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sephiroth87
21-09-2007, 21:25
Ever wanted to know what the internet denizens of warseer are whining about? Well, me too. Mostly they whine about cheese, how they were beaten by "X" cheesy army, or even whether their own army list is cheesy. Personally, I like to get my lists where they smell a little of the old fromage, then dial it back a little. But for those who have never played them or just want to know how to build it, I present to you the complete, but not exhaustive list o'cheese.

Note to new players: I am tired of you asking (in a singsong girly voice) "I want to play the most powerful army. Tell me which one to play!" If all you're concerned about is playing the most powerful army, I'm going to be buying your entire army for 50 bucks in a year when you're bored with the game, just like I did with all my armies and after you spent 400 dollars buying it new. I am also not going to tell you what to play and I'm not going to try and convince you. You have an opinion of your own and you should use it. Also, many of these lists are not good for first time players, as they're fragile or based around finesse and movement. If you spend big money building these lists and you don't like them or you don't win, tough titty said the kitty....

For the record, high elf cheese has not been included since the new army book is approaching quickly. I have no doubt we'll see all sorts of flavors from them very soon...

CHEESE!!!

:cheese::cheese::cheese::cheese:

Bretonnian Royal Air Force (RAF): Lots of flyers… lord on pegasus, 3-4 units of pegasus knights, rest of points goes into errant knights and knights of the realm. One of the more infamous lists nowadays, the RAF relies on the tough, 2 wound pegasus knights choosing their targets with their flight moves. They can easily combine with regular knights to double and triple charge individual opponent units. The army applies a lot of force in a small area very quickly, giving less mobile armies no chance to redeploy or deal with them. The army is slightly powered down by the 7th edition rules (no more –1 to shooting Peg knights), but the army is still considered to be in the top tier of competitive Fantasy armies.

Bretonnian All-Cav: A slightly less well-known variety, the all-cav list relies on maxing out on cheap knights and mounted yeomen. Usually it includes 2 big realm knight units, a unit of grail knights, and lots of smaller knights errant units. The yeomen run in front of the big knight units, screening them from bolt throwers and magic, and then flee charges or attack war machines on the next turn. The knight units use the lance formation to gang up on non-stubborn infantry units, breaking them from the front and overrunning into the back of the opponent’s line. On the next turn, they turn around and set up another charge, doing this until the enemy is running off the table or dead. The army usually has significantly more models than the RAF, sometimes as many as 70 in a 2000 point list.

Wood Elf shooty army: 50 wood elf archers, 2 units of dryads, treekin, 2 treemen, Battle Standard Bearer to make the treemen reroll leadership. The shooty army from hell generally involves the 50 archers moving up and shooting, getting into the sweet spot range of 15’’ (so that they’re now strength 4 shots), and slowly backing up every turn while shooting. When they get close enough to charge, the archer unit flees. Then you get hit by 2 stranglerooting treemen, dryads, and a unit of treekin. The tree units beat on whatever charges while the archers shoot the slower stuff and continue to back up.

Treemonic Legion: Treeman Ancient for the Lord choice, Treeman, Battle Standard Bearer and Branchwraith, 5 units of 8 Dryads, 3 units of 3 Treekin. The Treemonic Legion (named after the Daemonic Legion) is famous for a slightly morally dubious tactic called “treesurfing.” Basically, your ancient and your branchwraith cast bound spells to move a tree base that the treemen are standing in. As the woods moves, so does the treemen. A player can potentially move and entire tree base full of treemen/ treekin around 9’’ per turn, so that the whole treemonic legion is suddenly standing right beside the opponent’s army. Dryads sneak through and flank units while the treemen move to the front of the tree base to use their strangleroot attacks. And if the player finally manages to charge one of the dual terror causing behemoths, the treeman will whomp on them with high strength attacks. He also has an armor save, ward save, and is stubborn on top of using the BSB to hold until the treekin or dryads get there to help out. However, a treeman will likely grind down even the toughest knight unit over a few turns. Two of them is just nasty, and the BSB is even uglier.

Skaven Shooty Army of Death (SAD): Warp lighting cannons, lots of clan rat units with ratling guns, multiple slave units, lots of jezzails, a gray seer, warlock engineers with warpstone (extra powerdice), occasionally a screaming bell. This is the infamous SAD army. It’s not as good as it used to be when ratling guns were nearly immune to being shot, but it’s still potent and hard to beat. The gray seer and fellow characters try to cast warp lightning and everything else shoots. The slaves sit at the front of the army, blocking the ratling guns until the enemy gets near. If anything charges, the skaven player simply starts shooting into combat and using the strength in numbers rule to keep from running. The army is usually deployed in a checkerboard pattern, so that if a unit gets front charged, another unit will try to flank the attacker on the next turn.

Strigoi Flying Circus: 1 jacked-up count and 2 or 3 thralls (possibly exchange one thrall for a necro) with bat form, dire bats, ghouls, Black Knights. This was the “flying circus” army before there was a Daemonic Legion flying circus. The Strigoi characters all make a unit and fly around behind the wolves, ghouls, and bats. The strigoi unit simply picks a target and unloads 15 attacks, likely breaking the unit and flying into another one to kill again. Everything else is just there to add a kill or two or cancel ranks.

Blood Dragon Knight Horde: Blood Dragon Count with sword of power, 1 or 2 necromancers (possibly 1 necro and a thrall), Wight Lord, 3 units of black knights, small ghoul units, lots of dire wolves. Dogs of War light cavalry to taste. This army operates very similarly to an All-Cavalry Bretonnian army, except that it’s tougher to combine charges with the black knights. However, the Blood Dragon character in the unit is an absolute monster and can win combats nearly on his own. The big units of black knights ride forward, fronted or flanked by light cavalry, bats, and wolves. The Black Knights plus Blood Dragon character are the absolute hammer in this army and you will live and die by them (live, mostly…).

Von Carstein Wolf Horde of Sylvania: Von Carstein Lord with wolf form and earthbind, 2 thralls with wolf form, 2 black coaches, multiple wolf units, fell bats, 2 units of Drakenhof Templars. The army is very reliant on speed and does not rely on units that have to be raised. The Lord and thralls have wolf form and run in units of wolves that hide behind the Drakenhof Templars and the fell bats. The templars front charge while the wolves and bats use their higher movement to get flank charges or wreck war machines. The characters inside the wolf units get a lot of attacks and boost the kill factor of the fast but mediocre wolf units. The black coaches use their large target status to move, pivot, and charge from behind other smaller units. Magic is provided by grave markers, the book of arkhan, and the 3 dice from the Lord.

Necrarch Summoning Horde: Jacked-up necrarch count, 3 level 2 necromancers, zombies and skeleton blocks with about 200 more zombie models sitting the box waiting to be summoned. The Necrarch Count is usually a level 3 caster. The magic usually consists of what VC players call the “zombie maze” tactic, which is to summon lots of different zombie units and place them at odd angles from the opponent, so that he can’t move around them and will get pulled in disadvantageous positions if he charges them. The list also relies heavily on the Vanhel’s Danse Macabre spell, which moves a unit 8’’ in the magic phase. With this much magic (and a bound spell that also does it), the Necrarch Horde is surprisingly mobile force that relies on using magic to get flank charges or keep summoning until the enemy has a bad round of combat loses while outnumbered.

Tzeentch Flying Circus (Daemonic Legion): Super Chicken (Greater Daemon of Tzeentch), minimum-sized Horror units (10-12 models), Multiple units of Screamers and/or Changebringers, Chariots of Tzeentch. One of the more famous lists at tournaments, the Flying Circus of Tzeentch is very, very fast and fairly resilient. The Super Chicken cancels ranks and causes terror, while everything else combines, casts bound spells, and flies over weak targets like mages.

15 PD Tzeentch Mortals/Daemons: Tzeentch Lord with staff of change and disk, 2 small units of horrors, multiple Tzeentch characters, Chariots with the mark of Tzeentch (for the powerdice), screamers, knights with banner of wrath. Not as mobile as some of the other power Tzeentch lists, but it’s one of the most reliable. It uses the bound spells of horrors and the banner of wrath to draw out dispel dice, then hammers them with the Exalted champs and the Tzeentch Lord’s heavy magic. Chariots and knights clean up the remains.

Tzeentch Dragonlord Army: Chaos Lord of Tzeentch on Dragon w/ Golden Eye of Tzeentch, multiple exalted champions of Tzeentch mounted in Chariots of Tzeentch, screamers. Not many units, but what’s there is powerful. The Tzeentch characters in chariots cast as they move forward, while the dragon absorbs fire with its armor save and 3+ ward. The screamers fly over mages, killing them and making the tzeentch magic even more dominant. An army that has to pick its targets to win, but a very powerful list.

Empire Gunline: Cannons, Mortars, Hellblaster Volley Gun, Handgunners, crossbowmen, knights, and mages. The magic and shooting are key here. Everything gets lots of armor piercing shots and the mages lend support with magic missiles. If everything goes to plan, you should have your units whittled down enough so that the knights run through what’s left of your army.

Empire Chariots of Sigmar: Arch Lector on War Altar, 2 Steam Tanks, handgunners, wizards, 2-3 cannons, small knight units. The Steam Tanks and War Altar are your heavy hitters here. The Stanks are war machines, which means they have to be destroyed to get any points out of them. Plus the War Altar, which gets a bundle of benefits for the points and can win combats on its own. Everything else just supports them as they grind the enemy units down.

The Thorek Gunline (Dwarves) Thorek Ironbrow, Runesmith, 2 Organ Guns, mixture of cannons/bolt throwers, thunderers and quarrelers, plus 1-2 units of warriors/hammerers. This list has been a staple lately at some of the big tournaments, even to the point of the Thorek character having his rules changed. Basically, everything hinges on Thorek, who can use the Ancient Power on a 3+ with a reroll with no line of sight. The heavy hitters have slower movement, which means the dwarves get to shoot for plenty of turns.

Dark Elf Cavalry/Magic Horde: High sorcereress on Pegasus, little sorcerers on horseback (or Dark Emissary if allowed), multiple small units of Dark Riders, Shades, and Harpies. The army centers around being fast and shooty. Everything moves and shoots, likely being able to march while shooting, too. If it goes to plan, you will never charge any of these units, they will pick their targets, and destroy your units one by one with their speed.

Dogs of War Pistol/Magic horde: tons of 7-8 man duelist units with pistols, lots of fast cavalry, single units of maneaters with pistols, Mage Lord (and assorted mages) plus Dark Emissary, Single Fenbeast units. If Dark Emissary or Fen Beasts not allowed, switch for Asarnil the Dragonlord or more magic. Everything shoots and runs. The Fen beasts tie up units and get healed by the dark emissary. The maneaters and duelists gang up on units and shoot them to death. The DoW player will flee charges, only to rush back in with other units, shooting them with pistols. The magic is also gnarly, with a level 4 mage, a level 3 mage, and 2 level 2 mages, all casting.

Orc and Goblin Pillbox: 8 spear chukkas, 2 doom divers, Skarsnik and Gobbla, 3 orc/goblin shamans, and 5 units of night goblins with maxed out fanatics. This strategy looks a lot like a dwarf deployment. Skarsnik pulls your units off the table while war machines set up on a hill. They’re surrounded by the night goblins. If you charge them, you walk into trap of 15 fanatics all flying around in a minefield. If not, they shoot you to death and advance forward slowly, throwing out fanatics as they go.

Southlands Skink Horde: 90 skinks with shortbows, 2 units of kroxigors, 2 units of salamanders, 5 level 2 skink shamans. The skink horde just moves up a little and unleashes over a 100 shots per turn. The skinks take care of the big stuff while the salamanders kill skirmishers and weak ranked units. Whatever is left after the barrage is charged by the kroxigors.

15 Powerdice Slaan army: 2nd generation slaan with extra spell and 2+ ward save, skink priest, tons of skinks, 2 salamander units. So many powerdice here. The slaan is of the machine-gun variety, taking all magic missile spells and throwing one dice at them, along with his free one. He’s usually guaranteed 5 successful spells with the plaque of tepok and just burns through them until the opponent runs out of dice. Then he throws out the big spells like the comet and conflagration of doom. The skink priest is there for line of sight purposes and just to add a little more insult to injury. Salamanders shoot the units that the Slaan can’t get to.

Tomb Kings Shooty Army of Death: Queen Khalida, 3 tomb liches, 50 archers, 2 tomb scorpions, casket of souls, and a big unit of tomb guard. Khalida automatically lets a unit shoot and the liche priests are doing the same with their reliable magic. Big toughness, small toughness, the tomb kings don’t care. They’re just looking to shoot 100 poison shots a turn.

Morghur’s Beastmen: Morghur, Multiple units of 5 chaos warhounds to fail leadership and become spawns. Other choices include ambushing beast herds and chariots. Morghur’s rules makes units around him take leaderships to avoid becoming spawns. Chaos hounds testing on a leadership 5 every turn means as much as 20 chaos spawns gribbling around the table.

Khazrak’s Beastmen: Khazrak and as many ambushing beastherds as you can fit in the list. Khazrak lets all the beasts ambush, which means that the whole army is likely ambushing behind enemy lines. Not as good with the new changes to Ambush in 7th edition, but still a very good list and Khazrak is very good in his own right.

The Superherd: 30-40 man Beastmen unit, along with maxed out characters. Usually includes Nurgle Beastlord, Tzeentch Wargor, upgraded Foe-Render, and Bray Shaman. The army also includes minimum screening units of dogs and beastmen, along with chariots and other heavy hitters like minotaurs. The entire strategy is centered around getting the superherd into combat, where the front line is completely made up of characters with big weapons (slaughterer's blade and sword of might are regulars) Since it's just a big skirmish unit, the army charges a unit and wins. If they don't win combat, they'll likely win in round 2 by a lot simply by grinding down the unit. If they do win, they chase and get charged in the next turn. However, when they get charged, all the beastmen characters can be placed in the unit where the beastmen player wants them, so the beastlord and wargor will be protecting the bray shaman and they'll all be swinging a ton of attacks at the rank and file, breaking that unit, too.

Beastmen Cow Army: Doombull, 6-7 units of Minotaurs with mark of Khorne and great weapons, multiple chaos hound units, unit of Dragon Ogres. This army is very similar to the ogres, except for no magic and slightly more combat oriented. A unit with the mark of Khorne is easy to lead around, but 6 of them at once will kill something. The hounds screen the frenzied minos, while the dragon ogres use their speed to try and sweep a flank. Everything gets a lot of attacks and is fast enough to hit flanks.

Chariots Ahoy!: Beastlord in chariot, 15 more beastmen chariots. The army moves forward, using the chaos undivided mark to reroll psychology and combines charges. Lots of impact hits and it's surprisingly mobile. The army is tough against everything but a cannon-heavy army and even then the fast charge of a few chariots can silence the guns quickly.

3 Butcher/MSU Ogres: Tyrant w/ Tenderizer, 3 butchers, lots of ironguts units, small units of leadbelchers, 3 yhetees. The ogres cast a lot of spells with 3 butchers, and in no time you have an army of stubborn, extra strong, extra tough ogres who are running right at you. They usually run in a checkerboard pattern, so that when you charge a unit, they hold on a stubborn leadership and flank you on the next turn.

Putty
21-09-2007, 22:30
wow... thanks for the list sephiroth87... i just learnt about a few lists that i didn't know existed.

btw... is superherd a cheesy list? or is that list one of them beast armies towards the end of your list?

L192837465
21-09-2007, 22:31
nice list! very thurough. i like.

sephiroth87
21-09-2007, 23:01
forgot the superherd. I'll edit it...

And if anyone else knows any other (in)famous builds, just let me know and I'll put them up.

Causa Mortis
21-09-2007, 23:24
Are these all 2250 pt lists or thereabouts?

sephiroth87
22-09-2007, 01:00
They're meant to be between 2000 and 2250. I specifically did not give exact wargear and troop lists because I've seen a lot of variation even in these tournament competitive lists.

Twisted Ferret
22-09-2007, 02:04
Very nice post. I had no idea my Tzeentch Mortals army was considered cheesy! I just really like magic. :p

Nargrakhan
22-09-2007, 02:34
This thread should be stickied! It's made of PURE WIN... literally! :evilgrin:

Voodoo Boyz
22-09-2007, 02:37
I'm disappointed by the lack of the normal skink+Krox+Sallies+NikeSaurus army of doom.

Still, nice list summary.

Kamizanate
22-09-2007, 02:42
I dunno if that Ogre one belongs there

All Ogre generals have to have bad luck or else they aren't playing their army correctly

kyussinchains
22-09-2007, 12:05
I think you should swap the ogre list you put up for the skrag the slaughterer list of doom (pretty much the only cheese list the ogres can field)

skrag, 3 butchers, loads of ironguts and 6-10 gorgers

Holy Crap! Manticores!
22-09-2007, 12:25
:p @ anyone who thinks the Dark Elf cavalry/magic/shooting list above is CHEESY.

(As I take a break from modeling my 2nd unit of Cold One Knights and 4th unit of Dark Riders.)

mistformsquirrel
22-09-2007, 12:29
Waitwaitwait...

...

*counts up power dice*

I have 14 Powerdice in my Tzeentch Mortals... but no chariots, only one unit of Knights, and no Daemons >.>

Tutore
22-09-2007, 12:57
Good list! However, I don't think that all of those armies are cheesy, only a few of them.

superduperkoopatrooper
22-09-2007, 15:15
Hi, that's a really interesting post. I'd say some of those lists aren't the main offenders though.

The ogre one, as has been mentioned, is just the best you can get from them but it's not unstoppable by any means.
Having never seen dark elves get anywhere in tournaments i don't think any build with them is too cheesy.
The Morghur one is fun and totally nuts but at the end of the day, what good are spawn against most types of unit?
I'd also leave the superherd out as it's too easy to flank skirmishers now using a double charge and tactical wheeling, making high point herds very vulnerable.

Otherwise i think you're about spot on, i can't think of any other builds that give me sleepless nights trying to figure out ways to beat them.

Chicago Slim
23-09-2007, 01:46
There is no cheese. There's legal, and illegal. That's it.

Ganymede
23-09-2007, 02:42
Sure there's cheese. It is the very reason why comp was existed in the first place: because of the fact that point-for-point, some units and models are simply better.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
23-09-2007, 03:27
Yay, I was afraid there wasn't and orc and goblin list! Time to get building my spear chukkas!!

Kahadras
23-09-2007, 12:30
Very interesting thread. How about the all mounted Empire army? Kurt Helborg, Luthor Huss, BSB (mounted) and mage (with dispel scrolls). Army consists of units of Knights, a unit of Knight of the Inner Circle, Outrider, Pistoliers and 2 Steam tanks. I've seen one in action and it was very effective IMHO, works kind of like the all mounted Bretonnian army apart from the fact it has more shooting.

Kahadras

Heretic Burner
23-09-2007, 15:00
:p @ anyone who thinks the Dark Elf cavalry/magic/shooting list above is CHEESY.


I'm personally amused by the idea of an O&G army taking shamans and loading up on fanatics being a good thing. :p

Still, it does list several commonly seen cheese variants so it isn't a total disaster. Just appears a strange agenda to include most armies for some reason that mars the list.

sephiroth87
23-09-2007, 16:51
Agenda:

I can "cheese up" any list, so it's meant to show people that one or two specific army books aren't that broken. Players always exploit whatever loopholes are there and it's nearly impossible to close all of them. And as always, cheese is in the eye of the beholder. These are the lists that I've heard called cheesy by different sources, and I've probably played against all of them at some point.

And the orc and goblin army is surprisingly effective. 10 war machines shooting at you backed up by guided missile fanatics, magic, and skarsnik needs to be played against just once to see it in action. It's not fun to play against, and you're simply trying to wade through the fanatics to destroy it. On the magic bit, I regularly play with a great shaman, orc shaman, and 2 goblin shamans. The magic is very good, but the miscast is nasty. I never throw more than 3 dice at a spell and I've done pretty well with the list. 3 shamans throwing the foot of gork or ork shamans casting fists of gork is devastating combined with the shooting.

I've also seen that dark elf army destroy every opponent in a tournament I played in. The guy kept marching and shooting, never letting anything even get near him. People were complaining about it all day. Once again, even if you win, it's hellish to fight against because you'll likely never reach the dark elf player and often ends up as an exercise in frustration.

Even on Druchii.net many of the players consider that list a little on the cheesy side.

You might not believe the MSU concept is cheesy, but there are many people on this board who complain about it. Ogres and Dark Elves are just particularly good at doing it.

empireguard
24-09-2007, 01:22
Some good stuff here a lot I can agree with

However I must say how can the War Altar win combat on it's own? Even on the charge against a unit of gobbo’s the odds are against it. With 3 ranks, outnumber, musician and standard the altar needs 6 kills to win.

sephiroth87
25-09-2007, 00:22
Assuming you're charging from the front... ;)

Doesn't the thing get impact hits? And doesn't a character with a decent attacks and hatred get to ride it? And horses. Everybody knows that 2 horses are worth 4 knights in terms of kills...

Nope, that guy would never win...:D

Seriously, the guy certainly isn't helpless, especially riding that ugly behemoth full of bound spells.

xAlpha
25-09-2007, 01:06
Good list! However, I don't think that all of those armies are cheesy, only a few of them.

Ditto.


Agenda:

I can "cheese up" any list, so it's meant to show people that one or two specific army books aren't that broken. Players always exploit whatever loopholes are there and it's nearly impossible to close all of them. And as always, cheese is in the eye of the beholder. These are the lists that I've heard called cheesy by different sources, and I've probably played against all of them at some point.

Some of those aren't "loopholes" though. I'm not even sure there's a decent way to play an effective Skaven list without lots of clanrats and slaves (which are core units, after all). I'll admit it's similar to my list (although I don't have a Grey Seer or Screaming Bell), so maybe I'm biased, but I don't think it's cheesy (which, in itself, is a pun waiting to happen). I guess if you took like 5 ratling guns....

sephiroth87
25-09-2007, 01:38
So 5 ratling guns is cheesy, but not 4? The Skaven SAD is quite famous in many gaming groups, and not for being fair.

Once again, I don't think any of them are cheesy, but those are the ones people mention.

Cheese depends on the metagame (who you normally play against) and your own opinions about how the game is supposed to be played. No one wants their particular style of play to be picked out. I've had people threaten to never play me again after playing my Southlands list, even though I don't think it's the strongest army possible made with the list. But it is annoying to play against.

I've seen other people refuse to play the Khalida Tomb Kings, Morghur Beastmen, SAD and Flying Circus lists of all varieties that people in my local store play.

As for loopholes, I personally believe that certain things taken in ones or twos are easily dealt with, but if taken in larger groups, it becomes what's largely considered as cheesy. Give me 3 Pegasus knights, and my opponents are fine. With 15 of them they hate me. Same thing with skaven. Take 1 unit of slaves and 5 jezzails, I'm balanced, but with 5 units of slaves and 20 jezzails people won't play me again. Does this make the army better? I don't think so, but it certainly makes the army less interesting to play against.

xAlpha
25-09-2007, 04:46
I don't know that 4 isn't cheesy, either. That's not what I'm saying.

I also don't think people build lists to make it interesting for others. My list was built because I like the way it plays. I don't even play "to win", per se, I'm used to losing every single game I've ever played (well, ok, I've won a total of 4 in my entire life), so losing is no big deal.

But Skaven have things that shoot. Bretonians are known for their cavalry (it's part of their character). Tzeentch is known for magic. I don't think that's cheesy.

Kahadras
25-09-2007, 11:17
But Skaven have things that shoot. Bretonians are known for their cavalry (it's part of their character). Tzeentch is known for magic. I don't think that's cheesy.

But surely we're talking about sheer amounts here. Yes Skaven have things that shoot but taking an entire army stuffed full of warp lightning cannon, ratling guns and jezzails starts to strech things a little IMHO. Same with 'all knights' and 'all magic'. 'Known for' is not an excuse to try to jam as much as possible into your army under the pretext of fluff.

Kahadras

StormCrow
25-09-2007, 13:55
Am i a bad person for wanting to try out some of these lists?

Just reading about that morghur list i can't help but think having an army of spawns would be an awesome sight. And I'd love to try out the O&G pillbox.

xAlpha
25-09-2007, 17:42
If I took nothing but Jezzails and WLCs, I'd be sorely low on troops. That's why things have point costs. And considering the army is meant to be a horde army, it wouldn't be as hard to beat as some of you seem to think.

sephiroth87
25-09-2007, 22:00
Am i a bad person for wanting to try out some of these lists?

Just reading about that morghur list i can't help but think having an army of spawns would be an awesome sight. And I'd love to try out the O&G pillbox.

Personally, I am a fan of the Von Carstein wolf form list. God help me, but it's FUN! Opponents don't know what to do when they see it coming, because they expect a ton of magic to be flung at them instead of a bunch of tough, fast units that can't be raised.

Kahadras
26-09-2007, 00:30
If I took nothing but Jezzails and WLCs, I'd be sorely low on troops. That's why things have point costs. And considering the army is meant to be a horde army, it wouldn't be as hard to beat as some of you seem to think.

Surely that's why you have clan rats and, to a greater extent, slaves. The whole point is that you can buy a couple of warp lightning cannon, 5 ratling guns, jezails and still be able to put plenty of troops down on the table.

Kahadras

Zethal
26-09-2007, 08:07
This seemed like and appropriate link to post
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

Chicago Slim
26-09-2007, 11:52
You seem to have misunderstood my point.

There is no cheese.

Every army type has a variety of ways in which it can be built, to emphasize one or another of its strengths. Some lists can be particularly effective, unless you have the skill and experience to know how to deal with it-- and, by the way, developing that skill and experience is meant to be FUN. Four years ago, when my mate started playing 2000 point armies with 10-12 chariots in them, it blew my wood elves off the table, until I figured out how to adapt and defeat them. It was an excellent challenge, and involved losing five games in a row...

So long as a specific list stays within the rules that bind it, there's no cause for complaint. This is the essence of the No Cheese Philosophy: Quit your whining, and go have fun instead.

EvC
26-09-2007, 11:56
Personally, I am a fan of the Von Carstein wolf form list. God help me, but it's FUN! Opponents don't know what to do when they see it coming, because they expect a ton of magic to be flung at them instead of a bunch of tough, fast units that can't be raised.

Is it fun for the opponents?

Kahadras
26-09-2007, 12:10
Lol I enjoyed reading that. Especialy the bit where he has the picture of the British Redcoats and calls them scrubs. That's the funniest thing ever. In fact the whole thread was laughable really.

I always have the view that you have to modulate your play depending on the situation and your opponant. Doesn't matter whether you are a 'powergamer' or a 'scrub' (I prefer the term moderate) you should agree with your opponant on how to play. If it's a tourney then it's a free for all but different situations require a different approach.

If you ignore the fact that some people look for different things in a game then you'll end up like the guy posting about 'scrubs' (people who can no longer be bothered to play him anymore due to his obsession with winning). He places himself in the 'elite' 0.1% that understand how to play games competitivly. Everybody knows how to play games competitivly it's just that 99.9% of people understand the difference between competitive play and fun.


This is the essence of the No Cheese Philosophy: Quit your whining, and go have fun instead.

Agreed. If you have an army that isn't set up to deal with what your opponant is fielding you can always walk away. 'Go and find someone else to play' is my motto. Case in point (40K rather than fantasy but the point still stands) I used to field a foot based Space Wolf army in 3rd ed. A guy in GW challenged my to a game with his million Starcannon, 3 Falcon, air cav army of doom. I just took one look at what he was fielding, laughed, declined the game and went to find somebody else to play.

Kahadras

Chris_Tzeentch
26-09-2007, 12:56
I have to say, its very true what the article says about these preconceived rules which the scrubs live by. How many times have you not taken a unit because you werent particularly happy with the miniatures? Conversly, have you taken a unit because you liked the idea behind it or the miniature rather for its effectiveness in the game? Fluff has no place in the competition gamers mindset. If you dont like the figure - change the figure!!! Dont leave it out.

Kahadras
26-09-2007, 13:22
I have to say, its very true what the article says about these preconceived rules which the scrubs live by. How many times have you not taken a unit because you werent particularly happy with the miniatures? Conversly, have you taken a unit because you liked the idea behind it or the miniature rather for its effectiveness in the game?

I don't see it as preconcieved rules I just see it as choices that are made. Everybody 'knows' how to be cheap, everybody 'knows' how to cheese. Those who do so seem to have this difficultly understanding that the vast majority of people can do the same, it's just they decide not to.

Like people who decide they want to master the most difficult combo's in the beat 'em up game rather than just use the throw, throw, throw, throw technique. It's not that they're somehow incapable of understanding that throw, throw, throw, throw works it's just that they look for more in a game than just winning by the most expediant and reliable method possible.

Kahadras

T10
26-09-2007, 15:04
Strigoi Flying Circus: This is no longer quite as feasable as character can no longer form units with just each other. At the minimum a single rank-and-file trooper is required. The characters can operate close together, but if they lose a round of combat they each suffer the crumbling effect.

-T10

gerrymander61
26-09-2007, 18:21
I too agree with the No Cheese Philosophy. I think that the only thing that this 'cheese' list will do is steer players away from decent army lists. For example, the Treemonic Legion is a themed and fluffy army that's fun to play, but by being on this list some players will decide against trying to field it.

In any game there will always be things that are better than other things because, like their creators, games aren't perfect. This does not, however, mean that anyone opting to take the better choice is a bad person, a 'cheesemeister,' as it were.


How many times have you not taken a unit because you werent particularly happy with the miniatures?

I would never take a unit of Dragon Ogres. Not because they aren't good, but because they have models that should be condemned by the asthetics inspector.

sephiroth87
26-09-2007, 20:30
Is it fun for the opponents?

I've only personally ever had a real problem with one opponent, and that was in a 40k game at the Atlanta Gamesday a couple of years ago.
When I posted these lists, my tongue was firmly in cheek. I'm just tired of seeing the same whiny posts about just one or two army books (wood elves and bretonnians, and skaven to a lesser extent now), while they ignore how people might feel about their own army or they discount how unfun and/or min-maxed their own book can be in the hands of certain players.

There's nothing funnier than seeing an opponent who thought his wood elf tree list was the best thing since sliced bread get trashed by another player playing a list or army that's not considered to be in the top tier.

I have seen the Dogs of war army I posted beat the crap out of a tree army. It was absolutely hilarious when the guy started calling the dogs of war player cheesy... :p He just got outskirmished!

Frankly
27-09-2007, 10:59
Man, I really liked lots of those army builds.

feintstar
27-09-2007, 13:57
I think its really good to see all those army builds, for power obsessed and non-power obsessed alike, just o know what is possible, and also, if you've been beaten by one, realise that you're not the only one. I also agree with the philosophy that you should take a 'cheesy' list and tone it down.

There is on build that I've heard of (though I never saw it played) which might fit into your list.

Goes like
Skaven Warlord, no frills.
1/2 the rest of the army = Clanrats
the other 1/2 = slaves, no upgrades.

Win by VP denial, and a checkerboard setup; fleeing and flankcharging, remember that the vast majority of the units wilh have Good Leadership.

As for the cheese vs no cheese arguement, I think its interesting that economics starts with the assumption that humans will make decisions based on purely selfish, rational financial thought. Yet, experiments have shown that humans factor many more, non fiscal factors which influence their decision making.

For instance, in Israel, a kindergarten was finding that the parents consistently picked up their children late from school In order to offset this, they started to charge parents extra determined by how late they came. Contrary to expectation, parents started coming even later. Now that they were paying, they didn't feel guilty for picking up their kids late. Internal pressures undoubtably form a vast portion of our decision making. The extent to which we self censor our actions for the sake of assuaging internal guilt, or attempting to offset another's discomfort, cannot be guessed at.

But does that mean that people who are not listening to their inner social conscience are necessarily more effective?

This entirely depends upon what you are trying to achieve. If the aim and object is victory, at any cost, for any single game or moment in time, then abandoning one's social conscience is an adaptive way of achieving that end.

On the other hand, if one is attempting to play games in an enjoyable manner with a group of friends, then perhaps victory at any cost will quickly alienate you, and your victories will perhaps not be sustainable.

My personal feeling is that the trend of society at large to actively disavow and abandon social conscience is a negative thing that causes a great deal of alienation, suffering and heartache. It is a mental trend embracing psycopathy, albeit in a mild form. This does not mean that I am anti all forms of competitiveness. I have made cheesy armies, but I have found them unrewarding. For there is a balance to be found in our hearts between the desire to enact our own will on world, and the desire to embrace the norms and forms of our society, for the sake of no less than our own happiness, and the sake of the healthy fabric of society itself.. In gaming terms, the name for the sense of wrongness when comraderie is set aside for something uglier is called 'cheese', by those who still have a social conscience with which to notice it.

/lecture

P.S. The redcoats also won and held the British Empire for 100 years, and provided the society which brought you a poem called If. Google it if you don't know it already.

kaulem
27-09-2007, 16:32
I personnally don't mind playing someone who's playing for the win, and only the win... as long as I know before hand. That's why that I, before making my army, always ask my opponent what type of game he wants to play.

My game types:
Anything goes... bring your worst.
Themed/Scenario games.
Lower level characters/magic.

That way, I know what to expect and I am in a mindset to play a certain type of game. If we aggreed to play a 'bring your worst' type of game, I won't cry foul if my opponent brings a SAD army.

If we decide to play a "Scenario" typed game (lets say, Grom the punch's invasion of Ulthwan) I will cry foul if my opponent brings Grimgor Ironhide!

One thing that I REALLY, REALLY find abusive, is when someone brings an army that he knows his opponent won't be able to handle. Example: A new player started playing undead, he only has a few units of small skeletons, 1 necro, 1 vamp and a couple of support units, Then his opponent builds an Slayer army so that his entire army is immune to psychology, and tougher in HtH.

In this case, the Dwarf player knows there wont be too much magic, no shooting and no chariots and makes an army that is 100% sure of winning the game... this is CHEESY, AKA: BAD SPORTSMANSHIP and a nice way to have a new player not like the game anymore.

IMO.

Chicago Slim
27-09-2007, 19:24
More on the idea that "There is No Cheese", from the philosopher king who brought it up here first...

I disagree with the implication that "decheesing" a list is a benevolent act of sportsmanship. I also strongly believe that game players should be good sports, by which I mean that we take on a part of the responsibility for ensuring that our opponents have an enjoyable game. If you believe that your opponent isn't going to enjoy playing against a certain army, you should TALK to that opponent about it (rather than assuming that you know that they're thinking and feeling), and identify his or her concerns, so that you can try to address them.


I also disagree with the idea that "some things are better than others" because of some intrinsic game-balance flaw. There are different playing styles, and different tastes, that have a huge influence on the game, and which create a very uneven baseline of what "good" means. Personally, I tend towards manuever-driven army lists, which tend towards hammer-and-anvil or eggshells-with-hammers tactics. As such, I've had great success with 6th ed. High Elven all-infantry armies (yes, seriously, even when they're light on shooting and magic).

My point is that different people prefer (and will make good use of) different things. This is very important, because otherwise, there'd be one guy out there who got all the women, and there's a really good chance he wouldn't be me.


A lot of where the "There is No Cheese" philosophy comes from is my experience as a competitive fencer: my fencing buddy and I were talking about sportsmanship while driving back from a tournament a few years ago, and I realized that I had a bad habit of making excuses, when I lost bouts, right there in front of my opponent. The guy just beat me, and here I am stealing the satisfaction of that win by whining about how I hadn't gotten enough sleep the night before. How rude of me.

This idea has gradually extended into the No Cheese philosophy: telling your opponent that his army is cheesy is just making excuses for your own loss. THAT'S bad sportsmanship. I think that it's even bad sportsmanship if you never say it out loud, but just think it. It's negative thinking, it leads you to believe that you're justified in your loss, and it does you no good as a player.

Fortunately, there's a way out: get better, and go beat the armies that you thought were cheesy. (Same plan works for beating cheaters, too...)

Skyldig
29-09-2007, 14:17
Very nice posting, haven't seen a thread like this before, and I've enjoyed reading it :)

Heretic Burner
29-09-2007, 16:00
Fortunately, there's a way out: get better, and go beat the armies that you thought were cheesy. (Same plan works for beating cheaters, too...)

Sadly that isn't a "way out", some armies are simply statistically not equal to the task. It is horrific sportsmanship for a player to play such an overwhelmingly dominant army and suggest it was in some manner their "skill" that won the game. No it was more than likely the imbalanced list. A failure to admit this is a sorry state of sportsmanship and, qutie frankly, a sorry human being.

Fortunately most tournaments allow soft scores to even the playing field (though judging from a statistical analysis, nowhere near the amount necessary). These are vital in the face of GW's terrible job of balancing armies. Some armies simply cannot compete agaiinst a "cheesed out" list. The results show this. Until GW properly balance their armies cheese will not be a problem that will go away. After all, they certainly can't expect powergamer players to go away.

feintstar
30-09-2007, 05:46
In defence of GW (?!!) It is probably impossible to balance the lists entirely. Some will always be slightly better than others. To suggest that every army and every unit is perfectly points allocated gives a great deal of excess credit to the games designers. After all, the number of patches released after Starcraft was released is testament to the trickyness of balancing, even after millions of man-hours' playtesting.

It is a reasonable counterargument to suggest that the relative imbalances will come out in the wash, with all the dice in play, thus making the differences negligable. Nonetheless, in a large enough sample size, the differences will eventually become apparant.

On a darker, more cynical note, however, I suspect that there are occasions when GW deliberately un-balances the lists slightly, in order to sell models, and also in order to ensure that there is a necessity in creating a revised army list, because if they did make the game just right, they'd simply run out of reasons to re-release everything.

But back on topic:
I will applaud Chicago Slim's point that we should TALK to our opponent with regard to the balancing of our army lists, to ensure that they are on the level. I will also applaud his suggestion that complaining about the efficacy and cheesiness of your opponent's list is counterproductive at best.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it is poor sportsmanship to think it though. What thinking "his army is cheesy" actually means, is that you are petulantly noting that he didn't restrain his unit selection for the sake of fun as much as you did. And you are resentful, because you weren't playing a fair fight, and possibly, you weren't aware of that. Ultimately, you need to communicate with your opponent your thinking while making a list, so that he can think in a similar manner, for a fairer fight. The problem occurs when there is no consideration whatever for your opponent's thinking or fun, and the victory at-any-costs mentality is all pervasive without restraint, alienating players and killing the fun of the hobby.

Boneknight
01-10-2007, 02:04
What about the Khorne Battering Ram of PAIN!!! Knights of Khorne, more knights of Khorne, sick lords (my favorite lord of khorne is berserker blade, enchant shield, furies, and warhwounds to screen and mess up your baiting. ANd fleshhounds to flank, and kill a lot. And chariots, with exalteds in the chariots

Boneknight
01-10-2007, 02:35
There i is no cheese, there is the good lists and the bad lists. UNits can be cheesy, i.e. units that are really to good for what they cost. But, there are no cheesy armies. I'm an excellent player w/a great win loss record but i don't call them cheesy. I have taken Khorne battering ram lists but they've been beaten before. I've taken monsster armies which die. Neither is cheesy or bad it is just degrees of effectiveness. There are bad lists though, monster hordes aren't oner of them butr they can be. In a 1000 pts 0f HE I would just take what models I owned because I hadn't been play with them for long. It was a mage, seer channeler silver wand. 8 SH with the full command banner of Elyrion, 5 DP with full command banner or sorcery book of plus 1 leadership, 6 shadow warriors shadow walker, 25 sea guard full command shields. Is that cheesy, no. Is it effective yes. But does it have it's weaknesses, yes. Ihave no main combat. I have to blast you apart wiht my uber mage, the seaguard and shadow warriors shoot, DP charge you and hold you uo with their ld10, SH leap through cover and flank. It is easy to counter you kust have to know how. The only reason the list has never lost is because know one I played at my store knew how to counter because it was very different then what they're used to. Know rock armies have ever played long enough in a game to see if they could beat it. I was playing Dwarves, it was 2 rock units, thane, thane, Dark Emissary. He sr=urrendured on the 4th or 3rd turn because my uber mage killed 10 Dwarves, wouned a thane and killed the emisarry and my cav had him all messed up. If he kept going he might have pulled out a draw. Maybe not though because he isn't as goodd a tactician as me, but in that situation I would have kept going and ended up witha draw. I play Grey Knights, its a bad army that people complain of being cheesy? I stay back and shoot. I've like 2 vehicles, only 2 weapons that count as main for vehicles, and 36 guys. I have to kill tanks in combat. People still say its cheesy because they fall into my trap and end up being shot to death by my mass firepower, out flanked by the crusader and teleport attck squad with them and the termy+GM ripping through them and both units incinerationg them. That's not cheesy, I'm just better than them. No such thing as cheesy army books or cheesy lists.

jon23516
01-10-2007, 06:58
It seems clear to me while reading this thread that there are several variations or levels of what we define as "cheese".

To me, a balanced list follows more of a "one of everything" approach where I try to avoid doubling up on a unit type.

Whereas a "cheese" list is more likely to contain multiples of what would be considered the most cost effective and efficient unit or units from a particular army list.

At its core this makes a lot of sense. If I find a good unit in an army book, then why wouldn't more be better? In my opinion if I think that my opponent won't have a chance against my list unless they tailor their own list then I've gone too far. In the same way, if I have to tailor my list to even stand a chance against your list, then you've gone too far.

It boils down to the social agreement, mentioned both in this thread and JJ's article in the most recent White Dwarf (USA). We play this game for fun and if both sides aren't having fun then perhaps we've missed the point.

As for someone's suggestion that we walk away from battles if we recognize a bad matchup (poor summary I know)... this can only go so far. If you're taking your army down to a local shop looking for a pick-up game where you have some choices then this makes sense. However things change in a small(er) private gaming group.

I host a weekly gaming night for 4 other guys. While several of us can field multiple 2250 point armies (Fantasy) two of the guys are new to the hobby and can barely field 2250 points respectively. Our High Elf player has a certain magic/shooting build that I've never beat, even with a tailored list with my Empire. We've talked and he's working on an Orc force too, but if I refuse too many bad matchups I'll find myself without a play group! I'm secretly afraid of the new HE book coming out this year and how his army will look when he breaks it out again.

Back to the original list of armies by sephiroth87. I'm toying with Kurt Helborg, 2 mounted Warrior Priests and a Lvl2 scroll caddy; 3x9 Knights with full command (1 IC with War Banner for Kurt) and 3x21 flagellents. I believe I can also fit in either 6 pistoliers or 5 outriders.

My usual Empire list follows the one of eveything approach and I get magiked to death, shot to death or Fear-chased by HE, WE and VC on a regular basis.

I think it was feintstar who mentioned the difficulty (and possible lack of motivation) of GW actually making every one of their published army lists "balanced" While there are surely many of us which would applaud their effort there would be just as many who would probably find fault with individual army lists not having enough unique flavor and differentiation and complain that the lists were too cookie-cutter and that GW was telling us how to build our armies through restrictive choices.

To repeat myself, it boils down to having fun. Communicate with those you play with, whether regulars down at the shop or a private play group. Know ahead of time whether you're playing WAAC lists or more balanced all-comer's lists. All but one in my play group is married with kids, and can only set aside 1 night a week for gaming. We've come to recognize that there is not much more that is worse then knowing that you're wasting an entire evening on a clear mis-match where you're just getting your head kicked in with no chance of winning. Personally, I don't mind losing (I have lots of practice) but no one likes getting themselves massacred time after time.

I believe there are combos, builds and matchups which transcend the sage advice "get better". Becoming a better player should always be a goal, but all these things have a place in the gaming experience.

I'm clearly rambling now. I'll stop. Good night.

Jon

Nkari
01-10-2007, 08:05
Any list with more than 1 rinox rider in it.. :P

Kahadras
01-10-2007, 08:49
There i is no cheese, there is the good lists and the bad lists. UNits can be cheesy, i.e. units that are really to good for what they cost. But, there are no cheesy armies.

Surely then a cheesy army is made out of nothing but cheesy units.


That's not cheesy, I'm just better than them. No such thing as cheesy army books or cheesy lists.

Have you acutaly played any truely broken lists? Like playing a Gunline with that HE list which locks down your magic for six turns and just shoots everything else to death. Hasn't your GK ever come across a SM assault cannon/laz plas army which just shoots you off the table?

It's OK to say 'there is no cheese' but please back up your statements with examples of how you've beaten armies that are truely 'competitive'.

Kahadras

ManofManyArmies
01-10-2007, 11:54
Umm i vote that you change the name of Treemonic Legion to
TreeZilla, cause i think it is more fun to say, and i plan on fielding that list so time cause i like big trees and i really like the way Dryads look

Chicago Slim
01-10-2007, 16:04
Again I say, if your Empire troops aren't beating your buddies High Elves, then the answer is to play better. This is a tactical wargame, and it really does go in favor of the superior tactician.

One thing that I've done, to help develop tactics and to convince myself of my admittedly bold statement, is this: play several games matching up the same lists. I mean exactly the same. Ifyou got stomped, figure out how to do it better.
Also, trade lists with your opponent: take a turn playing his high elves, while he uses your Empire troops. There's nothing quite so eye-opening as the visceral feeling that comes from weilding the supposedly cheesy list your buddy brought, against the balanced list you built, only to find that he still rips you to shreds.

As for some specific tactics vs some highly effective lists: against RAF or chariot mobs, I determine my acceptable losses early on, and manuever that fodder carefully into place, so that I can pick a couple of his units to crush with my real main effort, while about half of his main fighting force is tied up for 2-3 turns, picking up a couple hundred points of chaff. The specifics depend on what I'm playing, whether I have a tarpit unit or not, etc.. But the thing to keep in mind that these fast-moving hard-hitting armies tend to rely on having a lot of offence to deliver in a single timed crush. If you can knock half of his units out, he'll lose much more than half his efficacy. (same's true, to some degree, for any overloaded army of one trick, whether it's magic, artillery, shooting, cavalry, etc.)

Heretic Burner
02-10-2007, 00:11
Again I say, if your Empire troops aren't beating your buddies High Elves, then the answer is to play better.

Sadly that won't be a very useful option in the near future. HE will simply be a stronger army. Playing better is not an option that can be expected to lead to victory, particularly against an army that is far more powerful. Playing much better might be, however since you only control your turns and not your opponents that too isn't a foolproof plan.


This is a tactical wargame, and it really does go in favor of the superior tactician.

No. Statistically it goes with whoever fields the more powerful army.


One thing that I've done, to help develop tactics and to convince myself of my admittedly bold statement, is this: play several games matching up the same lists. I mean exactly the same. Ifyou got stomped, figure out how to do it better.

Sure you might figure out how to do better. However, the more likely explanation is that indeed, one army list was far more powerful than the other. Of course, repeated stompings in no way actually leads to enjoyment for most players so perhaps a more sound suggestion would be to change the lists for a more entertaining game?


Also, trade lists with your opponent: take a turn playing his high elves, while he uses your Empire troops. There's nothing quite so eye-opening as the visceral feeling that comes from weilding the supposedly cheesy list your buddy brought, against the balanced list you built, only to find that he still rips you to shreds.

I can certainly think of one or two things more "eye-opening" than that (and not all of them take place in the seedier parts of town). ;) Then again, if you use that same list and do indeed stomp your opponent (an event far more statistically likely to happen), I suppose that is "eye-opening" in its own way as well.


As for some specific tactics vs some highly effective lists: against RAF or chariot mobs, I determine my acceptable losses early on, and manuever that fodder carefully into place, so that I can pick a couple of his units to crush with my real main effort, while about half of his main fighting force is tied up for 2-3 turns, picking up a couple hundred points of chaff. The specifics depend on what I'm playing, whether I have a tarpit unit or not, etc.. But the thing to keep in mind that these fast-moving hard-hitting armies tend to rely on having a lot of offence to deliver in a single timed crush. If you can knock half of his units out, he'll lose much more than half his efficacy. (same's true, to some degree, for any overloaded army of one trick, whether it's magic, artillery, shooting, cavalry, etc.)

Choosing units to lose isn't a sound strategy against an army with far more mobility. Your opponent gets to pick and choose the matchups, after all its on his terms. There are of course options that can help an underdog against a blatantly stronger army, however helping is a far cry from beating. There is an element of randomness so yes it is possible that far more powerful Bret lance can flub its rolls and not break your unit however it isn't something to count on.

Bret RAF are so powerful in part because your suggestion simply doesn't work against them - pegasus knights are powerful enough on their own to break most units yet fast enough to avoid anything that might cause them trouble. To no surprise they vastly outperform say O&G, the very worst army in the game in the movement phase.

Simply put, legitimate cheese lists are popular with the powergaming crowd because they are effective. They take advantage of holes in the rule set and are optimized to flat out win. There is a reason the same armies and the same builds dominate standings again and again and again - those armies are simply more powerful than other armies. GW should make every attempt to balance the armies ensuring a fair and even game however their current release schedule prohibits this. Sadly it doesn't seem to be working well for them from a financial viewpoint, but enough red ink might change their opinion eventually. Or they might just raise prices again... :rolleyes:

Boneknight
02-10-2007, 01:05
Have you acutaly played any truely broken lists? Like playing a Gunline with that HE list which locks down your magic for six turns and just shoots everything else to death. Hasn't your GK ever come across a SM assault cannon/laz plas army which just shoots you off the table?

By the way, that gunline list, hard to do in a 1000 pts. That list is the HE gunline/counter cav force. ANd it fought a daemonic legion. Not an easy game. Also, the guy was a better player than me. He underestimated my Dragon Princes. And my book of Hoeth allowed my Silver Helms to not flee on the 2nd turn (I rolled a 9 for a panic test, but hte 2 units were within 6 inches of esch other barely)

Kahadras
02-10-2007, 01:44
By the way, that gunline list, hard to do in a 1000 pts

Not really...

2 Battle wizards with 2 dispel scolls each
40 Handgunners/Crossbowmen
5 Knights (optional)
5 Pistoliers (optional)
2 Cannon = 1000p

Kahadras

Chicago Slim
02-10-2007, 15:29
Heretic burner, I can't help you if you don't want to be helped. What I'm telling you is that a skillful tactician can and does affect his opponent's turn, can and does force his opponent to make poor choices of target, can and does win the manuever phase even with lower Mv stats. If you choose not to believe that, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

I absolutely have played countless games against "cheesy" or "broken" armies (my best friend is the second greatest min-max powergamer I know, so I get plenty of opportunity to face well-designed, enormously effective lists).

Seriously, try my suggestion: the next time you think you got beaten just because of the opponent's cheese, ask if he's willing to play again, but switching forces (so, you'll play his cheese, and he'll run your balanced list). Be nice about how you ask, and see if you trounce him right back. If not, then it's not about the army build, and it turns out that you're playing a tactical wargame, and you need better tactics.

I suggest this specifically because I used to say the same things you're saying, until my friend suggested we swap lists. It was a great opportunity to discover that my problem wasn't just the lists (though I have learned about building better lists, as well, and I'm not saying that build doesn't count).

There's a heirarchical model of warfighting which I find useful, placing strategy at the top, followed by grand tactics, tactics, and operations. Victpry at high levels makes victory at lower levels easier (but never certain). For our purposes, strategy is army build, grand tactics are your overall plan, tactics are the moves you make, and operations is rolling the dice. If you bring an inferior army, you need a better plan, well-executed, and maybe some luck. Difficult, but never impossible.

Gorog Irongut
02-10-2007, 16:56
Some of the more recent posts seem to say that one's list is the only determining factor in who wins the game. Others throw out the question, asking those who do not believe in cheese (may their names be honoured forever) to cite examples of when they overcame uber mega cheesy lists.


Cheese does not exist. Tactics are the key to winning games. And I have played the ultra cheesy lists. You can go look for yourself. During the Nemesis Crown Campaign, I participated as Gorog Irongut and was ranked in the top 5 or 10 players in the UK.

During my games, not only did I allow my opponents to see my army (dwarfs) and a brief view of my list, but they were then allowed to customize their lists to face me. I played:
-2 Empire gunlines (one led by Karl Franz). They also had Stanks, hellblasters, pistoliers, mages, yada yada yada.
-A combined chaos/skaven force which fielded a total of 18 power dice and a buttload of skaveny shooting.
-The then reigning skaven player in the UK who ubertweaked his list to include many things such as Thanquol and his 13 warp tokens, their stupid bell, mucho magic users, and lots of their stupid shooting.
-A lizardman list with their highest ranked slaan, 3 skink shamans, and undying hoardes of those skink guys with poisoned ranged weapons.

Each of them had magic and shooting phases out the wazzooo. Each of them was massacred. Although the Nemesis Website doesn't show it, they were massacred badly.

Most games I barely lost 300 points compared to the total destruction of their army. I didn't use Thorek. I did use an Anvil but to counteract it's abilities, I promised myself to take the risk and use ancient force every turn. This resulted in it blowing up 3 out of the 9 games. Most of the time, if it did blow up, it blew up on the first turn.

Aside from the Anvil, I had no shooting troops. I had 3 bare naked bolt throwers and an organ gun. Hardly a dwarfen gunline. Especially as I've always been tempted to put 8 bolt throwers down on the table just to see the look on my opponents face.

The list was about as balanced as you can get. Yet it massacred horribly all of those power gaming lists. Although not mentioned, it also solidly defeated a RAF bretonnian list and a couple of O&G lists. If the list was balanced, then how did it win against the Cheese?

Tactics are the only answer. Cheese is a myth. Last time I went to GT, I played several games against many uber armies. I enjoyed them all but two stick out from the rest.

The first was an Empire Gunline using 2 Stanks under the old rules (when they were invincible). All of his points were spent on magic or shooting save for one unit of knights. This game was the best of my life. We had so much fun playing because we realized it was a game and made the game epic. Although we both played well, I won and was the only person in the Heat to kill a Stank (I tagged both of them).

The other game sucked the life out of me. It was against a guy from some unknown country (he didn't speak english) who didn't know how to play. He fudged all of his rolls. His measurements were accurate to a level of +/-3". Against all of his playing, I lost all will to live and allowed him to get a draw with me (you can only tell a guy so many times that what he did was just wrong before you just call it quits and beg for the game to be over). This player's list was about as nondescript as could be. It was an ogre list that actually used a Hunter.

Cheese does not exist. Tactics exist. Making the game fun for your opponent exists. If you have the last two (because cheese being a null-entity cannot enter into the equation) then both of you come away with a game that is both memorable, fun, and inspires you to become a better player.

p.s. If anyone wants to check out my stats, remember my username was Gorog Irongut in the barren hills and that my dwarfs ranked in the top 10 (now that I think about it, I believe I was 7th).

p.s.s. If anyone wants to examine the army list that I used to try and identify any whiffs of cheddar, just ask and I'll post it somewhere.

EvC
02-10-2007, 17:37
The thing is, many people use the supposedly "cheesy" lists as a crutch, so when they come up across an army that they have not faced before, they have no idea what to do. It really pained me seeing a War Altar + Steam Tank list, where the player had bo doubt been told by some internet site, "never fire the steam cannon!", even when a High Elf cavalry unit with two Characters directly presented their flank to the beast, and he would not risk firing at them, when it would have won him the game. Your mostly combat Dwarf list supported by an Anvil probably confused the bejesus out of your opponents, and they could not adapt. However when I've played against the "cheesier" builds with a standard, "balanced" (i.e. nondescript) von Carstein army that they've seen a dozen times before, I've not been able to win. I won the last tournament I fought in, and I think it helped that most of my opponents had never come across a 2000 point army lead by a Vampire Lord, let alone a Lahmian. Everyone knows, after all, that Lahmians are the worst bloodline, and only n00b children take Vampire Lords over Counts...

Muncher666
02-10-2007, 18:35
Heretic burner, I can't help you if you don't want to be helped. What I'm telling you is that a skillful tactician can and does affect his opponent's turn, can and does force his opponent to make poor choices of target, can and does win the manuever phase even with lower Mv stats. If you choose not to believe that, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

Heretic Burner's posts smack of Ld 4 creatures with vomit attacks, if you get my drift. All he does is complain that Warhammer (and indeed often the armies in it, like his insatiably irritating rants about O&G) being broken - he gets off on it or something.

I reguarly play an opponent with a Tzeentchian Army of Doom - even in a small 1250 point game everything is decked out to give him as many power dice as possible in his small army, which is combat backed by a large group of marauders to take on any large numbered combats he might face. For a long time I took the Horn of Urgok against him as he constantly had more trouble getting his Chaos dudes Leadership tests to go right than I seemed to have with my pitifully low Ld 6 Night Gobbo army tests. Although I won a few, he did win the majority. Then I swapped to the staff of sneaky stealing and he hasn't won a game since.

Everyone has an achilles heel.

Allan.

Gorog Irongut
02-10-2007, 19:55
The thing is, many people use the supposedly "cheesy" lists as a crutch, so when they come up across an army that they have not faced before, they have no idea what to do. Your mostly combat Dwarf list supported by an Anvil probably confused the bejesus out of your opponents, and they could not adapt. However when I've played against the "cheesier" builds with a standard, "balanced" (i.e. nondescript) von Carstein army that they've seen a dozen times before, I've not been able to win.

I'm certain you know that I have to disagree with a part of your post. I do agree that people use things (armies, units, even certain tactics) as a crutch. The point I disagree on, is that balanced lists can't hang. I've taken lists that were immensely familiar to my opponents and which were the antithesis of cheese and still squashed them.

Continuing the previous example. The Big bad skaven player, who at the time I played him was the highest ranked skaven in the UK (Vermink Klissqueek or something like that). After that game we played, I told him I would play him again and that I would keep the list or change it up to anything that he wanted (within reason). He was also free to change his list up however he chose. He agreed and promptly spent the rest of the campaign avoiding me (it was actually quite amusing as the blackshirts deliberately set him up to play me every tuesday night and he had to find new ways to weasel out of it each time). The moment the campaign was over we did exactly that. The end result was much squishiness of rats.

Vermink up until then was the terror of anyone in the store. He'd seen and faced pretty much every other race (including multiple incarnations of dwarfs). I mention this purely to say that he'd seen many different army builds and had fared well in the gameplay against them. His only downside was that he liked to gloat about it.

Now the poor guy (after being beaten multiple times) is building a dwarf army.

I won the last tournament I fought in, and I think it helped that most of my opponents had never come across a 2000 point army lead by a Vampire Lord, let alone a Lahmian. Everyone knows, after all, that Lahmians are the worst bloodline, and only n00b children take Vampire Lords over Counts...

I have to disagree hear as well. Although the question of whether or not Counts are more effective than lords probably does end up on the side of Counts, notwithstanding the cool factor; lahmians are the coolest bloodline of the bunch. Seriously, they are my favourite. There's an interesting synergy about them that if used properly makes them more effective than any of the other bloodlines. (see Lahmians, Von Carstein, Necrarch, Strigoi, then Blood Dragons). They just have so many tools that can be used creatively if one cares to think outside the box.

It's fun beating someone with girls. Especially when there is this misconception that Lahmians are the weakest. It's like a double blow to the ego.

Kadrium
02-10-2007, 20:05
I'm pretty certain Heretic Burner just dosn't actually like Warhammer. :P

sephiroth87
02-10-2007, 21:28
I bet he likes kittens, though.

Who doesn't like kittens, right?

Or maybe he just calls them cheesy and refuses to play with them...:p

Kadrium
02-10-2007, 22:13
http://www.cuteaddict.com/images/alexis.jpg

Kahadras
02-10-2007, 22:20
Can we try to remotely get back on topic? While all this Heretic burner baiting is nice what about other armies that people view as broken? What about unbalanced combo's?

One of the best I've seen is a Truthsayer in an Ogre army. He can have access to a spell that brings one model in each unit of the players army back to life. It goes without saying people have cryed when they've managed to whittle his unit of Rhinox riders down from three to two only to see the dead model come back to life again with full wounds.

Kahadras

Heretic Burner
02-10-2007, 23:39
Heretic burner, I can't help you if you don't want to be helped.

I'm quite certain I don't need to be "helped". I suppose I should graciously applaud your offer though. I suppose.


Seriously, try my suggestion: the next time you think you got beaten just because of the opponent's cheese, ask if he's willing to play again, but switching forces (so, you'll play his cheese, and he'll run your balanced list). Be nice about how you ask, and see if you trounce him right back. If not, then it's not about the army build, and it turns out that you're playing a tactical wargame, and you need better tactics.


You seem to be under the mistaken impression this hasn't been already done. At least 3 specific times recently have I had the opportunity to put this to the test. Skaven SAD vs O&G. Bret RAF vs O&G. Thorek gunline vs Empire. On all occasions the cheese list won by massacre both in the hands of my opponents and my own. Not to toot my own horn, but I did score more total victory points in two of those three matches using the unfamiliar cheese list than my opponent did when the armies were switched.

On the other hand, I have found the far more useful suggestion of aiding O&G with a 10% points bonus against Empire seems to even up the armies, at least to a playable degree. I can, of course, only speak on this matchup as they are the armies I am most familiar with however I am sure some gradiant on other matchups can be discovered as GW playtesters seem to be failing so utterly.

Quite frankly switching armies isn't exactly something I'd rather do again. I've been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. And, it simply isn't fun. Simply better to just refuse to play the cheese list. Just saying no is far more effective.

Heromaniac
03-10-2007, 03:58
I've been playing the SAD skaven list since the arrival of the new codex and it's devasting (especially in smaller games:cries:) but I play it a little bit differently;

1 grey seer on bell with 3 warpscroll
2 warplock engineer with accumulator, condenser, warpblade, eye and stormdeamon
Assasin with power brace/warpstone amulet

2x40 clanrats with command and ratling
30 plague monks with additional weapon, command, umbranner
10 jezzail teams
2 warplightning cannons
2x25 slaves
5 plaguerats swarms

But there are no cheese list. As however strong is your army, if you don't play it right, you will lose.

EvC
03-10-2007, 11:56
I'm certain you know that I have to disagree with a part of your post. I do agree that people use things (armies, units, even certain tactics) as a crutch. The point I disagree on, is that balanced lists can't hang. I've taken lists that were immensely familiar to my opponents and which were the antithesis of cheese and still squashed them.

Well that's you, and you are not me, and my post dealt directly with my own experiences, not other peoples' ;)


I have to disagree hear as well. Although the question of whether or not Counts are more effective than lords probably does end up on the side of Counts, notwithstanding the cool factor; lahmians are the coolest bloodline of the bunch. Seriously, they are my favourite. There's an interesting synergy about them that if used properly makes them more effective than any of the other bloodlines. (see Lahmians, Von Carstein, Necrarch, Strigoi, then Blood Dragons). They just have so many tools that can be used creatively if one cares to think outside the box.

It's fun beating someone with girls. Especially when there is this misconception that Lahmians are the weakest. It's like a double blow to the ego.

Ah, that is exactly my point. When I said "everyone knows", it was in a rhetorical way, like how "everyone knows" that the moon is made of green cheese ;) There've been several posts on these forums in the last couple of weeks where people have been raving about Blood Dragons, Necrarch summon hordes, but when it comes to Lahmia, they just go, "hmm, don't know anything about the, I don't use them, so they must be rubbish". You and me are part of a small but growing resistance to this, knowing just how effective the Lahmians are ;)

Boneknight
04-10-2007, 00:54
With my NOT Broken High Elf list I fought am 1000 pt game against a vampire counts. He was trying to get over cheesy and took only one character, a dark emmisarry, as his General. I'm pretty sure that that is illegal, it is right. His list was something like this, 2x20 zombies, 2x7 black knights, Dark Emmisarry. I quit the game on the second turn after he was fudging and hiding his rolls from me, using manouvers that put his black knights up a piece of impassable terrain, and trying to pass it off as turns and wheels, except it added up to over 14'.

Kahadras
04-10-2007, 12:47
With my NOT Broken High Elf list I fought am 1000 pt game against a vampire counts. He was trying to get over cheesy and took only one character, a dark emmisarry, as his General. I'm pretty sure that that is illegal, it is right. His list was something like this, 2x20 zombies, 2x7 black knights, Dark Emmisarry. I quit the game on the second turn after he was fudging and hiding his rolls from me, using manouvers that put his black knights up a piece of impassable terrain, and trying to pass it off as turns and wheels, except it added up to over 14'.

That Undead army was cheesy? It's poor as hell IMHO. The zombies will do nothing which leaves two units of Black knights to do all the work. On top of this the Undead player doesn't have access to any necromantic spells (unless the Dark Emmisarry does) which hobbles his army almost to the extent of making it unplayable. OK he might have been cheating but that doesn't automaticaly make his army cheesy.

Kahadras

W0lf
29-01-2008, 18:08
you missed the khorne knight army.

All the Back of book VCs are also very broken.

Oh and SoC lists.

Skyldig
30-01-2008, 16:18
But there are no cheese list. As however strong is your army, if you don't play it right, you will lose.

Exactly.

However, all of you that scream "there's no cheese", and bring out arguments that you've beaten them, did you do this vs experienced players, or not?

That's a real difference. Even the best armies will get defeated if they are played bad. But if they're not...


Personally, I think there is such a thing as "cheese". I've seen players gloat alot in tournaments over their victories, when it was all down to the list. For example I saw one of those WE points denial lists, with a large eternal guard unit, general, bsb, everything but the kitchen sink, coupled with treemen and such trounce everything with little to no skill. He just advanced his troops, got shoot and charged from every angle, and won.

Even though it could get beaten, for example by a slaanesh force including a character with the bindings (choose challenges to kill that bsb giving everyone a ward save), beastlords with rune of the true beast (cant be attacked) vs treemens etc etc, the same "recipe" for defeating the WE list, will get trounced by pretty much everything else.

So in effect, everything can be beaten, but there are armies out there, that more or less win automatically due to statistics vs 90% of the other armies out there. And it is such lists, fully defeatable yet with extremely good odds in their favor, that can be called "cheese" in my oppinion.

W0lf
30-01-2008, 17:51
'with a large eternal guard unit,'

This is in no way shape or form a cheesy list.

Eternal guard are unbelieveably pants.

Jack of Blades
30-01-2008, 18:01
Oh eternal guard, how I love you.
Lightly armoured, slender and slim (*pukes* at slim-is-nice), proud, elven, and bunched up in one place... does it get more satisfying to kill? :rolleyes:

Kahadras
30-01-2008, 18:41
'with a large eternal guard unit,'

This is in no way shape or form a cheesy list.

Eternal guard are unbelieveably pants.


Depends what's in the rest of the list TBH but from the sound of it it doesn't seem that bad. The magic heavy, BSB, dryads and two treeman army is seemingly the staple 'tourney' WE army. Having said that WE armies are usualy unplesant to game against due to the way they play.

Kahadras

W0lf
30-01-2008, 19:03
Large unit of Eternal guard with BSB and highborn = best pts sink i think ive ever read in a list that claims to be powergaming.

All eggs in one basket is indeed a recognised part of some powergaming lists, all eggs in one crappy fragile unit isnt.

winkypinky
31-01-2008, 01:08
On the HE note.

The only thing I can see which can be considered a cheesy HE list now is Dragon Stompy. With 2 Dragons. And 6*5 Dragon Prinices+ 4 eagles.

The Dragons can come in all forms and shapes (almost) With Dragon mages, Asarnil, Magelord and Prince to chose from and 3 kinds of Dragons to chose from.

But please note that 2 Dragon mages is 11 PD at least.
- If there just was a way to cram in a 3th dragon the list might even be good.


-------------

And an other empire list that should be considered (in my opinion)

Mage lvl 1, 2 dispel scrolls

2 Hellblasters

x cannons

200+ Handgunners

Nothing of that fancy stuff with magic and steamtanks, war altar or KF on a dragon.
Just deploy 200+ handgunners and pick up a bucket of dice and throw it at your opponent. Chances is that with 200 handgunners there will be no need at all for "flankers", "march blockers" or "counter-charge" units.

I cant imagine any list that can stand up to 400 handgun shots in 2 turns. (even the fastest armies needs 2 turns before they reach the enemy)

Marneus Calgar
31-01-2008, 03:09
Well I have to say that the 200 handgunners will be in a VERY long single file line... That or on a VERY big hill. I don’t see it working very well at all, actually. The hellblasters are bound to blow up/misfire on turn 1(like they always do :cries:). Also, the whole army has a range of no more than 24 inches. If the enemy stays more than 24 inches away from you, you are the one who is going to have to advance. Not to mention that one squad running might cause panic throughout your whole army. Also the magic defense is incredibly weak for a 2000 point game.

Lucky24/7
31-01-2008, 10:59
Ahhh but againsta foot slogger army hord with littel magic then this army would do very well......

Swings and roundabouts my freind, swings and roundabouts. :D

Skyldig
31-01-2008, 13:37
Large unit of Eternal guard with BSB and highborn = best pts sink i think ive ever read in a list that claims to be powergaming.

All eggs in one basket is indeed a recognised part of some powergaming lists, all eggs in one crappy fragile unit isnt.

Try your statistics for once.

It's a stubborn unit with BSB reroll, with WS5, ward save 5+, and what, a +7 to combat resolution before the attacks (in effect 3 S3 attacks each, admittable not excellent, but not that shabby vs lightly armoured foes). Even if you bring a unit with a character (which will get challenged with the radiants probably), you'll need something heavily armoured, and capable of dealing out alot of pain, every round of fighting (cancelling lances).

One could figure that Khorne knights would be an answer, but no, eventually they, and most things, loose and flee to combat resolution. You can avoid it, but unless you kill 2 treemans, you get no points as everything else is very WE, hard to catch and yield little points.

As with most lists, you can argue the old "tie it up with unbreakable/cannon fodder troops" etc etc, but it's not a reality when you play vs an opponent that is at least somewhat capable. That is only an argument in theoryhammer, and the fact remains that you need points to win. EG is as such an excellent point denial unit, since even if you flank it, rearcharge it, win combat again and again, it wont die until every last model is dead.

And for crying out loud, it was an EXAMPLE from a personal point of view. It is by no means, the most "gamebreaking" list ever. And I never stated such.

Take notice that this topic wasn't about giving examples of powergaming lists for people to trash them about saying they can be beaten. Of course they can. It is the matter of how hard they're to beat with a large amount of armies, which is the knot to solve. And, might I add, if there are lists that can be called "cheese lists", or not.

And I hold the oppinion that there are indeed "cheese" lists, again not because they're unbeatable, but because they're nearly unbeatable by a very large amount of armies statistically.

aenarion67
01-02-2008, 11:34
its actually quite entertaining to fight a hand gunner gun line. use the tzentch spell and turn em all into horrors. wholala automaticly in combat in which handgunners suck

neo_ebrick
02-02-2008, 22:24
ther's not a lot about the HE. can any one think up a better turny list tthank the generic one i came up with?
teclis 475
korhil 140

core
20 spearmen w/ banner 190
20 spearmen w/ banner 190

special
6 swordmasters w/champ 102
12 swordmasters w/champ 192
lion chariot 140
5 dragon princes 150
6 shadow warriors 96

rare
2 bolt throwers 200
2 eagle 100
-----------------------1975
any advice is nice!

Krootman
03-02-2008, 00:10
I always have the view that you have to modulate your play depending on the situation and your opponant. Doesn't matter whether you are a 'powergamer' or a 'scrub' (I prefer the term moderate) you should agree with your opponant on how to play. If it's a tourney then it's a free for all but different situations require a different approach.

If you ignore the fact that some people look for different things in a game then you'll end up like the guy posting about 'scrubs' (people who can no longer be bothered to play him anymore due to his obsession with winning). He places himself in the 'elite' 0.1% that understand how to play games competitivly. Everybody knows how to play games competitivly it's just that 99.9% of people understand the difference between competitive play and fun.

When I go to play I have my super competitive lists, semi competitive list and then fun lists that I play to mess around with. I find that if you agree to the tempo of the game played then you will never cry cheeze or complain granted somethings are nuts (15 power dice) but you should know what your getting yourself into. If you both know what kind of game your getting yourself into then its all good. Also like everyone said just dont play someone. You dont have to play anyone.

I dont know I just hate the whiny complainers, you can have debates but dont cry whine and be like IM NEVER PLAYING YOU AGAIN....that will not make you friends either. Imo it all boils down to a persons maturity level, which no one is perfect

winkypinky
03-02-2008, 23:21
. can any one think up a better turny list tthank the generic one i came up with?


The only thing I can see which can be considered a cheesy HE list now is Dragon Stompy. With 2 Dragons. And 6*5 Dragon Prinices+ 4 eagles.

The Dragons can come in all forms and shapes (almost) With Dragon mages, Asarnil, Magelord and Prince to chose from and 3 kinds of Dragons to chose from.

But please note that 2 Dragon mages is 11 PD at least.
- If there just was a way to cram in a 3th dragon the list might even be good.

Btw do anyone know if "war of the beard(y)" setup lists are still legal? If then it could be that you could put in enough dragons to reach the magical critical mass were it will be lethal.

---------

The problem with highelves is that they dont have anything truly overpowered (damn you development)
The cool stuff you can come up with now could be done before and was not that good. (2 dragons could be done in 6th) Why should it be good now? (you can now have mages on your dragons which may be good enough but I cant see it as anyway near gamebreaking)

The only powerfull but no were near cheesy HE option in 6th was an all cavalry force with a lot of seers.

Now: Dragon princes have been buffed (enough to make them good?)
- cavalry, it has been removed from core meaning that if you want to field a all cavalry list it will probably contain 20 arches/seaguard and a lot of dragon princes and no "real" support (4 chariots + light cavalry like before)

Storak
04-02-2008, 12:51
hm. searched the thread for the term "orcs".

didn t show up a lot.

looks like i m playing a cheese free army :)

EvC
04-02-2008, 14:52
Black Orc Warboss on Wyvern, semi-cheese ;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-02-2008, 15:14
There should be a 40k equivalent to this, but it'd just turn into this:

"... and let's not forget Falcons."

"Falcons what? They're not overpowered."

"Dude, yes they are *math-hammer, tactics, dissertations on the philosophy of ancient Rome, etc*"

"No they're not, they're AV 12, and I saw a single autocannon take one down first turn five months ago."

"*facepalm*"

*thread gets closed*

EDIT: Having read the "is there really cheese or no?" debate, I am gladdened that the "l2p nublet" crowd is alive and well here as in WoW.

Kukkelukke
04-02-2008, 15:52
I dont think war of the beard lists are still legal, havent seen it anywhere in 7th edition :(

Arhuta
04-02-2008, 18:29
Black Orc Warboss on Wyvern, semi-cheese ;)

How? Elaborate please :P

Second tought, you mean that waagh move?

sephiroth87
04-02-2008, 20:18
hm. searched the thread for the term "orcs".

didn t show up a lot.

looks like i m playing a cheese free army :)

Check the first post.

lparigi34
04-02-2008, 21:36
Black Orc Warboss on Wyvern, semi-cheese ;)

I've found the Savage Orc on Wyvern a bit cheesier!...

If you think it is wise, let your enemy move first, then declare Waaagh, Fly the dice roll forward and you'll have plenty of units at charge reach. Else wait for the 2nd turn...