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feintstar
20-09-2007, 05:57
Well, admittedly, I don't have full access to the rules of the new Army Book, but from what I have seen, (which is the army list plus the armoury, just not the magic or the special rules section) I'm presented with a real quandry in terms of how to take advantage of them.

For instance, the Caledorian Dragon Mage is an awesome addition from a fluff and look perspective, but a hero on a dragon who can't take armour of any variety, yet has two attacks, and only 50 points for wargear, but the dragon only has a S2 Breath weapon, leaves you with this real exasperated question - how the heck am I supposed to use this guy? He can do anything, poorly, but nothing well, and costs more than a whole 20 strong unit of elite infantry...

Likewise, with regard to those elite infantry - OK so I strike first when charged - awesome. But in following turns, I strike last with my Great weapons, so I need to break them on the charge (or on receiving the charge) or, lets face it, I'm in real trouble. And at the cost of these infantry, (and the fact that, if one doesn't get the charge, your opponent will decide the match - ups) this is actually quite an ask, seeing how one's static combat res is not going to be terribly high.

Also, with the abandonment of the Honours system, certain options are no longer possible - no more stubborn units of Spearmen turning their flank to the enemy. Likewise, no more seer council, and no more channelling mages. Which is a very significant hole in the armoury of the elvish magic user, without very much to fill it.

In addition, HE heroes, now as much as ever before, are not going to be able to face their opponents in straight match ups. True, they strike first when charged, but they don't quite have the punch to deal with anything in excess of a human warrior priest. Which means they're probably going to be exposed to extended combat, which in turn means they're probably going to die. Which is Ok, cos the elite infantry choices make up for their lack, but Elves' greatest enemy from hereonin will almost certainly be enemy combat heroes, who will laugh at the elvish first strike, and respond by killing enough rank and file to ensure that their charge doesn't bounce and run from those infantry, and then those expensive elves will have to run.

I guess that means that we HE are going to have to try really hard to stay out of combat with enemy heroes... How do we do that? Its a tricky one.


So overall, I feel it is a very balanced and interesting army book, probably up to scratch with other armies' capabilities. I'm not whinging, I truly feel that it would be much harder to face this army than to use it.

But I do feel that it truly is taxing my imagination on just how to get the best from this ruleset, and anyone else's inginuitive thoughts would be highly appreciated...

fubukii
20-09-2007, 07:34
If the rumors are true and swordmasters are getting a second attack and strike first and heroes can also strike first, i see a 7 wide unit of sword masters with a noble gettins 13 str 5 attacks at ws6, and 3 str 6 attacks from the commander at wpn skill 6 meaning 16 str attacks hitting on 3s even with only 7 of them or even 14 what other units bar Maybe Ironbreaker or hammerers or some other super Hard and or stubborn unit can hold vs these juggernauts?. VS your average unit of ws3/4 4+ save tough3 guys, you will be hitting with 9 attacks from the unit 2 from the hero doing 7.5 wounds from the unit and like 1.6 wounds from the commander, meaning you will do like 9-10 wounds before they get too attack! Im not sure what there is to complain about you just killed half the unit, their character will maybe kill 2-3 of your guys If their lucky, now you have your 10 kills a rank and maybe a banner or outnumber, They have 3 ranks, and maybe 2-3 kills so they at 8 you are at 12, they are losing by 4, i dont see what there is to complain about, and thats them charging you! Gor forbid a unit of clanrats flanks a 20 man swordmaster unit you get 8 attacks 3s to hit then 2s to wound, ill end up only winning (4 wounds, and banner for +5) by like 1-2 With a FLANK charge. Im not sure whats to complain about, except possibly that the dragon mage is pretty much worthless But then again every army has worthless units ;P

00mrfish00
20-09-2007, 18:56
All high elves will strike first except white lions. Swordmasters have 2 attacks and alway, always strike first. I've got the full army book and I'm damn sure.

fubukii
20-09-2007, 19:29
And there we have it a unit thats almost unbeatable in close combat, i hope my Warp lightnings go off >.<


Now that i think about it even khorne Knights with a hero will probably lose to that unit (9 hits six wounds, 3 die, then the hero kills one, 4 chaos knights of khorne die before they get to attack, keaving a hero and 1 knight left most likely) Granted if its a champion it will probably kill 2, and the hero will kill 3 ish., but now you have your 4 kills and outnumber, and next round of combat those knights are boned, the new hes will be GReatly better your just not seein how good swordmasters really are :)

00mrfish00
20-09-2007, 20:07
try this, 19 swordmasters including blade lord a war banner item + battle standard bearer with battle banner. Combat resolution = 3 for ranks + 2 for war banner + 1 for battle standard + D6 for battle banner + 12 possible kills. This unit costs nearly 500 points but can get a combat res of 24!

WageMage
20-09-2007, 20:26
That unit will never get its points back as it will be fed some expendable troops or shot to pieces.
Also hit'n run chariot(s) to weaken the unit and try to kill the BSB.

So powerful yes, but by no means game-breaking.

Ah well, I guess I'll finally have to order me some Jezzails and WLC's to go Dragon Prince and Dragon hunting eh.:angel:

00mrfish00
20-09-2007, 20:30
It's not game-breaking no (why would I want to break the game?) It is hard as **** though and won't be held up for more than a turn by most units. Combined with a shooty as hell army it'll work rather nicely for knight killing.

blurred
21-09-2007, 01:06
All high elves will strike first except white lions. Swordmasters have 2 attacks and alway, always strike first. I've got the full army book and I'm damn sure.

Wow! You've got the full army book. So tell us the names of all the magic items. :rolleyes:

I would definitely go for lots of spearelves and one unit of elite infantry; maybe a couple of bolt throwers to take care of big nasties. I'm pretty sure GW has reduced the power of magic with HE and boosted the power of infantry. The dragon mage sounds interesting, but I don't think he'll be that useful. Well, these are just my opinions. I'm waiting for the book to come out before judging. :)

feintstar
21-09-2007, 03:28
The magic items are all the same as before, with a couple of additions, if my version is up to scratch. Those additions aren't terribly exciting, and most of them fill up slots previously filled by the honours system - for instance, the White sword is a two handed weapon that grants plus 2 Strength and killing blow to be used by models on foot, and costs 40 points. The only addition of real note IMO is the Star Lance, which follows the rules for Imrik's lance IIRC, but of course would be vastly more surprising (and therefore devestating) when given to a Lord in a unit of Knights (or mounted lord in charging infantry for that matter, if you can arrange it).

So WL strike last and SMs always strike first according to you Mr Fish?
Interesting... My version is clearly a playtest variety, and I'm from Oz, so its probably older than what others are toying with around the world, but that does seem a significant departure from what my rules say, and I'm not sure that it seems entirely plausible given the points values I'm looking at. Nonetheless, I hope you're right, and we shall see...

Remember with regard to the aforementioned Swordmaster unit of doom, that you might be facng such nasties as Ogres - a Friend of Mine regularly uses 4 or 5 x 2 - wide Ogre Units with Great weapons, Led by Ogre Heroes and Lords. That same 18 strong swordmaster unit might kill 2 Ogres. But then the response will be a devestating hammering by the remaining two, one of whom will be Ogre heroic, and Brutal. Then add the Bull charge. Even swordmasters can't hack those multiwound units with impunity. Perhaps they will wipe each other out over the course of the combat?

Btw i was thinking about the Dragon Mage, and thought of the way he should probably be used - alongside an Archmage on a similar dragon of course! And he should be equipped with the seer staff as standard, meaning he will always, always, always have the flaming sword of Rhuin. Then, when up against significant magic defence, Both Mage/Dragons' top priority will be mage hunting, and thereafter, (if they live) they will lay the smack down during the magic phase, and Pwn whole units using their flaming swords. That's how they should be used, and Woe to those who oppose Caledor!

Neknoh
21-09-2007, 18:42
As far as rumour goes, the dragon mage actually AUTOMATICALLY gets the spell Flaming Sword

aenarion67
29-09-2007, 01:34
how did u guys get the army book early?

therisnosaurus
29-09-2007, 09:09
my thoughts on the dragon mage:

while not a hugely powerful individual, he will be a useful addition to most armies. lots of wounds and a high toughness on the dragon means they won't get those points easily, so from that perspective he's quite worth it from a points denial perspective (especially if you have to take half the wounds off the model as a whole to get your half points). Secondly, the auto pick of FSOR means that, used correctly, he won't be half a slouch in combat either. The ability to negate ranks and the dragon's 5 attacks mean he'll be brilliant for putting the fear of god into horde/t3 armies, swung round their flank. Terror doesn't hurt that any.

However, the BIG advantage of this guy is the free dice he generates. My plan is to field him with the silver wand and cast three spells (fireball, flaming sword and one of the 8+ ones) every turn on one dice, to get the max bonus from those free dice. This leaves my other mage (with the JoD) with one so he can also cast 2 spells on 2 dice (probably the 5+ ward on one of my key untis and drain magic to finish off the phase). This makes for 5 spells cast on 2 dice (with a very good chance of going off) and one bound spell (ring of fury) In a perfect scenario, the dragon mage could rip out 5d6 str 4 hits and his sword in one turn (fireball, firey blast, ring of fury). So, magically, the dragon mage is worth every point, he can put out as much as an archmage without taking a lord slot, and lore of fire is one of the better lores.

tactically, the boy also provides you with something very important- a free lord slot. With the increased price of HE units and the continuing lack of anything cabable of handling knights, a prince is a must in most armies. leadership ten and the anti-armour attacks he can provide when kitted right can turn a spearman or seaguard unit into an almost impenetrable defensive unit, and also allows his leadership bubble to be where it is most needed (and pure of heart, if that's still there) rather than being off gallivanting on a star dragon.

This is my current projected character loadout:

Prince: sacred incense, amulet of flame, blade of sea gold or the white sword (probably the former)

Dragon mage: level 2, silver wand, ring of fury

mage: level 2, jewel of the dusk.


This set of characters means I can dominate the magic phase, protect my elite infantry units very effectively (my plan is to stick the prince and mage in a unit of 26 seaguard with a warbanner. stick em on a hill and you got a unit that's -1 to be hit by shooting, -3 casting penalty for magic, 5+ save and 5+ wardsave, 14 bowshots each turn and a static CR of 8 90% of the time. To stand a chance of winning, your opponent HAS to go for it, and it WILL not shift even against things like khorne knights (which have to deal with mr Mcsundragon flanking them or getting baited by other stuff as well :D) ) and generaly make life miserable for anyone.

so, summary:

Pros-
-excellent choice magically, with the right combos will guarantee domination of the magic phase against a similar number of wizards, and provide a fighting chance even against 4 mage armies.
-doesn't eat your lord choice, allowing you to keep your general where he's needed
-Gives you a terror causing flyer for a lot cheaper than normal
- fire lore and breath weapon is brilliant for decimating horde armies, to make up for some of that numeric deficit you'll be incuring
- psychologically a good weapon (nobody likes seeing their opponent slap down a dragon)
-durable against minor threats and attacks, difficult to get rid of without concerted effort, meaning points are safe

cons:
-very expensive for a hero choice and means you'll probably have to skimp on other characters if you want a good number of troops.
- fragile against massed shooting as the large target effect and lack of armor on your rider means those lucky 5-6 rolls will kill the mage very quickly, losing you the most powerful aspect of the dragon- his rider and the magical superiority he gives
-cannot crack elite units, whether they be shooting or close combat. Against heavy shooting armies, will probably have to spend the game cover hopping and avoiding becoming a pincushion as opposed to the more durable star dragon with prince.

therisnosaurus
29-09-2007, 09:45
sorry, about the double post, but I figure this deserves one of its own. I'd like some comments on the list I'm dreaming up, being thus:

Heroes:
Prince: heavy armor, enchanted shield, blade of sea gold, sacred incense, amulet of purifying flame

Dragon mage: level 2, silver wand, ring of fury

Mage: jewel of the dusk:

Core:

26 lothern seaguard, shields, warbanner (if they can take a magic standard now)

10 lothern seaguard

Special:

16 white lions: full command, lion banner

lion chariot

lion chariot

5 dragon princes (chracian princes): standard

this, with a little tweaking will be about 2000 points. For the extra 250 in 2250 pointers, add a couple of bolt throwers and two more seaguard and a standard to the small seaguard unit.

I'd love comments on the army, it's a very small, tightknit list designed to have both devastating defensive (lions and big seaguard unit) and offensive (flanking with chariots, princes and dragon) potential. Points denial is the name of the game, with most of my points in two night untouchable places- the prince, mage and big unit of seaguard and the dragon mage. the white lions will also be a tough gig to cut down with their stubborness and insane damage potential. If I'm lucky enough to have a wood in my deployment zone or nearby, the lions will go slap bang in it making them a very tough target for missiles. against template weapons, both my big units will deploy in two ranks, to prevent any juicy lobshots, and allow them to deal more damage against wide frontages (or re-form in the turn preceeding a charge if nessecary)

Neknoh
29-09-2007, 09:53
Why White Lions in a unit of 16 rather than 14 or 18?

And why White Lions instead of Swordmasters?

therisnosaurus
29-09-2007, 10:01
chracian army :). the 16 strong unit size is so 1) they can max width against cavalry and 25mm infantry bases and secondly because of how I intend to make the unit. I'm going to be getting about eight of the new chariots- which means 16 of the PLASTIC WHITE LION CREW. Who says we ain't getting plastic white lions :P. The whole army is based around chrace- the characters will be modeled up with lion cloaks and so forth, the dragon princes will be using the unbarded chariot horses modeled with lion-hide barding and great-axe toting riders. Everything will be chracian lookin...

lector#1
29-09-2007, 10:06
well im going to be fielding tyrion just because of the fact that he is alot more harder to kill than a normal prince i might make a prince on griffon with the star lancedragon armor and other equiptment but i would prefer tyrion because he can join a unit of either 9 silver helms or a unit of 6 dragon princes and would be able to kill more in my oppionion

therisnosaurus
29-09-2007, 10:13
the thing with tyrion is he's a massive investment. He may be durable, but that doesn't help any when his unit gets flanked and he runs off and dies without ever landing a blow. When you consider for the same points cost as tyrion you can get twenty (yes twenty) dragon princes, arguably now one of the best heavy cavs in the game, just below chosen and grail knights, he starts looking awfully pricey. I'm increasingly of the opinion to use HE cavalry without heroes, and to put your characters in defensive units where their LD and ASF rule is most advantageous. Dragon princes and silver helms DON'T NEED a 600 point killing machine in their ranks to be killy, spearmen and seaguard do. a unit of 5 dragon princes and a sundragon mounted prince is far more worthwhile than tyrion.

Empyrium
29-09-2007, 10:41
Well, your list sounds like it would be a challenge to both play against and build all the models for. That being said, you should definitely post some pictures of it when you're done.
As for the list itself, if I see anything I would do differently, it would be the unit of 10 seagaurd. The problem is if your goal is point denial, that unit is too... inefficient. The size is too small to make use of the fight in 3 ranks you pay for, and without shields, you dont benefit from an improved armor save either. What you're left with is a unit that has worse range then archers, laughable protection, and not enough models to make full use of the rules you pay for. I'd either add shields for the added survivability, add more models (by which i mean at least 5) to bolster its effectiveness, or drop them altogether and take archers instead (fluff wise, i doubt that they get out of fighting just because they haven't killed a white lion yet).
Not sure on the exact point totals though, so I don't know which options are actually available.

grickherder
29-09-2007, 10:45
I wonder how many white lion crew will be available and for white price from thewarstore.com's bit service or on eBay. It might work like it does for tomb king players making their heavily armed guys out of the chariot riders parts.

aenarion67
29-09-2007, 11:12
whats new about tyrion???

lector#1
29-09-2007, 11:23
:Dall i know is he lost the curse he has gained first strike and lost revive for regeneration and his horse is no longer monster counted:D

DeathlessDraich
29-09-2007, 14:24
Judging from the various rumours:

1) An army book with more embellishments of old ideas rather than exciting new ones.

2) There could have been more new units never seen before or more interesting new special abilities.

3) The same problem of a small army without a viable MSU option. A 2000 pt HE army looks small and will still look small with this new edition. Some cheap troops should have been included for a good balance.

4) The lack of a good solid theme for HE still exists. Compared with the lovely themes in Tomb Kings, Wood Elves and Skaven, High Elves used to be a hotchpotch of bland ideas and still will be.

5) There has been a great deal of discussion on Swordmasters and Dragons. Both introductions are generous but will generate more combat orientated HE armies. 3 Dragons in a 2000pt army will be on par with the Empire double STank and WarAltar combo. I'm in favour of both.

Overall, it seems like a thumbs down but I hope when there will be a few pleasant surprises when I finally read the book.

Boneknight
29-09-2007, 19:13
THerinosaurus or whatever your list has only 2 cores? And if it is chrace why do you have seaguard and dragon mage?

What are the differences between dragons? What are they, just star dragons and sundragons? How are thwy different?

Empyrium
29-09-2007, 21:51
@ DeathlessDraich

1) I wouldn't know... I only started HE in 6th edition, but it seems that it more like those that only needed a small boost such as white lions got that boost, while others were reworked a bit more, such as phoenix gaurd.
2) you mean like the lion chariot, the dragon mage and ASF? That being said, there are 1) only so many slots in the game... what I mean is that our rare choices are already pretty good, no one ever used the phoenix guard or white lions because the RBT and eagles were so much better choices. Anything you add there has to compete with those, and if it isnt at least as good as them, then it will never be taken. Our hero's section just received a new addition, but it still has your basic combat general and magic overlord still, so not much new needed there. And our core, well, even though silver helms have been moved to special to discourage all calvary armies, we still have some good basic infantry, some ranged archers, and some seaguard which can be both. As far as core goes, thats pretty much all we'll need anyways. My point is that any new unit additions will likely become special units. The problem with that is that if you count the lion chariot and tironic chariot as two seperate choices, HE now has 9 special choices to choose from, and the 0-1 selection thing looks like it has been removed too. And 2) there are also only so many special rules that you can have in the game as well. I mean, so many special rules that are actually feasible. If you saw the one rumor confirmation page that confirmed ASF, and saw how many people were complaining about it, could you imagine what would happen if they introduced an even more powerful army wide rule? What if Brettonian lance formations caused impact hits, or every model auto hit on the charge (a la silver lance)? What about orcs where each model in the front rank gets one more attack for each rank behind them? Entire armies with the regeneration rule? The point here is that most of the new rules you can come up with would be extremely overpowering.
3) Our spearmen have become decently cheap(er) now, it just that you'll have to take at least 15 of them per unit to really get the most out of what you pay for.
4) Well, with the removal of the 0-1 unit limitations, a theme is certainly possible now, but would require a lot of converting. therisnosaurus is making a charce themed army, and it wouldn't be too much harder to make ones from any of the other provinces. You might even go so far as to have some "counts as" type things (charcen princes instead of dragon princes), but themed armies are far from impossible.
5) Well, our magic hardly needs a boost, and RBTs give us some decent shooting, so hth was where we needed help the most. That being said, dragons take up a hero slot each, so you cant have more then 2 in a 2000 points game, and even then, thats with no additional characters from their riders
All that said, I too hope for a few more surprises from the book, particularly in the magic items and armors sections.

@ Boneknight
rumors have that HE dont need to take as many mandatory core choices and get bonus special slots. We are also get bonus rare slots, but with all the 2 for 1 things gone, you wont notice much of a difference. There are 3 dragons, Sun, Moon, and Star. The main differences are the S of the breath weapon, as well as the S, W, A, and I of the dragons themselves (as well as points costs, of course). There might also be a difference in the scaley save they get, but nothing has been said on that yet. Moon dragons are about the same as what the HE get right now, the Sun dragons are weaker, and the Star ones are stronger.

Boneknight
29-09-2007, 22:41
We get bonus special slots, yes! now I can take two chariots and still take my old favorites like silverhelms, dragon princes, and shadow warriors. My 6shadow warriors once took out a vc general in the first turn

therisnosaurus
30-09-2007, 00:38
1) An army book with more embellishments of old ideas rather than exciting new ones.

2) There could have been more new units never seen before or more interesting new special abilities.

3) The same problem of a small army without a viable MSU option. A 2000 pt HE army looks small and will still look small with this new edition. Some cheap troops should have been included for a good balance.

4) The lack of a good solid theme for HE still exists. Compared with the lovely themes in Tomb Kings, Wood Elves and Skaven, High Elves used to be a hotchpotch of bland ideas and still will be.

5) There has been a great deal of discussion on Swordmasters and Dragons. Both introductions are generous but will generate more combat orientated HE armies. 3 Dragons in a 2000pt army will be on par with the Empire double STank and WarAltar combo. I'm in favour of both.

This thread is for tactical and actual gameplay discussion, not aesthetics, please, there are about a hundred and one other threads for that. I'm not sure what you're not happy with about new units- you got two, which is more than most armies undergoing a rehash (those being lion chariots and the dragon mage). I agree with you to some extent on the theme thing, but with the removal of all those bloody 0-1 restrictions theming is now a lot easier, not to mention white lion chariots for chrace and extra dragons for caledor... Finally, a 3 dragon 2000 point army is still not possible (all dragons take an extra hero choice, so the max is two, apparently). If you've got thoughts on how you'll play the new list and so forth, feel free to put them here, but PLEASE keep the other stuff elsewhere

@ bone knights: remember that apparently nothing is 2-for-1 any more, and two of the rare units (PG and WL) are special now, so you'll have a LOT of competition for those 6 special slots. EVERY he unit barring your spearmen, archers, seaguard, eagles and bolt throwers are special now.

As for my choices: well, it's a choice between spearmen, archers and seaguard for the core. I like versatility in my core blocks, and seaguard are no worse choice than either of the others from a theme perspective. as with all my armies they will be converted to fit in with the chracian theme and be given a more suitable working name like 'house guard' or something. The dragon princes will be chracian nobles, with lion cloaks and big axes riding steeds barded with lion pelts and all that. So again, DP as far as rules are concerned, but look nothing like them...

SpeedyGoat
30-09-2007, 00:50
so does the ASF rule only count when getting charged?

Is the second round of combat based on initiative?

and do SM still strike in initiative order with their GWs?

therisnosaurus
30-09-2007, 03:08
@ Speedygoat: THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT PLACE.


@ everyone: PLEASE, this is the fantasy tactics forum. If you don't know rules, don't ask here (fantasy rules, or just read the rumour threads, all the answers are there. It takes time, but don't expect people to answer questions when the answers are in about twenty different places all over the forums). I'm as interested to know the details of everything as anyone else, but this forum is for discussing how those changes you know about will affect your play, or new tactics, strats, combos whatever. I guess questioning a rule taken as granted is fine, but not just asking for them....


Sheesh, I hate to be the nazi round here but, really, is it THAT hard to get your topics right?

aenarion67
30-09-2007, 07:17
so whats a good option to give a prince??

therisnosaurus
30-09-2007, 08:49
depends on the job you want him doing. with ASF there's not so much of an onus on protection, as you can just give him a big killy weapon and he'll keep himself safe by slaughtering any models near him before they can strike back :P. Then again, nowadays there ain't really much point in getting a magic weapon- just buy a great weapon- +2 strength for 6pts. sure beats +2 strength and killing blow for 40 (the white sword). So you can really just invest all your points in talismans, bound spells, enchanted items et al to protect the unit he runs with .

Mounting him up I'd be inclined to go for a sun dragon. all the terror causing, rank breaking, light infantry toasting nastiness of a a dragon for probably a lot cheaper than star dragon. In this case though, you'll probably want to go for the vambraces of defence and best armor you can lay your hands on. alternatively, you can bung the chap on a great eagle and kit him out with sacred incense and the star lance- a flying character who can dish out 4 strength 7 no save hits on the charge and is -1 to be hit by shooting, plus a small base size. This build would really only be nasty in games of 3000 points plus when you can have another prince in your centre and be assured of armoured targets to pwn.

or, you could just go for the classic lancer lord, but with dragon princes as nasty as they are now, you really don't need characters in your cavalry units, they'll make enough of a mess of the opposition as it is :)

Empyrium
30-09-2007, 12:10
As therisnosaurus said, it really depends on what you want your prince to do. We are very spoiled for choices, so experiment around a bit. Once again, the plain mundane great sword is a great buy for your lords now, if their on foot at least. Several other weapons have also become more tempting, such as the blade of leaping gold.
If you find your opponent skimps on magic to take more cc oriented characters (as mine does), and plays a heavy armored army such as bretonians, then I find the Bow of Seafarer/Armor of Stars to be more then worth the points paid. Add in a few mages for magic dominance, and have one take seer and the healing spell, and you have a very annoying, nigh invincible mobile bolt thrower running around.
Another combo that has proven itself in such games is to give your prince the armor of protection, and the Gem of Hoeth. Take the lore of Beasts, and just take the default Bears anger spell. Its far from reliable, but if it works, your prince is about as close to a close combat monster as any pointy eared elf can get.
For more support oriented items, we have to have some of, if not the, best possible. The amulet of purifying flame and sacred incense provide some additional protection against magic and shooting respectively, and when push comes to shove, the loremasters cloak will make any unit you put your prince in all but immune to magic damage. For enemies that out magic you (since you didnt take the archmage), the null stone can help if you can close the distance fast enough, or will bring magically enhanced cc heroes down to your level. Also works great on slann. Turns them into the largest point sink you can imagine. Just make sure that the unit/prince is well supported and protected from flank charges.

Boneknight
30-09-2007, 14:14
In my opinion in a 2,000 pt game I would go with aprince on a gryphon with a star lance nad other stuff, but take the star lance. And therionsaurus IN my opinion a small unit of DP, a large unit of SH, SM, a pair of chariots, and 10 shadow warriors is a nice way to fill out my specials

lector#1
30-09-2007, 16:26
what im thinking of doing is going for a fast paced army so the tyrion army is just going to be filled with silver helms dragon princes and archers for the core and some bolt throwers to take out monsters or weaken their big units.

but now that im thinking about it if i choose to go dragon army i was thinking of going with about 30 archers, 2 bolt throwers, dragon mage(for support on my lord) foot mage for some extra anti magic a tough dragon lord (high point games probably imrik but my dragon lord would be armed with -

star lance(dont know points)
amulet of purifying flame
helm of fortune
dragon armor
shield
and then fill out my remaining points with great eagles as many as possible this way i get my mage, dragon lord and plenty of eagles to fly up the field and tear a whole in anything they come across with support fire from the mages, archers and bolt throwers

do you think the dragon list would work i was aiming for a get their asap,
so with tactical movements i can keep my expensive units alive and then depending on who gets first go, first or second turn most of my army is in combat and there for cant get shot at.

do you think this would be an effective list or should i stick with the knights and chariot army?

aenarion67
01-10-2007, 06:44
whats the biggest dragon???
and are there any good armours???

lector#1
01-10-2007, 07:33
what do you mean biggest dragon they are all the same thing imriks dragon is better than the normal dragons but if u mean phisical size i think it might be the new dragon lord/mage comming out

therisnosaurus
01-10-2007, 10:31
physically they're all the same size. in game terms, the power goes sun dragon, moon dragon, star dragon.

aenarion67
02-10-2007, 02:05
so is the star the 7 one?
and can dragon mages ride it?

Alathir
02-10-2007, 06:10
Therisnosaurus, I have always wanted to field a high elf infantry army but the 6th edition rules didn't really allow me to do such a thing without being steamrolled by anything stronger than a light breeze.

With these new rules however I think the potential for infantry heavy high elves is definitely there.

This is my vision and I would like your opinion on it. An ALL infantry list, with not a single mounted model. It would max out on Spearmen (I envision 3 blocks of 20-25) with a rock hard center of White Lions led by the BSB. I would have two small units of 10 Swordmasters to flank enemies that charged the larger blocks. I've toyed with the idea of replacing the white lions with a large block of Phoenix guard and maxing out on static combat res. and trying to autobreak opponents).

The Prince would also be on the front line somewhere... probably with the White Sword and a 5+ ward save (I also heard a rumor of their being a suit of magical armour that granted a 2+ armour save, is this true?)

It would be supported by two bolt throwers (maybe more depending on the opponent) and two mages.

I just love the imagery of this army and think it would look great on the field.

therisnosaurus
02-10-2007, 08:28
I also love the concept of a pure infantry HE army. It seems like a nice force, both solid offensively and defensively, however I think you need something that can silence enemy guns, or at least slow them down from nailing those fat elite infantry blocks. I'm right with you on the unit of lions as a centreguard, however, I'd suggest dropping the white sword on your prince, there really is no point. it's 6pts for a great weapon (+2 strength, two hands) or 40 for the white sword (+2 strength, two hands, killing blow). killing blow isn't really handy on something that is already strength 6, so I'd be inclined to bust your points on some antimagic or anti shooting. I'd be inclined to take a block of phoenix guard including your prince with a great weapon, sacred incense and some other stuff, and your white lions with a BSB and a mage nearby to cast the default 5+ ward save spell on them. That way you have a unit with a 5+4+ save that's -1 to be hit by shooting and one with a 3+/5+ save against shooting. field the lions in a unit of 21 in three ranks of 7 and the phoenix guard in a unit of 20ish 3 ranks of 6 and some spare. A couple of units of spearmen to hold your flanks, some archers and bolthrowers to silence guns and finally 4 odd small units (5-8) of swordmasters or white lions, I'd be inclined to go with the latter for the fact they are very resilient to shooting, they have the woodsmen rule and they're stubborn, which means that little unit of 5 can hold up an enemy anvil (you'll strike first and knock out most of their front line even if they charge you, leaving only characters to slowly whittle the unit down or untill you fail an unlucky ld) while the rest of your army sets up a flank, or you just ignore the buggers :P

Something like this:

prince

BSB (if you want to be a real dick, give him the battle banner. in the white lion unit that means a potential static CR of 9 from banners alone :D

mage with extra antimagic

mage with extra antimagic

21 spearmen

21 spearmen

10 archers

10 archers

21 white lions with warbanner

20 phoenix guard

7 white lions (hold the flank of one spear block)

7 white lions (hold the flank of the other spearblock)

5 swordmasters ( walk around slightly behind your two major units, possibly with one of the mages in it, ready to engage units that try and get around the sides of your hammer)

bolt thrower

bolt thrower

Alathir
02-10-2007, 10:14
Thanks for the comments! All very good insights into a list im very excited about.

About the White Sword... I think that it would be worth it. Many times I've had a character with a mundane weapon who has gone to work but been thwarted by demonic saves and the like and also... against scary characters like Vampires the potential to wipe them out in a single blow is very handy. But I do like the idea of giving him a setup aimed at supporting his unit and the army like you suggested, very cool imagery/fluff potential associated with that as well.

That Battle Standard Bearer with the Battle Banner (please say they renamed it...) is crazy! Potentially 13 static combat res. before any blows have been struck! Yikes.

happy_doctor
02-10-2007, 16:26
What is really disturbing about the new HE rules is that nowadays everyone seems to be planning the army list I used to play a year ago. (it was called "soft" in tournaments, until it started beating cavalry armies and the such...)

What I fielded (and will, in fact, continue fielding after the book comes out) was roughly:

2 x 21 spearmen (one of them with a war banner)
1 x 5 silverhelms
1 x 14 swordmasters (with the banner of sorcery)
1 x 14 white lions (with the lion standard and the blessed tome on the champion)
1 x 6 Dragon princes (with the banner of arcane warding and the helm of fortune on the champion)
2 x Tiranoc Chariots
2 x Great Eagles
Archmage with seer, dispel scroll, lvl4, jewel of the dusk, ring of corin.

It's an infantry-based army, with lots of capabilities and a really nice magic phase.. It seems that now it has become a bit overpowered what with all the ASF, double attacks on the SM and DP and the such..Still, I was there first :D

lector#1
02-10-2007, 17:00
do you guys think that a dragon based army or a mounted based army would work better i was thinking up 2 different lists one is

tyrion backed up by chariots silver helms and dragon princes so a total mounted army at about 2500-3000 and a couple of fire mages on horse and if i have spare points archers and bolt throwers would be the way for some ranged defence.

or a prince on a dragon with the starlance helm of fortune and amulate of purifying flame with a dragon mage back up great eagles and then back up archers bolt throwers and possibly white lions or sword master for some extra killiness in combat


also i was thinking of making a prince a level 1 mage with seer and helm of fortune give him flaming sowrd of rune and then if he gets it off he has 5 str 7 attacks on a horse do you think that would work ?

Boneknight
04-10-2007, 00:59
The dragon guy sounds like I guy sounds like something I posted? I think a mix would be best, take nothing to the extreme. That horse on sounds like another character posted in a different article. Go with the guy on horse, but take infrantry and cav.

kiron
05-10-2007, 19:01
all these potential army lists sound okay....that's it okay...people are just too rapped around this elite infantry sh**. The really stronger armies are STILL the calvary builds no matter how you look at it!

2 dragons where the dragon mage can die for all i care just give him 2 scrolls for some early defense. prince can be kitted out okay to make sure he lives. Then take whatever to fill your cheap core and that leaves you about 1100 points. Then take 4 units of 6 dragon princes all fully kitted plus some banners and 2 units of 5 cheap SH you got an army. Each single dragon prince unit of 6 by itself can break a fully ranked infantry unit plus 2 freaking dragons for support! Tell me how Elite infantry can beat that?

therisnosaurus
06-10-2007, 00:21
well, an elite infantry HE army would absolutely bitchslap that army... white lions- 21 white lions get hit by 6 princes (yes, I know the points are off, but hell, that's what'll happen :). If the lions win the rolloff for striking first, the lions get 8 attacks, 4 hit, 4 wound, 3 kill (2 on a bad round). Princes hit back with 7 attacks, 4 hit, 4 kill. Horses maybe knock off another for 5. Lions have outnumber and ranks and would probably hold even if they had a bad round and lost by one or two. next turn, lions continue to slap princes, princes can't do much....

same sort of thing happens when you charge phoenix guard or swordmasters. It's basically whoever wins the diceoff for striking first with a HE v HE army. Bolt throwers will probably take care of the dragon mage (a couple will get off maybe 12 shots, hitting on 2's, so 10 hits, 3 on the mage, average of 2 wounds. bye bye. and a dragon mounted prince, well, make sure he's stupid enough to charge the flank of a unit of white lions, they pass their stubborn test, slap a unit in HIS flank and presto, bye bye princeykins (especially if he was dumb enough to take the star lance :P). There's just not enough variety in an all cav and dragon army to take on units that can stop cavalry like stubborns and unbreakables, and you lose your points far too rapidly to lucky shots.

Personally, I still think the future for high elves is in combined arms forces, it's just now that the infantry part can actually do it's job- provide a REAL deterrent and threat that the enemy must address allowing your cavalry aspects to hit flanks and make a mess of support units... Pure infantry or pure cavalry don't take advantage of one of HE's most powerful aspects- lightning fast cavalry and now (finally) the best defensive infantry in the game. If you cripple yourself in one of those aspects, especially if you're actually TRYING to make a competitive list, I think you're being a tad foolish...

Chiungalla
07-10-2007, 13:57
If the lions win the rolloff for striking first

There will be no rolloff between dragon princes and white lions, because dragon princes will have a higher In (if they didn't change this too).

Same goes for swordmaster, but not for the phoenix guard.

therisnosaurus
08-10-2007, 01:15
hey, you're right. I thought that PG were the only guys with I6. my bad. princes eat swordmasters then (^^)

aenarion67
09-10-2007, 03:29
are dragon mages only good at killing small untis or can they take a full block of iron breakers?

AwkwardSilence
10-10-2007, 00:15
I have this question about the "Star Lance" is the rules the same as for when Imrik used it, or is armor saves always negated?

therisnosaurus
10-10-2007, 03:49
@ aenerion: not to sound rude, but you keep posting questions that are answered in MULTIPLE places around the forums. Have a read through the rumor roundup. Like I said earlier, this is a place for tactical debate, and you can't debate tactics if you don't know what your units do. It's been posted what dragon mages do, you know what ironbreakers do. What do you think the answer is?

I don't want to come off like a tool, but the trick here is read first, discuss and if you make a mistake, someone will correct you. Don't just keep asking questions because people will rapidly stop answering and start hunting you down with a chainsaw, m'kay?

@awkward:
again, not the right place, but I believe it is the same as for when imrik used it.

Duck Dodgers
12-10-2007, 22:05
I've seen lots of different builds here for armies (all infantry, all mounted, and mixed) but one item I haven't seen is anyone fielding Shadow Warriors. In other areas, I've had them recommended more than once for a 2000 pont army..

So, the question is... what kind of army should deploy Shadow Warriors? All Infantry, Combined, or maybe the rare foot set in an all mounted army? Or would you even use them in general?

Empyrium
13-10-2007, 01:04
So far, most of the non HE players seem to be saying is that they will be using lots of gunlines and chariots to counter threats like swordmasters... since they dont think they can be beaten in hth. With the likely increase in shooting that HE armies are going to face in mind, shadow warriors become more of a necessity then anything else IMHO. They have the unique ability to skirmish in an HE army, meaning that you can use them to screen your fragile units like swormasters, and if you add in a character with some support magic items, such as the sacred incense or the something with MR, you'll prolly be able to get your swordmasters to their target intact.
I think the only types of armie I wouldn't use them in are the themed calvary army (which I never run) or one where I know that shooting and magic isn't going to be a problem for me (i.e chaos).

therisnosaurus
13-10-2007, 01:18
I think the place for shadow warriors is in the HE gunline army. It would look something like this


mage

dragon mage

mage

15 seaguard

15 seaguard

8 shadow warriors

8 shadow warriors

8 shadow warriors

8 shadow warriors

8 shadow warriors

8 shadow warriors

bolthrowers to fill up remaining points.


in this sort of list you see shadow warriors taking over from archers. they are a little more expensive than archers but considering WE pay the more points for a scout archer without light armor, WS5 or hatred, it's a fairly good deal. as skirmishers all models in the unit can shoot and the unit can move and shoot in any direction with their longbows. HE's skills are in manoeverability and choosing targets, so any army should take advantage of these to be succesful, thus a HE gunline must be manoeverable, and must be able to pick its targets with impunity.

This army would play with the shadow warriors march blocking the enemy ASAP and focusing their first two or so turns of fire against small, soft units such as flyers, enemy skirmishers, missile troops and so forth, engaging them in combat if need be. Bolt throwers target enemy cavalry or hard infantry while the dragon runs around making a nusiance of itself and taking attention away from your shadows. Once whittled down, enemy are joint charged by dragon, sea guard and shadow warriors, who actually can dish out some serious pain even to moderately tough elites.

Duck Dodgers
13-10-2007, 16:00
I think the place for shadow warriors is in the HE gunline army. ...

That is an interesting list. I think it would be something for a more expienced HE (heck warhammer in general) play than I am. But I am keeping it in mind... just to catch people off guard later.

The general comments on using Shadow Warriors as screeners is a new tactic to me. However, the only skirmishers I've seen used have been skaven (particualrly a player of Storm of Chaos Clan Eshen), and they use their skirmishers very differently.

I'll have to keep this list in mind... It would drive that Eshen player mad, having someone use this against him...:evilgrin:

aenarion67
14-10-2007, 09:32
shadow warriors are great for harrasing people and anihillaing artillery crew.
only problem is the organ gun. but we have eagles.