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Darius Rhiannon
18-03-2005, 05:58
Well, no development forum is complete without a High Elf Revision thread so I decided to inform the internet community about the current HE revision effort of Asur.org.

We are currently playtesting this to create an alternative to all cavalry. We will submit to GW when we have concluded playtesting but are realistic enought to realise that GW will most likely dismiss it out of hand.

So here we go.

Revision Goals: To make HE infantry viable.
Those units under revision are.
SpearElves.
Archers.
Sea Guard.
Phoenix Guard.

SpearElves receive Heavy Armour.
Archers receive Citizen Levy (aka Shoot in two ranks)
Sea Guard Receive both Citizen Levy and Heavy Armour
Phoenix Guard, have unit strenght 2.

So what do you think. (Hold on a moment while I put on a flame proof suit)

glimli
18-03-2005, 06:13
well i think heavy armour should be option to be paid for. all in all good ideas. dont forget the scrapping of i@c also i think phoenix gaurd should lose fear and get a rule allowing them to choose whether they pass or fail any leadership test. i think this would reflect them being implaccable warrior monks with knowledge of the future

maxwell123
18-03-2005, 10:21
SpearElves receive Heavy Armour.
Archers receive Citizen Levy (aka Shoot in two ranks)
Sea Guard Receive both Citizen Levy and Heavy Armour
Phoenix Guard, have unit strenght 2.


Hmm...First two options sound good.

Last two are not so good. Sea Guards shouldn't have heavy armour. Phoenix Guard should not be given unit strength 2. For the purposes of a revision fix as opposed to a complete rewrite, just drop PG 2 pts.

Remember, if you are aiming for a 6th edition White Dwarf update similar to DE one, changes need to be relatively minor.

anarchistica
18-03-2005, 21:56
SpearElves receive Heavy Armour.
Archers receive Citizen Levy (aka Shoot in two ranks)
Sea Guard Receive both Citizen Levy and Heavy Armour
Phoenix Guard, have unit strenght 2.

So what do you think.
I think it's crap. Spears, halberds and bows are inherently broken, they need a general fix, this would help the units alot. On top of that, Phoenix Guard should be Unbreakable (unit size 10-30) instead of Causing Fear since that makes alot more sense. They have seen the future, including their own death. If they show up for a battle where they know they are going to die, why would they try to run from it? Seaguard should also cost 1 point less, ignore the penalty for moving and shooting and one unit should be allowed a magic banner.

That's just me though, i'm silly.

maxwell123
20-03-2005, 02:56
Spears, halberds and bows are inherently broken, they need a general fix, this would help the units alot.

Well, spears aren't as broken as the latter two, but I do agree they all need reviewing.


Phoenix Guard should be Unbreakable (unit size 10-30) instead of Causing Fear since that makes alot more sense. They have seen the future, including their own death. If they show up for a battle where they know they are going to die, why would they try to run from it?

Actually, I'm more in favour of Immunity to psychology and a Divine Aura (+1 combat resolution) for Phoenix Guards. I've always imagined Phoenix Guards as being extremely resilient and mysterious elves with a certain aura about them (different to the Vampire aura, but similar in effect on the battlefield).

boogle
20-03-2005, 04:24
I'm totally against Heavy Armour for core troops. maybe drop them in points like their Druchii cousins

I don't see much wrong with Halberds to be honest (maybe Armour Piercing), bows have always bee S3 and worked fine, so i can see the problem to be honest

The Undying
20-03-2005, 04:58
My ideas, pay for Heavy Armor. It would help with them being defense and all.
I like the idea of Phoenix Guad being Unbreakable, they do know the future and all (good point anarchistica).

But, Seaguard shouldn't have just the bonus abilities of the Spears and Archers. They are the military who are on at all times, more expirienced in battle. I suggest an increase in leadership. Or just lower their points cost...

Also, White Lions should be lowered in cost. No one takes them so make them takeable (like the Black Guard for DE).

Inquisitor DreaxIV
20-03-2005, 07:37
Spearelves having heavy armour is a bit different... It'd have to cost alot more to give them that.

I definetly agree that Sea Guard need heavy armour though, and the archers should be able to fight in 2 ranks. Maybe a slight cost raise by 1 or 2 points for it.

Artemis_Quinn
20-03-2005, 14:23
Personally, I see no problems with the way the high elves are equipped currently, or the rules for that matter. I think that spear alves are hardly useable because they are just too many points, and the same goes with archers. Currently, I believe a spear elf runs at 12 points right? Well, That's a nit too much for a extra rank in combat for me. I say drop then to 10 points, then they are the same points cost as DOW pikemen, with differnt advantages. They don't have pikes but they do have better initiative and better weapon skill, not to menion that they do still get to fight in 3 ranks. As for archers I would probably do a similar thing. Drop them to 11 points ( I think surrently they are running at 13 (sorry I haven't looked at the high elf book in quite some time). At eleven points they are useful and cost the same number of points as dark elf warriors with repeater crossbows. Then some sort of balance is achieved in the process of trying to make these units more useful. Not as cheap as an empire spearmen, but not more expensive than a DOW pikeman.

As for pheonix guard I really don't know much about them, but fear for any unit in a high elf army is sort of silly to me. Maybe they should not only make them cause fear but make them immune to panic as well (make it permanent instead of just against dark elves). Against Dark elves maybe the rules could be axpanded to say that they are unbreakable. And depending on the points cost and equipment options they currently have (I know neither) maybe they could use some tinkering. I'll look at the book and get back to ya on this.

Bob the destroyer
20-03-2005, 14:28
Spear elves would be better if the cost less even just 1 point. the HE have the most expensive core units making the hard to take.

Archers shooting in two ranks would be very nice. people rarly take them I would take them more offten if they could shoot in 2 ranks.

seaguard, where to start to expensive yes but again maybe by 1 point, and alow them Heavy armor for 1 point would be good. 14 plain 15 w/Heavy armor.


One thing that HE could use is a swarm, like a magic swarm or someting. a expendale unit of some kind most every other army has some of those. do I lose my 11pt spearmen or my 12pt archers or a more expensive unit. if I was skaven I would just though out my 2pt slaves, who cares about them.

The other thing that I notice is my swordmaster get shot to pices, in the past the could block arrow with the great weapons bring that back or let me buy a shiled (yes I know I could not use it in c.c.)

but we can complaine all day long about stuff and GW will ignore us till we die.
but i put my 2cents in.


Just a thought. I love my HE and will keep playing them.


Bob "the destroyer" elf

Eldacar
21-03-2005, 09:11
Ah, Maxwell's here. :cool:

On the Spearmen not getting Heavy Armour thing, have a look at the Spearman model. Then look at, say, a goblin. They both have Light Armour. So rags and a bit of leather is just as good as finely forged armour that covers most of the Spearman's body?
I personally would like to see them at 10 or 11 points. With the Heavy Armour, I'm not sure. Looking at the models, they should have it, but I don't know exactly the points they should be to have it.


As for pheonix guard I really don't know much about them, but fear for any unit in a high elf army is sort of silly to me. Maybe they should not only make them cause fear but make them immune to panic as well (make it permanent instead of just against dark elves). Against Dark elves maybe the rules could be axpanded to say that they are unbreakable. And depending on the points cost and equipment options they currently have (I know neither) maybe they could use some tinkering. I'll look at the book and get back to ya on this.

The PG are S3 elves with Halberds and Heavy Armour, that Cause Fear and are 16 points. I would like to see them being Unbreakable, since not only would that make them a lot less overpriced, it would be a lot more fluffy.

As for I@C, nuke it. Period.

Kul
21-03-2005, 14:58
ehm....
the current speamen are 11 points, and no-body dares to charge them, because they'll get slaughtered by a unit fighting in 3 ranks. Giving them HA for 10 points would be beardy.

The DE mini's are just as armored as the HE ones, and don't have HA either. And they can't fight in 2 ranks. So I'd say keep the current rules, and then for 10.
@bob the destroyer: WE have more expensive core ;)

about the PG, one point cheaper and unbreakable or fear, not both.

Artemis_Quinn
22-03-2005, 20:14
After looking at the army book I definitely feel the phoenix guard need some work done. I am thinking maybe keep them at the same points cost but add the immune to panic thing as I suggested earlier and to also make a new item option, called simply a phoenix cloak. This will more or less be a high elf version of the sea dragon cloak. This way the unit actually can make it across he field of battle. Maybe not so much of a rip-off as I made it sound but make thier own version of the sea dragon cloak.

Sgt John Keel
29-03-2005, 18:10
The DE mini's are just as armored as the HE ones, and don't have HA either. And they can't fight in 2 ranks. So I'd say keep the current rules, and then for 10.


Well, they used that as argument to give the Executioners heavy armour.

Anyway, I say to hell with revisions. They need a complete rewrite. No amount of changing points for the Spearmen will make anyone take them. Either you take them now, or you don't. To be completely fair, three things are seldom used. The Sea Guard, the Phoenix Guard and the White Lions. While the Archers are nowhere as useful as they could be, people use them. If there will be any kind of revision, it will be to sell more units of the less used ones. Remember what Gav said. It's the models which dictate the order of rewrites, not the rules.

So, I'm all for a complete rewrite by us here. It won't matter now, not even in the near future, but maybe they will consider some of it when they remake the army book. And I'm sure you want more then than just better Archers, White Lions, Phoenix Guard and Lothern Sea Guard, no?

/Adrian

Akuma
01-04-2005, 15:30
High Elves players wanting revision make me seek :rolleyes: but on the other hand

1) Leve the spearman - the rules are bed no the unit witch leads us to
2) Seaguards - when spears get corrected and HE get citizen lavy for archers and thay will if wood elve archers will skirmish ( my guess is that they didnt want to duplicate the rules so thay waited on what they want with WE ) so the see guards would fight from 3 ( maybe with new spear rules always in I order ) and shoot from 2 is this realy that bad for current price ???
3) PG - Unbreakable for elf regiment - unlikly but would be fun - but US 2 is also nice for them i would say OR Unbreakable and dont couse fear.
4) I@C only working on the same level ( so if you have 1 lord he will always be general )

just my 2 zlote

Delicious Soy
04-04-2005, 07:35
First off, apologies to those who use Omen if I steal ideas while I repost much of my own ;)

Overall the problem with reviews is how should we percieve the army? Elves should be IMO divided thusly (shameless repost):

DE = Heavy attack focus

Personally I think they aren't too bad in this regard. I don't mind the spears myself as in Corsairs, they have a Core offensive unit.

WE = Stealth, guerilla attacks.

I think the new list should be nearly all skirmishers. Glade guard to me shouldn't be a ranked up unit but bow skirmishers with a HW/Shield combo. Medium Cav at best (Lance, Light Armour, No Barding, Shield). Only the elite guardian unit should always be ranked, everyone else should use rules similar to the herd rule from BOC.

HE = Defensive Focus

Special Rules should be defesive (stubborn, Immune to Psych, Unbreakable?). I think this should be expressed in the infantry though as Cavalry should be used as the Counter punch once the line has held. Any alterations to the list should be inclined towards giving impetus to taking such units. In regard to Spearelves, maybe something similiar to the Balck Guardians in 40k could be implemented where Spear units taken as Mandatory core get the option of taking heavy armour, being the regular HE units rather than the citzen levy.

Bows I think shouldn't be given anything similiar to the WE, but should be reduced in cost to make them a viable support unit.

For I@C I always thought you should have the opportunity to nominate your genral first (on a 4+, 3+ if a lord choice). Personally I don't really care if it stays or goes, but if it did stay it should be modified.

Ex-guest
05-05-2005, 04:56
My High Elf Revison proposals :) :


Army Special Rules:

Intrigue at court - Changed so that it only affects Lord Level Characters. Roll a D6 for each Lord Level Character in the Army. The roll that was highest is the army General.

Honours (optional change):
- No Longer counts towards magic item limit. All points costs for Honours increased by 5pts, including the Pure of Heart Honour (ie now cost 5 pts and is still mandatory).
- Swordmaster Honour confers +1WS in addition to what is already listed.


Unit Changes:



LORDS

All - Stay same.



CORE

Archers- EITHER:

1. Reduce cost to 10pts.

-OR-

2. May shoot in two Ranks.

Spearelves - Stay same.

Lothern Sea Guard - Reduce cost from 15 to 13 points per model.

Silver Helms - Stay same.



SPECIAL

Ellyrian Reavers - Cost reduced from 18 to 14 pts per model.
Bow upgrade costs +4pts, or +3pts if exchanged for spears.

Dragon Princes - Stay same.

Swordmasters - Stay same, OR balance to other elite units:

Increase cost from 13 to 15pts.
Additional Special Rule: unit gains 5+ ward save against shooting (not Magic Missles). Only Characters with the Swordmaster Honour benefit from this save, and only while in a unit of Swordmasters.

Shadow Warriors - Increase BS to 5 (6 for Shadow-walker).

Tiranoc Chariot - Stay same.



RARE

Phoenix Guard - Replace FEAR special rule with Immune To Psychology.
New Weapon - Ceremonial Halberds, count as both halberds and spears.
Fight in Three Ranks.

Repeater Bolt Thrower - Cost Reduced from 100 to 90pts

White Lions - Either replace Bodyguard rule with Stubborn -OR- give them Heavy Armour.

Eagles - Stay same

Moi
11-05-2005, 04:19
My High Elf Revison proposals :) :


Army Special Rules:

Intrigue at court - Changed so that it only affects Lord Level Characters. Roll a D6 for each Lord Level Character in the Army. The roll that was highest is the army General.

No, Intrigue at Court is the only random thing in the High Elf list. Each list needs some randomness, in my opinion.



Honours (optional change):
- No Longer counts towards magic item limit. All points costs for Honours increased by 5pts, including the Pure of Heart Honour (ie now cost 5 pts and is still mandatory).
- Swordmaster Honour confers +1WS in addition to what is already listed.

No, Honours are perfect the way they are. Pure of Heart should still be free as it is mandatory. Also, HE heroes and lords strike most targets on 3+ so a +1 in WS would be useless. The Swordmaster Honour is good enough already.



Unit Changes:

LORDS

All - Stay same.



Agreed.



CORE

Archers- EITHER:

1. Reduce cost to 10pts.

-OR-

2. May shoot in two Ranks.

Spearelves - Stay same.

Lothern Sea Guard - Reduce cost from 15 to 13 points per model.

Silver Helms - Stay same.


The Lothern Sea Guards should get to shoot in two ranks as the archers do for the same point cost (15 points) OR be reduced in cost to 13 points. All other changes I agree with.



SPECIAL

Ellyrian Reavers - Cost reduced from 18 to 14 pts per model.
Bow upgrade costs +4pts, or +3pts if exchanged for spears.


No, makes them too cheap. Keep in mind their great manoeuvrability. I agree with your upgrade costs though, but base cost should remain the same. On the other hand, would Ellyrian Reavers see more use if you could take two units for a single special slot with no changes? Just an idea...



Dragon Princes - Stay same.

Swordmasters - Stay same, OR balance to other elite units:

Increase cost from 13 to 15pts.
Additional Special Rule: unit gains 5+ ward save against shooting (not Magic Missles). Only Characters with the Swordmaster Honour benefit from this save, and only while in a unit of Swordmasters.


I agree with Dragon Princes, but Swordmasters do not need ward saves against missiles (I don't want to see them cut right through a ballista bolt with their swords!). What they need is a greater save. I liked this idea of them blocking arrows with their swords. Make them use this ability in close combat to so that they always count as fighting with hand weapon and shield when in close combat AND get a +1 to armor saves against shooting (so they're at +4 Sv all the time except against magic).



Shadow Warriors - Increase BS to 5 (6 for Shadow-walker).

Tiranoc Chariot - Stay same.


Agreed, except Tiranoc Chariots should get an option for scythes instead of more horses.



RARE

Phoenix Guard - Replace FEAR special rule with Immune To Psychology.
New Weapon - Ceremonial Halberds, count as both halberds and spears.
Fight in Three Ranks.


I like the idea, but I don't think they should get to fight in three ranks, then. Just two ranks would be good enough for me. I'd like them to be Unbreakable, though.



Repeater Bolt Thrower - Cost Reduced from 100 to 90pts

White Lions - Either replace Bodyguard rule with Stubborn -OR- give them Heavy Armour.

Eagles - Stay same


For the Repeater Bolt Thrower, I find mine useful enough for their point cost (BS 4 with access to Curse of arrow attraction AND the Seer Honour, which makes HE shooting more effective, especially for RBTs). For White Lions, I'd say do both as they are a rare unit costing a whole 13 points per head. They should have some impact. And reduce the cost of Great Eagles to 30 or 40; they're never worth their points otherwise, in my experience. Ok, make them 40 points apiece.

That would be my own tweakings to the list.

Eldacar
11-05-2005, 12:21
The following is the result of a revision effort undertaken by the members of Asur.org. I took this from a post made on Warhammer.org found at:
http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=6116&sid=d1bf0498ab34e159362041de9991e99d

It is the complete list of changes we have come up with after many months testing and throwing ideas around. Since it is too long to post here, the link above will take you to it.


And reduce the cost of Great Eagles to 30 or 40; they're never worth their points otherwise, in my experience. Ok, make them 40 points apiece.
Eagles are the best value unit in the High Elf list. Making them cost any less is overpowering them. They are one of the best assets a Asur general can have, providing he uses them right.

Yanos
19-05-2005, 13:51
Heh, am I the only one who has noticed why SeaGuard don't get heavy armour?

SeaGuard??

I know ithilmar is supposed to be lightweight, but even an ithilmar corset would send you down to the briney deep if you went and fell off your Hawkship :D !


I think we can all agree that White Lions should be a Special choice, with some rules tweaking/HA applied, and SwordMasters a Rare choice. That would surely get more of the models bought. SwordMasters are so damn groovy that not even making them a Rare slot will affect their popularity.

No other scouts in the game (bar the Rare Waywatchers) get a BS increase, so there's really no reason why HE's standard scouts should.

gortexgunnerson
19-05-2005, 15:18
I think the main reason White lions and PG are not used is they are rare and repeater bolt throwers are so good! I have played HE for over a decade and anyone who ever played the last 4th edition book will know that shoot in 2 ranks is far too strong and should never come back.

HE are an effective army for all infantry (+ mayb2 an eagle or 2) and is pretty mucht he onoly way I ever play them, but unfourtunately you are generally resorting to Lv4 book of hoeth and 3 level 2s with both rings! a few lines of archers, 4 bolts throwers and unit of swordmasters! Which is a pretty dull game but is very effective! Also the new sea guard list played correctly is virtually unstopable so I think to argue that infantry only is unplayable is wrong. However playing either of these lists will get you rapidly disliked In the GT final 2 players almost left the table after the pregame round of shooting from my seaguard lol so am going back to my faithful dwarfs this year

I think the main problem lies in the large number of rare choices. If you moved Bolt throwers to special (but made them 1-2 per 1000 point, so a peusdo-rare) then much more players would take WL and PG.

But I can admit that WL and PG are abit crap becuase they will never generally meet combat due to T3, like executioners they just blown to pieces for easy points. Maybe HE could do with anti shooting spell like a mist spell to prevent shooting against units swap it for fourtune is fickle (as too similar to drain magic) and have it so you can prevent shooting or gives -2 to hit when targetting a specific unit. This would allow elite foot HE units to actually make it across the battle field and hence improve their worth.

boogle
19-05-2005, 15:45
the 'mist' spell seems a good idea, but also giving WL Heavy Armour would help a lot too, as would something rather than Fear for PG

Eldacar
21-05-2005, 12:19
HE are an effective army for all infantry
...
No, they're not. You have to be an extremely good tactician to get the most out of High Elf infantry. Since most all-infantry armies are overpriced (Spearmen are too expensive, Archers are too expensive, LSG are too expensive, etc, etc, etc...), you have to be very good with tactics to be able to use them right. Generally, you're at a disadvantage. Even Spearmen only have a 4+AS in combat, which can be fairly effectively neutralised by a good cavalry charge.

The biggest problems with the HE as I see it are the I@C rule, and the problems with Core Infantry. As it is, cavalry is the best option with the HE, and is the typical WAAC army. Fixing the Core Infantry should make infantry armies more attractive.

gortexgunnerson
21-05-2005, 18:43
Just because they are expensiev doesn't make them ineffective. But I agree all infantry is a tactically difficult option then all calavry and charge. But high I and increased move means that against infantry you can choose your fights. Infantry based armies rely heavily on shooting and magic for most of their success but this can be very effective.

You have to play shadow games and pick your fights carefully, I genereally use well armed units such as swordmasters as punch units. 10" charge is still pretty impressive and with ranks and double handed weapons these guys will cream most things. Of key importance is to only fight if you are sure of winning, because as pointed out by Eldacar even spearmen only have 4+AS which means as soon as you are bogged down your T3 infantry will get eaten. I genereally play a 2000 infantry army with 3 or 4 wizards 4 bolt throwers or 2 bolt and 2 great eagles with 3 units of 10 archers and a unit of swordmaster with banner of sorcery. With a unit of shadow warriors or 2 running around as protective units for my mages.

I deploy my archers back off the 12" line and then walk them backwards during the game. They genereally die but will take offensive units most game to wipe out a 120 points, bolt throwers are spread wide to cover each other from fast calavry and the like. Mages are hide in cover or shadow warrior units if they are LoS spells or using the ring of fury. Swordmaster go generally off to one side of the archers prefferable in aposition that cannot be directly attacked (i.e with a wood in between the unit and his side of the table) as this forces calavry to expose flanks to the bolt throwers. The idea is they can move out to threaten units attacking the archer/bolt thrower position or to hunt down units after my missile/magic combo has wipened out the targets that will rip the swordmaster apart. The worse result I have had with this is a draw as the wizards take up most of the points and well played should avoid getting them killed too often.

HOWEVER this set up would proabbly be more effective with a unit of Drangon Princes carrying the banner of sorcery and a load of little silver helm units combined with 4 bolt throwers and 3/4 wizards. But I like High Elf archers think they are the personification of High Elves and have never been a fane of the idea of elven calavry. I also love swordmasters, though miss the -1 to hit for them swatting arrows out of the air from the old rules. Thats a special rule with character!

Writing this I ahve come to agree with some of the points about infantry being unviable, as the arm/idea above mainly involves 4 bolt throwers and lots of magic to kill the oppenent rather then infantry. But although increasing infantry power of high Elves would make them more combat viable with princes and heros, when combined with magic you would just create yet another undeafeatable army such as Sea guard which is worse than having infantry armies abit weak as it will just draw in a load of power gamers and create the high elf version of skaven SAD where you sit back with bolt throwers and magic and rip anything that moves to pieces

Eldacar
22-05-2005, 01:17
I run an all-infantry army on occasion, and yes, it is very difficult to win with.


But high I and increased move means that against infantry you can choose your fights.
Problem is, with a lot of armies these days, such as Bretonnians with their cavalry, Empire with the Knight armies, Tomb Kings with chariots, and so on, it can be difficult to choose your fights. And against a HE infantry army, shooting from Dwarfs, Empire, and so on will tear you up. All that artillery is deadly to 5+ and 4+ Armour Saves. Infantry armies require a hell of a lot of magical and shooting support. They need it more than they should.


HOWEVER this set up would proabbly be more effective with a unit of Drangon Princes carrying the banner of sorcery and a load of little silver helm units combined with 4 bolt throwers and 3/4 wizards. But I like High Elf archers think they are the personification of High Elves and have never been a fane of the idea of elven calavry. I also love swordmasters, though miss the -1 to hit for them swatting arrows out of the air from the old rules. Thats a special rule with character!
I would be more effective, but you don't have to go all-cav. You can just get a mixed, balanced force.
Actually, the personification of High Elves comes in the form of the Spearmen and elite infantry units. Highly skilled, weak defence, not that many of them. That's about it in a nutshell.
Swordmasters are the second best unit in the HE list. Although I think that the -1 to hit was slightly overpowered, as they are, they are very good for their cost. 12 of them with a Bladelord, in a 6x2 formation, hitting the flank of an enemy unit, can be quite nasty.

Anthonius
22-05-2005, 22:55
As has been stated before, the shooting in two ranks is gone and should stay gone. The abbility was too powerfull in 5th and doesn't fit in 6th at all. This would be even more powerfull than te 5 man wood elf archer units, which people have been complaining about since they were created, and not without good reason.
I do like giving spearelves heavy armour, it takes spears to the level which they deserve.
Heavy armour for seaguard is not a good option, if only to diversify them from the spearelves (a pricedrop would be in order in this case then).
What would fit with the Phoenix guard the most in my opinion would be to make them unbreakable, it fits the fluff and wouldn't break the system too much, even making them a viable choice.
What also always seemed like a bad idea to me was the restriction on certain units, I'd be more for dropping the restriction and introducing a mainstay rule for them...

Eldacar
23-05-2005, 08:11
Here's an idea that maxwell123 came up with on Asur.org:

PHOENIX GUARDS

Stats: As is.

Equipment: Hand weapon, halberd, dragon armour.

Special Rules:

Immune to psychology

Divine Protection
Upon taking their magical oath of silence and pledging themselves to the service of Asuryan, they are blessed by their god and granted powers far beyond those of ordinary Elves.

Phoenix Guards have the regeneration special ability.

Opinions, anybody?

maxwell123
23-05-2005, 11:06
Thanks Eldacar. ;)

The basic idea behind regeneration is to make the Phoenix Guards a unique and worthwhile Rare unit. They would be the only single wound regenerating unit in the game and be established as the most reliable and resilient infantry unit in the High Elf army (which they always have been in the fluff, just not in the rules unfortunately).

As for any argument that regeneration doesn't suit them, consider it as a blessing from their god.

Phoenix Guards are warrior monks who are totally devoted to Asuryan (greatest of the Elf gods). They reside in Asuryan's shrine within which knowledge of the future is revealed to them. The Phoenix Guards take a magical vow of silence from which they can never be released. They are extremely rare and mysterious warriors.

It would be very easy to rewrite the fluff to have Asuryan bless the PG upon taking their magical vow of silence. Hell, a lot of other warriors have blessings from their gods (all Bret knights, Chaos Warriors, Saurus, etc)

In gaming terms, the rule would make the PG extremely useful and worthwhile, but hardly an automatic choice. They'd become a great tactical option and provide a real solid infantry unit able to withstand a lot of punishment.

Sir_Turalyon
23-05-2005, 12:18
Those units under revision are.
SpearElves.
Archers.
Sea Guard.
Phoenix Guard.


All these units - along with requested upgrades, except the phoenix guard - are covered with ravening hordes list. In fact infrantry in this list looks so good that my regular HE opponent reverted to it, saying that he preferes reliable infrantry over high magic and magic items!

Fluffwise, RH list nicely represents elven colonies outside the Ultharan, as army book list represents army from Ultharan itself. In endangereded colonies citizen levies still practice ancient ways of elven infrantry, like fighting in heavy armour and training to shoot in two ranks, which have been abandoned as unnecessary in Ultharan. The colonial nobility spends time on military exarcises instead of intriguing at the court, and as side effect most powerful of them have even Toughness 4. On the other hand, these backwater nobles have limited access to magic items and cannot learn elite skills taught in Ultharan. Also, sending to separate colonies is close thing to exile for a mage, and no mage worth his salt (knowing the high magic spells) will settle there, regardless of power level. The phoenix guard is not availiable, but personal guards of local nobles, equipped to same level and taking only special slot, fill that niche.

It's not so much development as reverting, but I think two lists complete one another, as one's strengths are other's weakness - one may play decadent and rich continental elves or martial and poor colonial ones, and both lists are official - to some extent.

anarchistica
23-05-2005, 16:02
Opinions, anybody?
Nonsensical. Completely OOT and lacking any basis.

:p

Eldacar
24-05-2005, 03:22
Nonsensical. Completely OOT and lacking any basis.
Reason being? Maxwell posted his reasons for coming up with it and why it is viable.

anarchistica
24-05-2005, 14:16
Reason being? Maxwell posted his reasons for coming up with it and why it is viable.
This: "Divine Protection: Upon taking their magical oath of silence and pledging themselves to the service of Asuryan, they are blessed by their god and granted powers far beyond those of ordinary Elves." is not a "reason", it's an excuse to make up anything they think is good.

Dragon Armour is for characters and Dragon Princes, i see no reason to give it to PG.

Regeneration for PG is OOT because there is no mention at all of this in the fluff and the ability is restricted to very few instances: Trolls, who are 55 point and Ld5 with Stupidity; Fenbeasts, 85 point models and only if they're in swamps; A 50-60 points ability/item for Strigoi, Skaven, Dark Elf and Chaos characters; Trollguts, a spell that requires you to take a 130 point Ogre Butcher; Trollhide Armour, a 20 point magical heavy armour that gives Regeneration but only on a 6+. Aside from these there are some Special Characters that have it. As you can see, it costs you at least 165 points for a Regenerating 9W unit that must be babysitted or 95 for a reliable 2W unit that can always Regenerate. You are giving it without any basis in the background to a unit that is 150 points for 10W and is highly reliable with Ld9 & Immune to Psychology. What's worse is that you break with the 'Elves are frail' thing that GW has chosen to show off in 6th edition, being only broken by 2 (3) DE Magic Items and a Half Elf, Half Daemon figure. No normal elves are tough, and giving PG Regeneration totally breaks with this.

I'd rather see them Unbreakable and halberds improved.

boogle
24-05-2005, 14:21
rename the type of armour Pheonix Armour then, it would fit the background (Pheonix rising out of the ashes = Regenerate)

Eldacar
25-05-2005, 05:55
I'd rather see them Unbreakable and halberds improved.
Are you talking about a specific halberd increase for the PG? Again, how does an improved Halberd fit with the fluff? Nothing in the background of the PG that I know of suggests that they have better halberds than anybody else. Any special abilities they have have to come from them, not the weapons they have or the armour they wear.

And as to breaking the whole "elves are frail" thing, all of those instances (I don't know about the upcoming Wood Elves, however) are centered on the Dark Elves. If the Wood Elves come out with a Regenerating unit (or anything similar, which they might), then there will be another justification to giving the PG Regeneration.

anarchistica
25-05-2005, 21:52
Are you talking about a specific halberd increase for the PG? Again, how does an improved Halberd fit with the fluff? Nothing in the background of the PG that I know of suggests that they have better halberds than anybody else. Any special abilities they have have to come from them, not the weapons they have or the armour they wear.
Nope, i'd just want realistic rules for halberds, not the bs GW degraded them to.


And as to breaking the whole "elves are frail" thing, all of those instances (I don't know about the upcoming Wood Elves, however) are centered on the Dark Elves. If the Wood Elves come out with a Regenerating unit (or anything similar, which they might), then there will be another justification to giving the PG Regeneration.
Another? What was the first?

Eldacar
26-05-2005, 09:26
Aenarion died in the Flame of Asuryan. Asuryan regenerated him and healed his wounds when Aenarion was hurt. There is fluff justification.

Second, should the Wood Elves have a unit that has regeneration when they are released, that would also break the "elves are frail" theory. Not that giving PG regeneration breaks it at all. T3 means elves are frail, and the "all elves are T3" is the source of the "elves are frail" theme.

anarchistica
26-05-2005, 13:35
Aenarion died in the Flame of Asuryan. Asuryan regenerated him and healed his wounds when Aenarion was hurt. There is fluff justification.

Second, should the Wood Elves have a unit that has regeneration when they are released, that would also break the "elves are frail" theory. Not that giving PG regeneration breaks it at all. T3 means elves are frail, and the "all elves are T3" is the source of the "elves are frail" theme.
Your post is devoid of logic.

First, even if Aenarion did die in the flame (i've never read that anywhere), he couldn't have been regenerated because you can't regenerate if you're dead nor can you regenerate when wounded by fire. :p

Secondly, even if it happened like you say, that's no justification. I don't know why you think it is. Next thing you know people are going to want random benefits Archaon has for their Chaos Warriors.

Thirdly, even if Wood Elves have an Elven unit that Regenerates, that isn't justification. Dark Elves don't have armour that makes one immune to fire, nor do High Elves have troops with Poisoned Attacks.

Finally, i just realised that you gave them both immunity to fire and regeneration. That's just too rich, perhaps you should consider "helping" these guys (http://s3.invisionfree.com/Cathay_Project_Main/index.php?) with their Cathay list. :p

redemptionist15
26-05-2005, 13:56
Originally posted by Anarchistica

If they show up for a battle where they know they are going to die, why would they try to run from it? Just a small comment from me here, just because they have seen their deaths doesnt mean that their death will come in that battle, they may run-away because they know they are not meant to die that day.

therisnosaurus
26-05-2005, 13:58
Finally, i just realised that you gave them both immunity to fire and regeneration. That's just too rich, perhaps you should consider "helping" these guys with their Cathay list.

hey, that stings anarchristica, you could at least say it to our face :P

I realise a the phoenix seems powerful but could you at least give us a bloody suggestion on how to FIX it.

No offence intended, we realise the list is crummy enough as it is, but people failing to give us any feedback isn't going to help. We WANT to do a proper list, and without feedback, such as the above, we won't be going anywhere soon. playtesting has proved the phoenix will rarely make its points back (directly at least) so if you think both regeneration and immunity to fire is overpowered, or you think a phoenix's ability to rebirth itself isn't represeted by regeneration well, CAN YOU PLEASE TELL US. *sigh*


back on topic now...
as anarchristica says, the fact another army has something is no justification for another army having it, so that reason for regeneration is a little foolish. dragon armor is also the mark of the princes of caledor, not the phoenix guard. theoreticaly the only characters to have dragon armor should be dragon prince themed characters. so while regeneration is *just* justifiable, dragon armor certainly isn't. for a fix, keep it simple. fear should be dropped, that's a general feeling, but like most HE elites, they should be elite in a minor, very specialised way. immune to psychology and a points drop would be far more in character, as would unbreakable and the same points (maybe +1 or 2, but they're still pretty easy to mow through).

Yasmin
26-05-2005, 16:04
1. Regeneration for PG is a bad idea.
It's not event about fluff - it's like giving them something to make them very good, but not thinking why. It's a 4+ ward save after all. 4+ ward for a rank-and-file. You must be out of your minds to even suggest this people.

I'm one of those few crazy guys who like 'Cause Fear' on them (Bubble Ghost is the second one). I think that the background justification for it is the weakest part. Something about aura of terror that fills the souls of nearby enemy warriors would be more in-place. But as Fear itself is not enough. I would give them a bit more
Cause Fear
and
Enemy units get -1 to all Ld based tests caused by Pheonix Guard (so both Fear and Break Tests)

All this for much lower cost - something along 11-12 points.

2. White Lions
I will repeat it once again. White Lions should be made skirmish. And moved to a special slot (without Lion Guard). Skirmishing Lions would be quite well protected against shooting with both -1 to hit modifier and their 4+ save vs. shooting. They would hit hard and act as a flanking force. Stubborn would be a way to go either.

3. Lothern SeaGuard
I'm all for giving them Raiders rule (without gor-ungor mixed units part). So skirmish, but rank bonus up to +2 in close combat. They would fill much different niche than they do now. Shooting for them would be much more useful, thanks to all models firing and 360 LOS. In combat they would have nice 2 ranks of fighting (almost similar to gors in 1 rank)

I'm aware how much more skirmishing would this add to HE, but it would nicely complement the existing units. Of course a lot of work should be done with other units, and would keep players with using more infantry - maybe not rank-and-file, but less cavalry the better.

4. Others
Other problematic unit in my opinion is Dragon Princes - not enough different from Helms
Others are just simple tweaks, like recosting Command Groups etc.

Something new that could be added to the list would be Battle-mages. They should be more common and standard for this list. Not like it is now.
I mean Commanders and Princes should have the option to upgrade to 1(Commanders)/2(Princes) level mages.

anarchistica
26-05-2005, 22:58
Just a small comment from me here, just because they have seen their deaths doesnt mean that their death will come in that battle, they may run-away because they know they are not meant to die that day.
The problem is that it makes no sense that they would run away if they knew in advance they would be run down. The only other way to prevent this from happening is giving them a rule similar to ATSKNF.

Personally, i like the idea of someone simply carrying on fighting, even if they know they're gonna be killed. It's the easiest and prettiest way to do it.


hey, that stings anarchristica, you could at least say it to our face :P

I realise a the phoenix seems powerful but could you at least give us a bloody suggestion on how to FIX it.

No offence intended, we realise the list is crummy enough as it is, but people failing to give us any feedback isn't going to help. We WANT to do a proper list, and without feedback, such as the above, we won't be going anywhere soon. playtesting has proved the phoenix will rarely make its points back (directly at least) so if you think both regeneration and immunity to fire is overpowered, or you think a phoenix's ability to rebirth itself isn't represeted by regeneration well, CAN YOU PLEASE TELL US. *sigh*
Well i posted on your forum that the magic items made me laugh (possible 1+ Ward Save!). :p

And i've been busy typing out a very critical post, it's pretty big already, brace yourselves. :p

Yes i am very critical, but sometimes stuff i wrote only months ago makes me laugh too...

redemptionist15
27-05-2005, 00:29
The problem is that it makes no sense that they would run away if they knew in advance they would be run down. The only other way to prevent this from happening is giving them a rule similar to ATSKNF.

Yes it would make sense, they would run away because they know this will complete their destiny, which is to die running away. Theres lots of ways and times they could do so it covers a whole host of actions they could take. If they knew that they were gonna die running away then they would act accordingly to make this happen.

anarchistica
27-05-2005, 05:08
No, if you know you would be killed if you ran away you would stop and not run.

And oh dear god i hate you GW with your retarded HE fluff, now we're gonna have a BTTF/Terminator discussion about whether they can interfere with their own death or not, ugh. The retarded White Lions being bodyguard thing is almost as bad.

"omg u savde me!!!!111111 u cna b my bodygard!!!!!111111 don matr dat u ahve 6+ saaaaaaaaveeeeee and striek last!!!!!111111111"

Sorry, i didn't sleep. :p

therisnosaurus
27-05-2005, 11:50
indeed, HE seriously need some work. SERIOUSLY. however, I think we may have to make house rules or simply wait till next edition, as changing core rules is relatively difficult and unless you want to get a petition signed by EVERY member of portent, ulthuan, druichi.net, the temple vaults and so on (which could be an interesting idea) I doubt you'd be able to pull off any change

@anarchristca: I drool in anticipation, as I live for criticsm. however, I'm sure you'll be pleased to know at least a couple of things have changed
1: the steelwind blade is gone, vamoose, never to be seen again. max 1+ wardsave changes to max 3+ wardsave. Even WE could see that was overpowered :P
2: gem of the heavens is changed (since you seemed to have some problem with that, I'd thought you'd want to know). It's now not irresistable and power level 6, about justifiable for 50pts.

redemptionist15
28-05-2005, 17:51
No, if you know you would be killed if you ran away you would stop and not run.

Maybe its just me confusing my meaning of destiny, but if you are destined to die running away then you do just that. Thats what the fluff for the Phoenix Guard is, that they have seen their death and its inevitability so they now fear nothing.

anarchistica
29-05-2005, 01:15
indeed, HE seriously need some work. SERIOUSLY. however,
HE need some minor tweakage. The main problem is the suckage of elite infantry in 6th.


@anarchristca: I drool in anticipation, as I live for criticsm. however, I'm sure you'll be pleased to know at least a couple of things have changed
Muahaha, that's what they all say in advance. I make grown men cry. :evilgrin:


Maybe its just me confusing my meaning of destiny, but if you are destined to die running away then you do just that. Thats what the fluff for the Phoenix Guard is, that they have seen their death and its inevitability so they now fear nothing.
Thing is, say if you knew you would be killed in a car accident tomorrow, would you still leave the house?

Blugh, stupid fluff. Even if they couldn't speak there's tons of people out there who can read thoughs, overcoming that little problem. Ugh. :p

Exavier
06-06-2005, 19:54
all these points are great, but i'd love to see something special. I'd rather have nicer unhelmeted heads right now...

Starvid
07-06-2005, 17:44
My idea for SpearElves, since they seem to be everyones primary hate.

Elven warriors come equipped only with hand weapon and light armor. The "fight in three ranks with spears" rule is removed. New price for elven warrior: 8 points (11 -1 (for shield) -1 (for spear) -1 (for fight in three ranks) =11-3=8.

New options:
Upgrade light armor to heavy: 2 points (or 1?)

Buy spear or halberd: 1 point.

Buy shield: 1 point.


This would make for some nifty basic elven infantry, for example elven warriors with heavy armor, halberd and shields. They are either S4 save 5+ or S3 save 3+, and they only cost 12 points.

Halberds would be really good since they increase the puny elven strength while not loosing them their high initiative. With heavy armor they might even win some combats.

Another alternative would be elven swordsmen, hand weapon, shield and heavy armor. WS 4, S 3, save 3+ for only 11 points.

Tiberius Frost
08-06-2005, 05:45
The biggest problem which causes disagreements here is the poorly written background. Personally, I refuse to belive anything written in the 6th ed HE book. (Well, not quite but is isn't written well.)

Right. The REAL background for the Phoenix Guard is thus:
From the beginning...
The Lord of the Elf gods is Asuryan. His temple is an enormous pyramid located on a island in the sea of dreams (I think, or the sea of dusk) within the borders of Ulthuan.

You may be interested to know that the PG AREN'T the priests of Asuryan. There are other priests who live inside the temple, and who cary out the sacred duties and rituals, and other priestly duties.

The Phoenix Guard are an organisation of warriors who are enlisted to guard the shrine of Asuryan. After the sundering (the civil war against Malekith, remember children?) the Phoenix Guard were required to take a magical oath of silence during their term of service. I belive that this term is not lifelong, although after their term they still don't speak of whatever they have witnessed.

Within the pyramid burns the eternal flame, Asuryan's symbol. We all know this. Also contained within the shrine is the chamber of days. This is described as a room where the histories or Phoenix Kings of the past, present and future are written across the walls in fire.

Now, nowhere does the text say that the history of EVERY INDIVIDUAL ELF is written on the walls. I also get the impression that while the Phoenix Guard are allowed into the room, they don't actually study the writings.
So, imo, the crap in the latest book about "Knowing in advance whether they will fall or be victorious" is nonsense.

Remember that Elves don't write like humans. The sacred texts won't just say, "March 17th: Mike will burn his toast in the morning, and be annoyed when he realizes that he's run out of milk. Steve gets shot in the foot by a crossbow bolt at 4pm. Some goblins hide in the trees on the left there, by the pond, waiting to ambush the spearmen but the mages get them with fireballs. Light showers throughout the day, worsening towards the evening. The winning lottery numbers for today are 7, 14 and 29.

They're going to be written in ancient dialogue, and no doubt the runes will be magically defended against the unworthy. Otherwise, you'll have people like Mike going "oh, must remember to buy some more mil on the way home tonight" and buggering up history for everybody. The whole point of the thing is that the priests of Asuryan will need to read the texts and attempt to interpret them in whatever way they see fit. Similar to the popes of old interpreting the bibles, which were written in Hebrew or whatever and nobody else could understand them.

I also suspect that the get visions and so forth from their patron deity, telling them of things to come. In this way they can determine the important histories of Ulthuan (The coronation and deaths of the Phoenix kings) and probably ignore the minor details of the inscriptions (Hey mike, remember to get some more milk).

The Phoenix guard don't do this job. They accompany the king to his coronation ceremony, occasionally they may act as his bodyguard (in place of the White Lions, yes there are references to this) and show up mysteriously upon his death.

I don't see how they can possibly know whether or not they'll get killed in battle. If it's a major battle then they'll possibly have some idea of the outcome, but I don't really it's a sure-fire thing. Remember, nobody predicted the sundering, possibly the worst catastrophe in High Elf history, and they had been reading the scripts of asuryan for a long time before then, so clearly they don't know the outcome of every single battle, let alone the life of each individual elf. If they did then the High Elves would never lose.

Eldacar
08-06-2005, 07:41
Elven warriors come equipped only with hand weapon and light armor. The "fight in three ranks with spears" rule is removed. New price for elven warrior: 8 points (11 -1 (for shield) -1 (for spear) -1 (for fight in three ranks) =11-3=8.
Thing is, the Asur aren't Druchii. Citizen Levy train with their spears, and that is technically the reason why they have the "fight in 3 ranks" rule. They have it to show that they are better trained than Spearmen for other races. Taking it away just makes them more like your average human, which they aren't. They are elves, and they live longer and can train more with their weapons.
The Asur train themselves better, because there are supposed to be fewer of them.

athamas
08-06-2005, 17:57
one thing that was bought up ages ago, was the idea of allowing the 'one' chosen unit of spearelves [ie the one able to take a banner] to be able to take heavy armour for X points each!


this replaces their option to take a magical banner, only 1 unit can do it, but it gives the core of the army abit more staying power!

anarchistica
08-06-2005, 21:42
Remember that Elves don't write like humans. The sacred texts won't just say, "March 17th: Mike will burn his toast in the morning, and be annoyed when he realizes that he's run out of milk. Steve gets shot in the foot by a crossbow bolt at 4pm. Some goblins hide in the trees on the left there, by the pond, waiting to ambush the spearmen but the mages get them with fireballs. Light showers throughout the day, worsening towards the evening. The winning lottery numbers for today are 7, 14 and 29.

They're going to be written in ancient dialogue, and no doubt the runes will be magically defended against the unworthy. Otherwise, you'll have people like Mike going "oh, must remember to buy some more mil on the way home tonight" and buggering up history for everybody.
LMAO! Love it and it's very true. They should either rewrite that stuff or it should simply be ignored because it's retarded.

Phil the Phoenix Guardian: "Oh no, we know the future but we can't speak and we have seen that tomorrow thousands of Asur will die in a Druchii raid and the Everqueen will be assassinated...and we can do nothing!"

*sees piece of paper and pen lying on the table*

Phil the Phoenix Guardian: "Wait a minute..."


one thing that was bought up ages ago, was the idea of allowing the 'one' chosen unit of spearelves [ie the one able to take a banner] to be able to take heavy armour for X points each!

this replaces their option to take a magical banner, only 1 unit can do it, but it gives the core of the army abit more staying power!
Yeah i saw that idea for First among Equals on Asur and i like it. One of very few actually good ideas they have. :p

Renka
11-06-2005, 23:43
Bah! If I've got it right this is how the elves of Warhammer should work:
Dark Elves - VERY offensive and nasty
Wood Elves - very sneaky-like, using hit-and-run tactics to hit the weak spots of the enemy
High Elves - very defensive
Am I correct?

The thing is, when I first read the Dark Elf army book it instantly occured to me that they should be played offensively. When I first read the Wood Elf chapter approved article it instantly occured to me that they should be played stealthily. When I first read the High Elf army book it instantly occured to me that they should be played offensively and preferably against a Dark Elf army.
Now that ain't right.
If an army SHOULD play defensively, how come the best unit in the book is either a Mage armed with magic missiles or a unit armed with frickin great swords? That's not defensive: that's VERY offensive, just as offensive as Dark Elves in fact, maybe even more so due to the INCREADIBLE Swordsmasters! What I am going to say now is probably going to make a lot of people very angry, but I still feel someone has to say it: off the Swordsmasters. Now, take a deep breath. Clear your head from those angry thoughts. Stop trying to kill me with will power and listen.
If you off the Swordsmasters and make the White Lions Special and change the wording of their Bodyguard ability to allow them mentioned bonuses as long as ANY character has joined them, regardless of if he/she is the general or not you'll probably see more players using White Lions, which is good, right? You could even give them heavy armour to eaven it out, I don't give no never mind.
Next change is the Phoenix Guards. Now, Fear is not a very defensive ability, is it? To me it's anything but offensive. So I say off it. In return the Phoenix Guards are given the Unbreakable rule as well as "Guardians of the Flame", a new rule which allows Phoenix Guards that are killed before they are allowed to attack to get one attack each, which reduces the damage caused to them by chargers.
Even with these changes we still have a problem: all cavalry armies are still too strong. This too can be fixed rather easy, remove the option of heavy armour from the Silver Helms as well as changing their Lances for Spears instead. Now there is a reason to take Dragon Princes (as well as Spear Elves and Archers)! Finally, change the basic points cost of a elf from 10 to 6, like the Dark Elves. This means Archers costs 8 points and Spearelves costs 9 points (without shields). If you think you really need it, give the Archers the ability to fire in two ranks for +1 points/model.
Finally, remove the magic missile from the High Elf magic list and replace it with a defensive spell, something like "Target unit get to re-roll failed armour saves until the High Elf players next magic phase" or "Units firing at the targeted unit suffers a -2 penalty" or something like that.

I give and I take, what say you?

Tiberius Frost
13-06-2005, 02:14
Bah! If I've got it right this is how the elves of Warhammer should work:
Dark Elves - VERY offensive and nasty
Wood Elves - very sneaky-like, using hit-and-run tactics to hit the weak spots of the enemy
High Elves - very defensive
Am I correct?


Wrong. Please stop trying to put blantant labels on everything. That's what Jake Thornton did and that's why this edition's HE army book sux. Because nobody read the background.

[/quote]
If an army SHOULD play defensively, how come the best unit in the book is either a Mage armed with magic missiles or a unit armed with frickin great swords?
[/quote]

True.



off the Swordsmasters.


Okay, No. Swordmasters fit into the background. They're one of the coolest units in the game. If this happened my HE army would lose alot of hittin power, because I'd no longer be able to use my models. I'd be very angry and so would alot of other people who've spent money on swordmaster models. This is a dumb idea from the start.




If you off the Swordsmasters and make the White Lions Special and change the wording of their Bodyguard ability to allow them mentioned bonuses as long as ANY character has joined them, regardless of if he/she is the general or not you'll probably see more players using White Lions, which is good, right?
You could even give them heavy armour to eaven it out, I don't give no never mind.


Why do you want more people to take white lions? Isn't the obvious solution to make the white lions better so that they will be comparable to swordmasters instead of not as good? Why do you need to get rid of swordmasters to make the changes you've suggested? Can't you have both units? Those are good suggestions which I've often considered myself.



Next change is the Phoenix Guards. Now, Fear is not a very defensive ability, is it? To me it's anything but offensive. So I say off it. In return the Phoenix Guards are given the Unbreakable rule as well as "Guardians of the Flame", a new rule which allows Phoenix Guards that are killed before they are allowed to attack to get one attack each, which reduces the damage caused to them by chargers.


Yet another random "fix the phoenix guard" idea, straight out of the hat. See my earlier suggetions on Phoenix guard problems.



Even with these changes we still have a problem: all cavalry armies are still too strong. This too can be fixed rather easy, remove the option of heavy armour from the Silver Helms as well as changing their Lances for Spears instead. Now there is a reason to take Dragon Princes (as well as Spear Elves and Archers)!


So to make the currently unused units better, you suggest making the only units that are any good atm alot crappier??



Finally, change the basic points cost of a elf from 10 to 6, like the Dark Elves. This means Archers costs 8 points and Spearelves costs 9 points (without shields). If you think you really need it, give the Archers the ability to fire in two ranks for +1 points/model.


A fairly arbitrary idea, that would need to be playtested. When Gav wrote the DE revision he mentioned that he felt the DE warriors were too cheap for what they are. We don't want to return to the 5th edition "High Elves of Doom" army.



Finally, remove the magic missile from the High Elf magic list and replace it with a defensive spell, something like "Target unit get to re-roll failed armour saves until the High Elf players next magic phase" or "Units firing at the targeted unit suffers a -2 penalty" or something like that.


Why the heck would you do that? Nearly every magic list currently has a magic missile in it. Why would you get ris of that? You can't make a purely defensive army, what would they do in an ambush scenario? Or a capture? Defend?


I don't really like any of you ideas, because you've playtested none of them and most of them further betray the High Elf background, which you clearly haven't read.

maxwell123
13-06-2005, 12:53
Originally Posted by Renka
Bah! If I've got it right this is how the elves of Warhammer should work:
Dark Elves - VERY offensive and nasty
Wood Elves - very sneaky-like, using hit-and-run tactics to hit the weak spots of the enemy
High Elves - very defensive
Am I correct?

No. I disagree with that. It's a rather simplistic approach.

I hate the simplistic notion some people have that GOOD = defensive and EVIL = offensive. In warfare you need to be strong in both areas. However, to obtain victory over ones enemies, you especially need a strong offence or at least counter-offence.


Personally, I think the very nature of ALL Elves is to be played offensively. They are fast, expensive and vulnerable troops who will not win a war of attrition.
Their major advantage is movement and being able to pick their battles more often than not. These are huge OFFENSIVE advantages.

Dwarves, on the other hand, are a primarily defensive army, as are humans (well, human infantry at least).
Dwarves are mega slow but extremely determined and resilient warriors. They can withstand more punishment than Elves or humans, so are better suited to a war of attrition. They are great at grinding their enemy down in a drawn out battle.

Humans are numerous, but with very ordinary combat ability. They have average speed, so will be able to pick their battles more often than not vs. Dwarves, but will not be able to control the flow of the game as easily against Elves.
The nature of human infantry is to win through weight of numbers. They can be offensive at times, but serve a largely defensive role.


Also, just looking at the history of the High Elves in the fluff, they have been very offensive a lot of the time. Under Aenarion and Tethlis in particular, the High Elves actively sought out their enemies and attacked them with their full strength.

Look at the elite infantry in the High Elf list - Swordmasters, White Lions, Phoenix Guards. These are all designed for offence.

The High Elves are a versatile army, but IMO their offensive assets have always been both more characterful and more crucial to the army than their defensive assets.

Eldanar
13-06-2005, 15:14
After having broken into WAB over the last few months, the single ability/rule in that game versus WHFB, which should be in WHFB as well, is DRILLED.

Just about every elite/high cost army in WHFB should have access to this in some form or another. It allows for triple marches, reforming/charges, etc. And better yet, it has been playtested by Historical Gamers (who make High Elf players look like laid back, easygoing gamers in comparison) for the past 6-7 years.

Best of all, it works; making elite armies elite, and adds an extreme tactical element to the game.

anarchistica
13-06-2005, 15:44
While Drilled technically is a good rule, keep in mind that this is not WAB so you can't say it's been tested for 6-7 years. Also, quick march is ridiculous in it's current form. Moving thrice as fast as normal makes even less sense than marching currently does.

Eldanar
13-06-2005, 19:21
Triple march does have a drawback in that your frontage cannot be more than three wide. Add to this that in WAB very few things move more than 16". In WHFB, flyers can trump that and make it much more difficult to use without getting caught with your pants (er...skirts for the Elves...) down. IIRC, this rule was bandied about for the HE's prior to the release of the current army book, but for whatever reason was not implemented into the final list.

[Of course I have been on a WAB kick for the last couple of months. But after getting into it a little, I can see a lot of very easy and simple fixes for a lot of the problems which afflict WHFB. And the funny thing is that WAB and WHFB were more or less being developed at the same time...I know which one I think is a better game system...]

anarchistica
14-06-2005, 20:35
The 3 model rank thing is true, but still i don't really like it, but that's mostly because i don't like GW's turn-based system (all hail LOTR...sort off).

WAB has some great rules. Drilled, open ranks, chariot transports, back ranks with bows firing, horses fearing camels, (more) weapons that break up striking order, the kontos, etc. I think if one would combine WFB and WAB, and add some "realism" things you'd have a truly amazing system.