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Pooky
25-09-2007, 10:43
I was reading the new CSM codex and it paints a wonderful but sadly tragic picture for a poor SM who falls from grace. And then there was also the unfortunate incident when a whole chapter falls to Chaos, post HH. This got me thinking: what if there was a chapter of SM and they only believed in having chaplins as HQ's. Chaplins are meant to be the most zealous, and even a little bent, towards the Emperor and having Faith. If there is a commander/ master at the helm then they still have a chance (wether it be slim or not) to turn.

Now, I can foresee someone telling me about the Word Bearers and how their Chaplins embraced Chaos. But it's not like that happens anymore, is it?

Chaplins all round! Chaplins for all!

Terrordar
25-09-2007, 10:52
I was about to bring up the Word Bearers, yea :P

but the thing about that circumstance and how it isn't valid, as you point out, is because they literally invented their own religion and fanatically follow Lorgar. quite different from modern Chaplins.

CELS
25-09-2007, 14:22
Chaplains. Chaplains. Chaplin was an actor.

A Space Marine Chapter with Captains inducted into the Chaplains' "lodge" would be possible, I suppose. The Ultramarines would frown upon it, but they frown on a lot of things.

Witchfire
25-09-2007, 15:37
thats forbidden under codex astares, and therefore unthinkable.

look at the fuss when tyrannic war veterans were introduced.

anyway, chaos might just start to tempt the normal marines to kill their chaplain leaders and take over into chaos worship.

Progena
25-09-2007, 16:55
I think the Black Templars have a rather large amount of Chaplains in their ranks. No Crusade goes anywhere without a couple of those, and there are lots of Crusades at any one time. But I guess you could argue that the BT is in fact just one giant chapter of Chaplains.

Witchfire
25-09-2007, 16:59
I think the Black Templars have a rather large amount of Chaplains in their ranks. No Crusade goes anywhere without a couple of those, and there are lots of Crusades at any one time. But I guess you could argue that the BT is in fact just one giant chapter of Chaplains.

but the black templars are pre-codex by just a bit and after gulliman hounding dorn it would have been pushing it to make an atack on the BT regime

ryng_sting
25-09-2007, 17:10
Remember that the post of Space Marine Chaplain was created by Malcador the Sigilite to guard for deviation and keep marines focused. If there's any heresy, like the Commissars in an IG army, it's likely they'll be its first victims.

Adra
25-09-2007, 18:33
I dont really understand the role of a Chaplain pre HH.

I mean the Imperial Truth would not allow the implication of faith so Chaplains wouldnt be running about preaching to anyone about the imoprtal emperor.

Like the Crozius is said to be a holy badge of office....well that notion would be laughed at pre HH.

CELS
25-09-2007, 19:27
The role of the Chaplain pre HH was to prevent the use of sorcery, such as the Thousand Sons were known to employ. According to some sources, they were also supposed to forbid the use of Librarians, but that seems unlikely IMO.

starlight
25-09-2007, 19:45
My Phoenix Templars hav been led by Chaplains since their inception over ten years ago (just post Heresy in 40K). Captains are solely responsible for martial training under the leadership of the Chaplains. Librarians (or psykers of any sort) don't exist within the Crusade Fleet.

Witchfire
25-09-2007, 20:07
My Phoenix Templars hav been led by Chaplains since their inception over ten years ago (just post Heresy in 40K). Captains are solely responsible for martial training under the leadership of the Chaplains. Librarians (or psykers of any sort) don't exist within the Crusade Fleet.

yes, but thats not offical fluff so counts for NOTHING

The_Outsider
25-09-2007, 20:10
Chaplains would either A) be one of the first to spread any seeds of heresy if they were corrupted or B) the first to be eliminated as a threat to the corruption spreading to the entire chapter.

devolutionary
25-09-2007, 20:16
yes, but thats not offical fluff so counts for NOTHING

Yes, but neither do your views, come to it. This was a discussion on how Chaplains could lead a chapter, and through his own chapter dynamics, starlight has shown a possible option. There are only a handful of official chapters, most of the first or second founding, or failing that bordering on heretical. While 99% or more of chapters are deemed Codex Chapters, they are not necessarily devout Codex Chapters and are prone to variation over the ages. As long as the basics are followed, nobody gives much of a damn.

stormblade
25-09-2007, 20:54
My Phoenix Templars hav been led by Chaplains since their inception over ten years ago (just post Heresy in 40K). Captains are solely responsible for martial training under the leadership of the Chaplains. Librarians (or psykers of any sort) don't exist within the Crusade Fleet.

- Then I take it that you don't crusade much since you don't have any BLOODY NAVIGATORS to navigate your crusade fleet.

starlight
25-09-2007, 21:09
*shakes head at the narrowmindedness of so many*:rolleyes:

Since you know.....let's see.....oh that's right....*nothing* about the history of the Phoenix Templars, you're in exactly *what* position to offer comments...?:eyebrows:

Splagbot
25-09-2007, 21:34
When you consider the amount of chapters out there (around 1000) it's not inconceivable that one of them may have diverged from the codex to such a degree that they could be led by Chaplains, if they're obsessed on the whole purity thing then certainly Chaplains would seem to make a lot of sense as leaders, personally I like it and if you're thinking of making your own chapter then I would go for it and if not late me know so I can rip the idea off.:p

starlight
25-09-2007, 21:41
Ironically enough, several years ago a fan compiled a list of all the known Chapters, both GW and DIY that he could find any mention or record of...

Well over 2000, and that was a few years back...:p

Shiakou
25-09-2007, 22:51
Ironically enough, several years ago a fan compiled a list of all the known Chapters, both GW and DIY that he could find any mention or record of...

Well over 2000, and that was a few years back...:p

Can I have the list or a link? Please.

Besides, it's practically proof that the Imperium couldn't keep down the number of Space Marine Chapters if they wanted. The "official" number, possibly the number kept by Imperial Accountants is 1,000 Chapters. . . but what they don't know . . .

starlight
25-09-2007, 23:13
I'll see if I can dig it up. :)

Tehkonrad
26-09-2007, 00:41
Blood_Red_Sandman is a very VERY cranky man (I mean HOLY DAMN the mans cranky)

LexxBomb
26-09-2007, 08:02
Remember that the post of Space Marine Chaplain was created by Malcador the Sigilite to guard for deviation and keep marines focused. If there's any heresy, like the Commissars in an IG army, it's likely they'll be its first victims.

and now that fluff has been superceeded by the new Horus Heresy Fluff.
Spoiler warning
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Horus decreed that every legion would adopt having chaplans to improve the warrior fighting spirit. the real reason was to create warrior lodges within the legions, thus influencing them to rebel against the Emperor like the Luna Wolves did.-------------------------------------------------------------------------

starlight
26-09-2007, 08:17
Can I have the list or a link? Please.

Besides, it's practically proof that the Imperium couldn't keep down the number of Space Marine Chapters if they wanted. The "official" number, possibly the number kept by Imperial Accountants is 1,000 Chapters. . . but what they don't know . . .

This will do for now, but the one I was thinking of was far more complete than this, including all the ones listed at the top as *not* present here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Space_Marine_Chapters

Shiakou
26-09-2007, 08:29
Yeah, I went through that list. It's not very comprehensive, but it did give me some ideas.

stormblade
26-09-2007, 09:15
*shakes head at the narrowmindedness of so many*:rolleyes:

Since you know.....let's see.....oh that's right....*nothing* about the history of the Phoenix Templars, you're in exactly *what* position to offer comments...?:eyebrows:


Wrong, I know 'something' and that is that they've got no psykers at all and no psykers at all means no navigators at all and that means that your crusade fleet would be mighty slow which would make it quite ineffective.

And if you're done with your daft sarcasm you might care to explain how does your fleet manage to travel without navigators.

Witchfire
26-09-2007, 11:20
Wrong, I know 'something' and that is that they've got no psykers at all and no psykers at all means no navigators at all and that means that your crusade fleet would be mighty slow which would make it quite ineffective.

And if you're done with your daft sarcasm you might care to explain how does your fleet manage to travel without navigators.

you got told

Iracundus
26-09-2007, 12:04
I actually didn't like some of the stories in the new Chaos Codex as it seemed to show a rather poor justification for why Marines would suddenly go from defenders to ravagers or rampagers or why the other Marine Chapters joined to support the Astral Claws' rebellion.

It is not entirely impossible for a Chapter that reveres its Chaplains to go renegade. Note I say renegade, not necessarily Chaos worshippers. All it would take for example would be for its beliefs to mutate or change gradually over many generations. Extreme zealousness can also be a path towards going renegade if the Chapter begins to see itself as purer and more worthy than the rest of the Imperium, and goes to promote its own ends (for the supposed good of the Imperium). They could refuse Imperial requests for aid ("to better conserve their numbers for more serious threats"), conquer worlds ("to govern them more efficiently for their own good and the Imperium's"), or attack other Imperial organizations ("to prevent them interfering in the affairs of their betters"). This may even be done entirely sincerely but the Imperium wouldn't take the same view.

LexxBomb
26-09-2007, 12:47
Wrong, I know 'something' and that is that they've got no psykers at all and no psykers at all means no navigators at all and that means that your crusade fleet would be mighty slow which would make it quite ineffective.

And if you're done with your daft sarcasm you might care to explain how does your fleet manage to travel without navigators.

he could have a high level psycher such as an alpha level one looking through the third eye of a navigator
(see inquisitor war series for info on the third eye being used as a lens)

starlight
26-09-2007, 16:39
*shakes head at the narrowmindedness of so many*:rolleyes:

Since you know.....let's see.....oh that's right....*nothing* about the history of the Phoenix Templars, you're in exactly *what* position to offer comments...?:eyebrows:


Wrong, I know 'something' and that is that they've got no psykers at all and no psykers at all means no navigators at all and that means that your crusade fleet would be mighty slow which would make it quite ineffective.

And if you're done with your daft sarcasm you might care to explain how does your fleet manage to travel without navigators.

Actually, you don't. You know a snippet of the present (that they lack psykers), but none of the *history* (why they lack psykers), which is what I was specifically refering to. Collectively it was felt that a per se *silent* approach in their return to the Imperium, although taking much longer is preferable to announcing it with the fanfare of travelling through the Warp, the additional time is being used to rebuild their fighting capability. Since they feel that Psykers are a huge part of the cause of the Heresy, the Chaplains weed out all potentials. Effectiveness is measured in one way - are you attaining your goals? Their only goal is to return to the Imperium, they are doing so, thus they are effective.

My response was neither daft, nor sarcastic. It *was* an observation that you are attempting to make determinations about a subject you have little to no knowledge of based your personal biases. A few simple questions, rather than rash statements would go much farther in creating the sense of community we strive to maintain around here.


ooh, burn!!

Perhaps you might want to look it up, but in order to be *burned* he'd have had to have disputed some sort of fact. He either misread or misunderstood my Post and simply disagrees.

I'll suggest that you attempt to contribute in a more positive manner in the future. The topic under discussion is Chaplains leading Chapters, under what circumstances that may happen, and what it would mean to the Chapter.


he could have a high level psycher such as an alpha level one looking through the third eye of a navigator
(see inquisitor war series for info on the third eye being used as a lens)

While that might be possible, there are *no* psykers in the fleet. At all. Indeed they are travelling slowly compared to Warp travel, yet they do so without the attendant risks inherent in exposing themselves to the Immaterium. A cautious and deliberate nature that possibly comes from their Salamander ancestors. Of course with the Chaplains in charge, they may take it a bit far sometimes...

stormblade
26-09-2007, 17:17
My response was neither daft, nor sarcastic. It *was* an observation that you are attempting to make determinations about a subject you have little to no knowledge of based your personal biases. A few simple questions, rather than rash statements would go much farther in creating the sense of community we strive to maintain around here.


- Actually it was because my statement was that your fleet would have trouble with moving around the galaxy and you said something like "you don't know the history of my fan-made chapter so STFU noob"

I point you to their inability to travel around at their present time and you answer my question with "you don't know their history".
- That would be like me saying that your hair is short and you starting to scream that I don't know the history of your hair-cutting so I shouldn't comment it.

And using rethoric questions to which you answer yourself and then end it all with an imperative is sarcasm.

Although admittedly I shouldn't have YELLED but just ask, but then again that's somewhat boring.;)

Witchfire
26-09-2007, 17:51
Actually, you don't. You know a snippet of the present (that they lack psykers), but none of the *history* (why they lack psykers), which is what I was specifically refering to. Collectively it was felt that a per se *silent* approach in their return to the Imperium, although taking much longer is preferable to announcing it with the fanfare of travelling through the Warp, the additional time is being used to rebuild their fighting capability. Since they feel that Psykers are a huge part of the cause of the Heresy, the Chaplains weed out all potentials. Effectiveness is measured in one way - are you attaining your goals? Their only goal is to return to the Imperium, they are doing so, thus they are effective.

My response was neither daft, nor sarcastic. It *was* an observation that you are attempting to make determinations about a subject you have little to no knowledge of based your personal biases. A few simple questions, rather than rash statements would go much farther in creating the sense of community we strive to maintain around here.



Perhaps you might want to look it up, but in order to be *burned* he'd have had to have disputed some sort of fact. He either misread or misunderstood my Post and simply disagrees.

I'll suggest that you attempt to contribute in a more positive manner in the future. The topic under discussion is Chaplains leading Chapters, under what circumstances that may happen, and what it would mean to the Chapter.



While that might be possible, there are *no* psykers in the fleet. At all. Indeed they are travelling slowly compared to Warp travel, yet they do so without the attendant risks inherent in exposing themselves to the Immaterium. A cautious and deliberate nature that possibly comes from their Salamander ancestors. Of course with the Chaplains in charge, they may take it a bit far sometimes...

i'm gonna lurk and wait till i have something sarcastic yet constructive to say ( stop laughing it could happen! ).

and for the topic of ''ooh-burn'',

i apologize wholeheartedly for misunderstanding the intricate meanings of your cyber speak or whatever, where i'm from ''burning'' can mean several things, most common being the short equivalent of- ''you got told''.

anyways, i'm not here to argue, just got a bit annoyed by this thread and got into a fight over the political and religious lives of a ficticious race of super enhanced sci-fi soldier monks

VanHel
26-09-2007, 17:56
I could see the Chaplanary of a chapter seeing corruption and heresy forming in the Captains, Chapter Master and doing a sort of coup to stop it.

Pooky
27-09-2007, 12:10
I could see the Chaplanary of a chapter seeing corruption and heresy forming in the Captains, Chapter Master and doing a sort of coup to stop it.

That brings up an interesting point. If the SM Master was seen to be a little "unsteady" by the Chaplain, would the Chaplain then suggest a reflective "time out"? Or would he just assume control over the chapter? Would a Chaplain have the power to renounce a Master if it came to that? :eek: Emperor forbid it ever be like that!

LexxBomb
27-09-2007, 18:50
i dont think a chaplan would be able to take control as large scale command isn't part of their responsibility- they are not like commisars who seem to have more power in the command structure of their respective forces.

Pooky
27-09-2007, 21:34
i dont think a chaplan would be able to take control as large scale command isn't part of their responsibility- they are not like commisars who seem to have more power in the command structure of their respective forces.

But surely it would be better than having someone who has turned to Choas at the help of an entire marine chapter??!!

VanHel
27-09-2007, 22:34
As I said, it makes sense to me that a Chaplain or group of them may take over and depose of/kill a Chapter Master if he's been consorting with Xenos/Chaos/Whatever the chapter says is completely wrong and evil. I could see them acting as stewards till they got someone else screened and trained to take over.

LexxBomb
28-09-2007, 04:43
well the chaplans might exercute the chapter master but the captain of the 1st company would probably take over as te new chapter master wouldnt he

Witchfire
28-09-2007, 07:12
or the chapter master might corrupt his retinue and gang up and kill all the chaplains together so there are no chaplains to preach against him

destroyerlord
28-09-2007, 08:44
anyways, i'm not here to argue, just got a bit annoyed by this thread and got into a fight over the political and religious lives of a ficticious race of super enhanced sci-fi soldier monks

Haha it would seem that political and religious discussion is impossible on this sort of forum...even when its about a fictional universe's political ideas. It seems people take those fictional ideas as their own for the purposes of this sort of discussion. Its like WH40k religious roleplay!

Shiakou
28-09-2007, 09:20
Haha it would seem that political and religious discussion is impossible on this sort of forum...even when its about a fictional universe's political ideas. It seems people take those fictional ideas as their own for the purposes of this sort of discussion. Its like WH40k religious roleplay!

Roleplay? Roleplay? Do you mean to say that you have been pretending to praise the God-Emperor? That you do not have faith in His power and knowledge? That you do not truly worship him as the Messiah? That you do not believe in his unparalleled strenght, unmatched wisdom, and unequaled phallic magnitude?

How dare you, heretic?! You will be punished, punished in a way most foul, painful, demeaning and oddly arousing once I find the Inquisition's number in the local yellow pages.

destroyerlord
01-10-2007, 10:46
and unequaled phallic magnitude?

I'm sure that is probably another reason that people get so defensive about their arguments :p *Joke!*

Sorry....

DantesInferno
01-10-2007, 11:06
As I said, it makes sense to me that a Chaplain or group of them may take over and depose of/kill a Chapter Master if he's been consorting with Xenos/Chaos/Whatever the chapter says is completely wrong and evil. I could see them acting as stewards till they got someone else screened and trained to take over.

Reminds me of the bit from the 3rd Star Wars movie (Revenge of the Sith) when Mace Windu and a group of Jedi arrive to depose/kill Chancellor Palpatine...

Master of Sanctity: In the name of the God-Emperor of Mankind, you are under arrest, Chapter Master.
Master of Sanctity and the other Chaplains activate their Crozii.
Chapter Master: Are you threatening me, Master Chaplain?
Master of Sanctity: The Chapter will decide your fate.
Chapter Master: (burst of anger) I am the Chapter!
Master of Sanctity: Not yet!
Chapter Master stands, draws a power sword, and turns toward the Chaplains.
Chapter Master: It's treason, then.

Nargus
01-10-2007, 11:50
Hehehehe, very good!

It would seem "right" that a Chaplain would have the authority to destroy a corrupt Chapter Master, but there are a few points worth mentioning.

A Chaplains official duties are promoting faith in the Emperor - not specifically rooting out Chaos, but preventing it.

Hunting and destroying Chaos out falls to The Inquisition, specifically Grey Knights, not Chaplains per se.

If the Master of the Chapter has turned, so will most of the other Marines - bumping him off is likely to be the least of the Chaplains worries...

A Librarian is more likely to be able to detect and defeat a Chaos entity, should it come down to it.

LexxBomb
04-10-2007, 05:54
Hehehehe, very good!

It would seem "right" that a Chaplain would have the authority to destroy a corrupt Chapter Master, but there are a few points worth mentioning.

A Chaplains official duties are promoting faith in the Emperor - not specifically rooting out Chaos, but preventing it.

Hunting and destroying Chaos out falls to The Inquisition, specifically Grey Knights, not Chaplains per se.

If the Master of the Chapter has turned, so will most of the other Marines - bumping him off is likely to be the least of the Chaplains worries...

A Librarian is more likely to be able to detect and defeat a Chaos entity, should it come down to it.

you do realise the original purpose of chaplins (in horus's eye) was to corrupt the other legions thus making them turn against the Emperor and follow him

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-10-2007, 11:24
Roleplay? Roleplay? Do you mean to say that you have been pretending to praise the God-Emperor? That you do not have faith in His power and knowledge? That you do not truly worship him as the Messiah? That you do not believe in his unparalleled strenght, unmatched wisdom, and unequaled phallic magnitude?

How dare you, heretic?! You will be punished, punished in a way most foul, painful, demeaning and oddly arousing once I find the Inquisition's number in the local yellow pages.

That last bit is so close to being sigged. If I didn't like Eldar-bashing so much...

Nargus
05-10-2007, 10:48
you do realise the original purpose of chaplins (in horus's eye) was to corrupt the other legions thus making them turn against the Emperor and follow him

We weren't talking about Horus. We were talking about Chaplains bumping off Chapter Masters if they became Corrupted...