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Progena
22-09-2007, 15:00
Roboute Guilliman: Hero of the Imperium or Obnoxious Sycophant?
An Essay on said Primarch and his Ultramarines by Progena.

We all know that Imperial history tells of the heroic actions of the Ultramarines and their Primarch during the time of Great Crusade and the Heresy. But what do we really know about the character of Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the largest Astartes military organization that has ever roamed the Galaxy?

We know that Guilliman pounced on his brother Primarch Lorgar when the Emperor rejected his worship, adding insult to injury by rubbing said rejection in Lorgar's face earning him and his Legion the eternal enmity of the Word Bearers. He completely alienated his youngest brother Alpharius, telling him that he and his Legion would never live up to the glorious reputation of Roboute himself, the other great Primarchs and their Legions. He practically drove Alpharius into the arms of Horus and the Chaos Gods.

When Horus instructed Lorgar to tie up the Ultramarines Legion at their stronghold, the Realm of Ultramar, Lorgar only sent a portion of his forces under Kor Phaeron to challenge the largest Legion in the Imperium, a Legion that may or may not have been larger than all the Traitor Legions put together. With only the element of surprise on their side the Word Bearers drove the Ultramarines before them. Their momentum was finally lost at Calth where Roboute managed to gather his forces for a desperate counter push. Still, with all the resources of his Legion, their Imperial Army allies and the resources of an entire Empire within the Imperium on his side he wasn't able to wipe out the forces of Kor Phaeron, merely chase them into the Maelstrom. The Word Bearers' mission was accomplished; they had kept the Ultramarines from relieving the all-important Siege of Terra.

When Guilliman returned to Terra after the enthronement of the Emperor, he set about establishing himself as the most powerful figure in the Imperium. He compiled the 'Codex Astartes' and forced his reforms and edicts, some of which went against the commandments of the Emperor himself, on the entire military organization of the Imperium. He, as we all know, wanted to separate the Primarchs from their sons by splitting the Legions into Chapters. When his brother Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists, defender of the Emperors Palace, refused to bow down before him he gathered Corax of the Raven Guard and Jaghatai Khan, the Primarch of a shattered Legion and the nomad leader of Astartes inclined to operate independently of their Primarch anyway, to his cause and threatened to sunder the Imperium yet again in another cataclysmic Civil War that would forever have destroyed the Emperors dream of a united humanity. The powerful yet humble Primarch Dorn did not want all they had fought and died for to end that way and submitted to his brother's megalomania. He set out to prepare his Legion for their separation from their beloved Primarch through the fires of battle so that the new Astartes Chapters formed from his Fists, who would forever be marked by his supposed 'near rebellion' against the Imperium, would only consist of truly magnificent and loyal warrior-brethren.

Later, Roboute Guilliman tracked down his lost brother Alpharius who operated on the Eastern Rim Worlds and struck him down, yet Alpharius had prepared his sons for this eventuality and even leaderless the Alpha Legion was able to beat of the Ultramarines. Guilliman had severed the head of the Hydra, but in its place, countless other heads grew and the poison of those heads seep through the worlds of the Ultima Segmentum in trickles of corruption that will one day grow into an unstoppable flood of rebellion.

Guilliman put the responsibility of containing Kor Phaeron's Word Bearers within the Maelstrom, which also lies in Segmentum Ultima, upon the shoulders of the White Scars Chapter, the men of the Khan who had supported his Codex. Their home world lay closer to the Maelstrom than Guillimans Realm of Ultramar, but a mere Space Marine Chapter could not hope to suppress this vast expanse of Real space/Warp space overlay. Thus other newly formed Chapters were stationed there or specifically formed for that purpose, such as the Astral Claws who were corrupted by the influence of the Maelstrom and turned renegade and now gather disillusioned Space Marines from all over the Imperium to the banner of the Red Corsairs.

As for the Ultramarines themselves, they weren't able to save the jewel of their Empire from the vanguard fleet of the Tyranid Hive Mind, simply because their holy Codex Astartes did not describe the proper tactics to employ against the Tyranid Menace. They had lost all abilities of independent and innovative thought due to their dependence on Guillimans Codex.

So when we look at all the threats the Imperium face on the Eastern Front and in the heart of Segmentum Ultima, the Segmentum dominated by the presence of Ultramar, the threats of Traitors of the Word Bearers and Night Lords, Cultists of the Alpha Legion, Renegades of the Red Corsairs, Alien threats from Tyranid Invasion, Tau Expansionism and the Awakening of the Necrontyr, how can the High Lords of Terra turn to the Ultramarines for guidance and protection when many of these threats only exist because of the actions of Guilliman and his protégés?

Obermotz
22-09-2007, 15:54
isnt any inquisitor on watch to solve this arguement;)

jb85
22-09-2007, 16:03
Not much of a balanced essay is it, you have taken all the incidents and put maximum negative spin on it. Even forgetting that your essay is riddled with factual errors.

Lorgar performance had earned a personal reprimand for slow progress; he deserved no sympathy from the Ultramarines. As for Alpharius, he was criticised because he put displays of his and his legions tactical/strategic capacities over actually doing his job. Neither were driven to Horus by Guilliman.

At Calth there was only an expeditionary of UM present initially allowing the Word Bearers to tie them down. Nevertheless the UM performed admirably and the Word Bearers were routed as soon as the main UM fleet arrived. The reason there was no pursuit was that orders to return Terra were received in the immediate aftermath of the engagement. Ultimately it was the immanent return of the UM, DA and SW that caused Horus to lose the Siege of Terra, so the Word Bearers had in actual fact failed in their mission.

The Codex Astartes was a necessary measure for two main reasons. To ensure Heresy of the scale of Horus would never occur again and to allow the shattered Imperial forces to spread themselves across the galaxy to try and bring back some form of stability. It was the pigheadedness of Russ and Dorn that nearly brought about civil war. In addition there has been no stigma ever attached to the Ifs and do not forget it was the UM that saved their hides during the ‘Iron Cage’ incident.

The Alpha legion would have taken up its current position with or without UM intervention. As for an unstoppable flood of rebellion don’t make me laugh, they have had 10,000 years and there still no nearer to that objective.

The Astral Claws were not corrupted by the Maelstrom, it was simply the fact that Huron was a power hungry despot. At any rate Marines are need to guard the Maelstrom because there are many Orks and pirate forces there, so it is not the UM fault the area needs patrolled.

As for the Tyranid section that is utter garbage. To engage the Tyranids at Prandium would have been utter stupidity and doomed the entire system. There were no were near enough orbital or ground defences at Prandium to defeat Behemoth. It was a necessary loss. Need I also remind you that the Ultramarines destroyed the Hivefleet and were key to breaking Kraken in the Ichar system.

The Ultramar system does not dominate the segmentum. It is but ONE system in the largest segmentum in the Imperium. The Nightlords and Word Bearers are as much threats of the Eye of Terror, the Alpha legion are no more than a nuisance, the Necrons have been awaking long before the incident with the Nightbringer. At any rate the UM were not the reason or at fault for any of them. The reason the Tau still exist is because of Imperial redeployment during Hivefleet Behemoth.

In conclusion your arguments are utter, utter garbage, twisting sensible interpretation of events, misrepresenting many facts and even where this is not the case most of your points are extremely tenuous at best.

Guilliman - Hero of the Imperium

Progena
22-09-2007, 16:32
Not much of a balanced essay is it, you have taken all the incidents and put maximum negative spin on it. Even forgetting that your essay is riddled with factual errors.

Ah yes, but then my essay was never ment to be 'balanced'. It's an informal essay, a 'causerie', calling it simply an 'essay' was deliberate misrepresentation. Would I have gotten you so fired up if I'd written a 'balanced' essay where I weighted all the many different sides of the stories? It's propaganda my friend, it might be rubbish, but it would be the good kind of rubbish. ;)

(And the Ultramarines were in fact not able to halt the advance Hive Fleet Behemoth in a space because the Codex Astartes stated that 'hit-and-run' tactics were to be employed, which proved to be totally ineffective against living Tyranid ship-biomorphs with the ability to regenerate wounds. The Ultramarines had to break with the Codex to defeat them.)

Progena

jb85
22-09-2007, 16:45
(And the Ultramarines were in fact not able to halt the advance Hive Fleet Behemoth in a space because the Codex Astartes stated that 'hit-and-run' tactics were to be employed, which proved to be totally ineffective against living Tyranid ship-biomorphs with the ability to regenerate wounds. The Ultramarines had to break with the Codex to defeat them.)

The tactics were irrelevant in that engagement. Best case scenario the UM had 30 capital ships, Behemoth was hitting a 1000 ships. As another aside it was hit and run tactics by fighters that took out the largest ship in the fleet during the battle. The Codex Astartes in often misinterpreted IMO. It was a comprehensive set of guidelines and advice, but it shouldn’t be prescriptive. There is no way the book could cover every eventuality that would arise in 10,000 years of war and I can’t believe Guilliman wrote it as such.

Arkley
22-09-2007, 17:05
Can I ask a question Progena?

I take it you don't like Ultramarines?

Progena
22-09-2007, 17:07
There is no way the book could cover every eventuality that would arise in 10,000 years of war and I can’t believe Guilliman wrote it as such.

But he should've told his marines that, before he got mortally wounded by the Daemon Prince formerly known as Fulgrim, because that's how they see it. Had they had a bit more relaxed relationship to the Codex then they would've allowed themselves to arm their Cruisers and Battlebarges with ship-to-ship armaments and not only orbit-to-ground artillery. At the time of the Tyranid invasion the Ultramarines frowned on even using Escorts with ship-to-ship torpedos or lances. Guilliman supposedly decreed in the Codex that such weaponry should not be installed on Astartes ships thus limiting them to orbital drops to appeace the Navy who felt fleet combat should be reserved them. For all I know, perhaps Guilliman even deliberatly left out the instructions on how to use such weapons in the Codex for just that reason? Now, the Black Templars who have a very relaxed relationship with the Codex are also experts in fleet organisation and ship-to-ship combat and could've tought the Ultramarines much if they'd be willing to listen.

Ultramarines aren't so bad, a bit uptight perhaps... It's Guilliman I don't like, he strikes me as arrogant.

Arkley
22-09-2007, 17:11
And the other Primarchs arent?

Eetion
22-09-2007, 17:39
Firstly, the UM didnt defeat Behemouth fleet. i believe it was the Segmentum Battlefleets timely arrival that carried the day allowing the UM to disengage and return to beset Ultramar, with the sacrifice of the Emperor Class Vessel Dominus Astra trigering its warp drives in the middle of the Hive feet. Altough I will concede the UM had done an admirable job of fleet war up until that point.- Reference Codex Tyranids

Alpharius wasnt out to prove himself, until after Roboutes outburst of idiocy and self rightousness. And agents of Alpharius have had a profound effect on the Imperium, right down to destroying battle fleets, and using methods to destroy worlds such as the Crixian Locusts and the subsequent supply problems of food hindered supply and caused unrest on worlds across the sub sector and in turn indered Imperial response to further Chaos incursions into the segmentum. This all caused by using but small fractions of their whole. They have survived operating within the Imperium for 10'000 years.- reference Alpha Legion IA

I have absolutely no recollection of the UM returning to Terra, breaking the heresy DA and SW yes, but the UM were still a long way off.- This one is hard to reference as most new sources mention that as to horus' reasons for lowering his shield are unknown

Also the codex was implemented and discussed while the IFs were out hunting down the rest of the traitors... Its only when Dorn returned and found out from Gullieman "oh by the way im the boss, and im breaking your legion up" wouldnt you be peeved. Its to Dorns credit he relented, cos you can bet you life Roboute wouldnt have. And lets not forget that its not just Dorn who resisted the codex, at least 2 other Legions thought likewise (Russ and Vukan)- IA IF and Black Templar

I also suspect that large portions of the codex are tacticly flawed given the Ultramarines mauling on Eskrador (assuming the battle happened but thats another topic) and if the Codex was intended as guidelines than why the resistance to the Tyrannic War Veterans by some within the Chapter? IA AL and Codex Space Marines.

Since the codexs inception we now have a multitiude of chapters with little/no co-operation, with some having deviant recruitment practises on their homeworld, rather than tried and tested methods on the homeworlds of the original legions. How many have been subverted by deviant practises. Reference IA Renegades

Since now when help is needed a request has to go x ammount of chapter masters rather than 1 or 2 to obtain the same number of SM and your claim that the need for chapters to spread out is flawed, the Legions had each divided into smaller crusade fleets and conquered the galaxy not gone round as one big mob. Chapters are at best an additional beuracratic process.- No solid reference, info from HH series BL, and assumption.

Conclusion- Guilemans a Beauracrat first...Warrior Second.
Pesonally I think He saw an opportunity to make a legacy on the galaxy given his legion did nothing to defend terra and sought to get his Legion within the history books.

Splagbot
22-09-2007, 17:49
I'm no fan of the Ultramarines but have to agree that there where huge errors in your assessment of Guilliman, however as a fan of the Imperial Fists I have to agree with you and dissagree with the second poster on one point.

Rogal Dorn may have at times been overzealous and headstrong, however to call him pigheaded because he did not want his legion split down is just plain wrong, the end result of the whole Codex Astartes incident showed that it was Guilliman and not Dorn that was willing to take the Imperium into a civil war, when an Imperial Navy ship fired on an Imperial Fists strike cruiser Dorn backed down and accepted the Codex Astartes, Dorn was bluffing and Guilliman called his bluff.

Kandarin
22-09-2007, 18:01
I see Guilliman as the ultimate academic. He loved to take problems, study them heavily, and find what he saw as ideal solutions. Some people love to hear themselves talk (we all know some). Guilliman loved to hear himself think. And like many real academics, this led him to distrust others in his field who devoted more emotion and less thought to their work. He saw them as slightly careless at best and dangerous at worst for refusing to accept his 'answers' to all their problems.

Erebus26
22-09-2007, 18:04
Lorgar performance had earned a personal reprimand for slow progress; he deserved no sympathy from the Ultramarines. As for Alpharius, he was criticised because he put displays of his and his legions tactical/strategic capacities over actually doing his job. Neither were driven to Horus by Guilliman.

At Calth there was only an expeditionary of UM present initially allowing the Word Bearers to tie them down. Nevertheless the UM performed admirably and the Word Bearers were routed as soon as the main UM fleet arrived. The reason there was no pursuit was that orders to return Terra were received in the immediate aftermath of the engagement. Ultimately it was the immanent return of the UM, DA and SW that caused Horus to lose the Siege of Terra, so the Word Bearers had in actual fact failed in their mission.


But after Lorgar had been given the hairdryer treatment by the Emperor (and after he turned to Chaos), he actually conquered planets like nobody's business. He was only doing it to keep his defection under wraps but he wasn't doing nothing.

As for Calth there was only part of the Word Bearers there, and yes they were routed once the Ultramarines brought their full forces to bear but the WB had done their job - they had stopped the Ultramarines reaching terra. As for the DA and SW - they didn't return in time. The theory is that Horus knew they were on the way, but the real reason he lowered his shields has never been explained.

Progena
22-09-2007, 18:20
And the other Primarchs arent [arrogant]?

Rogal Dorn was described by his contemporaries as exemplar of the qualities of truth, honour, courage and humility and so was (and is) his sons.

Fulgrim was arrogant, sure, perhaps most Primarchs were, but they all had qualities that easily overshadowed that trait (I'll go into detail if you want me to). Guilliman was described as a tactical genious, but you don't hear as much about that as his run-ins with his brothers.

I think it's lame that almoast every single Space Marine Chapter in the Imperium are based on the Ultramarines geneseed. Also, wouldn't that meen that most Space Marines who turn renegad carry the seeds of Guilliman? So much for "purity".

Londinium
22-09-2007, 18:45
Alpharius wasnt out to prove himself, until after Roboutes outburst of idiocy and self rightousness. And agents of Alpharius have had a profound effect on the Imperium, right down to destroying battle fleets, and using methods to destroy worlds such as the Crixian Locusts and the subsequent supply problems of food hindered supply and caused unrest on worlds across the sub sector and in turn indered Imperial response to further Chaos incursions into the segmentum. This all caused by using but small fractions of their whole. They have survived operating within the Imperium for 10'000 years.- reference Alpha Legion IA

Nah little Alphy spent about two weeks battering the **** out of a city on a planet of whos name I forgot, trying to produce the absolute perfect victory in every way, with which to impress his brothers. Guilliman came across the aftermath and repremanded him for fart arsing around, when he could have taken the planet in half the time and moved on to the next planet to be claimed in the name of the Imperium.

Of course considering the time and effort Alpharius had put into this and the reasoning behind it, he was mighty miffed at being censored so openly and humiliatingly by Guilliman. Alpharius was very much out to prove himself and was annoyed that he wasn't being praised to the heavens unlike other Primarchs, it wasn't Guilliman being arrogant or setting out to get Alpharius, it was him merely stating the cold hard facts of the mission of the Great Crusade.


I have absolutely no recollection of the UM returning to Terra, breaking the heresy DA and SW yes, but the UM were still a long way off.- This one is hard to reference as most new sources mention that as to horus' reasons for lowering his shield are unknown

UM's being on the way to terra was wrote into the Heresy story with the Visions series, to clear up the vagueness of them just hanging around in the Galatic South and doing a whole lot of nothing, along with the battle at Calth, as soon as they dispatch the Word Bearers they recieve news of the battle at Terra and depart, they are behind the DA and SW but not months, more like days or weeks.


Also the codex was implemented and discussed while the IFs were out hunting down the rest of the traitors... Its only when Dorn returned and found out from Gullieman "oh by the way im the boss, and im breaking your legion up" wouldnt you be peeved. Its to Dorns credit he relented, cos you can bet you life Roboute wouldnt have. And lets not forget that its not just Dorn who resisted the codex, at least 2 other Legions thought likewise (Russ and Vukan)- IA IF and Black Templar

The IF's weren't out hunting down the rest of the traitors, the Ultramarines being largely unscathed by the Heresy were doing the lions share of that and dispatching troops all over the Imperium trying to pull it back together, all the other legions were shattered by the war and considering the Fists had just been through the Battle of Terra, I assume they were too.

What the Fists did do was have a mental breakdown, if you've watched the HBO series Rome, imagine Dorn as Vorenus after his wife commits suicide and his children are sold into slavery. Dorn has failed the Emperor in his eyes, it was him that found the dead bodies of two of his brothers, the only just alive body of his father, everything he ever stood for and the world he fought for has just imploded in on him, he went nuts.

He painted his armour black, started self harming himself and went on a rampage around the galaxy, attacking with no strategic forethought nor lending the strength of his legion were it was really needed in those desperate times, he just rampaged around the galaxy killing and maiming anything, I wouldn't be suprised if he even mistakenly attacked loyalists due to crossed wires on occasions during this time, he had to be brought to heel eventually.

It wasn't until the Iron Cage, when Dorn went steaming in, intent on killing anything in sight and was thoroughly humiliated and chastised by Perturabo, and had to rely on being saved by Guilliman that he finally snapped out of his rage induced grief, and went into a prolonged state of reflection, allowing his legion to be best deployed where they were needed as the Imperium fell apart, rather than rampaging all over the place with no real aim.

When he returned 20 years later, he submitted to the Codex as he had gained control over his grief and was no longer the Beserker that was seen after the Heresy, during the period after the Heresy he was no better than a loyalist Angron.


Conclusion- Guilemans a Beauracrat first...Warrior Second.
Pesonally I think He saw an opportunity to make a legacy on the galaxy given his legion did nothing to defend terra and sought to get his Legion within the history books.

It wasn't his fault that his legion couldn't participate in the defence of Terra, and his legion is in the history books regardless of the Codex Astartes and reformation of the Imperium, it was his legion that held the Imperium together while the rest of the legions recovered and the Imperial Fists rampaged across the galaxy, likewise during the Great Crusade his legion had the third highest total of victories.

Arkley
22-09-2007, 18:45
Rogal Dorn was described by his contemporaries as exemplar of the qualities of truth, honour, courage and humility and so was (and is) his sons.

Oh yeah them quailies shined thru in the Iron Cage incident... I have nothing against the IF but you really need to include all the information.



Fulgrim was arrogant, sure, perhaps most Primarchs were, but they all had
qualities that easily overshadowed that trait (I'll go into detail if you want me to). Guilliman was described as a tactical genious, but you don't hear as much about that as his run-ins with his brothers.

And there lays the problem we have not heard anything :(, I hope the HH books cover the Ultramarines at some point and shed light on Guilliman.



I think it's lame that almoast every single Space Marine Chapter in the Imperium are based on the Ultramarines geneseed. Also, wouldn't that meen that most Space Marines who turn renegad carry the seeds of Guilliman? So much for "purity".

Personally I think you have an axe to grind against the Ultramarines...

Be it for their geneseed accounting for 60% of the current chapters?
Or wether he forced the codex down other Primarchs throats?
They did not do anything in the Heresy?

There has been what 50 to 100 Chapters turned... ok say 60% of them are Ultramarine Genestock what is your point? Really? If you have read the Ultramarine books you will see how different the Mortifactors (2nd Founding) are compared to their Ultramarine brothers?

If thats the case why not use the geneseed Thousand Sons, World Eater etc... It was not the geneseed that was unstable it was the marines faith in their Primarch with the exception of a few who refused their Primarch.

I don't think the Ultramarines are perfect not by a long shot, I do feel alot of the CO's are following the codex to the letter, hence the punishment of Uriel, IMO I would have punished Uriel for deserting his men not for breaking the codex..

Hell they tolerated Idaeus because he got results...

What I can't stand is I think you have tried your best to provoke a reaction and a negative one at that.



It wasn't his fault that his legion couldn't participate in the defence of Terra, and his legion is in the history books regardless of the Codex Astartes and reformation of the Imperium, it was his legion that held the Imperium together while the rest of the legions recovered and the Imperial Fists rampaged across the galaxy, likewise during the Great Crusade his legion had the third highest total of victories.


I kinda hope that is was part Horus's plan to keep the Ultras out of the main fight.

Londinium
22-09-2007, 18:54
I kinda hope that is was part Horus's plan to keep the Ultras out of the main fight.

Indeed, of course it was, I was merely retaliating to the poster that claimed that Guilliman did absolutely nothing to defend Terra, it wasn't his fault that he was ambushed by someone who considered his ally thousands of light years away from Terra, which delayed him substanially.

Progena
22-09-2007, 19:03
What I can't stand is I think you have tried your best to provoke a reaction and a negative one at that.

Hmm, I was certainly hoping for reactions, I didn't write this only to amuse myself, but I wasn't neccesarily expecting only negative reactions. I was hoping to make the point that you really can twist history to suit your view of it. Look at the Description of the War of the Beard/Vengeance from the (now) old Elf and Dwarf Army Books. There you have exactly the same story told from two separate points of view and they're totally different.

Wasn't trying to antagonise Ultramaries fans. If someone had handed me the Space Marine Company Set tomorrow I'd probably sit down and paint them Ultramarines, because whenever I think of Codex Marines I think Ultramarines Second Company and Captain Sicarius.

Splagbot
22-09-2007, 19:13
It wasn't until the Iron Cage, when Dorn went steaming in, intent on killing anything in sight and was thoroughly humiliated and chastised by Perturabo

Hardly, if you read the official fluff it states that the Iron Warriors where just as unable to wipe out the Fists as the Fists where them, being unable to win isn't a humiliation as many people would believe.


When he returned 20 years later, he submitted to the Codex as he had gained control over his grief and was no longer the Beserker that was seen after the Heresy, during the period after the Heresy he was no better than a loyalist Angron.

I actually believe it was the persecution that his Legion endured and his unwillingness to plunge the Imperium into a civil war that it could not survive that made him agree to the Codex Asartes.

jb85
22-09-2007, 19:14
Hivefleet Behemoth – that’s fine, I went into a detailed description of the battle on another thread and I didn’t feel like regurgitating it. I don’t think you can give either the UM or Navy sole credit as it was very much a joint op.

Alpha Legion – I’m not attempting to belittle their efforts, I was simply countering the ludicrous claim of an ‘unstoppable flood of rebellion’ across the Segmentum

Siege of Terra – older fluff has demons arriving to tell Horus reinforcements were on the way. None of the later fluff overrides this therefore I would say it still stands as the most viable reason. I have also read from a source (can’t recall where) that the UM were returning to Earth on a similar timescale to the SW and DA.



Since the codexs inception we now have a multitiude of chapters with little/no co-operation, with some having deviant recruitment practises on their homeworld, rather than tried and tested methods on the homeworlds of the original legions. How many have been subverted by deviant practises. Reference IA Renegades

Since now when help is needed a request has to go x ammount of chapter masters rather than 1 or 2 to obtain the same number of SM and your claim that the need for chapters to spread out is flawed, the Legions had each divided into smaller crusade fleets and conquered the galaxy not gone round as one big mob. Chapters are at best an additional beuracratic process.- No solid reference, info from HH series BL, and assumption.

On the codex it is probably flawed in so much as if it is followed absolutely to the letter then an opponent like Alpharius can plan his own countermeasures in minute detail as he knows exactly what is coming. I would imagine that the reason why lances and torpedoes where absent on escorts was for the same reason as the IG not having air support under its jurisdiction. Splitting jurisdiction of forces/equipment like this is done to reduce the impact of Heresy. Marine ships are designed to deliver troops primarily, for pitched fleet actions the Imperial Navy should be responsible normally.

Splitting the legions was vital in the aftermath of the Heresy. While the existing legions could be split, from a pure logistical point of view having them as standalone formations makes more sense. Once again the split also reduced the amount of power that one man could wield and in the case of a Chapter going renegade they are much easier to slap down. The lack of cooperation is overstated, when there is a large enough threat Marine Chapters by and large fight in a coordinated fashion. In terms of deviant processes, how many Chapter have went renegade, 20 or 30? Compared to 9 out of 18 legions, yeah the new process is a lot worse.

It is important to stress that many of the changes post Heresy where NOT to improve Imperium military effectivness. The Imperial Guard would no doubt be more effective if it had direct command of its air resources for example. The reason for many of the changes was to reduce the risk and impact of rebellion and ensure that another Horus would not arise.

Londinium
22-09-2007, 19:20
Hardly, if you read the official fluff it states that the Iron Warriors where just as unable to wipe out the Fists as the Fists where them, being unable to win isn't a humiliation as many people would believe.

It was a total and utter strategic defeat for the Imperial Fists, it's strongly indicated in the IA's that if Guilliman didn't swallow his pride and bring his legion to the IF's aid, then the whole legion would have died in that god forsaken trap, as it was hundreds of the Fists died there, the legion didn't re-emerge for two decades and Perturabo ascended to daemonhood off the back of the gene seed left behind and sacrificed, thats a defeat whichever way you portray it.

Thermopylae was a defeat was it not ?


I actually believe it was the persecution that his Legion endured and his unwillingness to plunge the Imperium into a civil war that it could not survive that made him agree to the Codex Asartes.

He agreed to it then, he didn't expressly follow it or approve of it, it's completely different, when he returned from his seclusion the IF's were a totally orthodox codex fighting force, with all the radicals removed and placed into the Templars.

Splagbot
22-09-2007, 19:30
Yes Thermopylae was a defeat, it wasn't however a humiliation, if anyone was humiliated it was Purterabo (not at Thermopylae) due to his inablilty to finish off an attacking force that he outnumbered and was attacking deeply entrenched troops, it's also worth noting that by the end of the whole Iron Cage incident the Imperial Fists where out of ammunition and the Iron Warriors where still unable to finish them, I personally think Dorn came out of it looking pretty good.

I certainly don't think that Dorn was convinced that the Codex Astartes was a good idea and I don't think his following it was to do with anything but him putting the interests of the Imperium first.

ryng_sting
22-09-2007, 19:33
Hero - no credible alternative, least of all in the 'essay' opening this thread.

Londinium
22-09-2007, 19:36
Yes Thermopylae was a defeat, it wasn't however a humiliation, if anyone was humiliated it was Purterabo (not at Thermopylae) due to his inablilty to finish off an attacking force that he outnumbered and was attacking deeply entrenched troops, it's also worth noting that by the end of the whole Iron Cage incident the Imperial Fists where out of ammunition and the Iron Warriors where still unable to finish them, I personally think Dorn came out of it looking pretty good.



I don't see anywhere where it states the IW were unable to finish them off, yes the remaining IF's were fighting like daemons and surviving much longer than they should have and were inflicting crazy losses on the IW for each marine, but the article reads like their numbers were dwindling all the time and it was unsustainable, and only the arrival of the Smurfs stopped what was inevitable in the end, the destruction of the legion.

The fact that Perturabo was ascended to daemonhood shows it was far from a failure, it was only Guilliman that stopped his objective being completed in the end.

Splagbot
22-09-2007, 19:54
Of course it was unsustainable, but how long could the Iron Warriors last before the crazy losses took their toll on them, it stands to reason their numbers would dwindle, but the fact they where dwindling and not plummeting and that the incident dragged on for so long is an indication that the Iron Warriors could not decisively finish the Fists off.

jb85
22-09-2007, 20:16
Yes Thermopylae was a defeat, it wasn't however a humiliation, if anyone was humiliated it was Purterabo (not at Thermopylae) due to his inablilty to finish off an attacking force that he outnumbered and was attacking deeply entrenched troops, it's also worth noting that by the end of the whole Iron Cage incident the Imperial Fists where out of ammunition and the Iron Warriors where still unable to finish them, I personally think Dorn came out of it looking pretty good.


So let me get this straight, his mission objective was to and I'll quote "dig Perturabo out of his hole and bring him back to Terra in an iron cage". He walked straight into a trap after an almost contemptuously easy bit of manipulation from Perturabo and when he finally reached the fortress found it was a decoy. During the course of the fighting the IF’s were unable to break out and suffered heavy losses until they were eventually relieved by Guilliman. The campaign failed to capture Perturabo, provided him with the opportunity to ascend to Daemonhood, failed to land a significant blow on the Iron Warriors, left Dorn a broken man and put the Fists out of action for 19 years, costing the lives of hundreds of Marines.

The performance of the Marines individually should be lauded however Dorn walked straight into a giant trap and denied the Imperium, whose forces were spread perilously thin, the service of one of its few remaining combat effective Marine legions for 2 decades. The incident was an utter disaster and certainly does nothing to enhance Dorn’s reputation.

thelightbringer
22-09-2007, 20:36
Having read Fulgrim, the parallels between the two Primarchs are obvious!! If Gulliman had met the Laer, I am in no doubt that the Ultramarines would be Slaneeshi and the Emporers chidren THE codex chapter/legion!discuss!

Arkley
22-09-2007, 20:43
Having read Fulgrim, the parallels between the two Primarchs are obvious!! If Gulliman had met the Laer, I am in no doubt that the Ultramarines would be Slaneeshi and the Emporers chidren THE codex chapter/legion!discuss!

I have not read Fulgrim yet but you know I am not really surprised by that...

Progena
22-09-2007, 21:04
Dorn walked straight into a giant trap

Well he could pull the 'insanity plea'. Perhaps he went temporarily mad with grief at the loss of his father and the prospect of facing even more of his brothers in battle, and put his entire Legion through the greatest meatgrinder of a trap ever concieved in order to decimate his forces so they could fit into one Chapter? That whole battle was a giant catastrophy for both the IF and the IW, but both Legions would've fought to the bitter end to see their most hated foes perish. In the end it was perhaps not the arrival of the military force of the Ultramarines that saved Dorn, but the hand of friendship offered by his brother Roboute that brought him back from the edge?

Also there's a symbolic meaning behind the battle between the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists. The Siege Legion of Perturabo as the defenders and the Castellan Legion of Dorn as the attackers. Everything has been put upside-down.

The Iron Warriors seem to have lost less than the Fists though. As you said, Perturabo gained Daemonhood, but then again most Traitor Primarchs who survived the Heresy did too. More importantly perhaps is that the Iron Warriors were tempered like steel. As far as I've been able to determine they still stick together under the leadership of their Daemon-Primarch unlike many other Legions.

Splagbot
22-09-2007, 21:07
"dig Perturabo out of his hole and bring him back to Terra in an iron cage...

Where did you quote this from, as I have the Imperial Fists Index Astartes sat right in front of me and say that nowhere, it does say and I'll quote "Eventually it became apparent the Iron Warriors could not finish them. For all their skill and ferocity the Iron Warriors lacked the the faith to make the ultimate sacrifice that victory demanded."

It then goes on "While they paused, the Ultramarines intervened; Guilliman had decided that Perturabo's destruction was not worth the loss of Rogal Dorn and had brought his chapter to drive off the Iron Warriors."

So yes, the Imperial Fists may have all been killed along with Rogal Dorn, however the Iron Warriors would have lost and Perurabo would have been killed, despite all their protestations pre heresy the Iron Warriors where second to the Imperial Fists, this is shown by the fact that entrenched in a very good fortified position they could not beat the Fists, Dorn was in no way humiliated and as to why Perturabo was made a Daemon Prince is anyones guess.

Erebus26
22-09-2007, 21:15
Where did you quote this from, as I have the Imperial Fists Index Astartes sat right in front of me and say that nowhere, it does say and I'll quote "Eventually it became apparent the Iron Warriors could not finish them. For all their skill and ferocity the Iron Warriors lacked the the faith to make the ultimate sacrifice that victory demanded."

It then goes on "While they paused, the Ultramarines intervened; Guilliman had decided that Perturabo's destruction was not worth the loss of Rogal Dorn and had brought his chapter to drive off the Iron Warriors."

So yes, the Imperial Fists may have all been killed along with Rogal Dorn, however the Iron Warriors would have lost and Perurabo would have been killed, despite all their protestations pre heresy the Iron Warriors where second to the Imperial Fists, this is shown by the fact that entrenched in a very good fortified position they could not beat the Fists, Dorn was in no way humiliated and as to why Perturabo was made a Daemon Prince is anyones guess.

Well read the Iron Warriors IA article then! ;)

Splagbot
22-09-2007, 21:16
Heh, I'm sure it'll read very differently.:rolleyes:

Arkley
22-09-2007, 21:17
Well he could pull the 'insanity plea'. Perhaps he went temporarily mad with grief at the loss of his father and the prospect of facing even more of his brothers in battle, and put his entire Legion through the greatest meatgrinder of a trap ever concieved in order to decimate his forces so they could fit into one Chapter? That whole battle was a giant catastrophy for both the IF and the IW, but both Legions would've fought to the bitter end to see their most hated foes perish. In the end it was perhaps not the arrival of the military force of the Ultramarines that saved Dorn, but the hand of friendship offered by his brother Roboute that brought him back from the edge?

No Perturabo did not want to fight 2 Legions cant say I blame him.


Where did you quote this from, as I have the Imperial Fists Index Astartes sat right in front of me and say that nowhere, it does say and I'll quote "Eventually it became apparent the Iron Warriors could not finish them. For all their skill and ferocity the Iron Warriors lacked the the faith to make the ultimate sacrifice that victory demanded."[/I

It then goes on [I]"While they paused, the Ultramarines intervened; Guilliman had decided that Perturabo's destruction was not worth the loss of Rogal Dorn and had brought his chapter to drive off the Iron Warriors."

Iron Warriors IA Book I. its a direct quote. Read the story about it... Perturabo was enjoying the siege.... He was enjoying putting the IF thro the hell. I have to say its amazing that people come on this without checking both sides...



So yes, the Imperial Fists may have all been killed along with Rogal Dorn, however the Iron Warriors would have lost and Perurabo would have been killed, despite all their protestations pre heresy the Iron Warriors where second to the Imperial Fists, this is shown by the fact that entrenched in a very good fortified position they could not beat the Fists, Dorn was in no way humiliated and as to why Perturabo was made a Daemon Prince is anyones guess.


Dorn let his own pride be his downfall... Dorn lost that siege no if or buts he lost... The siege broke Dorn nothing else..

jb85
22-09-2007, 21:32
Thanks Erebus26.

Splagbot - the stories are different in places but not incompatible. The Imperial Fists could have been wiped out by Perturabo but for whatever reason (lack of stomach for the sacrifice needed to finish the job or he was toying with Dorn) he didn’t push the attack. At any rate Dorn took his forces off to settle a score, turned down assistance from Guilliman and as a result nearly paid the ultimate price for his pride.


why Perturabo was made a Daemon Prince is anyones guess.

The sacrifice of 400 Imperial Fists accounted for that.

Splagbot
22-09-2007, 21:36
Iron Warriors IA Book I. its a direct quote. Read the story about it... Perturabo was enjoying the siege.... He was enjoying putting the IF thro the hell. I have to say its amazing that people come on this without checking both sides...

What can I say, I haven't got each Index Astartes article catalogued for easy access, my bad.


Dorn let his own pride be his downfall... Dorn lost that siege no if or buts he lost... The siege broke Dorn nothing else..

Downfall?

Dorn was alive at the end the whole incident and Perturabo was running as fast as he could for the Eye of Terror, Dorn did not lose the siege and he was in a better position after that siege than he was before, yes the losses he took where immense and it meant that he couldn't make as many chapters as others, this was however what he and the Imperial Fists wanted, did you even read the Fists Index Astartes?

Progena
22-09-2007, 21:43
The sacrifice of 400 Imperial Fists accounted for that [Ascension to Daemonhood].

Was that all? The Chaos Gods must've gotten more picky as of late... Ygethmor was told he had to sacrifice an entire planet to ascend, and that was after several lifetimes of service.

Arkley
22-09-2007, 21:47
He nearly destroyed his Legion? Thats what he wanted? I am sorry but that is crap he threw away his caution and planning... All for pride... With is a common thing when we talk about Primarchs.

Really how was he in better position this I am eager to hear.

And yes I have.... :)


Was that all? The Chaos Gods must've gotten more picky as of late... Ygethmor was told he had to sacrifice an entire planet to ascend, and that was after several lifetimes of service.

According to the IW IA there was just over 400 IF Left...

Splagbot
22-09-2007, 21:56
Crap, really, well I quoted this from the article also "Dorn knew that many of his Battle Brothers did not wish to found new chapters as the Ultramarines where eager to do. There would be far too many left for oneof the new thousand strong chapters. Leaving Phalanx, he led these die hard warriors against the Iron Warriors in their lair."

In short he didn't take his whole legion to the Iron Cage and I never stated he did, he only took those that knew would not be willing to leave the Fists knowing they prefered death, hence he was free to adhere to the Codex Astartes without issue, as I said he was in a better position, are you sure you read the article?

BDJV
22-09-2007, 21:56
Warning unconventional thinking below. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/EasyEight/intheshade.gif

I am not a believer in the retcon theory of old fluff is changed or invalidated. I prefer the background of 40K to have great depth and feel that none of the old fluff is totally invalidated. It's all about perception and whose viewpoint is telling the story.

I firmly believe that Guilliman was as written in the early fluff an excellent guard commander.

He was an instrument of the High Lords of Terra and in the wake of the Horus Heresy he was the perfect candidate to push forward their goals. So while the actual 1st founding chapters are cleaning chasing the traitors all over the galaxy, the High Lords pump out the Ultra Marines and Pimp Guilliman as a great hero of the Imperium.

So a revision of Imperial history begins to lend credence to Guilliman being one of the great sons of the Emperor thusly making the Ultra Marines valid Legion. Maybe the original core of the Ultra Marines comes from one or both of the expunged Legions. (Why couldn’t this be possible, in fact it makes some sense assuming Guilliman is the pawn of the High Lords)

Then a second change happens the Crimson Fists (an original fluff 1st founding) are merged with the Imperial Fists. Some may ask what happened to their Primarch? Isn’t it entirely possible that the High Lord had him assassinated?

So now the Ultra Marines and Guilliman have a solid historical background plus the complete support of the High Lords of Terra. Phase two begins breaking the power of the Primarchs. The High Lord know that if they do not stamp out the capability of the Primarchs to field thousands of genetically enhanced Marines it could be a threat to them.

The High Lords mandate Guilliman to come up with a way to break the legions into smaller forces and a set of rules for them to follow. So Guilliman creates the Codex Astartes and the High Lords mandate all Legions must be split and follow it’s edicts.

The end result is for the Primarchs to fall in line or be declared traitors to the Imperium and wiped out. The High Lords Of Terra have secured their power and diluted chances of the Primarchs to threaten their power. The citizens of the Imperium get a hero to look up too in the wake of the Heresy.

I'm not posting this to change anybodies mind, I just thought I'd add the possibility of; What if?

Slag me if you'd like but this is how I see the 40K universe. It's full of dark half truths and lies. I believe it's more fun this way. :evilgrin:

Arkley
22-09-2007, 22:05
Crap, really, well I quoted this from the article also "Dorn knew that many of his Battle Brothers did not wish to found new chapters as the Ultramarines where eager to do. There would be far too many left for oneof the new thousand strong chapters. Leaving Phalanx, he led these die hard warriors against the Iron Warriors in their lair."

In short he didn't take his whole legion to the Iron Cage and I never stated he did, he only took those that knew would not be willing to leave the Fists knowing they prefered death, hence he was free to adhere to the Codex Astartes without issue, as I said he was in a better position, are you sure you read the article?

So.... Lets see he led many? if we assume the IF were a Legion of 30k strong and many meaning say 66%? is that a fair assumption? he took about 20k? even more considering the IF split into the CF, BT and of course the IF. That left 3k of marines... He took I would say most of his legion.

I know you are a IF player so I can understand your defence of them. We are not so different when people start to rip our armies background apart.

jb85
22-09-2007, 22:08
Was that all? The Chaos Gods must've gotten more picky as of late... Ygethmor was told he had to sacrifice an entire planet to ascend, and that was after several lifetimes of service.

The Chaos Gods were giving out daemonhoods like sweets in them days. What did they give Angron one for, losing a staring contest with Sanguinius during the Siege of Terra :p

P.S. An essay on Dorn might have been a better choice :D

Splagbot
22-09-2007, 22:09
Bare in mind that the Fists took heavy losses during the Siege of the Emperors Palace and he also spent a lot of time after the Horus Heresy crusading so he would have taken more losses, most of his legion probably wasn't that much compared to others by by that point.

Arkley
22-09-2007, 22:12
The point is mate he did let his pride override his decisions and was prepared to die for it... He played into Perturabo's hands :(

Splagbot
22-09-2007, 22:19
Yes indeed, pride was a common problem with the Primarchs and Dorn was no different, I was simply stating that when Dorn went to the Iron Cage he knew exactly what he was doing, in truth the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists where helping each other immesurabely with the whole Iron Cage thing and they didn't even know it.

Progena
22-09-2007, 22:33
P.S. An essay on Dorn might have been a better choice :D

And you don't think that'd get me accused of "ripping the background of peoples armies apart"? :p

I'm doing damagecontrol now. Well, at least I can comfort myself with the fact that I never stooped so low as to use terms as "Smurfs" or "Vanilla Marines". :rolleyes:

I did my so called 'Essay' in character at least.

Arkley
22-09-2007, 22:41
I'm doing damagecontrol now. Well, at least I can comfort myself with the fact that I never stooped so low as to use terms as "Smurfs" or "Vanilla Marines". :rolleyes:

I did my so called 'Essay' in character at least.

I have to say thats why I tend to get fired up about my Ultramarines... bastards like that make me see red. I get sick of people like that its one of the reasons I don't play in the shops.

Splagbot
22-09-2007, 22:58
I can certainly agree with you there, I hate slang terms like that and sorry if I came across a little overbearing there, I just get really fired up when people start on the Imperial Fists and Rogal Dorn, people just seem to do it so often.:(

Arkley
22-09-2007, 23:02
Yeah mate we both got a little prideful :D....

Its the same with alot of the 40k History 2 sides to each story half the tiem we don't hear the other side :(...

DantesInferno
22-09-2007, 23:12
To just give my opinion on the original topic, there's no reason that the "or" in the topic has to be an exclusive disjunction (ie. one or the other but not both).

For me, Guilliman was both a Hero of the Imperium and, at times, an obnoxious sycophant. He managed to piece the Imperium together after the devastation of the Heresy, and set up a galactic regime that has lasted about 30 times as long as the regime the Emperor had established.....

He did what was needed to be done: breaking up the Legions, developing the High Lords, rebuilding the Imperium. In a very real sense, the Imperium is Roboute's creation, not the Emperor's.

And yet, the man appears to have been a bit of a ******. His treatment of Alpharius in particular makes him seem rather petty and arrogant.

So in short, there's no reason he couldn't be both.

nagash66
22-09-2007, 23:56
Look Smurfs will be Smurfs enough said, now as to the character of papa Smurf? Who knows? All I know is the when the BA, IF and WS were standing against Horus the Smurfs were role playing lost in space :D

Arkley
23-09-2007, 00:26
Jackass...

charlie_c67
23-09-2007, 00:43
Look Smurfs will be Smurfs enough said, now as to the character of papa Smurf? Who knows? All I know is the when the BA, IF and WS were standing against Horus the Smurfs were role playing lost in space :D

A really unhelpful and needless comment aimed at just provoking problems.

I don't think sycophant is really the correct word you want. He was a hero, but he wasn't a kiss-ass.

From dictionary.com sycophant

noun
a person who tries to please someone in order to gain a personal advantage

Now who exactly was he trying to please and flatter when he kept the Imperium together and wrote the CI? Certainly not his brothers that had remained loyal. Big daddy E was in the throne so it wasn't him. Or the high lordas who woulda had a hell of a time keeping the imperium together if the legions had let them go hang. In retrospect, and based on dealings with all siblings throughout life, I think the phrase you're really looking for is Roboute Guilliman: Hero or, at times, a bit an ****?.

Arkley
23-09-2007, 00:45
Charlie_c67 you are still haunting this place? :)

Erebus26
23-09-2007, 01:00
Hey calm down you guys - it's just like the debriefing of the Siege of Terra where everybody just lays into one another!!!!

A bit of an unhelpful comment there Nagash as your getting the Sons of Dorns and Sons of Guilliman fired up! I think both Primarchs actions during the heresy, especially Dorn, proved that they were stoic supporters of the Big E. As a Chaos fanboy I'm committing heresy saying this, but Dorn held it all together during the siege of terra - he was the guy who organised the counter-attack against Horus, and then organised the defence of Mars and Terra. After 55 days of fighting with the result of seeing your father, and two of your brothers dead would have been hard to stomach, so if the guy made a mistake at the Iron Cage then you could understand it!!!

Although I must say that the Iron Warriors IA does say the the lapdogs of Dorn(I couldn't be nice to you loyalists forever could I!!!) got the worst of it!!! But given that they both siege and defence specialists a sort of stalemate was always on the cards!

nagash66
23-09-2007, 10:15
Ok my bad it was a bit (ok very) unhelpful and I fully apologise to all the ultramarines out there, bur I really don’t like Roboute Gulliman

jb85
23-09-2007, 10:28
As a Chaos fanboy I'm committing heresy saying this, but Dorn held it all together during the siege of terra

I think that particular bit of credit goes to the guy with the big wings :D

Progena
23-09-2007, 12:19
I don't think sycophant is really the correct word you want. He was a hero, but he wasn't a kiss-ass.

I was referring (very overdramatically) to the incident where Guilliman confronts Lorgar with his lack of progress imediatly after the Emperor had done the exact same thing. If you take the an extreme view of that, it might seem slightly sycophantic. Sort of like: "Yes father, you were completly right, Lorgar should be ashamed of himself."

But then again, all the Primarchs wanted the Emperors favour, Lorgar perhaps more than any of his brothers. I would too if my father loved one of my brothers (if I had brothers) more than me. Horus seemed to be his father's favourite.

Erebus26
23-09-2007, 12:35
I think that particular bit of credit goes to the guy with the big wings :D


Yeah he did do a lot of the scrapping didn't he!!! But I think Dorn did all the planning and organisation side of things. I'm not saying anything else because I'm not going to argue with BA fanboys as well - they're deadly!!! :D

Temmy
23-09-2007, 12:57
What if Dorn walked into the Iron cage with a different agenda? A reading of the fluff seems to indicate he knew the Iron Cage would be a slaughterhouse. He then made sure all the die hards and those unwilling to conform to Roboute's reforms were killed off. He then used those who remained to rebuild and then retrain to compliance with the codex.

RedStompa
23-09-2007, 18:41
many of these threats only exist because of the actions of Guilliman and his protégés?

How?

They never encountered the tyranids before so how could they prepare for something they didn't know existed?

The Tau are no threat to the Imperium.

I would not put the blame on one man for all the threats to the imperium.

charlie_c67
24-09-2007, 00:07
...If you take the an extreme view of that, it might seem slightly sycophantic. Sort of like: "Yes father, you were completly right, Lorgar should be ashamed of himself."...

Having re-read the IA article in question I'm not sure where you got this information from. The Emperor was the one who told off Lorgar, and then said the UM's were a shining example of the best warriors (which then makes you wonder why he made Horus warmaster not Guilliman), I can't find anything in it about RG just towing the party line.

Yes Arkley, I'm still around. Someone's gotta stick up for SM's after all ;)

Master Bait
24-09-2007, 00:45
Not much of a balanced essay is it, you have taken all the incidents and put maximum negative spin on it. Even forgetting that your essay is riddled with factual errors.

wamp wahhhhhhhh

Hive Mind 33
24-09-2007, 04:23
What if Dorn walked into the Iron cage with a different agenda? A reading of the fluff seems to indicate he knew the Iron Cage would be a slaughterhouse. He then made sure all the die hards and those unwilling to conform to Roboute's reforms were killed off. He then used those who remained to rebuild and then retrain to compliance with the codex.

Why would he do that though. He could have pule a Russ sign it and say eh whatever. The SW never officialy split. and the wolf brothers were created with the geneseed not taken from the SW legion itself.

DantesInferno
24-09-2007, 05:37
What if Dorn walked into the Iron cage with a different agenda? A reading of the fluff seems to indicate he knew the Iron Cage would be a slaughterhouse. He then made sure all the die hards and those unwilling to conform to Roboute's reforms were killed off. He then used those who remained to rebuild and then retrain to compliance with the codex.

"Damn, I've got too many Space Marines to fit into Chapters. What should I do about it? I know - I'll march them into killing fields that my nemesis has set up, just so he can slaughter all these excess Marines and I won't have to bother. Yes, I know our Imperium is still teetering on the brink of destruction after the slaughter of the Heresy, and that we need every single Marine we can get to protect what we have and win back the worlds we lost in the Heresy. Yes, I know that if I get lots of my men needlessly slaughtered, it'll just mean the Imperium has to rely even more on Guilliman's gene-seed. But how else am I going to get my men killed if I don't throw them into Perturabo's meat-grinder?"

If you can read the IA: Imperial Fists article with a straight face at that point, you're doing a lot better than me. It's just more evidence that you shouldn't read everything written in a 3rd person, apparently objective standpoint as absolute word of god.

Eetion
24-09-2007, 07:17
Maybe in such terms it sounds silly... But if phrased like this.

"Damn you Roboute, the Imperiums almost tearing itself apart over this damned codex, and the majority of my Legion despises the idea, if i have any hope of pacifying this overbearing idiot Roboute, and averting civil war again im going to have to do something drastic. Perturabos dug himself in like a tick, Ill take those breathren and give him a thrashing, hopefully his will make my children think a bit clearer, that we each must make sacrifices"

The likelyhood is Dorn didnt know the extent of the ambush he was walking into... Either way Dorn needed to get perturabo out, and reform his Legion, the level headed breathren were the CF, the zealots the BT, and what about the others? It could be that Dorn was trying to create a brotherhood within the warriors by combat. This of course went to pot when the nature of the Iron Cage was revealed.

To assume that Dorn inteded to walk into a meatgrinder 'which assumes he knew it was a trap to begin with' is folly. But can be equally assumed, hate and vengeance played a big part in his decision too.

Temmy
24-09-2007, 14:03
To assume that Dorn inteded to walk into a meatgrinder 'which assumes he knew it was a trap to begin with' is folly. But can be equally assumed, hate and vengeance played a big part in his decision too.

There is historical precedent for this kind of thing. There are several examples of leaders and Kings who have an intractable warrior class planning campaigns that they know will kill off the most bellicose making it easier for the leader in question to rule.

Wolflord Havoc
24-09-2007, 14:25
Roboute Guilliman: Hero of the Imperium or Obnoxious Sycophant?
An Essay on said Primarch and his Ultramarines by Progena.

We all know that Imperial history tells of the heroic actions of the Ultramarines and their Primarch during the time of Great Crusade and the Heresy. But what do we really know about the character of Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the largest Astartes military organization that has ever roamed the Galaxy?

We know that Guilliman pounced on his brother Primarch Lorgar when the Emperor rejected his worship, adding insult to injury by rubbing said rejection in Lorgar's face earning him and his Legion the eternal enmity of the Word Bearers. He completely alienated his youngest brother Alpharius, telling him that he and his Legion would never live up to the glorious reputation of Roboute himself, the other great Primarchs and their Legions. He practically drove Alpharius into the arms of Horus and the Chaos Gods.

When Horus instructed Lorgar to tie up the Ultramarines Legion at their stronghold, the Realm of Ultramar, Lorgar only sent a portion of his forces under Kor Phaeron to challenge the largest Legion in the Imperium, a Legion that may or may not have been larger than all the Traitor Legions put together. With only the element of surprise on their side the Word Bearers drove the Ultramarines before them. Their momentum was finally lost at Calth where Roboute managed to gather his forces for a desperate counter push. Still, with all the resources of his Legion, their Imperial Army allies and the resources of an entire Empire within the Imperium on his side he wasn't able to wipe out the forces of Kor Phaeron, merely chase them into the Maelstrom. The Word Bearers' mission was accomplished; they had kept the Ultramarines from relieving the all-important Siege of Terra.

When Guilliman returned to Terra after the enthronement of the Emperor, he set about establishing himself as the most powerful figure in the Imperium. He compiled the 'Codex Astartes' and forced his reforms and edicts, some of which went against the commandments of the Emperor himself, on the entire military organization of the Imperium. He, as we all know, wanted to separate the Primarchs from their sons by splitting the Legions into Chapters. When his brother Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists, defender of the Emperors Palace, refused to bow down before him he gathered Corax of the Raven Guard and Jaghatai Khan, the Primarch of a shattered Legion and the nomad leader of Astartes inclined to operate independently of their Primarch anyway, to his cause and threatened to sunder the Imperium yet again in another cataclysmic Civil War that would forever have destroyed the Emperors dream of a united humanity. The powerful yet humble Primarch Dorn did not want all they had fought and died for to end that way and submitted to his brother's megalomania. He set out to prepare his Legion for their separation from their beloved Primarch through the fires of battle so that the new Astartes Chapters formed from his Fists, who would forever be marked by his supposed 'near rebellion' against the Imperium, would only consist of truly magnificent and loyal warrior-brethren.

Later, Roboute Guilliman tracked down his lost brother Alpharius who operated on the Eastern Rim Worlds and struck him down, yet Alpharius had prepared his sons for this eventuality and even leaderless the Alpha Legion was able to beat of the Ultramarines. Guilliman had severed the head of the Hydra, but in its place, countless other heads grew and the poison of those heads seep through the worlds of the Ultima Segmentum in trickles of corruption that will one day grow into an unstoppable flood of rebellion.

Guilliman put the responsibility of containing Kor Phaeron's Word Bearers within the Maelstrom, which also lies in Segmentum Ultima, upon the shoulders of the White Scars Chapter, the men of the Khan who had supported his Codex. Their home world lay closer to the Maelstrom than Guillimans Realm of Ultramar, but a mere Space Marine Chapter could not hope to suppress this vast expanse of Real space/Warp space overlay. Thus other newly formed Chapters were stationed there or specifically formed for that purpose, such as the Astral Claws who were corrupted by the influence of the Maelstrom and turned renegade and now gather disillusioned Space Marines from all over the Imperium to the banner of the Red Corsairs.

As for the Ultramarines themselves, they weren't able to save the jewel of their Empire from the vanguard fleet of the Tyranid Hive Mind, simply because their holy Codex Astartes did not describe the proper tactics to employ against the Tyranid Menace. They had lost all abilities of independent and innovative thought due to their dependence on Guillimans Codex.

So when we look at all the threats the Imperium face on the Eastern Front and in the heart of Segmentum Ultima, the Segmentum dominated by the presence of Ultramar, the threats of Traitors of the Word Bearers and Night Lords, Cultists of the Alpha Legion, Renegades of the Red Corsairs, Alien threats from Tyranid Invasion, Tau Expansionism and the Awakening of the Necrontyr, how can the High Lords of Terra turn to the Ultramarines for guidance and protection when many of these threats only exist because of the actions of Guilliman and his protégés?

Nah, I blame Horus and the weak willed fools who followed him

General Fishsticks
24-09-2007, 16:10
But he should've told his marines that, before he got mortally wounded by the Daemon Prince formerly known as Fulgrim, because that's how they see it.
Ultramarines aren't so bad, a bit uptight perhaps... It's Guilliman I don't like, he strikes me as arrogant.

To your first point, the Codex has become a sacrament, a bible to the marines - and we all can observe the literalists of the bible. Furthermore, with the arch theocratic culture of the Imperium, deviation from the holy word is heresy...

Often as is the irony of the written word, what is often created to inspire and develop is taken by those who receive it as gospel and unchanging!

As for your second point. I don't doubt that Guilliman would be an arrogant man - humility rarely begets greatness. Achilles, Heracles, Odysesus or Julius Caesar, Augustus, etc - classical heroic figures both real and imagined have rarely been without arrogance; and if you go with the Ultramarines motif, then it would be appropriate that Guilleman fit in with the Greek/Roman heroic mould.