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RedStompa
26-09-2007, 01:33
assuming it came down to just the Imperium and the eldar, with all other races diminished, or for whatever reason ignoring the Imperium and eldar, what would they do?

From what i have heard and read, both sides just leave well enough alone and focus on more important matters around the galaxy...

has this always been the case? in some instances it seems that the Eldar are actually trying to HELP the Imperium... even though they regard them as animals... I haven't read/heard of many outright attacks against the eldar from the Imperium either... are they in some sort of uneasy truce?

Shiakou
26-09-2007, 01:50
If the Eldar were the only ones left, sooner or later some anti-xeno fanatic in the Imperium would declare a crusade against them. With no other enemies and a universal contempt of xenos, even the cooler heads in the Imperium might not be enough to save the Eldar from total destruction. Eldar sympathizers would most likely be tried as traitors or heretics. The Craftworlds basically ignore each other too. . .

On a semi-related note, if an Avatar is destroyed, is it gone forever, or is it possible to resurrect it later with another sacrifice?

Ktotwf
26-09-2007, 01:52
Well, the Imperium would destroy the Eldar where they found them. Otherwise, it would be damn near impossible for them to find the Craftworlds etc.

The Emperor's Faithfull
26-09-2007, 03:06
Eldar dont neccessarily help the Imperium...they help the galaxy/universe. The Imperium just happens to be the major opponent to Chaos. There have been times where Eldar and IG/SM have teamed up to fight a common enemy.

carlisimo
26-09-2007, 03:37
Yeah, the Eldar use the Imperium quite often. They also figure it's better that one of the dominant powers is someone they can reason with (to a point) and an ally against Chaos. Of course, the Tau could emerge as a closer "friend" eventually.

Same goes for the Imperium. They know the Eldar aren't going to fight them over all the planets mankind has settled. That alone makes them better enemies to have than just about everybody else. The Black Library is probably what brings them closest together though.

If the forces of Chaos weren't a factor, I'm sure there would be crusades against the Eldar. But that's not gonna happen, unless the Necrons seal off the Immaterium, which means the Imperium crumbles and then everbody's screwed.

chromedog
26-09-2007, 03:38
To answer the other question on avatars.
When destroyed, the 'fragments' find their way back to the home craftworld. Since it is only a fragment of a god, and it is kept from being destroyed utterly by the belief of the people, you'd have to wipe ALL of them out to keep the big guy from manifesting again (since it does require a conscious effort from the populace of the craftworld and a willing sacrifice)

Chilltouch
26-09-2007, 06:03
The Eldar don't help the Imperium.
The Eldar don't help the galaxy.
They help themselves.

They appear enigmatic when they attack you at one moment, and then form an uneasy alliance with you. They manipulate as they see fit. If the Imperium will be a host to an Eldar killing monstrosity, they will try to destroy the section of the Imperium that will be a host to said monstrosity before it's born. If the Imperium is fighting something that will be host to an Eldar killing monstrosity, they will kill it. If the Imperium is fighting with another race over some ancient Eldar artefacts without knowing what they are, the Eldar will probably 'help' the race most likely to tolerate their presence before teleporting off with the artefact. They'd sacrifice an entire hiveworld just to see ten Guardians survive.

Ktotwf
26-09-2007, 06:08
The Eldar hate the Mon'keigh because of their familiarity (familiarity breeds contempt), and their pretensions to galactic domination.

All the same, the Eldar would rather see Men rule the galaxy than Chaos, the Necrontyr, or the Great Devourer.

Griefbringer
26-09-2007, 06:44
Remember that the eldar are not a single political entity. Rather, each of the craftworlds is a sovereign entity and can have its own policy.

And the Imperium is not adverse to attacking the xenos scum that eldar are if there is something to be gained; attacking the craftworlds themselves is difficult and of little direct benefit, but if Imperium spots a nice new world for mankind to colonise, they will not really care if they will need to wipe out a few eldar colonies out first.

Shiakou
26-09-2007, 06:45
The Eldar don't help the Imperium.
The Eldar don't help the galaxy.
They help themselves.

They appear enigmatic when they attack you at one moment, and then form an uneasy alliance with you. They manipulate as they see fit. If the Imperium will be a host to an Eldar killing monstrosity, they will try to destroy the section of the Imperium that will be a host to said monstrosity before it's born. If the Imperium is fighting something that will be host to an Eldar killing monstrosity, they will kill it. If the Imperium is fighting with another race over some ancient Eldar artefacts without knowing what they are, the Eldar will probably 'help' the race most likely to tolerate their presence before teleporting off with the artefact. They'd sacrifice an entire hiveworld just to see ten Guardians survive.

The more I read about it, the more I realize that Eldar and Humans have more in common than either side is willing to admit.

Rockerfella
26-09-2007, 09:57
And the Imperium is not adverse to attacking the xenos scum that eldar are if there is something to be gained; attacking the craftworlds themselves is difficult and of little direct benefit, but if Imperium spots a nice new world for mankind to colonise, they will not really care if they will need to wipe out a few eldar colonies out first.

Do remember though, that 'wiping out a few Eldar colonies' will likely instigate the wrath of a craftworld. People often underestimate the martial power and military projection capabilities of an ENTIRE craftworld. When one of these babies decides to go full on, it would take half the imperial fleet to knock one out. God help you if you 'wipe out' a few Biel Tan Colonies. The SwordWind will hammer you faster than you can say 'Nickablockaglory'.

Its just not as simple as the above seems to suggest. If you step on a Maiden World, then.. your bad. Its not yours. If you step on an Eldar colony thats previously occupied an imperial world, fairs fair, do what ya gotta do.

Just be prepared for the eventual backlash. ;)

RedStompa
26-09-2007, 15:10
What exactly is a 'maiden world'?

I doubt the Eldar are that self centered, and uncaring about wha happens elseware... they would set them up to somethin similar to another fall?

I also think the galaxy would be a much nastier place if the eldar weer left alone to face chaos/necrons/nids.

WHat would the reasons be for taking a previousy held imperial colony?

assuming there were just coliniss there, would the eldar simply slaughter them all? or would they move them... or would it depend on the farseer and cratworld...

fengor
26-09-2007, 15:26
It depends on what the farseer would see. If there are no reasons for keeping them alive i'd guess nothing would go against slaughtering. They are just animals after all ;p

Sometimes though eldar will even devend humans against the attacks of other eldar when they have further use for some of them, even if that is years from now.

Rockerfella
26-09-2007, 15:41
What exactly is a 'maiden world'?

A Maiden world is one that the pre fall Eldar seeded, and thus intended to colonise and live upon. When an imperial fleet finds a world such as this, and finds it without need of terraforming or any other such meddling, they often immediately colonise it. These worlds are after all pre prepared paradises that would (part from the fall) have been bustling living Eldar planets of some beauty.

So, when the imperium colonises such a world, some Eldar craftworlds become aggressive and wipe out said colonies, because they believe the planet to be rightfully theirs.

Some colonists are moved and relocated by the Eldar.



;)

stormblade
26-09-2007, 17:29
Its just not as simple as the above seems to suggest. If you step on a Maiden World, then.. your bad. Its not yours. If you step on an Eldar colony thats previously occupied an imperial world, fairs fair, do what ya gotta do.

Just be prepared for the eventual backlash. ;)

Yes but most Eldar are smart enough not to mess with the Imperium most of the time and just leave the monkeys to their apish designs- Biel-tan, however, isn't one of them.

But Eldar so risk a lot because there is always a chance that they will get on the Ordo Xenos 'to purge' list if they behave too naughty- I read somewhere that inquisitors sometimes assemble a whole Deathwatch Kill-teams just to hunt down a specific Eldar that had wronged the Imperium.

Noserenda
26-09-2007, 18:02
The Eldar don't help the Imperium.
The Eldar don't help the galaxy.
They help themselves.

They appear enigmatic when they attack you at one moment, and then form an uneasy alliance with you. They manipulate as they see fit. If the Imperium will be a host to an Eldar killing monstrosity, they will try to destroy the section of the Imperium that will be a host to said monstrosity before it's born. If the Imperium is fighting something that will be host to an Eldar killing monstrosity, they will kill it. If the Imperium is fighting with another race over some ancient Eldar artefacts without knowing what they are, the Eldar will probably 'help' the race most likely to tolerate their presence before teleporting off with the artefact. They'd sacrifice an entire hiveworld just to see ten Guardians survive.

Right on the money, the Eldar are out for themselves, and generally sensible enough to duck and squirm around the other races to keep most major threats for striking them. Thats why most craftworlds survive, not because of their military might (Which to me at least is going to struggle against any Major attack/invasion force of another race) but because their leaders can see into the future and do the whole Fractal Butterfly thing :evilgrin:

But back to the OPs point, id imagine the Imperium would eventually crush the Eldar, barring the seers sparking a rebellion of Horus Heresy like proportions amongst the humans, which is fairly improbable...

Idaan
26-09-2007, 20:10
So as to the might of arms Imperium requires to destroy a Craftworld:

Current policy amongst Imperial commanders towards the Biel-tan craftworld is unclear. Despite repeated petitions to hunt down and destroy Biel-tan, there is neither the military might nor the political will to do this.
You can interpret it as: "there are now more urgent tasks, but once we're done with them, there will be a crusade against Biel-Tan" or as "The Eldar are too powerful for us to mess with them". But with an empire so decentralised as the Imperium and threat so elusive and shifting as the Eldar, it's really hard to give values.

Another thing to point out is that of all major (present in game) factions only the Eldar and the Imperium can really be called Order (to use EoT terminology) - all others are Disorder, as they seem to be interested in shifting balance of power. Only Eldar and Imperium try to maintain status quo on medium scale. Yes they may attack each other on occasion, and both believe in final victory, Rhana Dandra or Wolftime, but most of the time they defend.
Imperium tries to hold ground while the Eldar try to hold Imperium as a meatshield. So they're as close to having a convergent objective as you can get in grim grimmy darkness of far future.

carlisimo
26-09-2007, 20:42
Good way of seeing it, Idaan.

I don't believe all craftworlds are aggressive against colonies on Maiden Worlds. Biel Tan is probably the most, especially if Orks are involved. Other instances of Eldar wiping out colonies usually involve ancient relics or webway portals that the humans are getting too close to. Or anything that could threaten Exodite worlds.

Rockerfella
26-09-2007, 20:43
Right on the money, the Eldar are out for themselves, and generally sensible enough to duck and squirm around the other races to keep most major threats for striking them. Indeed. Thats because they're clever, not because they can't look after themselves. To me at least.


Thats why most craftworlds survive, not because of their military might (Which to me at least is going to struggle against any Major attack/invasion force of another race) To an extent I agree, but mostly... I don't. For me, the Craftworlds do survive as a result of their diversionary tactics and wonderous use of stealth and misdirection. However, when push comes to shove, the Craftworld will turn and bite your leg clean off if you push it too hard. For me, the perfect example of this is Hive fleet Kraken. The Craftworld managed to destroy a tyranid hive fleet pretty much on its own (I know this is a contentious issue) proving, to some degree at least, what a cornered Craftworld is really capable of. Imagine the manpower, rescourses, time and political will it would take for another race to 'destroy' a craftworld? Who's got the balls and the power to do it really? The imperium may have the power, but they don't have the political balls for it. It would take 300 years for a decision to be made, by which time the Craftworld has gotten wind of the 'grand plan' and either shuffled off or taken preventative action. The Tau? Sorry.. they don't have the power OR the impetus to take on a craftworld. The Orks, well.. only if enough of them ran into a craftworld. Again, its not going to happen. Tyranids.. been there, they got squashed. Sure, at a great price. ;) Erm... Necrons? Interesting that one. I'm guessing round two is coming up pretty soon!

Thats just my two penneth anyways! :)


but because their leaders can see into the future and do the whole Fractal Butterfly thing :evilgrin:

Oh yes. :p

stormblade
26-09-2007, 21:00
The Imperium did destroy a whole hive fleet- remember the smurfs and Macaragge.

Ktotwf
26-09-2007, 21:02
Essentially

Power of the Imperium >>>>> Power of the Eldar

Power of Craftworld >>> Power the Imperium could concentrate in one specific area to attack the Craftworld.

The power of a Craftworld is rather awesome, having stopped huge Tyranid Hive Fleets and such.

It is really a waste for the Imperium to attack the Eldar anway, they have the whole "Enemy of my enemy is still my enemy but not quite so much" thing going on, and the Eldar are headed for extinction in the long run anyway.

The damage that the Eldar could really cause the Imperium is really trivial combined to their shared enemies.

Rockerfella
26-09-2007, 21:14
Essentially

Power of the Imperium >>>>> Power of the Eldar Sure. In terms of raw military power I agree. As for who would win a full on, every Craftworld, exodite world, Harlequin and Dark Eldar vs Imperium war type thing, well... i'll reserve judgement. ;)


Power of Craftworld >>> Power the Imperium could concentrate in one specific area to attack the Craftworld.

Although, as has been previously stated, hypothetically this could be achieved i'm sure.


The power of a Craftworld is rather awesome, having stopped huge Tyranid Hive Fleets and such. Agreed!


It is really a waste for the Imperium to attack the Eldar anway, they have the whole "Enemy of my enemy is still my enemy but not quite so much" thing going on, and the Eldar are headed for extinction in the long run anyway.

Yeah, it is a waste of time. Thats why its just best to leave the Eldar be and let them get on with it. There's just some things you don't do. YOu don't stand on supermans cape, you don't step on Elvis' blue suede shoes, and you don't settle on a Maiden world unless you really really want trouble.


The damage that the Eldar could really cause the Imperium is really trivial combined to their shared enemies.

Well, probably not. Horus did once famously say that he thought if anyone could bring down the Imperium, it would be the Eldar. I'm pretty sure that the knowledge contained within the Library and the devine cunning of Cegorach, combined with the martial might of the Craftworlds could cause a little more trouble than the 'trivial' damage you suggest, should the above factions really, really feel the need to go ape.

As you said earlier though with regards to the political will, the same applies to the Eldar. Its simply not in the interests of the Eldar to partake in an offensive such as the above. It just wouldn't make sense. To me at least!

Luthien
26-09-2007, 21:27
Once again i find myself agreeing with that traitorous scumbag Horus, the eldar could well bring down the imperium. The Index Xenos article about biel-tan states that victories against them are painfully few, and the cost is always great. And in an empire that stretches across a million planets and that has the biggest and most inefficient beurocratic system is it not a notable thing that the imperium even notices it keeps losing to the Swordwind

Noserenda
26-09-2007, 21:59
But thats my point really, the Swordwind usually wins because their seers are guiding their war leaders into probable victories. No sector could ever gather enough might to smash a craftworld because (cooincidentaly) theres a Ork raider band over here and a rebellion oh and our best general had an accident with a pruning knife...

The way I see it, the Eldar military in sheer power is almost pitiful... BUT it has a command and intelligence which means its few numbers inflict disproportionate damage upon its enemies and in its interests.

As for Iyanden, a splinter of Kraken almost destroyed the Craftworld simply because there was nothing the Eldar could do to slow or co-opt the Tyranids. Because of this Iyanden is now a hollow floating tomb half crewed by the dead while Macragge which faced a similar foe (The smaller, but entire Hive fleet Behemoth) is largely operable, theres also redundancy, the Imperials can sacrifice worlds to buy time, even important ones like Gryphonne, but the Eldar can hardly sacrifice a craftworld...

RedStompa
26-09-2007, 22:29
Exodite worlds.

ok, I'm gonna have to ask. Also, would they want to protect them?

I heard of an eldar craftworld wandering around in the EoT, as well as one or two eldar planets?

how can they exist there since their souls are the tastiest of them all to daemons?

if the Eldar spared a colony, or moved them, how would they 'use' them at a later time? meatshields? or because they have a greater purpose...

Brother Thuemoose
26-09-2007, 23:32
ok, I'm gonna have to ask. Also, would they want to protect them?

I heard of an eldar craftworld wandering around in the EoT, as well as one or two eldar planets?

how can they exist there since their souls are the tastiest of them all to daemons?

Before The Fall (and the creation of Slaanesh), some of the Eldar foresaw the disaster. They warned their brethren to stop their perverted ways (the Dark Eldar are what all Eldar used to be like). Only some took their warning seriously. Those who did moved to worlds far from the center of the Eldar's territory (which would become the Eye of Terror). Once on their new planets, they took up a simple life, so that they would be less likely to stumble into the fate of their fellow Eldar (the Craftworlds were also built at this time, for similar reasons).

As for why they are protected, Biel-tan is trying to recreate the eldar empire, and sees these worlds as the foundation for that empire.

There are worlds in the Eye that do have Eldar on them, but they are enlsaved to Slaanesh and cannot leave these "Crone Worlds".

And there was a craftworld trapped in the Eye (Altansar), but it has since escaped, and it participated in the 13th Black Crusade against Chaos. Ulthwe is also near the Eye, but is not in it.

carlisimo
26-09-2007, 23:52
The Exodite story dates back to before the Fall of the Eldar. As their society plummeted into anarchy, some puritan-like Eldar (the Exodites) decided they were better off leaving. The got onto spaceships, flew to the far end of the galaxy (Eastern Fringe) and colonized a number of planets. They live as a hunter-gatherer society, denying themselves the use of wraithbone and actually having to do physical work to survive (they do have their technology, they just minimize their use of it). They're not likely to advance in any way, but some of the Craftworld Eldar acknowledge that they're the most likely to survive in the long term. The two groups don't interact much (big cultural gap) but they help each other out in matters of survival.

The craftworld in the Eye of Terror is Althansar. Until the EoT campaign fluff was written, it was known as a craftworld that hadn't gotten far away enough when Slaanesh was born, and over time it was overwhelmed by the Eye of Terror and was lost inside. Only Maugan Ra escaped. Well, turns out it's still intact and its inhabitants alive (fluff is contradictory on whether Eldar can be corrupted by Chaos, or simply have their souls eaten... either way this craftworld seemed to be good guys). But the other craftworlds are wary of Althansar - they think something fishy's going on for them to have survived in the EoT. We don't know what really happened.

Finally, Eldar don't have a standard policy for human colonies. Sometimes the Eldar leader feels magnanimous and spares a colony, especially if no dangerous relics or secrets have been revealed yet. Sometimes it's not out of feelings, and due to scrying the future and deciding that Imperial retaliation would be too dangerous to risk. And of course some attacks on human colonies aren't by craftworlds but by pirates, who do whatever they feel like.