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HughbertofKhorne
21-09-2007, 13:13
Is Chaos Undivided similar to the Four Great Powers, in that it posssesses something of a consciousness? essentially being the fifth power.

or when someone worships Chaos Undivided, are they just worshipping the Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh as a pantheon? (or is the pantheon a metaphorical thing, like a focus for the worship... or are the Chaos Gods really just a metaphor for the power Chaos Renegades draw from the warp?)

Ktotwf
21-09-2007, 13:15
Chaos Undivided means either that the 4 chaos gods are all aspects of the same "Chaos God" or that you worship all 4 of them equally, OR that you are willing to use the power of whatever God is convenient at the moment.

Hive Mind 33
21-09-2007, 13:21
[QUOTE=HughbertofKhorne;1933270]Is Chaos Undivided similar to the Four Great Powers, in that it posssesses something of a consciousness? essentially being the fifth power.

or when someone worships Chaos Undivided, are they just worshipping the Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh as a pantheon? (or is the pantheon a metaphorical thing, like a focus for the worship... or are the Chaos Gods really just a metaphor for the power Chaos Renegades draw from the warp?

It depends on the chapter some worship all of them as a pantheon, some worship chaos in general.

The pestilent 1
21-09-2007, 13:38
Or that you follow one of the other (Minor) warp powers.

The Guy
21-09-2007, 15:44
Like Wussal the god of love awwww hugs all round :angel:

DantesInferno
21-09-2007, 22:40
Is Chaos Undivided similar to the Four Great Powers, in that it posssesses something of a consciousness? essentially being the fifth power.

Depends, of course, to what extent you think that the Four Great Powers actually possess consciousness in the warp. If you're sceptical about that, then the answer's easy - Chaos Undivided is conscious to about the same extent.

I think the question of what sort of entities in the 40k are truly self-aware is a really fascinating one, and it ties in to exactly how literally you take some of the descriptions we get about Gods and the nature of belief.

I'd advise taking a look at <this thread> (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-background/102332-gork-n-mork-being-more-powerful-than-the-chaos-gods.html?highlight=chaos%20gods) (although it takes a bit of a while for the debate to get started) for some views on the matter.


or when someone worships Chaos Undivided, are they just worshipping the Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh as a pantheon? (or is the pantheon a metaphorical thing, like a focus for the worship... or are the Chaos Gods really just a metaphor for the power Chaos Renegades draw from the warp?)

Are the Chaos Gods really just a metaphor for the power that Chaos Renegades draw from the Warp? Very interesting question indeed! I'm inclined to answer "largely yes", though no doubt there are other posters here who would vehemently disagree. The debate largely centres around how literally you can take descriptions of the actions of the gods (ie "Khaine fought Slaanesh", "Tzeentch spoke to Magnus" etc).

Do you view the Chaos Gods as literal people living in the warp, or do you view them as abstractions assigned by humans to far more complicated processes?


Chaos Undivided means either that the 4 chaos gods are all aspects of the same "Chaos God" or that you worship all 4 of them equally, OR that you are willing to use the power of whatever God is convenient at the moment.

Yeah, though I'm not quite sure why "Chaos God" got quotation marks. "Others worship Chaos Undivided as a single entity. They perceive the various powers as merely aspects of one vast malevolent intelligence which mortals cannot hope to engage on any but the most basic level" (3.5 ed Chaos Codex, p38).

Savant
21-09-2007, 22:45
Like Wussal the god of love awwww hugs all round :angel:

Yeah, but as a Chaos God this would have to be taken to the extreme. Which I can only imagine involves Space Marines who hug people TO DEATH.

Supremearchmarshal
21-09-2007, 22:50
Is Chaos Undivided similar to the Four Great Powers, in that it posssesses something of a consciousness? essentially being the fifth power.

NO! Malal is the fifth power!:skull:

Seriously, like the others have said, Chaos Undivided is basically a catch-all for anyone who worships Chaos of some sort, but isn't dedicated to one of the four great powers.

codicium_aeternum
21-09-2007, 23:49
or for example abbadon, who is marked by all 4 chaos powers (something i believe is quite rare?) its chaos undivided (which btw, i thought was a bit of an oxymoron)

Lunk
22-09-2007, 06:10
Well, another option... What if you are not worthy enough to be noticed by one of the big 4, so you hold up your flag with the 8 pointed star, and pray that you do something worthy enough to be noticed. And if you fail, try, try again(and reroll your morale!)

Just my 2 cents.

Lunk

MutantMaggot
22-09-2007, 09:58
Yeah, but as a Chaos God this would have to be taken to the extreme. Which I can only imagine involves Space Marines who hug people TO DEATH.

Am I allowed to sig that?

As many people have already said, it depends on which way you believe. My CSM, for example, believe that chaos is a nameless power that feasts upon mortal worship, and has only one true follower, who is always plotting to destroy it -- Malal. They believe the BIG 4 are merely forms of this warp power that are created by mortals to allow better access to chaos. Also, they believe that things like visions are true, but created by close contact with chaos, not through the gods. Therefore they worship chaos, just in their own way. (And they honour possessed highly, for they have accessed the warp directly.)

BaronDG
22-09-2007, 12:26
Oh no, the four ruinous powers have all gained consciousness and highly developed personalities. They are not merely functions of the warp as a mirror to the human mind. Mighty, strange and mighty strange they are but still "people" living in the warp...

DantesInferno
22-09-2007, 22:21
Oh no, the four ruinous powers have all gained consciousness and highly developed personalities. They are not merely functions of the warp as a mirror to the human mind. Mighty, strange and mighty strange they are but still "people" living in the warp...

How do we know?

And if the Big Four have gained consciousness, how did they do so? If it was just through the worship of mortals, what makes them different from the Unnamed God of Chaos Undivided, which is also worshipped?

Progena
22-09-2007, 22:29
It's stated that the 'whirlpools' of the strongest ideas and emotions in the Realm of Chaos gained sentience in 'Liber Chaotica' (mostly WHFB background but it's prolly the same for 40k). The way this came about was described as something like that they just woke up one day and thought "Hey... I exist!" and as if that was the most natural thing in the world.

HughbertofKhorne
23-09-2007, 09:15
alright then. But this leads me almost nicely on to my next question.
(and dont hang me for this)

When thinking of the warp, would it be more accurate to think of a Force-like thing existing interwoven with reality or is it a serperate place entirely?

Supremearchmarshal
23-09-2007, 10:41
I'd say a bit of both- the Warp is another dimension, but it is also largely shaped by the thoughts and emotions of the inhabitants of "real" space, and it overlaps in some parts of real space permanently, and can do so almost anywhere on a temporary basis.

DantesInferno
23-09-2007, 11:04
It's stated that the 'whirlpools' of the strongest ideas and emotions in the Realm of Chaos gained sentience in 'Liber Chaotica' (mostly WHFB background but it's prolly the same for 40k). The way this came about was described as something like that they just woke up one day and thought "Hey... I exist!" and as if that was the most natural thing in the world.

This sounds like the sort of thing which would be very difficult to independently verify. If there is something out there that thinks "I am Khorne", it's certainly thinking on a level which would have to be pretty inconceivable from our point of view. Aren't the Liber Chaotica books written as a first person account? What consequences does that have on our interpretation of them?

But one interesting thing strikes me about this topic. Slaanesh, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle are powerful gods in the warp because they are fueled by emotion. Presumably their self-consciousness (if it exists) is produced by the worship they receive from mortals.

The god of Chaos Undivided, and the Emperor-god claimed to exist in the warp are different because, although they get a huge amount of worship to define their identities, they don't seem to have any signature emotion to fuel them.

Progena
23-09-2007, 12:39
This sounds like the sort of thing which would be very difficult to independently verify. If there is something out there that thinks "I am Khorne", it's certainly thinking on a level which would have to be pretty inconceivable from our point of view. Aren't the Liber Chaotica books written as a first person account? What consequences does that have on our interpretation of them?

But one interesting thing strikes me about this topic. Slaanesh, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle are powerful gods in the warp because they are fueled by emotion. Presumably their self-consciousness (if it exists) is produced by the worship they receive from mortals.

The god of Chaos Undivided, and the Emperor-god claimed to exist in the warp are different because, although they get a huge amount of worship to define their identities, they don't seem to have any signature emotion to fuel them.

Hey, I just wrote what was said in the book. And I don't think the Chaos Gods care as much for worship as for souls. Someone gets killed by a Khornate Champion, the dominant emotion at the time of their death would perhaps be hate, rage or fear? By a Slaaneshi, excruciating pain or pleasure perhaps? You die of one of Nurgles plagues you might feel despair. Tzeench... I dunno... "I hope I dont die" or rampant change? Tzeench is always tricky. Anyway, when you die your soul gets ripped apart and the individual components (emotions, beliefs and so on) gets absorbed by the appropriate 'whirlpool' unless you've sworn your soul to one of the powers of course, then your entire soul gets consumed by that power.

And the Emperors power may or may not come from the Astronomican. He's not completly dead, so it's plausible that he's still attached to his soul.

HughbertofKhorne
23-09-2007, 22:15
I thought the emotion for Undivided would have been greed, or greed for power or some such thing.

Supremearchmarshal
23-09-2007, 22:42
I thought the emotion for Undivided would have been greed, or greed for power or some such thing.

Well, aren't all the chaos gods tied to greed in some way? Like I said, Chaos Undivided is a very broad term, and it's impossible to tie it to just one emotion IMO.

mistformsquirrel
24-09-2007, 05:42
Yeah, but as a Chaos God this would have to be taken to the extreme. Which I can only imagine involves Space Marines who hug people TO DEATH.

HUGS FOR THE HUG GOD! *crush*

Shiakou
24-09-2007, 05:58
HUGS FOR THE HUG GOD! *crush*

KISSES FOR THE CUDDLE THRONE!

. . . You know what, I think we may actually have something here.

mistformsquirrel
24-09-2007, 06:02
KISSES FOR THE CUDDLE THRONE!

. . . You know what, I think we may actually have something here.

Indeed...

We must craft a new Chaos god! <o.@> One of huggles and snorgles and cuddles! AND DEATH HUGS!

HughbertofKhorne
24-09-2007, 12:05
I smell a new sig. lol

Cenyu
29-09-2007, 07:58
Make a start. Be the first champion of a new Chaos God. First deed would obviously be to rename yourself in "Hugbert".

Temmy
29-09-2007, 12:45
In the original Realm of Chaos books, it was hinted that all the powers of Chaos may be facets of a single entity.

MutantMaggot
29-09-2007, 14:29
... And in the BoC AB, that was also mentioned. I personally think it the most reasonable and best theory.