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View Full Version : Nurgle Cloud of Flies VS "Always hits on"-spells ?



Fulgrim's-Chosen
23-09-2007, 03:52
I'm thinking of something like ...say... a standard Wizard character for the Empire with Flaming Sword of Rhuin activated.

He NORMALLY has "always hits on a 2+ in close-combat" - while the spell is active.


He has a "base weapon skill" of 3, let's say...so he'd NORMALLY need a 4+ to hit a WS-4 Plaguebearer, and that would get nerfed to a 5+ thanks to the awesome power of Cloud of Flies.

BUT...because of Flaming Sword...his Weapon Skill VS opponents Weapon Skill comparison isn't done...instead he "always hits on a 2+".

NOW...we factor / consider the Cloud of Flies again. Surely it's not "wasted".... but what exactly happens ?

Does the "always 2+" become an "always 3+" because of the -1 to-hit penalty of Cloud of Flies ?

Or do you do a "dice off", as some have suggested, and see who rolls highest...as to which power takes precedence ? Even so though, going that way, you couldn't have it so that one COMPLETELY negates the other....as then you are doing something that neither ability is supposed to normally do.


So...how is this handled in most cases ? It can't be THAT uncommon of an example either, as I am sure there have been many battles fought over the years, between armies with wizards that can take the Lore of Fire, and armies dedicated to Nurgle which have units with Cloud of Flies in them !

Thoughts ?

505
23-09-2007, 05:04
this should go in rules section.
most often dice off for it. or as I like to do I hit you on 2s in my turn I hit you on 3 n your turn. nice and simple

Jonke
23-09-2007, 05:28
Normally in all 'irresistable force' vs. 'unmoveable object' cases you should dice of every turn to see which one takes precedence.

This one is a little weird though, but I'd say dice off, flaming sword wins=hits on 2+, cloud wins=hits on 5+.

Of course you can simply agree with your opponent the mage hits on 3+.

Peace!

Rioghan Murchadha
23-09-2007, 06:55
I dunno.. Linguistically, it's pretty clear. 'Always' is pretty concrete and hard to argue with.

Always, is so broad that it actually encompasses 'when attacking an opponent surrounded by a cloud of flies.'

Always: (adverb) every time; on every occasion; without exception.

Griefbringer
23-09-2007, 08:35
This should be on the rules forum.

And as previously mentioned, always means always - any hit modifiers are ignored.

Festus
23-09-2007, 08:47
Hi

Yes, always hits on *fixed number* trumps any modifiers, because modifiers modify the to-hit-roll, which then plops back to the *fixed number*.

There are a few of those, like Banner of the Barrows...or even the mundane attack across a wall or attacking a feared enemy.


Festus

Abduction
23-09-2007, 18:26
The spells says "always hits on 2+". So the Cloud of Flies specila rule don't have any effect against the spell.

Khorne warrior
23-09-2007, 19:11
Id say hit on a 3+, as it is a good happy medium.

T10
23-09-2007, 19:34
Yes, always hits on *fixed number* trumps any modifiers, because modifiers modify the to-hit-roll, which then plops back to the *fixed number*.


The Flaming Sword doesn't say "always hits on 2+". It says "All the Wizard's attacks will hit on a basic score of of 2+".

Apply modifers to the dice roll and you will find that the "2" you rolled is actually a "1" and therefore a miss!

-T10

Atrahasis
23-09-2007, 20:22
"basic score of 2+".

A modified score is not a basic score.

Festus
23-09-2007, 20:27
Agreed...

Festus

T10
23-09-2007, 20:31
"basic score of 2+".

A modified score is not a basic score.

Agreed.

-T10

GodHead
23-09-2007, 20:57
Wow this comes up a lot.

I still stand by the following table, first derived here:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46066

They decided on:
Attacker Ability...............Defender Ability...................Result

Auto Hit........................Only on 6(or 5 etc)............ AutoHit
Auto Hits.......................1st hit discounted.............Both apply
Auto Hit....................... -1 modifier........................Auto hit
+1 to Hit.......................Only on 6(etc)...................Hit on 5+
+1 to Hit....................... -1 modifier......................both apply
Hit on 3+ (or 2+ etc)........Only on 6(etc).................Dice Roll
Hit on 3+ (or 2+ etc)........-1 modifier.............Dice Roll unless *
Hit on 6......................... -1 modifier.................... Dice Roll
Autowound..................... 1st wound discounted......Both apply

*Banner of the Barrows

TK Destroyer of Eternities: 2 autohits does No rolls.
HOC Beguiling Gem: Hits automatically. No rolls mentioned.
O&G Kickin Boots: 1 autohit

+1 to Hit: HE Darting Steel, Flaming Sword, Rune of Snorri
-1 to Hit: O&G Effigy of Mork
discount 1st Hit: O&G Lucky Shield

Hit on 3+ : VC Banner of Barrows
Hit on 2+ : Empire Sword of Righteous Steel
Hit on 6 : Failed fear test

-1 to being hit: Cloud of Flies, VC Cursed book
(Be hit on) Only on 6: Entrenchment *or Annoyance of Netlings*

*stomps off to put this in the Sticky FAQ at the top of the rules forum.

Festus
23-09-2007, 21:26
Hi

This list is from the last edition, unfortunately.

Some things have been changed, most notably the tie-breaker for strike first, which was used as a precedence for the *roll-off* results of the table.

I wouldn't be so sure anymore about those *roll-offs* (and I never was even in the old edition. I take always hits on X as exactly that, usually).

Festus

Fulgrim's-Chosen
24-09-2007, 04:51
Yeah, it's a curious question . . . to be sure, and I thought about putting in Rules specifically, shortly after posting it in Fantasy-General ...thanks to the mod, etc. who moved it, in any event.

I figured there must be SOME way this is "regularly played" in offical Games Workshop tournaments though ...so "going into it", players would know how such a (fairly common I would think) situation would be resolved.

Like I said...any Fire Wizard can get Flaming Sword of Rhuin and most Nurgle Chaos armies will have at least one unit (possibly) of Plaguebearers, so it can't be THAT rare of an encounter / event.

Alathir
24-09-2007, 07:20
These sitations are a little odd... but I work them like this. The Flaming Sword, a spell which can be dispelled etc., only works for a certain time it will trump a constant ability like the cloud of flies, imagine it like the 'magic' being poured into the spell is in greater bursts than the 'magic' of the constant cloud of flies. Similiar situations arise with, for instance, Bretonnia's Tress of Isolude (hits on 2+ for a single combat round) versus the Wood Elf's Annoyance of Netlings. Since the Tress only works for a single round, it trumps the Annoyance.

ZomboCom
24-09-2007, 19:12
Generally, most people play that "Always hits on x+" ignores all modifiers.

It's the simplest solution.

Of course in situations where 2 confliciting "always hits on x+" effects are in place, it's a dice off, e.g. banner of the barrows vs annoyance of nettlings.