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Guillius
19-09-2007, 21:44
In one of my gaming group’s latest battles the following scenario has come up:

Unit A is a fear causing unit with unit strength 20. Unit B is a normal unit with unit strength 10. Unit A charges Unit B. Unit B takes a fear check and pass. Therefore, the charge and combat are treated as normal per page 50 of the rulebook. However, Unit A wins combat resolution. Unit A’s player claims that Unit B will automatically lose the break test because Unit A is bigger and they are a fear causing unit. Unit B’s player claims that this is not true because a fear check was passed and the unit no longer “fears” the fear causing unit. Here is the rule from the book:

“Units in close combat automatically fail their break test if they are defeated by an enemy that they Fear and the combine unit strength of the units on the losing side is lower than the combined unit strength of all Fear-causing enemy units on the winning side. Note that an act of Insane Courage will keep such units in the fight though, so it is worth rolling the dice in the hope of a double 1!

If the Fear-causing enemy units do not have a higher unit strength, Break tests are taken as normal. See the Close combat section for details of combat results, Break tests, and fleeing troops.

Note that this rule applies whether the defeated units have previously passed any Fear tests or not.”

I find the last sentence interesting. It seems to indicate that it does not matter that they passed the initial fear check? However, the portion on the first sentence that says they automatically fail if they are defeated by an enemy they “fear”, makes it sound like they did NOT overcome their fear on their initial fear check. Any clarifications / thoughts?

theunwantedbeing
19-09-2007, 21:59
Unlike terror,you have to take a fear test on every oppertunity,not just the first.

So it doesnt matter if you passed the fear test when they charged you,you still run if they then beat you and outnumber you.

ZomboCom
19-09-2007, 22:09
Passing the initial check makes no difference to the combat result.

If yuou pass your fear test, you still fear them, you just manage to control it for a while. If you lose combat and are outnumbered by fear causers, you will flee unless you roll insane courage, whether or not you passed your initial fear test.

EvC
19-09-2007, 22:22
I find the last sentence interesting. It seems to indicate that it does not matter that they passed the initial fear check?

It does not "seem to indicate" that it does not matter, it says it outright. Player B was straight-up wrong, and the rules are totally clear on the matter, for once ;)

Kadrium
20-09-2007, 03:21
Its the stupid phrase "that they fear" that causes this problem. What that was intended to mean was the net result of fear and terror and any other factors.

Fear causing units "fear" terror causing units, weather or not you passed your fear check. If you are not fully immune to fear, and simply passed your fear check to take the charge, you are still affected by - that is, not immune to - the fear effect of the charging unit. You simply passed a fear test required to hold your ground.

warlord hack'a
20-09-2007, 11:12
and to be precise, unit B does not automatically lose their break test, they can still roll double one (as you quote from the rules) so you basically ALWAYS roll a break test when you lose combat, only when you lose combat from a fear causing enemy that outnumbers you will you fail on any roll but double 1..

huitzilopochtli
20-09-2007, 18:02
unless you manage snake eyes, get out the measuring tape and see how far they run.

T10
20-09-2007, 19:45
Its the stupid phrase "that they fear" that causes this problem.

There is no problem:

Normal units fear units that cause Fear and they fear and are are terrified by units that cause Terror. Fear-causing units fear units that cause Terror.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
20-09-2007, 20:14
Unit B’s player claims that this is not true because a fear check was passed and the unit no longer “fears” the fear causing unit. Here is the rule from the book:

I find the last sentence interesting. It seems to indicate that it does not matter that they passed the initial fear check? However, the portion on the first sentence that says they automatically fail if they are defeated by an enemy they “fear”, makes it sound like they did NOT overcome their fear on their initial fear check. Any clarifications / thoughts?

Hello and welcome Guiliius.

It is indeed incomprehensible, that a unit that passes its Fear test does not overcome its Fear for the rest of the battle whereas a unit that passes its Terror test overcomes its Terror and it is henceforth muted into Fear.

That unfortunately is the way the rules are written. The rules writers do try to 'represent' reality; an exercise in futility as this is after all a Fantasy game where time stops between turns.

Kadrium
20-09-2007, 20:15
There is no problem:

Normal units fear units that cause Fear and they fear and are are terrified by units that cause Terror. Fear-causing units fear units that cause Terror.

-T10

Oh don't get me wrong, the phrase "that they fear" is indeed accurate, and makes sense if you're interpreting it correctly. Unfortunately, many people make that assumption that if you pass your fear check you have "overcome" your fear and are no longer afraid, or that unit's fear no longer applies to you.

My point was simply that the phrase they used wasn't chosen too well and is too open to misunderstanding.

WLBjork
21-09-2007, 10:05
There's also the case of Gobbos Fearing Elves, but Elves don't cause Fear (in general).

Thommy H
21-09-2007, 10:55
It is indeed incomprehensible, that a unit that passes its Fear test does not overcome its Fear for the rest of the battle whereas a unit that passes its Terror test overcomes its Terror and it is henceforth muted into Fear.


Why is that incomprehensible? Terror is a one-time effect based on the initial shock and horror of seeing something truly monstrous. Once you've got past it and steeled yourself against it you're not going to just bolt as soon as it gets too close, but it is still scary, which is what Fear represents.

More to the point, Terror is just "Fear with a couple of extra effects" so it isn't like you overcome Terror and suddenly a completely new rule applies to you: it's the same basic thing. Terror would just be hugely powerful if you couldn't overcome it somehow, since you only have to get near to an enemy unit to force a Ld test. Imagine being able to do that to the same unit over and over again every single turn just by bouncing your Terror-causing monster around...