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Kage2020
22-09-2007, 18:26
Right, I'm after hunting down as many references to the relative "power levels" of psykers from the different Psyker Grades (e.g. Alpha, Beta, Gamma... Omega, etc.). I know that the new "Inquisition" book has some reference to this, so would anyone care to share some light on it?

Also, what other references to the "power" of psykers do we have? I know that with the 40k universe it's difficult, especially with Alpha class psykers and the idea that they can "break titans in half" etc. But what is there?

Finally, if you were going to model the difference between psykers, how would you do it?

(Yes, this is a question for the RPG interpretation of the psykers of the 40k universe. I'm out to find some more inspiration on how to handle this very necessary part of any RPG set in the 40k universe...)

Kage

P.S. Please don't post links towards Black Industries forthcoming 40k RPG, Dark Heresy. Yes, there's a 40k RPG to be released, but not only is it not out yet (not until February 2008) but the chances are that anything that covers the full scope of the psyker question isn't going to be addressed for a further 3-4 years, if it is at all. :D

Progena
22-09-2007, 18:44
Alpha level psykers can bring planets to their knees in a matter of months (or spawn a legion of Daemons that does it even faster). Alpha plus Psykers... well, lets say sectors aren't big enough for them. All are über rare.

Now search the web for a Greek alphabet.

Most important levels:

-Omega: "Cullexus wants you!"
-Rho to Pi: "Relax, you're not a mutant".
-Omnicron to Epsilon: "Report to your local Inquisitorial Stronghol immidiatly".
-Delta and above: "Please don't kill me..."
-Alpha Plus: "You're a loony, get used to it."

Scale goes from reverse (through normal) to plus (highest ever recorded is Alpha Plus on Humans, mostly speculation after that).

And... buy the book, it's great! :P

Mr Zephy
22-09-2007, 19:50
I'd imagine that the Sanctioned Psychers in the IG codex would count as omnicron to epsilon ( because of their random table, some are more powerful than others)

Also, have you heard of this book that BL are publishing, like 40k, but like, an RPG?

Progena
22-09-2007, 19:58
Also, have you heard of this book that BL are publishing, like 40k, but like, an RPG?

http://www.blackindustries.com/?template=40k

Enjoy.

Kage2020
22-09-2007, 21:50
Just in case, remember that I do know the odd thing about the 'fluff.'


Alpha level psykers can bring planets to their knees in a matter of months...
Aye, it is difficult to separate the hyperbole from 40k descriptions. After all, any appropriately skilled psyker might be able to do this.


...or spawn a legion of Daemons that does it even faster...
To be honest, though, remember the original descriptions of psykers. The reason that they're feared is that each psyker is a potential portal for daemons. Of course, the ability to summon daemons - voluntarily, that is - is not something that is necessarily unique to psykers.


Now search the web for a Greek alphabet.
Amusingly not necessary. ;)


And... buy the book, it's great! :P
That's what someone said about Xenology, and all I got was a lemon. What I have heard elsewhere was that the book was a disappointment, so I'm more than hesitant to lay out the money for it.


Also, have you heard of this book that BL are publishing, like 40k, but like, an RPG?
Remembering, of course, that I asked that people not post links to Dark Heresy. ;) Not only isn't it released yet (and won't be until February of next year) but, well, chances are you're going to have to wait another 3-4 years to see an interpretation of the "full scale" of psykers.

Hmmn... It definitely is hard to distinguish, or even create an interpretation, on how powerful psykers are compared to each other. Not only do you have different abilities, but so much "planet destroying" stuff for the higher grades that it's easy to go, "Yep. No point of representing them..."

Maybe an inappropriate thread for this forum. Ah well. My bad.

Kage

Progena
22-09-2007, 22:01
Remembering, of course, that I asked that people not post links to Dark Heresy. ;) Not only isn't it released yet (and won't be until February of next year) but, well, chances are you're going to have to wait another 3-4 years to see an interpretation of the "full scale" of psykers.

No, you speciafically stated not to direct you to the Dark Heresy. You weren't the one asking now were you? ;)

Kage2020
22-09-2007, 22:07
Fairs, fair... That's true. Of course, that depends on how you read the statement by Mr Zephy. Regardless, it's a fairly non-productive link in the first place. I shall, however, edit my post to be even more specific. Just in case.

Ah well.

Kage

Progena
22-09-2007, 22:23
I really should pretend that I "knew" he was just being a smart ass (no offence, only appropriate term I could come up with) and wasn't really asking. Didn't read the entire thread in one go. Usuallt good at picking up stuff like that. I feel kinda stupid now. I should check people's ranks before I answer their questions I guess.

One more thing that's in the book though. It states that it's theorised that if a being reached Zeta Plus level it ceases to exist as a material being and instead becomes a non-corporeal being. The mind frees itself from its owner.

Not much description of 'power levels' nor anything new on the Psychic Disciplines front either. Actually there's nothing new in the book, I just like it because it's a mini encyclopedia. Finally got pinned down Amasec as being akin to Brandy though.

Crazy Tom
22-09-2007, 23:17
As of 'Ravenor', there's now all different sub-types of psyker as well - like Zaph (sp) who 'mirrors' other peoples' psychic talent, and Patience Kys who seems solely telekinetic. So I'd imagine Progena's list is about the closest you'll get to a grading system. The other way to do it is to go through the fluff and stat each psyker based on what they can do. Malleus by Dan Abnett has a bunch of Alpha+ level psykers running around wreaking havoc, while I think Eisenhorn is supposed to be Kappa level (capable of influencing the weak-minded, a la the force) and Voke, who is much stronger, has some TK powers - IIRC he prevents Eisenhorn (under alpha+ level psyker influence) from killing himself by freezing his hand to his bolt pistol. Patience Kys can lift a heavy man with TK, but sadly I don't think it's ever stated what level she is. And then there's Gideon Ravenor, who can 'astral project' himself, read people's minds, blast a man into a wall with force enough to kill him instantly and also 'ware' other members of his party. He fights a man called Kinsky, who was 'much stronger' than him, capable of mind-reading and brute-force possession. And there's Esarhaddon (sp?) from Malleus, who mind-controls a huge number of people and uses them as his private army.

So... I'll try a rough list, hopefully that'll be a starting point....

1. Esarhaddon - Alpha
2. Kinsky - Delta level?
3. Gideon Ravenor - possibly Epsilon, based on Kinsky being a good deal stronger than him.
4. Patience Kys
5. Voke
6. Eisenhorn - Kappa? Most likely weaker, I'll have to check my books again.

I think the main problem is in the way pskyer powers seem divided between TK and TP.

robertsjf
22-09-2007, 23:51
While we're scaling them are you also wanting different styles a la Necromunda (ie pyro-type psyker, telekinetic, empathic etc)? I mean, if I was an alpha plus pyro, I imagine that would be worlds different from an alpha plus impath. Or is that completely off the point?

bertcom1
23-09-2007, 00:00
If you were going to model the difference between psykers, how would you do it?

You may find some useful stuff here (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-background/43151-background-check-for-describing-modelling-pyskers-in-a-40k-rpg-post822127.html#post822127)......:chrome:

Some psykers can control weather, distort time, "read objects", and other less obviously battlefield related activities.

Most background stuff is about destructive forces. Lightning bolts from nostrils, that sort of jive.

So, just like everything else not battlefield related, you might have to use the too common "It Varies" stuff.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
23-09-2007, 00:24
Finally, if you were going to model the difference between psykers, how would you do it?


This is a pretty difficult one, I mean what is the difference? they have more power, very difficult to show on a model. The way I personally would do it is by progressing from people who look just like normal people, then some who have amulets and bald heads etc, typical psyker indicators, progressing gradually up to a crazed psyker, I'd imagine this kind of like the high super-saiyon levels in DragonBall Z, wind blowing, glowing, screaming...

I don't know if you know much about the DBZ universe, there is some information and links to pictures here: http://www.danjco.com/levelofss.htm

A question as to what you are looking for, are you talking about psyker grades in the imperium (for imperium citizens) or are other races included?

Vaulkhar
23-09-2007, 00:59
The scale you're talking about is known as ''The Assignment'. Progena's got most of it. Highest known human is Alpha Plus - though psykers with this kind of power are such a magnet for daemons that insanity, possession and death are inevitable unless the Inquisition and the Adeptus Astra Telepathica get to them first (in which case, skip straight to 'death' in 90% of cases).

The full scale runs through the greek alphabet. Human baseline is around rho or pi with anything below that indicating an increasing degree of untouchable ability. Psi or Omega level is a basic prerequisite for Culexus assassins.

Above Alpha plus, the scale reverses, going Beta plus, Gamma plus, etc, etc. By the time you get to this level of power, you are talkig about warp entitie and possibly Eldar Farseers. God-Emperor only knows where Eldrad came on this scale.

Incidentally, I'd always assumed that the scale was logarithmic - each grade being 10 times more powerful than the one above. So a Gamma works out at about 10 times as powerful as a Delta and 100 times more powerful than an Epsilon. It certainly explains the havoc an A+ can cause...they would be on the order of 10,000,000,000,000 times as powerful as a baseline human.

Lord Merlin
23-09-2007, 01:14
According to my sources the most powerful human psyker ever, Magnus and the Emperor were not anything plus, but Apex level , meaning the top of the food chain. The only thing I can see matching either of them would be either a pure greater daemon or if all the orks united and then we'd all be screwed anyway. Or possibly one or two eldar farseers, Eldrad included. Then again do the Emperor and Magnus count as human?

Vaulkhar
23-09-2007, 01:17
I think Apex level has been quietly retconned out in favour of the new scale (though you could slot Apex in above Omega Plus).

Magnus - no, Daemon Primarch. Pretty much under the heading of 'warp entity'

The Emperor - Not while he's plugged into the Golden Throne.

Lord Merlin
23-09-2007, 01:24
Well I meant during the Great Crusade. Or if somebody grew a brain in the inquisition and unplugged the Emperor so he could reincarnate and fix stuff. But you are right about Magnus. Jeez, primarchs were nasty.

izandral
23-09-2007, 02:52
eldrad appears to me more talented and experienced than really powerful in terms of raw power. of course he's got power but i don't think he's so off the scale.

as for the emperor , did he begin to broadcast the astronomicon before the heresy ? if so then HE is off the scale. where talking much more than just influencing a world here (not that it's a small task in itself)

LordXaras
23-09-2007, 03:45
On the Conclave it was noted that the Imperium has another method of grading psykers, which notes psykers that have utter and complete control of their powers as "Primaris"-psykers. When these are found aboard the Black Ships they are immediately singled out and begin Astropath training or something else the Imperium might have use of. It was suggested that this could be used to have a more specific scale (since Alpha-Omega only speaks for power level, not control).

For example:
Psyker Ben is a sanctioned battlefield psyker with the Imperial Guard, he is a Lambda Tertiaris psyker, a guy who's got a moderate level of power, but he's quite good at controlling it.

Johnny, on the other hand, is in Inquisitorial Custody after destroying a decent portion of a small hive. They have just classed him Beta Denaris, indicating his high power-level but also his complete inability to control it. Good bye Johnny.

This scale only applies to human psykers drawing directly from the Warp, thus cannot accurately describe Eldar Seers (who use runes to draw Warp energy) or Chaos Magi or Sorcerors (who often make use of Daemonic Pacts and spells instead of tapping the Aethyr directly).

EDIT: If clarification is needed:
The proposed classification is divided into two parts. Part one uses the old system and simply notes the Psyker's power level using the greek alphabet. The second part defines the psyker's control level, and uses these designations:
Primaris - Complete instinctual control
Secondaris
Tetriaris
Quaternaris
Quinaris - Moderate Control
Senaris
Septenaris
Octonaris
Nonaris
Denaris - No or lacking control

Mr Zephy
23-09-2007, 09:21
Fairs, fair... That's true. Of course, that depends on how you read the statement by Mr Zephy. Regardless, it's a fairly non-productive link in the first place. I shall, however, edit my post to be even more specific. Just in case.

Ah well.

Kage


Sorry, i did actually understand the post ( hence why my post had a small smattering of useful content), but i was just teasing you (and i think i succeeded) :D

To hopefully add something more useful: i'd imagine that the most powerful Tau psychic potential would be pi. Humans in general hae a much higher psychic ability.

Tehkonrad
23-09-2007, 10:16
Weell i dont knows whats you young'uns is ravin' 'bouts alls I know's is that an alpha'll blow up a titan double-quick like y'all [redneck/]

zekrish
23-09-2007, 10:37
Alpha lvl psykers can tear a warhound titan in bits and controll entire imperial guard regiment!!! They are the pwn incarnate!

Crazy Tom
23-09-2007, 11:14
Where does this happen? Or is it just stated in a codex?

Vaulkhar
23-09-2007, 11:31
That would make sense LordXaras - though in the interests of grammar, perhaps Secundus and Tertius would make for better second and third grade notations. I'd note that Primaris and maybe some Secundus would not need Soul Binding, and form the pool for Inquisitorial and Librarian recruits.

The Tau are unusual in that what should be a Bell curve is in fact a very tight spread around omicron through rho. Yet more evidence of their unnatural nature and obvious deserving of the Emperor's justice...after we've opened up an Ethereal and figured out what makes that neat little instant obedience mechanism tick...

Mr Zephy
23-09-2007, 11:45
I'd say that the Tau spectrum is likely to be a bell curve, just a very steep one on a scale invented by humans.

DantesInferno
23-09-2007, 12:21
Alpha lvl psykers can tear a warhound titan in bits and controll entire imperial guard regiment!!! They are the pwn incarnate!


Where does this happen? Or is it just stated in a codex?

Take a look <here> (http://uk.games-workshop.com/witchhunters/villainy-infamy/3/) and <here> (http://uk.games-workshop.com/witchhunters/villainy-infamy/1/). I'm sure there are some more concrete examples of what Alpha level psykers are capable of - the destruction of Battle Titans seems to get thrown around a lot, so presumably there's some background for it somewhere.