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Tyron
21-09-2007, 21:48
I have read on the forums about the Emperor making a deal with Chaos and having something to do with gaining power to make the Primachs and then beaking the pact later on.

Can anyone please explain what the deal was exactly and how did he break it?

Cheers!

Progena
21-09-2007, 21:55
The exact details of the deal are obscure. But breaking it was easy. He told the Chaos Gods that he wouldn't mess with the Warp and then he created the Astronomican, the Emperors Light, the Allmighty Flashlight of Omnipotent Flashyness... You know, the beacon that helps Imperial Navigators navigate through the Warp... unsurprisingly the Four Powers weren't so happy about having someone unleash a weapon of mass 'purity' in their realm. And the hilarities ensued.

Tyron
21-09-2007, 22:52
Ah, do you have any sources for this? :)

jma037
21-09-2007, 22:59
Pg34 Relms of Chaos

Nazguire
21-09-2007, 23:13
I have read on the forums about the Emperor making a deal with Chaos and having something to do with gaining power to make the Primachs and then beaking the pact later on.

Can anyone please explain what the deal was exactly and how did he break it?

Cheers!

He also made a deal with the Chaos Gods to help supply the power to create the Primarchs, because technological means weren't going to cut it by itself. According to False Gods anyways.
Then he broke the promise as he damn well should. :p

Savant
21-09-2007, 23:33
He also made a deal with the Chaos Gods to help supply the power to create the Primarchs, because technological means weren't going to cut it by itself. According to False Gods anyways.
Then he broke the promise as he damn well should. :p

Ugh, this kind of thinking is why Chaos doesn't trust the Imperium anymore; because mankind is too deceitful, treacherous and chaotic. All Chaos wanted was to be left alone. ;(

Hmm, I just had a thought. If Chaos' power was used to create the Primarch's, doesn't that technically make them Daemon Princes?

Nazguire
21-09-2007, 23:42
Ugh, this kind of thinking is why Chaos doesn't trust the Imperium anymore; because mankind is too deceitful, treacherous and chaotic. All Chaos wanted was to be left alone. ;(

???
Um...When you're the Gods of War, Decay, Excess and Change, the last thing you want to do when there is a galaxy of trillions of potential worshippers is 'live and let live'. The Emperor knew what he was doing, so did Tzeentch, Khorne, Slaanesh and Nurgle as well. Only problem is that the Emperor was one step ahead of them, hence the desperate measures to isolate and destroy the Primarchs.
The Emperor would have succeeded too in keeping Chaos out of the Imperium if it wasn't for those odd backwater worlds like Davin that corrupted Marines like Erebus, or Typhon.



Hmm, I just had a thought. If Chaos' power was used to create the Primarch's, doesn't that technically make them Daemon Princes?

No because they aren't/weren't Daemons.

RexTalon
21-09-2007, 23:52
Don't believe the lies!!!!

The Emperor was a kind and gentle man, who wanted nothing but the best for the Imperium. It was evil, EVIL Chaos who are the bad guys. Even the Eldar and the Interex (or what ever they were called) knew it.;)

Savant
22-09-2007, 00:00
???
Um...When you're the Gods of War, Decay, Excess and Change,

Martial prowess, Death (which isn't a bad thing - think of a world with no death!), Sensation and Hope. None of those are bad things. More Imperial propaganda, I say!


The Emperor knew what he was doing, so did Tzeentch, Khorne, Slaanesh and Nurgle as well.

Yeah, the Emperor knew what he was doing - betraying Chaos, who up until that point had only wanted to live peacefully and help the Emperor unite humanity. They'd never done anything that you can prove to harm humanity before that point.

Nazguire
22-09-2007, 00:09
Martial prowess, Death (which isn't a bad thing - think of a world with no death!), Sensation and Hope. None of those are bad things. More Imperial propaganda, I say!



Yeah, the Emperor knew what he was doing - betraying Chaos, who up until that point had only wanted to live peacefully and help the Emperor unite humanity. They'd never done anything that you can prove to harm humanity before that point.

Entire worlds being possessed and turned to killing fields?
Possessing psykers and killing them eventually?

These aren't bad things to you?

Tyron
22-09-2007, 00:13
I checked both books and there was nothing even 134 if both books (presuming lost and the damned, slaves to darkness).

Nazguire, could you please sight a source? I have looked everywhere for this info :p

Savant, all the fluff indicates the Chaos gods are out for themselves and never wanted the help the Emperor unite humanity. Got a link for this? :angel:

Savant
22-09-2007, 00:15
Entire worlds being possessed and turned to killing fields?
Possessing psykers and killing them eventually?

These aren't bad things to you?

Any reports about worlds being 'possessed', and 'psykers' exploding were written during the Age of Strife. That was a time of superstition and religion, even loyalist Space Marines during the Great Crusade said none of it was to be believed. The horus heresy was the first reliably recorded incident of daemonic possession or aggresion, and that was directly after The Emperor betrayed Chaos!

EDIT;


Savant, all the fluff indicates the Chaos gods are out for themselves and never wanted the help the Emperor unite humanity. Got a link for this? :angel:

The third HH book, Galaxy in Flames. The chaos gods say (through Erebus, a loyal Space Marine) that all they wanted was to be left alone in the warp, that they had no interest in the Matterium but they would help the Emperor create the Primarchs.

Nazguire
22-09-2007, 00:19
Any reports about worlds being 'possessed', and 'psykers' exploding were written during the Age of Strife. That was a time of superstition and religion, even loyalist Space Marines during the Great Crusade said none of it was to be believed. The horus heresy was the first reliably recorded incident of daemonic possession or aggresion, and that was directly after The Emperor betrayed Chaos!

Loyalist Space Marine also were conditioned to not believe in anything that even remotely looked like it was 'superstitious' and knew next to nothing about the Warp.
Hence Horus' corruption and Fulgrim's possession.

Read some of the IA's sometime about the Great Crusade, particularly the Tyrant Durath. or the Index Malleus on the Lost and the Damned.

Or Hell, even the Chaos Codex.

Vesica
22-09-2007, 00:21
Everything the God-Emperor did was for the benefit of mankind, those foul traitors just got upset because the emperor was drawing worship away from them, and also killing their followers.

Death to the Heretic and Traitor.

Savant
22-09-2007, 00:34
Loyalist Space Marine also were conditioned to not believe in anything that even remotely looked like it was 'superstitious' and knew next to nothing about the Warp.

So you're saying loyalist Space Marines are ignorant and easily duped into following whatever they're told?


Hence Horus' corruption and Fulgrim's possession.

You mean Horus' CHOICE and Fulgrim's TEMPORARY COHABITATION with an entirely benign being? We can both put spin on things to make them seem contrary to what they are. :o


Read some of the IA's sometime about the Great Crusade, particularly the Tyrant Durath. or the Index Malleus on the Lost and the Damned.

Or Hell, even the Chaos Codex.

Hey, we could all win arguments if we had facts, reality or logic on our side.


Everything the God-Emperor did was for the benefit of mankind, those foul traitors just got upset because the emperor was drawing worship away from them, and also killing their followers.

Death to the Heretic and Traitor.

Beh? What 'foul traitors' was the Emperor drawing worship away from? Nobody had betrayed him at the point he betrayed Chaos, and the great crusade hadn't started so he hadn't killed any followers.

Nazguire
22-09-2007, 01:05
So you're saying loyalist Space Marines are ignorant and easily duped into following whatever they're told?
Yeah, I'm saying that Space Marines at the time of Heresy, and 'now', followed their Primarchs to the letter with the exception of a few (Loken, Tarvitz, Torgaddon, Garro being notable ones). So yes. Well done.




You mean Horus' CHOICE and Fulgrim's TEMPORARY COHABITATION with an entirely benign being? We can both put spin on things to make them seem contrary to what they are. :o
The fact it was a Chaos tainted blade to begin with put a new 'spin on things' too. Temporary Cohabitation? yeah for a while, then the daemon basically said "You've got nothing to live for, you're damned anyway, might as well let me take over and commit untold atrocities in your name' Fulgrim being the ignorant twit said 'yeah'.




Hey, we could all win arguments if we had facts, reality or logic on our side.


Yeah I agree, hence why I'm pointing to pieces of background.



Beh? What 'foul traitors' was the Emperor drawing worship away from? Nobody had betrayed him at the point he betrayed Chaos, and the great crusade hadn't started so he hadn't killed any followers.

The Emperor was drawing away potential followers of the Chaos Gods by destroying any belief in the 'supernatural'. And killing worshippers of Chaos in the case of backwater primitive worlds like Davin is also an example of taking away power from Chaos.

Savant
22-09-2007, 01:39
The fact it was a Chaos tainted blade to begin with put a new 'spin on things' too. Temporary Cohabitation? yeah for a while, then the daemon basically said "You've got nothing to live for, you're damned anyway, might as well let me take over and commit untold atrocities in your name' Fulgrim being the ignorant twit said 'yeah'.

Technically Fulgrim still exists in his old body, so it's still cohabitation. And it's still temporary - that daemon isn't going to be in there forever. Maybe just for another 10 thousand years or so.


The Emperor was drawing away potential followers of the Chaos Gods by destroying any belief in the 'supernatural'. And killing worshippers of Chaos in the case of backwater primitive worlds like Davin is also an example of taking away power from Chaos.

He didn't attack Davin (or worlds like it) until after he betrayed Chaos, and I doubt the reason they felt betrayed was because he turned Terra away from believing in the supernatural. It was just one world! Remember, he betrayed Chaos before the Great Crusade.

No, he betrayed them by spreading corruption through their home. Any additional betrayal by needlessly butchering those who willingly chose to follow the Chaos Gods of their own volition was just that - additional betrayal.

Tehkonrad
22-09-2007, 03:59
savant i know your trying your hardest but don't you think theres the teensy weensy possibilite that the gods were LYING when they said they meant no harm
chaos (except Tzneetch) sucks
the imperium (except admech sucks)
orks...now that were its at!!! :D

Nazguire
22-09-2007, 05:30
Technically Fulgrim still exists in his old body, so it's still cohabitation. And it's still temporary - that daemon isn't going to be in there forever. Maybe just for another 10 thousand years or so.

Are you joking?
You think that a malevolent warp entity, that has just possessed through deception the body of a Primarch, who has changed it beyond recognition into the form of a daemon prince, whom has also quashed the very soul of Fulgrim into the farthest recesses of whatever, stopped him from making any decisions of his own with his (now terribly mutated) body, is one day going to just pack up and leave of his volition?:wtf:



He didn't attack Davin (or worlds like it) until after he betrayed Chaos, and I doubt the reason they felt betrayed was because he turned Terra away from believing in the supernatural. It was just one world! Remember, he betrayed Chaos before the Great Crusade.

No, he betrayed them by spreading corruption through their home. Any additional betrayal by needlessly butchering those who willingly chose to follow the Chaos Gods of their own volition was just that - additional betrayal.

He turned the Imperium <- away frmo the 'Supernatural' of Chaos. Terra was one world, yes, but then he turned the Imperium from the supernatural.

And while we're speaking of spreading corruption throughout the Warp, the Chaos Gods ARE corruption of the Warp.

RexTalon
22-09-2007, 05:33
Beh? What 'foul traitors' was the Emperor drawing worship away from? Nobody had betrayed him at the point he betrayed Chaos, and the great crusade hadn't started so he hadn't killed any followers.

You're kidding right? Have you read Fulgrim yet? We killed a whole planet of Slaneshi followers. And there is no solid proof that the Emperor betrayed anyone. All the evidence you have was written by liars and heretics. The word of warp spawned filth cannot be trusted.

Celsius009
22-09-2007, 05:56
but don't you think theres the teensy weensy possibilite that the gods were LYING when they said they meant no harm

Just a cool quote I read from a novel on 40K:

"For every truth a daemon tells nine lies."

It applies here, because Chaos do, in fact, lie. Frequently. Of course they're going to say otherwise to whatever the emperor says/said. They wouldnt be...y'know...evil, if they didnt.

And if they just want to be left alone, why do they keep trying to come out of the Warp? Just stay in there, and we will stop laying the smackdown on all yall as***.

And hey, I even have proof! The other day, I was watching a game between Chaos and Tau. A unit a Khorne Berzerkers came within 6" of a firewarrior unit during the movement phase, and said he wouldnt assault them. Do you know what happened? He did.

Now if those had been say Blood Angels, Orks, or Tyranid, they woulda been all like "...yo" and kept on going.

That settles it. Chaos are bad people.

jb85
22-09-2007, 10:32
savant i know your trying your hardest but don't you think theres the teensy weensy possibilite that the gods were LYING when they said they meant no harm

I'm afraid savant is a heretic and there is no other choice than an Inquisition purge of N/E England :p Sorry for any loyalists that get caught up in the purge but that is the price we must pay for eternal vigilance.

stormblade
22-09-2007, 11:40
Ugh, this kind of thinking is why Chaos doesn't trust the Imperium anymore; because mankind is too deceitful, treacherous and chaotic. All Chaos wanted was to be left alone. ;(


- They ripped a mighty large hole in the Materium for someone who just wants to be left alone(Eye of Terror)

Progena
22-09-2007, 12:17
Well, Chaos wouldn't be so unbelievable cool if they weren't the most evil power in a galaxy filled with evil powers. Evil for evil's sake. Chaos wants to rule the material plane, not destroy it. To destroy all sentient life on one plane would mean the death of both planes. Without bodies for the souls of the Warp, the Warp would die, and without souls for the bodies of the material universe all life would perish (and the C'Tan too as they wouldn't have any life to feed on). Mankind (and every other race in the galaxy) is inherently evil (yes, even the Tau with their imperialsistic assimilation doctrines, for exactly those reasons) therefore the Warp-entities, who are a reflection of those lifeforms of material plane, are evil. The material plane is also an reflection of the Warp and therefore the material races become increasingly evil. It's a neverending circle of delicious malevolence.

stormblade
22-09-2007, 12:29
The C'tan wouldn't perish the can feed of the stars and such- life just tasets better.:chrome:

Lastie
22-09-2007, 12:33
This thread reminds me what was so cool about 40K, and what should still be what is so cool about 40K: there's two sides to every story, no one's right, everything's told in biased, and the real truth will (should) never be known.


Well, Chaos wouldn't be so unbelievable cool if they weren't the most evil power in a galaxy filled with evil powers.

Chaos being evil is an oxymoron; Chaos is everything. Trying to bind it with simple Human morality should be akin to trying to tie up the ocean with a bit of string. It's a wargame, so we generally see Chaos through the eyes and actions of those who fight for it. The otherwise abysmal Traitor General by Dan Abnett has some rather cool scenes featuring Chaos followers terraforming worlds for Human inhabitation, and other mundane activities. When you have worshippers who are nothing but genetically engineered hyno-indoctrined killing machines (otherwise known as Chaos Space Marines) who know nothing but committing mass acts of genocide (as all good Space Marines should), then how would Chaos be reflected?

Now, a Chaos-worshipping cake maker would be a different story ...

Progena
22-09-2007, 12:37
The C'tan wouldn't perish the can feed of the stars and such- life just tasets better.:chrome:

Ah, but that would mean they'd have to abandon their shells of living metal. And stars are not in unlimited supply. They dwindle and die as time passes by even when not consumed by the Star Gods. Mortal life is a renewable source of nurishment as long as they're rationed.

Tyron
22-09-2007, 13:40
So I take it no one has any sources for my original questions? :p

stormblade
22-09-2007, 15:35
Chaos being evil is an oxymoron; Chaos is [B]everything[I].


- You cannot possibly prove that- one might say everything is order and chaos is an illusion that we have because we do not understand the universe.


Progena:Mortal life is a renewable source of nourishment as long as they're rationed.

- How could you possibly cultivate life without the heat of the stars, besides if C'tan are the masters of the materium they might have the power to re-invigorate stars- longshot though

And sadly I've not got any sorcies for the original question.

Stormblade

Progena
22-09-2007, 16:16
Progena:Mortal life is a renewable source of nourishment as long as they're rationed.

- How could you possibly cultivate life without the heat of the stars, besides if C'tan are the masters of the materium they might have the power to re-invigorate stars- longshot though

I said that if the Warp was destroyed, then all life on the material plane would perish. If all life in the galaxy dissapeared then the C'tan would have to feed on stars to survive (which they could've done for a looong time), but suns are a limited and unrenewable source of nurishment and so the C'tan would eventually starve.

The C'tan wouldn't then be able to reintroduce life to worlds to save themselves, only the Old Ones could create life and they used the Warp (which would already be gone right?) and that is anathema to C'tan.

Follow my train of thought?

Also if the Star Gods could reinvigorate dead stars they would just have stayed put when they'd eaten a star and do exactly that and then consume it again.

Life could perhaps be able to exist without souls. The C'tan's goal seems to be to separate mankind from their souls in the Warp thus making men into mindless cattle. Pariahs and Untuchable seem to manage without souls.

Lastie
22-09-2007, 16:42
- You cannot possibly prove that- one might say everything is order and chaos is an illusion that we have because we do not understand the universe.


True, I can't prove anything about a fictional alternate plane of existence within a fictional future setting. I can, however, point out that calling Chaos evil was assign Order (or a concept of) to Chaos. Which is a little silly.

stormblade
22-09-2007, 17:17
The C'tan wouldn't then be able to reintroduce life to worlds to save themselves, only the Old Ones could create life and they used the Warp (which would already be gone right?) and that is anathema to C'tan.



- No they couldn't. Life(all life that we are familiar with) is heavily dependent on the heat of the stars and couldn't survive without it so when all stars die out so will all life(sooner actually)- this was my original point.

Lastie:
True, I can't prove anything about a fictional alternate plane of existence within a fictional future setting. I can, however, point out that calling Chaos evil was assign Order (or a concept of) to Chaos. Which is a little silly.

- I know I was just correcting your semantics.

Fingol23
22-09-2007, 18:15
@Tyron I would say the horus heresy series is you best bet.

Lastie
22-09-2007, 18:49
[quote=stormblade;1936297 I know I was just correcting your semantics.[/quote]

I was being semantic? In what way (out of curiosity)?

stormblade
22-09-2007, 19:02
I was being semantic? In what way (out of curiosity)?

- Hmm, aren't we all being semantic just by using language to communicate- or do perhaps have some misconception about what semantics mean(this is possible as I'm not a native speaker).

I was only referring to the part in which you said that chaos is everything- it 'sounded' as you were saying that there is nothing but Chaos which I deemed impossible to know for certain.

ryng_sting
22-09-2007, 19:36
This all rests on the assumption that Chaos was telling the truth.

Let's stop and consider the likelihood of that for a moment.

Kage2020
22-09-2007, 22:05
Indeed. Or the very premise of a "deal with Chaos" in the first place.

Kage

Lastie
23-09-2007, 20:10
This all rests on the assumption that Chaos was telling the truth.

Which begs the question: 'what is truth?'

Kage2020
23-09-2007, 21:44
And the answer, that GW seems to share, "Whatever I say is."

Kage

mistformsquirrel
23-09-2007, 22:00
The... heresy...

My ears are bleeding! Make the bad people stop blaspheming the Emperor! <T.T>

<;_;> Baby Sanguinous is crying!

Lastie
24-09-2007, 09:33
And the answer, that GW seems to share, "Whatever I say is."

To which the fluff nut replies "I substitue your canon and replace it with my own!" :D

Today's truth is next edition's Illuminati.

Progena
24-09-2007, 15:22
Baby Sanguinous is crying!

And if he'd crashlanded on any planet in the Imperium in the 41st millenium, he'd be torched on a stick as a mutant (turns out only people who live with mutants every day can tell mutants and angelic primarchs apart apparently :eyebrows:).

Arcane_Blade
24-09-2007, 16:07
Ok guys, step back for a minute here.

They're the Chaos Gods. One of them is a master of deceit, lies and trickery and the rest aren't all that good either.

Somehow, just somehow, they might have been lieing.

And when you're the bad ass guys who are trying to convince your nemesis' son to join you and destroy everything he and his beloved father have ever built, thus damaging Humanity as a whole and ruining the dream of a Human galaxy, you wouldn't start a conversation like this:

Tzeentch: "Hey, Horus, we want to talk to you for a minute."
Horus: "About what foul scum?"
Slaanesh: Well, y'see, it's about your dad."
Horus: "Yeah...."
Nurgle: "He's been doing a few things that have been annoying for us lately and..."
Khorne: "Cut the crap guys. We're the bad guys, he's the good guy. We want you to join us. You know, cause a fuss between your warriors and in the process, kill your beloved father and leader, the Emperor, halting Human progress and the conquest of the galaxy. Oh, and if you die, I'll be feasting upon your soul. Interested?"
Tzeentch: "Nice one Khorne. Real smooth."

Fingol23
24-09-2007, 16:53
Who could turn down an offer like that. also there is one small problem al 4 chaos gods together and not trying to kill each other?

Arcane_Blade
24-09-2007, 18:13
Who could turn down an offer like that. also there is one small problem al 4 chaos gods together and not trying to kill each other?

I'd be working together with my 3 evil rivals if my ass looked like it may be handed to me.

iseeleadpeople
24-09-2007, 21:32
there was a passage at the front of the roc that all the chaos gods were actually aspects of one god, oooh i feel im gonna be hurt now, hides away

Iracundus
24-09-2007, 21:39
Punctuate and capitalize please. It makes your posts more readable.

Secondly, the existence of a Chaos Undivided "over-god" has never been proven or stated canonically. Some followers of Chaos believe there is one but that doesn't mean they know or believe what is true. Quite simply there is no 3rd party evidence either way, only what the Chaos followers believe. Please differentiate between what characters in the universe believe and what is stated by a 3rd party omniscient narrator.

=Angel=
24-09-2007, 22:11
If you read the HH books, you'll notice them reading a book about prehistoric (to them, to us: future post apocalyptic) Earth-

and theres records of Sorcery and daemonic armies.

And the whole point of the Emperor's existance and creation (via mass suicide of the remaining magi) , if you go back to our prehistoric days, was to continue the fight against Chaos.

Chaos: bad.
Emperor: good
Imperium: Neccesary evil, to bring about the continued existence of man.

DantesInferno
25-09-2007, 00:44
Secondly, the existence of a Chaos Undivided "over-god" has never been proven or stated canonically. Some followers of Chaos believe there is one but that doesn't mean they know or believe what is true. Quite simply there is no 3rd party evidence either way, only what the Chaos followers believe. Please differentiate between what characters in the universe believe and what is stated by a 3rd party omniscient narrator.

People believe in a god of Chaos Undivided, and this posited god appears to be able to give gifts. Is it really that different from what we really know about the four major gods of Chaos?

LoneSniperSG
25-09-2007, 02:11
This thread reminds me what was so cool about 40K, and what should still be what is so cool about 40K: there's two sides to every story, no one's right, everything's told in biased, and the real truth will (should) never be known.


... Only -two- sides? Seems to be about six sides to me. Imperium. Chaos (counts as FOUR for its insanity) and somehow Orks wandered into the discussion.


if I may pitch my two pieces.. Chaos is chaos.. as stated. They don't blatantly lie (They don't tell their followers they won't be turned into weirdo creatures), but they kind of skirt truth. How many idiot cultists think they'll be turned into bags of rotting meat when they decided to worship nurgle?


On the matter of the Horus Heresy, I'd like to chip in something here. What I've observed, even as a loyalist Space Wolf, is that the Emporer and Chaos were BOTH responsible for the heresy. Emporer, bless his name, was an idiot, and did not provide adequate warning of the warp, in my opinion. And he shrugged off galactic responsibility onto poor Horus very very quickly. The only people who seemed to notice this were Horus' captains and Sanguinius, and only Sanguinius could actually help with such problems.

stormblade
25-09-2007, 06:44
On the matter of the Horus Heresy, I'd like to chip in something here. What I've observed, even as a loyalist Space Wolf, is that the Emporer and Chaos were BOTH responsible for the heresy. Emporer, bless his name, was an idiot, and did not provide adequate warning of the warp, in my opinion. And he shrugged off galactic responsibility onto poor Horus very very quickly. The only people who seemed to notice this were Horus' captains and Sanguinius, and only Sanguinius could actually help with such problems.

- I really do not know why you people bother with this- Is the Heresy Horus's or The Emperor's fault? stuff.

- Do what everybody else(or perhaps just me) does- blame the Eldar:evilgrin:

(It is, after all, their kinkiness that tore a hole in the Materium and enabled the Dark Gods to have so much power over the galaxy)

Shiakou
25-09-2007, 07:17
- I really do not know why you people bother with this- Is the Heresy Horus's or The Emperor's fault? stuff.

- Do what everybody else(or perhaps just me) does- blame the Eldar:evilgrin:

(It is, after all, their kinkiness that tore a hole in the Materium and enabled the Dark Gods to have so much power over the galaxy)

But kinkiness is such an admirable tra-I mean, understandable flaw. ;)