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Khorghan
26-09-2007, 02:34
After reading in the high elf rumour confermation that the lion chariot causes fear it got me thinking, would someone who often battles chaos warbands and lives with fear every day lets say a common empire soldier who lives near the drakwald or up north and often fights big heavily armoured combat monsters like chaos warriors or orcs or even marauders be that afraid of a lion (your answer right now is probably yes) but everything in the warhammer world is werid and scary. now imagine this:


Going for a stroll, hunting perhaps? walking deeper and deeper into the forest...

JUST THEN!! 20 chaos warriors are marching toward you, much taller, much better fighters, heavily armored and equipted and they out number you!!, its a unit of them.

---------------------------------OR---------------------------------------


a lion runs at you






id be more scared of a unit of chaos warriors then i would a lion, and chaos warriors arnt even the best example because they are somewhat human, black orcs maybe???

i just feel that GW is using fear too much

Makaber
26-09-2007, 02:38
Yes, perhaps. As a Dark Elf player, I used to think fear causing mounts were sorta neat and unique, and suddenly these lions appear out of nowhere, which aren't just superior fighters but also cause fear as well. Bummer. Then again, fear isn't that common.

And the main reason I bothered to write this post, is to say: Learn to punctuate.

pcgamer72
26-09-2007, 03:21
I don't know. I'm almost convinced I'd be more scared of the lion. I believe that I would feel I had a better chance of hiding or going unnoticed when facing the unit of Chaos Warriors.

Highborn
26-09-2007, 03:33
Considering these are no ordinary lion, but instead are white lions unique to the mountains of Ulthuan and are larger than a warhorse ... I'd say the lions are pretty damn scary.

dodicula
26-09-2007, 03:47
The other thing about fear is its always from a human perspective, i.e. to a skink, a charging knight would be as alien scary as a zombie

Tadite
26-09-2007, 04:04
Fear is far to common for how powerful it is.

Unwise
26-09-2007, 05:01
The fear rule is often used for things that inspire an irrational or supernatural fear. It is perfectly rational to be afraid of 20 chaos warriors. Your actions against them will reflect this, eg you will shoot them from a distance, flee when they charge, send in expenable units etc. You are afraid of them, but capable of acting rationally.

A zombie on the other hand is much less capable of killing you, but they inspire irrational fear. You do not act logically against them, you try to fight them as you know that is the smart thing to do, but you tremble and pee yourself, so fight poorly.

Your little miniture knows he should be able to fight a lion, so he will try, but when it comes to the crunch, the primal irrational instinct kicks in, the one that screams "This is a predator, you are prey, run!". So he has to rely on leadership to overcome it. (He would have fled from a unit of 20CW, but would have done so as it is the rational thing to do).

Despite special rules, enemys do get scared by chaos warriors. Do people's armys react the same way to CW as they do to skaven slaves? No, they justifiably fear them. It is just a well grounded rational fear, reflected rules-wise by the fact that the CW will kill them all.

dodicula
26-09-2007, 06:11
yet my unit of 5 skinks will happily charge a unit of 20 knights but will hesitate against a lone zombie?

Also, I see the part about"irrational" i.e. zombies are supposed to have a magic aura causing fear, but what is more rational about charging a unit of chaos knights vs. a zombie? (other than the fact that thats how a game works, and works pretty well most of the time)

empireguard
26-09-2007, 06:30
Fear Isn't really that big a problem, unless you are outnumbered and lose combat so a single Lion chariot isn't that big a deal as most of they time your units will out number it. A large unit of Zombie's isn't that big a deal as you should be able to win combat.

However when you face a large unit that causes fear and is powerful in combat thats when you worry. Fear is over rated

Unwise
26-09-2007, 06:47
yet my unit of 5 skinks will happily charge a unit of 20 knights but will hesitate against a lone zombie?

Also, I see the part about"irrational" i.e. zombies are supposed to have a magic aura causing fear, but what is more rational about charging a unit of chaos knights vs. a zombie? (other than the fact that thats how a game works, and works pretty well most of the time)

Would you charge skinks into a unit of 20 chosen knights of khorne? Probably not. My skinks would have a rational fear of them, I/they know that if they charge in they are going to die, so I would not do it.

The 5 skinks would know it is a good idea to charge that zombie, but may find themselves unable to do so for irrational reasons.

If we want to justify fear, or the lack there of, via fluff and realism, I suggest first looking at how a battle actually plays out. Then put yourself in the shoes of the 'people' on the ground.

E.G. The unit of 20 Khorne Chosen terrified the empire army. They unloaded everything they had against it, every cannon and handgun that could be brough to bear. Unit after unit fled rather than face them. The warrior priest commanded the expendable flaggenants against it, praying they would hold the unstoppable unit for a while. When they failed, the count led his greatswords against them. Only their stubborn bravery allowed them to stand their ground as they were ground to dust under the hooves of the knights. Their lives bought enough time for the rest of the army though.

Looking at it like that, you can see that the unit did indeed inspire 'fear' in the enemy as per the fluff. The fluff matched the gameplay well.

The special rule called Causes Fear is not necessary for every unit that is genuinely 'fearsome'. It is only really necessary for units that are inexplicably fearsome.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think GW has done a perfect job of deciding who Causes Fear and who does not. It is not as bad as people make out though.

P.S. Another good test to see who should cause fear could be: Is it alot more scarey than a guy with a sword who will do that same amount of damage? Chaos Warriors = No, they are just guys with swords. Zombie = Yes, much scarier than the skaven slaves they fight worse than. Dragon = Yes, even more scarey than a pimped out special character of the same value. Beastmen = No, more scarey, but not by alot.

P.P.S. As a skaven/HE player, I don't see that too many things cause fear. However, if I were a VC player my opinion would be very different. There are way too many units in the game that either cause fear or are immune to psych and a VC player can gaurentee they will see them way too often. As a HE player though, no on bothers to use those against me, so I don't really see it or get sick of it.

Fredmans
26-09-2007, 15:00
With the risk of subverting this thread, I think the abundance of units being immune to psychology in combination with the number of fear-causing units is a far bigger problem than units actually causing fear. The result is that fear only pays off against certain armies, while some armies still pay plenty of points for it.

I play O&G, so I still suffer greatly from fear and terror checks, especially those cowardly goblins, but I see it as a huge problem from the perspective of armies like Ogres or the Undead.

I also agree with some other posters that it feels somewhat stupid that a chariot pulled by lions should cause fear. I suspect that it is a game-play issue, where the lions' lower movement make them susceptible to being charged and lose the advantage of being a chariot. The fear-causing rule makes it less likely to be charged by say, goblin wolf riders, but I dare say that it is a poor way to achieve said effect. Fear should be reserved for undead, demons, ogres, trolls, monsters.... and now lions???

/Fredmans

Urgat
26-09-2007, 16:08
Fredman beat me to it. The problem I see with that charriot (yeah, right, lions are frightening, more than a boar bigger than a horse charging at you) is that it is yet another unit that won't give a damn about units that rightfully causes fear (undead, ogres, etc). Fear is another form of immune to psychology in my eye, and armies that are inherantly based on fear (undead, deamons to name a couple) just lose more and more on that benefit. Pretty lame if you ask me.

Llew
26-09-2007, 16:14
I think Fear (and Terror) are some of the clunkiest mechanics in the game. Some armies rely on them, and some armies can be designed to completely ignore them. Fear ends up being either too powerful, or not powerful enough depending on what you face.

Generally, I wouldn't find a difference in the kind of fear I'd feel facing Chaos Warriors or a White Lion -- I'd be in complete fear for my life either way. As such, I think the current Fear rule is overused.

Thommy H
26-09-2007, 16:39
Fear ends up being either too powerful, or not powerful enough depending on what you face.

But isn't that the whole point of the Ld stat in the first place? Given that fear means you have to take a Ld test, isn't the differing effects of scary stuff on different troops types already taken into account?

It's not like the fear rules say "you run away on a 4+", which would obviously be silly. There's already a certain amount of variation already built into the rules.

Now, what you could have is "Fear (x)" as an ability, with "x" being the amount Ld is modified by when taking the test. So a zombie (weird, sure, but not that big or dangerous looking) might be "Fear (0)", where a unit of Nurgle Warriors could be "Fear (1)" because they're so big and spiky - or perhaps units that cause fear could have the "x" value based on their unit strength, which could also be expanded to monsters, so that big ones are scarier?

Just some thoughts on how the basic system is pretty easy to modify, I guess. I both support the current fear system, and believe it would be possible to make it more interesting without overhauling it entirely.

Llew
26-09-2007, 20:32
Well, it's not really the Ld factor that I find to be the problem. (Well, it is, but it's the fact that Ld plays little part in the mechanics, outside of the charge.)

Say you run a VC army. Fear is a significant factor in the unit cost. And if you play against an opponent who is not tooled up for it, it can be very effective. However, if you play against, say, a Dryad list, they will ignore your fear and the quality of their troops will pound yours into the ground.

Similarly, the idea that your unit autobreaks if outnumbered by Fear-causing troops is kludgy. In fact, it ignores that very same Ld stat that should matter so much. A doughty Dwarven general with Ld10 breaks just as easily as a Brettonian peasant or a goblin. *And* that dwarf could break without having his unit take a single wound, even as they cut down foes.

Then, what about the idea that there are different kinds of Fear? Sure, ogres are scary. But wouldn't they be just as creeped out by some awful undead menace as any other living thing? What about something that causes Fear just because of some supernatural ability to freak you out? Why wouldn't that work on them? (You can rationalize, but they're all pretty thin.)

Again...the basic system could be modified. I think a -2 penalty on break tests for Fear causing troops would be a pretty significant advantage. But you'd also need to cut down on the amount of Immune to Psych troops and so forth.

For Fear to really be changed, it would have to be part of a massive rebalancing effort that would cover every army. I don't see that sort of action being likely from GW.

Zonq
27-09-2007, 00:22
If I understand well, Lions are more frightening than Gigantic spiders nowadays? Well, good job GW!

Zonq

soots
27-09-2007, 00:57
I hate high elves :)

So true! im expecting big changes in the VC rulebook. Theyve nerfed fear and psychology so much VC have to rely on their elite melee powers to win.

Crazy Harborc
27-09-2007, 01:25
Well......as of right now......I am the ONLY guy in our little group of regular opponents who pushs HEs:D Bring it on, bring on all those great upgrades. Lions the size of elephants, Sword Masters with six arms.....LOVE IT all!!:p

dodicula
27-09-2007, 03:52
Would you charge skinks into a unit of 20 chosen knights of khorne? Probably not But you're avoiding the question, so fine why would my unit of 20 empire swordsmen charge 20 chaos chosen but have to test against a unit of 5 zombies.

Alathir
27-09-2007, 07:06
Keep in mind this is no ordinary lion... it is *********** huge!!! Yes, I would be scared of a massive lion, moreso than 10 or so gits in spiky armour.

Chiron
27-09-2007, 07:57
But you're avoiding the question, so fine why would my unit of 20 empire swordsmen charge 20 chaos chosen but have to test against a unit of 5 zombies.

Because those zombies were once living people, now they are nothing but mindless drooling half rotten chunks of flesh that play on one of the base fears of mankind, that of the dead coming back to life instead of 20 men with an S&M fetish

gorenut
27-09-2007, 08:03
I think Unwise has some wise words up there. Many seem to be missing the point. The whole rational fear is depicted by whatever decisions you make in the game. You know it is unwise to charge 1 skink vs 5 chosen chaos warriors. So that rational fear of the superior fighters is then transferred into your models on the tabletop. If you decide to charge anyways, it's because you know it's a suicide mission, therefore so does your skink (I know it sounds silly, but ultimately you are the brains of your miniatures). Fear as an effect is something that is outside of the control of what is known/unknown. Your troops making the decision to charge a lone zombie is by the fact of common knowledge that the zombie is relatively harmless. However, unnatural things outside of your and your troops' control causes irrational fear. They might pass it, finally getting rid of that unsettling feeling, or they just might get spooked by something they can't explain.

Ok, I know a lot of that probably sounded like rambling.

dodicula
27-09-2007, 18:40
"Because those zombies were once living people, now they are nothing but mindless drooling half rotten chunks of flesh that play on one of the base fears of mankind, that of the dead coming back to life instead of 20 men with an S&M fetish"


Thats just your way of seeing it, you say 20 men with an S&M fetish I see humans who were once normal mutated into parodies of themselves with tentacles, eyestalks and horns growing out of them, wearing flayed human skin...

I would say chaos warriors cause at least as much irrational fear. Also you can't really make that arguement for all the fear causing units, Phoenix guard are eerily quiet? Oh no run.

Sorry, the reason units cause fear in warhammer is the designers need them to, its not based on any guidline or standard.

Unwise
28-09-2007, 02:23
Thanks Gorenut, I thought I was going insane there for a bit. It's an odd concept to try and put into written words. Glad it made sense to someone.

mnbrit
28-09-2007, 03:34
the simple fact of the matter is, Fear is subjective, what scares one person, will not scare another, yes huge armoured knights are scary, but are they scarier than a phalanx of shambling zombies, who really knows.
GW had to generalise when it came to fear and terror, undead and monsters should certainly cause fear simply because of the nature of their being.
I can see why the lion chariot causes fear, its two giant lions roaring towards you with a hungry look in there eye, are giant lions scarier than giant spiders, maybe ( i have to admit a giant spider is less scary with a goblin on it).
then you have the question of would, for instance a skink be more afraid of a zombie or a chaos warrior?
in order fo the fear and terror rules to be truely acurate you would have to have a list for each unit and character type in every army book, detailing what units from other armies they are or are not afraid, and i just dont think thats practical

Binabik15
28-09-2007, 15:50
About the lions:

Go to a zoo and watch a lion from up close. I don´t know about you, but around here you can get as close as 2 metre inside the lions house, seperated from them only by pieces of metal 1 cm in diameter. This is scary. They´re huge and heavy and designed to kill. They´re predators. Their jaws open up enough to take your head completely in.

And those white lions are even bigger! Humeans are simply not meant to go head-to-head with them. They´re totaly different from human (shaped...) opponents, they move differently, you do not train how to fight against them. PLUS they´ll eat you.

Many fear-causing monsters will eat you: lions, cold ones, ogres, dragons, zombies, trolls (others will eat your soul...) This thought is IMHO much more frightening then some guys with swords.

You train how to fight them. You´re like them. They use weapons and become less effective if you disarm them or cut their hands of. Of course knights are scary and stuff, but you know that knights exist, you propabely dreamt about becoming one if you´re human and most soldiers will have enough experience or training to know the way cavalery works and how to counter them.

Imagine: You´re part of a demonstration, the police arrives. They use battons and water throwers, you throw rocks. Now suddenly you realise that you´ve been teleported into the 19th century and the police officers, well, they´re a bit more, well, drastic and they´ll let loose their police dogs. Whoops, you get charged by plain old German shepherds. I bet you´ll run.

Plus, how many citizens of the Empire (let alone Skaven or something) could reasonabely know how much more they´re fracked if the knights in question are red and have cute skulls on their armour?

But a lion charging on the battlefield is just random, even in the Warhammer world.

I don´t want to bug anyone, but at least lions causing fear makes sense compared to guys that are totally silent, even when they die, so you run away from them because they´re so totally silent :wtf:

Dr Death
28-09-2007, 15:58
I too am going to stand up for Unwise who makes a very good point about the nature of fear. If everything that is scary on the tabletop caused fear then every creature that hadnt lost it's marbles would have to test for fear every turn- war is scary.

The destinction between that kind of fear and the irrational, instinctive fear however is not only valid but essential to the notion of fear. Soldiers are paid/divinely rewarded to be brave in the face of martial superiority, they're trained to overcome that fear. However humankind at least cannot translate that into overcoming a fear of things that are just wrong such as the psychological sickening of facing demons or the reversal of the world's good order of facing Undead.

In the heightened atmosphere of war (not that i know much about it but from what i've read) it's seemingly innoccuous things that make all the difference. Anything that seems out the ordinary could be the next way for you to die: a strange noise, a flash of light. In 40k a lone sniper causes a pinning test yet a tank doesnt, that is based on the same kind of argument as why a zombie causes fear but a chosen knight doesnt.

So while that was just plain rambling i hope i've backed up Unwise's point somewhat.

Dr Death

Arnizipal
28-09-2007, 19:25
So what would you fear most? A huge lion or a huge spider?
Cause apparently huge lions cause fear yet the spider mounts of Goblins (even the huge ones ridden by characters) don't cause fear at all.

Kahadras
28-09-2007, 21:39
With the risk of subverting this thread, I think the abundance of units being immune to psychology in combination with the number of fear-causing units is a far bigger problem than units actually causing fear. The result is that fear only pays off against certain armies, while some armies still pay plenty of points for it

I agree. It's especialy hard on an army like Undead which is really built around the idea of Fear. Nowadays it seems like every army has a way round the problem (unbreakable stuff for instance) or just causes fear itself (like Ogres).

Kahadras

gorenut
28-09-2007, 22:07
So what would you fear most? A huge lion or a huge spider?
Cause apparently huge lions cause fear yet the spider mounts of Goblins (even the huge ones ridden by characters) don't cause fear at all.

Admittedly, a giant spider is pretty scary, but I think one of the posters ahead put it bluntly.... for some reason having a goblin riding on something, no matter how fierce, just makes it less frightening. Perhaps this can be explained by irrational unfear. :) Poor goblins, never get any respect.

Gazak Blacktoof
29-09-2007, 16:58
Giant Spiders- Given some of the dumb ass things goblins do having a goblin sitting on its back wouldn't exactly put me at ease.

What about squigs? They're just all seven shades of wrong, in any other universe they'd be daemons.

Khorghan
29-09-2007, 17:05
A giant spider ISNT scary when a goblin is riding it?!?!?! are you kidding me??

gerrymander61
29-09-2007, 18:04
If a giant spider can be tamed by a goblin, then I could kick it's ass. Anything a goblin can do, I can do better. Except maybe run away.

Gazak Blacktoof
29-09-2007, 19:55
Elves can tame dragons. That doesn't make dragons any cuter as far as I'm concerned.

Arnizipal
29-09-2007, 21:04
If a giant spider can be tamed by a goblin, then I could kick it's ass. Anything a goblin can do, I can do better. Except maybe run away.
ONE Goblin can't tame anything. Twenty goblins can.
Most will be killed and/or eaten by the beast but the sole survivor while be able to ride it in the end. ;)

Crazy Harborc
30-09-2007, 02:45
Um, it doesn't matter if "we" are afraid....it's the armies IN the WHFB world. Gobbos got long sharp teeth, nasty long claws....likely a strong BO as well.