply do not know, and any connection between the two concepts ("headed to Terra" and "will reforge the Lion Sword so that Fallen are forgiven") is utter conjecture with no support in the fluff.

The 2nd ed Chaos Codex version claims that Cypher may be the Fallen Angels' only hope at redemption. It then mentions two things: the fact that he's possibly heading slowly towards Terra, and the fact that he carries what appears to be the broken Lion Sword. If you put two and two together....

As for the fact that there's an edition gap between the two sources I provided earlier in the thread: Cypher is a fairly minor character in the 40k background. It's not like he was getting referred to all the time and I selectively picked these two sources. These are all the sources we get on him! And they all specifically promote this speculation about Cypher's mission.

LexxBomb
28-09-2007, 04:39
To be more precise they're all named after demons (or fallen angels if you wish) of mostly Christian and Jewish tradition and demonology.

It's kinda funny to browse Wikipedias list of demons and spot the names of WHFB and WH40k characters. The name Lilith Hesperax is a mix between the demon names Lilith (mother of demons) and Lix Tetrax (wind demon).

actually lilith is a reference to Adams first wife who later became a deamon.


Lots of named Dark Angels are actually not named after fallen angels. Ezekiel is named after a human prophet from the old testament. Gideon (old master of the Ravenwing) gets his name from a Biblical judge. The names Gabriel and Azrael, in Christian mythology, both refer to non-fallen angels (Azrael is the angel of death, and Gabriel is of course God's messenger).

Ezekiel and Gideon are also the names of two of the seraphins (higher order of angels).

and i think Naaman is a reference to a Sumerian heavenly being

destroyerlord
28-09-2007, 09:19
No body ever knows what cypher is really up to until he has already done it. That is the allure of his character. That and his charisma stat must be like, 10. And he has the whole Houdini thing going for him. It is likely he will resurface in the future, but post 13th crusade there is nothing more about him yet (that I know of).
All of the above makes him probably my favourite chaos character (except Abbadon, because he is Uber :P)

SOTIRIOS
28-09-2007, 11:08
No body ever knows what cypher is really up to until he has already done it. That is the allure of his character. That and his charisma stat must be like, 10. And he has the whole Houdini thing going for him. It is likely he will resurface in the future, but post 13th crusade there is nothing more about him yet (that I know of).
All of the above makes him probably my favourite chaos character (except Abbadon, because he is Uber :P)

If he is a chaos character at all...

Alucard13
29-09-2007, 18:55
yeah it would be like this
commisar: alright troops this is your new leader colonel YpherC haosC
trooper: he's ten feet tall and spits acid!
commisar: don't pick on him cause he's different!

you have just been sigged

destroyerlord
01-10-2007, 11:20
If he is a chaos character at all...

Well sure he has his own agendas, but the whole 'voice of emperor' thing and his alliance with Abbadon during the 13th black crusade at least makes him an ally of chaos. And most of the fluff about him suggests that it is doubtful he is trying to gain the forgiveness of the Emperor. He is too badass, and he seems to hate the 'still loyal' dark angels.

pookie
01-10-2007, 11:47
its not in my BT dex... your version is deffinatly from a DA slant and the BT version is from their PoV, hmmm, mite have to re read my Dex.... ( im full ov cold too so could just be me being 'Numb' ;)


HiveFleetEzekiel was not mistaken, it is in the Codex. Page 20, left side, roughly 1/3 of the way down under the title 998.M41 - Crusade of the Ophidium Gulf. He's also right about there being nothing more than the most tenuous of inferences that the Dark Angels are responisble for the disappearance of the Ophidium Gulf. In that regard, your suggestion that he's interpreting things from a biased DA perspective is incorrect.

i do stand corrected.

Although i still wont beleive the DA didnt have something to do with the BT disaperance, they would want to hide there shame against anyone, inc Marine Chapters.