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Cromenon
25-09-2007, 15:01
A friend of mine was asking me if he could "negate" a small unit or independent character with his furies making a complete circle around that unit so that it could not escape from the skirimishers.

Leaving a maximum gap between his models of 1", any unit could escape from that trap since you cannot be less than 1" from an enemy unit...

I don't see it very clear, so if you could help me...

I think it's better if I draw it...

DeathlessDraich
25-09-2007, 15:25
Not sure what the question is.
:D
Is it possible? Yes
Is it legal? Yes
Can the character move within the circle? Yes and it can charge the skirmishers if any model is within range.

gukal
25-09-2007, 15:25
I don't see how it would be helpful.

If the furies are a match for the unit, then just charge and win.

If the furies are too weak to simply charge and kill this unit ... then the "trapped unit" will charge and defeat the furies on its own turn.

That said, if for some kooky reason neither side wants to start a fight, then the trapped unit would not be able to just move away.

- Gukal

Crube
25-09-2007, 15:34
I would say, why not charge it if you think you stand a chance... I suppose it could tie up a unit for a turn, but then so would landing in front of it really....

No reason why you cant do it though...

Cromenon
25-09-2007, 15:45
I understand. The problem is that the trapped unit may be a banshee, and with the magical attack of the furies and their psichology immunity it will not be able to win that combat. The only chance for it to survive is to escape from that circle...

Thank you all!

metro_gnome
25-09-2007, 16:23
right... but the furies are still better off charging the banshee... they will win...

EvC
25-09-2007, 16:29
In that case, perhaps there is a reason someone would like to do this? Perhaps the Furies cannot see the Banshee that turn, but would like to stop her from getting away.

In fact at a recent tournament an opponent wanted to do exactly this to my Banshee and I was kind of surprised when he didn't. I thought it would have been a great tactic to use to stop her from killing anything in my own turn!

theunwantedbeing
25-09-2007, 18:26
Thats a nice diagram.

The rules do state that the skirmishing unit moves in a group or a rough line.
I dont really think a circle fits either of those 2 possible formations.

Your also not alowed to end your movement on an enemy unit,which is what the circle formation appears to do.

Although assuming its legal it does have its uses...like pinning that annoying banshee in place for a turn lol.....although those furies wont last long with her yelling at them.

EvC
25-09-2007, 18:51
Skirmishers can move as they like, they don't all have to move in exactly the same way. And sadly the Furies won't give a damn about the scream, as they're immune to psychology!

Festus
25-09-2007, 18:51
It is legal, and the Banshee will do pants against the Furies. As they are ItP, the Banshee may yell until she is sore in her (non-existant) throat :D

Festus

Atrahasis
25-09-2007, 19:17
The rules do state that the skirmishing unit moves in a group or a rough line.
I dont really think a circle fits either of those 2 possible formations.A circle is just a curved line, and so fits the latter of the 2 descriptions.

DeathlessDraich
25-09-2007, 20:40
That said, if for some kooky reason neither side wants to start a fight, then the trapped unit would not be able to just move away.
- Gukal

I've been trying to think of a situation where this might occur.
What about this situation:

1) A unit of Wardancers have moved into a building, hoping to emerge from a side where they will be sheltered.

2) A unit of Skinks/Night Runners surrounds the building as shown. Shooting incurs a -3 penalty and is ineffective and no longer poisonous. A building assault would be suicidal.

3) The Wardancers cannot charge out of the building and would be wasted if they stay in. They are forced to emerge or be trapped.

4) When the Wardancers emerge, the skinks enter the building and shoot!

Yellow Commissar
26-09-2007, 01:47
I disagree. A skirmishing unit "must form a loose group or line with models no more than 1" apart." (pg 65 BRB)

A circle is neither a loose group or a line in my opinion. I'm not buying that a circle is just a curved line. A circle is a circle. A curved line is a curved line.

I would not be inclined to allow this manuevre in a game other than to avoid an argument.

notlogic
26-09-2007, 02:12
Then think of it as being in the shape of a letter "C" with less than an inch between each end of the C. I seriously doubt anybody would say that you can't form your skirmishers in a curved line... this situation would, then, bring into question just how curved of a line is legal? Given that I doubt GW wants to have any geometry or trig problems in the play of the game, I'm guessing that formation would remain legal.

Yellow Commissar
26-09-2007, 02:22
It might. Sounds iffy to me. The rules say group or line. I don't see semi-circle or circle in there anywhere. Obviously a group can be circular, but having an enemy model in the middle of a formation makes it not a group in my mind.

Take it easy. :)

Urgat
26-09-2007, 11:07
For me, the "footprint" of a unit covers all the surface between all the minis of said unit. And in this case, the footprint of the furies overlap the banshee. AFAIK you are not allowed to stop on another unit, so this is not legal in my books. Funny idea, but I would object I believe.

edit: Theunwantedbeing pointed this out first too, in fact.

DeathlessDraich
26-09-2007, 12:06
1) The only 'rigid formation' in Warhammer is the ranked up rectangular formation.
Skirmishers are in a 'loose group' , whose shape is not specified but can be gleaned from the diagrams on pgs 65, 66 and the FAQs to be *any* arrangement with the only proviso of models being not more than 1" apart.

2) Each skirmishing model moves independently up to its movement allowance. From Diag 66.3, it is possible for a skirmishing unit to end up in a circle or roughly circular arrangement.

3) Even if you forbid a circular formation, the situation above could easily arise as placing models approximating a circle is quite easy and is not a circle! - I doubt anyone can place their models in a perfect circle.

Urgat:
a) It is true that the 'effective skirmisher model' space (or footprint as you call it) for a skirmishing model occupies more than merely it's base size for the purposes of LOS. - Diag 65.1

b) It is also true that this e-sm space cannot be occupied by an enemy model - the 1" rule.

c) However this 'esm' space is limited only to the bases of individual models and the 1" space *between* them. In the case above, it does not extend towards the centre of the circle but merely around the circumference.

d) In addition, since friendly models in different units can legally touch each other, it is also possible for a single model to be placed between two skirmishing models less than 1" apart.

EvC
26-09-2007, 12:18
At the end of the day the "footprint" is an induced, perceived rule rather than one supported by the rules. And personally when such a situation comes up I ask myself if it is reasonable and fun. Furies surrounding a Banshee is both reasonable and a fun tactic, so I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with it...

Urgat
26-09-2007, 13:37
Yeah, I guess you're right. Should the unlikely event of this case occuring in one of my games, I'll remember about this topic.

Yellow Commissar
28-09-2007, 02:00
At the end of the day the "footprint" is an induced, perceived rule rather than one supported by the rules. And personally when such a situation comes up I ask myself if it is reasonable and fun. Furies surrounding a Banshee is both reasonable and a fun tactic, so I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with it...


I'm not saying I would spoil a fun game by being stubborn about this, but...
Turning my Dragon to the side and charging a single mansized model 1" to my flank is both a reasonable and fun tactic too. :eek:

Take it easy. ;)

EvC
28-09-2007, 11:54
My cat's breath smells like cat food.

Atrahasis
28-09-2007, 18:30
I'm not saying I would spoil a fun game by being stubborn about this, but...
Turning my Dragon to the side and charging a single mansized model 1" to my flank is both a reasonable and fun tactic too. :eek:

Take it easy. ;)That's a completely different kettle of fish (and I'm sure you know it).

A curve is a line and a line is a curve; a curve that is almost a complete circle is still a curve and therefore still a line.

Turning your dragon before charging is explicitly against the rules.