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Remoah
26-09-2007, 06:46
Is it just me, or is there something that tells me the world of warhammer isnt all that populated?

I mean, i read somewhere that the population of Cadia is just under 1 billion? I mean, for a world defending against hordes of 8 foot tall mutants, they'd want something around the size of earth?

And the scale on which battles are fought (1 million deaths), doesnt seem all that large.

And if you read on the back of the IG Codex, it says that a warmaster once had command of 'half a million fighting men, and thirty-thousand tanks'.
For someone leading a crusade, that's not all too much. Considering the US Army has deployed over 200,000 combat forces overseas in i think something like 5-6 diffrent COUNTRIES. Correct me if i'm wrong, but there is something like 150,000 US troops in iraq alone, and someone expected to invade a planet being given (comparativley) only half a million...

Because something tells me, that the scale of which the human population works (IG Especially), isnt as 'huge' as it should be.

RavenMorpheus
26-09-2007, 06:49
Well plague, disease and war do take their toll on population sizes.

Panzerkanzler
26-09-2007, 06:57
Is it just me, or is there something that tells me the world of warhammer isnt all that populated?

I mean, i read somewhere that the population of Cadia is just under 1 billion? I mean, for a world defending against hordes of 8 foot tall mutants, they'd want something around the size of earth?

And the scale on which battles are fought (1 million deaths), doesnt seem all that large.

And if you read on the back of the IG Codex, it says that a warmaster once had command of 'half a million fighting men, and thirty-thousand tanks'.
For someone leading a crusade, that's not all too much. Considering the US Army has deployed over 200,000 combat forces overseas in i think something like 5-6 diffrent COUNTRIES. Correct me if i'm wrong, but there is something like 150,000 US troops in iraq alone, and someone expected to invade a planet being given (comparativley) only half a million...

Because something tells me, that the scale of which the human population works (IG Especially), isnt as 'huge' as it should be.

This is a common error in games. Everything is described to be masive but when the numbers are presented it really isn't that massive. I'm not saying one millions deaths is puny or that 500.000 soldiers are few, but considering the epic-ness of 41k the numbers are horribly deflated.

Invader Nails
26-09-2007, 07:07
Yeah, this comes up fairly often in bar room bickering about the silliness of 40K. The usual rule of thumb I've heard is to take every number you hear and multiply it by 10. That seems to work pretty well.

Slaaneshi Slave
26-09-2007, 07:40
With 500,000 men, orbital vehicles and a cruiser in space I could conquer earth without taking any casualties.

500,000 soldiers is a lot more than you seem to think.

Terrordar
26-09-2007, 07:49
But look at how it described Hive World Populations in the 3rd ed rulebook.

Sometimes as high as what, 28,000,000,000?

Remoah
26-09-2007, 07:53
With 500,000 men, orbital vehicles and a cruiser in space I could conquer earth without taking any casualties.

500,000 soldiers is a lot more than you seem to think.

Yes, earth, guardsmen.
Not 8 foot tall daemonically posessesed super humans or 7 foot tall, enraged fungi that can take a bolter round to the head and survive.

And 500,000 troops is ALOT, but in the scale the Imperium is supposed to operate on, it's not that much.

Commander Zhypher
26-09-2007, 08:28
With 500,000 men, orbital vehicles and a cruiser in space I could conquer earth without taking any casualties.

500,000 soldiers is a lot more than you seem to think.

Hardly, last time i checked China alone has a standing army of 2 million men. depends on how hard you blast us from orbit ofc :p

Panzerkanzler
26-09-2007, 09:25
Hardly, last time i checked China alone has a standing army of 2 million men. depends on how hard you blast us from orbit ofc :p

Well, he said one cruiser. I don't have the BFG rulebook but I doubt one cruiser could subjugatet all of earth. Especially since scientific progress (in the art of dealing death) escalates into warp speed during war times. We'd think of something to repel the freaks from space ;)

Besides, should everything fail we could just buld gigantic loud speakers and play "Helmut Lottis christmas carols". Would kill all the enemy guardsmen in a heartbeat!

Nkari
26-09-2007, 09:33
500k men are puny.. Barbarossa alone involved 3 million men crossing the border into russia.. And D-day saw 130K ppl land on the beaches... and 11 weeks later when paris fell the allies had suffered 600K cassulties..

500k men for a systemwide crusade is laughable.. heck even a planetary invasion 500k troops is not nearly enough.. even with orbital bombardment..

50 million men then we can invade a planet or two..

Tho the size of the invading force needs to be about 3 times as big as the defenders can muster at a minimum, preferably you are need to look at 4-5 times the numbers the oponent has unless you out-tech them by decades or are veterans fighting conscripts.. :P


And about the cruiser.. well.. we got a few hundred nukes that can quite easilly be changed to take the route out into space.. and should we wish we can produce even bigger nukes..

Scythe
26-09-2007, 09:41
With 500,000 men, orbital vehicles and a cruiser in space I could conquer earth without taking any casualties.

500,000 soldiers is a lot more than you seem to think.

Conquer it? Possibly. Hold it? That might be more tricky, depending on the views of the general population. If you look at the trouble the Americans have keeping order in Irak alone, I don't think 500,000 men will do keeping a population of over 1 billion spread over an entire planets surface in order (without blasting everything apart from space, that is).

Slaaneshi Slave
26-09-2007, 09:55
If you are willing to go to any means to conquer and hold a planet, you can do it with a fraction of the number. If I can hit your cities from half a system away with melta torpedoes and lance strikes how long do you think the troubles will last? If everytime you killed one of my soldiers I kill a million of your civilians from orbit, you wont be killing many of my soldiers before you get the idea.

This is the Imperium we are talking about, they have no qualms with killing a billion people.

For an idea of how it is possible, read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Robert A. Heinlein. Four people and a computer subdue the Earth.

Quentin
26-09-2007, 10:44
... read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Robert A. Heinlein. Four people and a computer subdue the Earth.

Wow. Sounds boring. I prefer global domination plans to involve massive armies, special agents and Superweapons. Not 4 geeks sitting in a treehouse using thier Dell. It's probably better than that but still.

Anyway. Yes only 0.5M troops is silly. As mentioned before, whatever statistical figure you come across from an Imperial perspective, always multiply it by 10. I actually like to think these discrepancies are due to propaganda reasons.

It sounds much more impressive if you conquer a planet with only 10% of the forces you would plausibly need.

Slaaneshi Slave
26-09-2007, 11:22
The moon is a penal colony of the earth, but as the prisoners are living their entire lives there, so of course they breed. This in turn means that over 98% of the population are born and free Loonies (the moon is called Luna, and its population Loonies). They all get treated like slaves. Cut a long story short a freak of technology - the computer which controls the colony develops fully functional AI by accident, and helps four conspiritors run a rebellion which takes over the moon first, then throws rocks at earth, each with the destructive power of a very large nuclear weapon (but no fallout), using the threat of destroying civilian population centers to gain freedom from Earth.

Its a very good book.

Gorbad Ironclaw
26-09-2007, 11:26
If you are willing to go to any means to conquer and hold a planet, you can do it with a fraction of the number. If I can hit your cities from half a system away with melta torpedoes and lance strikes how long do you think the troubles will last? If everytime you killed one of my soldiers I kill a million of your civilians from orbit, you wont be killing many of my soldiers before you get the idea.

This is the Imperium we are talking about, they have no qualms with killing a billion people.


Can you mention one conflict in history, where such terror tactics have actually worked in subduing and holding a country for any real lenght of time?

Besides, you can bombard the place from orbit all you like, but that's not holding it. To do that, you need boots on the ground, and the scale used by GW is laughable. 500.000 might work against a technological inferiour enemy, but taking half a million men, or even five million men and claim that's enough troops for a sector wide crusade is plain silly if you consider them armed with something more advanced than rocks.

sebster
26-09-2007, 11:38
A small number of men can take and hold a population many times its number if it can levy support among some portion of the local power groups. If you have technological superiority, political savvy and a few trade goods you can run the show in very short order.

But that’s all quite irrelevant, as GW isn’t talking about smaller armies leveraging power. It’s talking about vast armies in massive conflicts hacking their way across the galaxy. It just picked some numbers that aren’t really up to that scale.

Ah well, just replace with a number more to your own liking and get on with your gaming.

Apologist
26-09-2007, 12:04
Can you mention one conflict in history, where such terror tactics have actually worked in subduing and holding a country for any real lenght of time?

In any case, there's no need, when you can simply bomb the place back to the stone age and then ship in a whole new planetary population from a Hive World.


500.000 might work against a technological inferiour enemy, but taking half a million men, or even five million men and claim that's enough troops for a sector wide crusade is plain silly if you consider them armed with something more advanced than rocks.

You're ignoring the fact that the Imperium doesn't work like modern (or even ancient) warfare. It's not a case of occupying territory or winning hearts and minds. It's simply a case of depopulating areas then repopulating them with loyal humans – the First War for Armageddon, for example.

In addition, the type of warfare you're describing (technologically capable enemy) is in a tiny minority. A better model would be eighteenth and nineteenth century colonialism – relatively few worlds in the Imperium are classed as civilised worlds.

I'll cede that taking warfare against a technologically capable enemy as an example, the numbers do seem tiny. The Damocles Crusade is a good example of this.

destroyerlord
26-09-2007, 12:05
You all seem to be forgetting that the smaller populations are universal. That means that most worlds in 40k probably have a much smaller population than earth, and much of that population would be concentrated in a small area(much of Armageddon for example is ash wastes). Human populations on isolated planets may be higher, or populations on certain important forge worlds or hive worlds. Using STC based technology means that most farming on agri worlds would probably be automated to a large extent.
Anyway, my point is that if there are less people on each planet then the armies that are spread amongst them would be smaller too. A company of marines (only 100 men) is enough to quell most insurgencies on a planet. (most rebellions would probably be in a small area). The arrival of an entire chapter, still only 1000 fighting men, will get an entire system back to emperor worship in a flash.

Slaaneshi Slave
26-09-2007, 12:08
Can you mention one conflict in history, where such terror tactics have actually worked in subduing and holding a country for any real lenght of time?

Can you mention one conflict in history where either side has used orbital bombardment to reduce cities to ashes in minutes?


Besides, you can bombard the place from orbit all you like, but that's not holding it. To do that, you need boots on the ground, and the scale used by GW is laughable. 500.000 might work against a technological inferiour enemy, but taking half a million men, or even five million men and claim that's enough troops for a sector wide crusade is plain silly if you consider them armed with something more advanced than rocks.

Earth is technologically inferior. We are practically stone age compared to them. If every military installation on Earth is destroyed, then every industrial center, then population centers are used as examples, how long would the will to fight last? Maybe they could turn asia into a desert, just to scare people away from fighting.

Civilians are not good fighters. They are pretty ***** overall. Soldiers are predictable, and can be wiped out from orbit easily, as all our communications rely on orbital satilites, which are easy enough to crack open, especially if you can actually stand somebody on it.

Captain Micha
26-09-2007, 12:17
Yes but they wouldn't understand the concept of orbital satellites as they themselves do not have any. heaven forbid they send down ground troops as apparently our stuff with the exception of plasma and melta is > theirs. We'd pop their tanks like paper, and our's are more survivable for the crew.

and you are assuming that they'd be able to actually wipe out every installation. Nuclear weapons are capable of going into space.. just a matter of redirecting to a new target. The typical invasion force that goes to a planet would be wiped out if -anything- gw says about warfare in the 41st millennium were true. With relativly few casualties on our side.

Slaaneshi Slave
26-09-2007, 12:19
Nuclear weapons can go into space, true. Actually getting through the vessels defensive batteries is quite something else though. What do you do about Void Shields, too? We have nothing that will touch a Imperial Navy battle ship.

EDIT: To take out every military installation does not require them to actually be destroyed, rather that their command and control facilities are destroyed (the Brigade and above headquarters) and communications are taken down. Armies cannot function without these things.

Scythe
26-09-2007, 12:31
Can you mention one conflict in history where either side has used orbital bombardment to reduce cities to ashes in minutes?


Yes, but there is not much point in conquering a planet if you burn it down completely, is there? Remember, things like Exterminatus are last resort methods. The Imperium might not hesitate to use it if needed, but it is not a standard procedure to be used against every system with a rebellion going on. Humans as resource might be expendable in the 40K universe, but other things aren't that much (like in the 1st Armageddon war; the Imperium couldn't afford to destroy the planet, so they entirely repopulated it).

Of course, levelling a city might win you the 'formal war', causing a planet to surrender, but it doesn't prevent terrorists (well, I'll use the more political correct term 'cults' here) from undermining the system from within, especially with a puny amount of troops/support. You cannot nuke an invisible enemy, unless you are willing to give up an entire planet + resources.

Remoah
26-09-2007, 12:49
[QUOTE=Slaaneshi Slave;1949027]

Civilians are not good fighters. They are pretty ***** overall. [\QUOTE]

Not actually, civillians may not have much weapons training, but in thier homeland they have local knowledge, support from people willing to hide them and the fact they're fighting for much more than the attackers.

Anyhow, nothing puts fear into soldiers as when your death might come from an 8 year old with a backpack on his way to 'school'. Homeland defenders will go to extreme lengths to defend thier homeland.

Nkari
26-09-2007, 13:06
Yup Remoah, and the more you opress the ppl the more desperate they become.. compare the IRA and the many palestinians.. the IRA did not use many suicide bombings, while the palestinians are using it for most of their attacks because they are so locked down that they can not do much else..

And regarding void shields, I belive torpedoes pass throu the shields with little or no difficult, and so does smaller crafts such as bombers and fighters, meaning they would be quite ineffective vs nukes wich is much smaller than normal BFG torpedoes but sending them up en mase such as the tau does(not nukes but large number of smaller missiles to simulate the same effect of one big imperial torpedoe) would work quite well vs a cruiser in orbit.. but this is speculation ofc since it does not exist other than in the 40k fluff..

Quentin
26-09-2007, 13:42
Can you mention one conflict in history where either side has used orbital bombardment to reduce cities to ashes in minutes?


The First Robotech War (2009-10) of course. 70% of the Earth's surface destoyed.

(Yay for silly Anime references :D)

Slaaneshi Slave
26-09-2007, 15:53
[QUOTE=Slaaneshi Slave;1949027]

Civilians are not good fighters. They are pretty ***** overall. [\QUOTE]

Not actually, civillians may not have much weapons training, but in thier homeland they have local knowledge, support from people willing to hide them and the fact they're fighting for much more than the attackers.

Anyhow, nothing puts fear into soldiers as when your death might come from an 8 year old with a backpack on his way to 'school'. Homeland defenders will go to extreme lengths to defend thier homeland.

When those soldiers are in orbit, and the local knowledge becomes useless as the cruiser just rearranged the earths crust in your area with a Melta Torpedo?

You cannot compare conventional or guerrilla warfare as we know it on Earth today to an invasion led by orbital bombardment and drop ships.

Lost Primarch
26-09-2007, 16:19
If those 500,000 are all strictly fighting troops (i.e. infantry, fighter pilots or heavy armour) then it is quite a lot due to the fact that there will be another 2 million people (military or non-military) will be supporting them with administration, engineers, logistics, intelligence, transport, navy etc.

On earth, things like intelligence, logistics and even administration are often very large units in armies, whereas in the 40k universe they more often than not civilians, bureaucrats or part of the inquisition - I've never heard of the Emperor's Logistics Corps anyways.

Slaaneshi Slave
26-09-2007, 16:22
Civilians perform the role of Logistics Corps type of thing in the Imperial Guard; Guants Ghosts have to protect some in one of the early books. I'd imagine the Imperial navy takes care of most of it though.

TheOverlord
26-09-2007, 16:32
I thought the Warmaster, as in Horus, lead a host of 5 million strong regiments of guardsmen with his entire legion (roughly maybe say 20k? marines) along with any other legions and their assorted regiments attached to them as well?

Half a million strong guardsmen may not be much, but half a million strong marines... now that's something to truly fear.

Although it's true, the population in 40k seems a tad low, but i think it has to do with the purpose of the world itself. Aggri worls tend to have lower population to give space to the Grox's they rear there. Probably a billion lives or less. Hive worlds are said to have a billion souls in 1 hive, and there are maybe tens of hives habiting any single hive world. Mining worlds are the most sparse, having possibly less than a million people living there.

Of course this is all just what I think I garnered from assorted fluff read through different WD's and the horus heresy books, not entirely sure if I got any of those numbers right though.

Brother Loki
26-09-2007, 17:15
There's massive swing in the populations of different worlds. Mining or agri-worlds might only have populations in the hundreds or thousands, because most of the work is done by servitors or machines. At the other end of the scale, hiveworlds often have populations in the tens of billions.

Take a look at the Calixis Sector info that's just gone up on the Black industries site:

http://www.blackindustries.com/?template=CX&content=calixis-index

Scintilla, the sector capital, has a population of 25,000,000,000.

Grazzy
26-09-2007, 17:41
Yes, GW fluff numbers do not add up. Crusades are pretty small. The tabletop game also doesn't really work. 5k apocalypse games? Even guard may only have 400 models on the board. 400 men is nothing. The imperium should be able to throw thousands and thousands into battles similar in importance to what apocalypse represents.

satormortis
26-09-2007, 21:23
A half a million troops is a sizable crusade. Do the math on what kind of fleet and support you'd need.

The mistake people often make is thinking that if the Imperium invades a planet that they actually conquer the whole planet.. they don't. If you check the epic fluff and fluff from the sabbat worlds crusade (for example), you'll see that a crusade merely creates a beachhead on a newly conquered planet. It destroys its military, kills its leaders and breaches its fortresses and then moves on to the next planet. Over the next years or decades more troops are moved in, along with Arbites, Ministrorum, etc etc and only then will a planet be properly brought into the Imperial fold.. And if there are still any cities or fortresses holding out then the siege regiments are brought in :D

That's the reason why there are over a billion Guardsmen involved in the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, yet you only ever see a relatively small number of regiments deployed. Front line regiments like the Tanith 1st are moved to new warzones as soon as they've won the major battles, and then secondary troops are moved in to consolitate the victory. Sure, there might be insurgents and rebels for decades to come, but as an Empire that has lasted 10.000 years already the Imperium can afford to wait a generation before the population is fully indoctrinated..


That said, GW employs monkeys high on crack to work out their numbers.

trigger
26-09-2007, 21:26
firstly the imperiam rarly uses nuclear weapons or virus bombs because you cant re populate the planet...
as to the original question this an oversite by gw . in third war of armaggedon only 3 million orks attacked the planet gw have admited ther mistake on this one and have agreed they didnt do there home work

Scythe
27-09-2007, 08:28
A half a million troops is a sizable crusade. Do the math on what kind of fleet and support you'd need.

The mistake people often make is thinking that if the Imperium invades a planet that they actually conquer the whole planet.. they don't. If you check the epic fluff and fluff from the sabbat worlds crusade (for example), you'll see that a crusade merely creates a beachhead on a newly conquered planet. It destroys its military, kills its leaders and breaches its fortresses and then moves on to the next planet. Over the next years or decades more troops are moved in, along with Arbites, Ministrorum, etc etc and only then will a planet be properly brought into the Imperial fold.. And if there are still any cities or fortresses holding out then the siege regiments are brought in :D

That's the reason why there are over a billion Guardsmen involved in the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, yet you only ever see a relatively small number of regiments deployed. Front line regiments like the Tanith 1st are moved to new warzones as soon as they've won the major battles, and then secondary troops are moved in to consolitate the victory. Sure, there might be insurgents and rebels for decades to come, but as an Empire that has lasted 10.000 years already the Imperium can afford to wait a generation before the population is fully indoctrinated..


That said, GW employs monkeys high on crack to work out their numbers.

This sounds very reasonable. Naturally, destroying enemy military gets a lot easier if you have control over space and a few big ships in orbit. You could probably manage with even less than half a million troops.

Still, you'd need reinforcements pretty fast; half a million soldiers are not going to keep a hostile population of billions (well, depends on planet of course, but you catch my drift) quiet for long. Not that they pose any credible tread to the empire outside the given planet, but I assume you'd want to keep most industry and infrastructure intact when you are taking over a planet.

Makes you wonder tough; how does the Imperium takes over Ork held worlds? I can imagine a sizable Ork filled planet also has a population of a few billion, and every Ork is a natural born soldier. Just blast apart everything from orbit? Are these kinds of crusades even attempted anymore?

Beast Rabban
27-09-2007, 08:54
I like to think of these things bieng written by scribes in some far of place. The only thing they know about is bieng a scribe. Imagine one sitting in a hall with say 10 000 other scribes. A slip arrives on the dask saying, another glorious victory has been won in a huge battle etc. write about it. From the perspective of the scribe 500 000 seems really really big so that is what gets written.

Oh and I don't think Earth would give the Empirium much af a problem.
ARE YOU KIDDING?

Gwwwargh
27-09-2007, 13:33
You guys are missing something huge if we got attacked right now how many of us with sign up and join them... lol we are all human after not xenos so im sure a few billion soldiers would be a very nice for the Emperor... yes I know billions of ppl don’t play or even know about warhammer but im sure you’ll inform them if you see Imperialguard walking down the street. I’m also aware of our many relgions on this world that will not devote themselves to the emperor but this is just me being a dumbass.

I don’t think wed stand a chance agasint a attack by the IG or any other Warhammer 40k army. Id say take every number you hear and multiply it by 10 or the numbers are just Propaganda is a nice way to deal with it

Ohhh and for the record Id paint myself green take some steroids and join up with the nearest waaagh.... but thats just me being a dumbass again

Master Jeridian
27-09-2007, 14:21
Stage 1: Intelligence. Somehow insert Scouting forces onto the planet, dropships, pods, teleport? A good station for the primary recon vessel would be the dark side of the moon. It is very, very unlikely a vessel will be spotted entering the system, and approaching from the correct angle can get behind the moon in short order.

Stage 2a: Diplomacy. The Imperium isn't as idiotic as some suggest, it hasn't survived for 10,000years by shooting first, asking questions later. An envoy would be sent to a human world depending on the intelligence gathered. If the world is enslaved to machines, chaos gods, xenos- then this stage is probably skipped.

If the world is like Earth, an isolated, lesser tech human society- the envoy will be sent 'take me to your leader' style.
The Imperium will be explained, as will the benefits of joining such a 'federation'- i.e. the mutual support in times of attack, trade, etc. If sold as an alliance at first, many leaders would sign up. Then slowly but surely Missionaries will build Chapels, off-worlders will bring tradeships, new tech, etc, etc.
It doesn't matter if some distant, rural part of the world has a grudge against the off-worlders, the main population centres and countries are slowly converted to them.

Stage 2b: Command and Control. If diplomacy fails or is not possible, it's necessary to give a show of force, or engage in war. First principle is to eliminate any and all orbital installations. Doesn't matter if the Imperial Navy doesn't know what they're for- their elimination will only hamper the enemy and benefit the IN.

Next is to move into orbit and eliminate any ground defences. Many people on here have assumed 'our nukes are duh awezome!!211'.
Think about it, if the Imperium is meant to represent a far distant future of humanity- I think they'd have found a way around the nukes of ancient times.

And they have, any vessels leaving orbit of the besieged world will receive the full attention of the of anti-fighter batteries. Literally hundred of giant rapid firing guns along the flanks of mile wide battleships...
Their launch points recieving immediate pinpoint lance strikes.

Once this is achieved, and even if it results in the loss of 1-2 escort vessels. You have orbital superiority, think of air superiority today but a hundred times more intimidating.

At this stage most 'Earth-tech level' worlds would be looking at some form of communication/negotiation. None of this Hollywood 'fight to the end' crap.

Stage 3: Suppression. If somehow the population is still openly resistant, a show of force may be require. The orbital bombardment of a population centre may be necessary, despite it's horrible nature. The nuclear bombing of Japan caused one of the most devoted, loyal populations of a country to reconsider fighting to the death and instead sue for peace.

Stage 4: Occupation. Only when a world is visibly defeated are troops actually sent onto the ground, i.e. any visible defences, official armies, etc have been destroyed.
This will mean the only threat left is an underground guerilla movement. And the IG have centuries of fighting this.

This form of subjugation requires very little open ground combat. The kind of events represented in 40k and Epic wouldn't occur. They'd only happen if two forces are roughly equally matched, or against equally matched Xenos, etc.

It also means your an Occupying force which doesn't need as much manpower as a force fighting against an equally equipped/trained army. Hence the small army sizes.

Even if for some reason a ground attack is required, numerical superiority doesn't automatically mean victory. An Imperial force can attack at any point on a planet's surface with it's full force. A defending army must therefore either spread across it's main population centres- becoming weakened in all places, or concentrate on a few population centres, leaving the other's free to be occupied by the Imperium.

This ignores the fact Imperial tech far surpasses Earth level. A modern rifle is the equivalent of an autogun in 40k. A few people on here have uttered to nonsense that 'all our guns are better than theirs' which idiotically doesn't translate 40k stats into reality or vice versa.
If you must make a comparison- use the autogun/modern rifle as your baseline and translate.

Obermotz
27-09-2007, 14:55
I think most of the comparision stuff going on just took range into account. I suppose that the empire is capable of building weaponry that equals an M16 or an modern Howitzer.

On the other hand a leman russ seems more like a RL KV-2 tank on speed than a modern MBT(they even dont know how to produce AP shells anymore) but then there is a lascannon which could wreak an abrams in seconds(when it hits:)

All these comparisions are silly as long I dont know a real way to convert the size/rangemeasures..

Master Jeridian
27-09-2007, 16:15
Just use the autogun/modern rifle comparison. Ranges in 40k are downsized partly for gaming reasons- so you don't have to play across a basketball court, with 2mm models, but also because the range a weapon can hit if on a sunny shooting range with hours to aim is a lot farther than the optimal range in a built-up area or forest, against camouflaged, fast-moving and hiding targets with fractions of a second to react.

Slaaneshi Slave
27-09-2007, 16:33
A Basilisk would have a max range anywhere between 24km and 75km depending on the weapon system you compare it to. That gives it a 40k range (1/72?) of 13,000 inches to 40,625 inches. Get your tape measures out boys.

A rifle will fire effectively generally up to your maximum visibility range. It is very rare that you can see 600m in any direction, especially when you're on your belt buckle. 600m is the rough max range (and max we train to) of an SA80.

FireN.Brimstone
27-09-2007, 16:48
Regarding subduing our planet, and indeed subduing any large population center, remember that the Empire is willing to use far harsher tactic then we every would because if the Empire has one thing, it citizens to re-populate worlds with ;)

Adra
27-09-2007, 16:56
Ah this convo again...simple really...the Imperium are so far advanced in space that we can never match them there. we have no effective attack or defence against space warfare and so we would lose. best example....imagine two armies...one has war planes and the other has no planes or anti-air defense...now just from that alone...who would win?

How much do you think it would take? One lance strike over Washinton D.C. could gouge out a crator half a mile deep and burn everything for miles around in a heartbeat. How many of thouse before the US holds up its hands? how much could we take before we cower and beg for mercy?

Give me victory or give me death is one thing...but ill be singing Ave Imperator thanks very much.

Invader Nails
28-09-2007, 00:01
Even disregarding the whole space issue, I think we'd realize we were beat as soon as the IG started taking out our tanks with laser cannons, blowing apart our soldiers with heavy bolters, and frying our brains with psykers. In an even more extreme case, imagine a modern infantryman trying to fight a Space Marine. Or imagine an Emperor Titan smashing its way through London. Not pretty.

I imagine the Imperium would consider 21st Century Earth military as clever but primitive.

Glabro
28-09-2007, 02:31
Let´s use official numbers for fun.
The claimed Imperial World count is only roughly one million (and that is a very low number on galactic scale).

There seems to be about 50 planets per sector, and the sector capital is a hive world. That makes 20.000 Hive Worlds.

The 3e rulebook estimates 100 (american) billion to 500 billion inhabitants per hive world.

That gives us an average of 300.000.000.000 inhabitants times 20.000 Hive Worlds, giving us a population of
6.000.000.000.000.000, or 6 quadrillion (on the short scale), or 6 million billion inhabitants for the hive worlds alone.

It´s futile to count the population of the rest of the worlds, and by the stated fluff, their populations are meaninglessly small to Earth-sized, and thus don´t affect the 6 quadrillion figure in a meaningful way.

Still, 6 million billion inhabitants is pretty respectable.
It´s anyone´s guess how much of that is inducted into planetary PDFs, and the Imperial Guard´s strength is probably around a tenth of all the PDFs combined - which is a frickin´ huge figure.

Let´s take China´s figure of 2.6 million men in the armed forces compared to their population of 1.32 billion, so about 2% of the population in arms.

2% of 6 quadrillion is, of course, 12 trillion.

A tenth of that in the Imperial Guard would make about 1.2 trillion men fighting in the Imperial Guard at all times.
(Which is quite amazing, since when we were talking about this a year or so back with a friend, we ended up with a trillion in the Guard back then as well),

Take my estimates for what they´re worth, but at least they are somewhat sensible.

It´s just sobering to notice how tiny a number a million marines is compared to a trillion guardsmen, eh?

Oh, and none of this takes the Imperial Navy in account.

killa kan kaus
28-09-2007, 05:24
If think earth would stand a chance against the current ork codex

LoneSniperSG
28-09-2007, 05:45
Can you mention one conflict in history, where such terror tactics have actually worked in subduing and holding a country for any real lenght of time?

Besides, you can bombard the place from orbit all you like, but that's not holding it. To do that, you need boots on the ground, and the scale used by GW is laughable. 500.000 might work against a technological inferiour enemy, but taking half a million men, or even five million men and claim that's enough troops for a sector wide crusade is plain silly if you consider them armed with something more advanced than rocks.

Then what do you call naval barricades and defensive tactics? Ships don't just attack.

This is a little disjointed, but if I showed up with 5 ships, with only a fighter wing or two each, and 50,000 men and 5,000 armor pieces each, I could do whatever I wanted to.

Your big ships are the hammer in space. Fighters are interceptors for missiles and fighters alike. Such missiles are slow as crap, and the smaller ones are still subject to point-defense systems from the capital ships.

The ground-pounders of course would be deployed at a time when any surface reisistance has passed. (Sure, countries here on Terra have nuclear missiles, but they're not infinite). At such time, many orbiting satellites would have been knocked out, leaving the uncontested fleets the opportunity to deliver salvoes to the surface.

So yes.. I suppose, This all supports the basis of "You don't need 3 billion men". Just requires... a brutal type of finesse.


Even if I showed up with only one or two ships. I could still pwn Earth.

Glabro
29-09-2007, 02:04
Just checked the Wikipedia arcticle on Horus Heresy, they have casualty numbers in the trillions for the HH, sounds about right.

And the "Half a million" figure most certainly meant Space Marines.

Psycho_Laughs
29-09-2007, 06:57
i just like to mention to in agreement with glabro, in the necromunda rule book, i remember it being stated that in one of the adjecent hive to hive primus, a census was attempted. they stoped counting after they reached 200+ billion inhabitants. :eek:
how many were counted twice is not said but if you estimate that every person was counted twice, thats still 100 billion people.
also take in consideration that necromunda has 13 hives...:rolleyes:
and necromunda is a known planet to provide huge numbers of guard regiments.;)

IncubiLord
29-09-2007, 09:33
But look at how it described Hive World Populations in the 3rd ed rulebook.

Sometimes as high as what, 28,000,000,000?
500,000,000,000.

hiveworlds often have populations in the tens of billions.
Only the exceptionally-small ones... ;)

Can you mention one conflict in history, where such terror tactics have actually worked in subduing and holding a country for any real lenght of time?
I seem to recall a world-wide war that would have dragged on for quite a while if not for two very large, very nasty bombs dropped. Some place called Hiroshima or some such springs to mind, but maybe I'm mis-remembering how much of an impact that bomb and the other had... *

Just proving that you're willing to repeatedly, blindly destroy masses of an opposed people seems sufficient to subdue a great deal of resistance. Increase scale of destruction to 40K proportions (destroy the smallest continent to prove a point), and you shouldn't have to land troops to take over a planet.

2% of 6 quadrillion is, of course, 12 trillion.
Not to be insulting, but wouldn't 2% of 6 quadrillion be 120 trillion?
The norm is 1,000 to reach the next number-type, thus making 1% of the next type up 10 of the current type.

Your numbers just grew exponentially...

* = The act alluded to is not to be taken nearly as lightly as the post implies. There's a certain degree of sarcasm to that response which may elude the casual reader.

Glabro
29-09-2007, 10:17
Heh, you´re right. In my defense, I posted that thing at 4:31 AM.
No need to explain the theory, it was just a sloppy goof-up (being tired and thus too lazy to input the figure into the simply Winblows calculator, since it was so easy).

In any case, an armed forces of 120 trillion for population of 6 quadrillion sounds more right. That´d make 12 trillion in the Guard, which is in scale to the Horus Heresy death toll.

Now, what planet types did the Imperium have that are in the 1-99 billion range in population, and how common are they?

Vandur Last
29-09-2007, 10:17
I quite enjoy this talk of millions of trillions and such, its reassuring. It really does irritate me when GW undershoot the realistic numbers by so far.

Im still trying to convince myself that the tiny population of a world as important as Cadia is ok because its a Garrison World, not an actual Hive World.

IncubiLord
29-09-2007, 21:23
Now, what planet types did the Imperium have that are in the 1-99 billion range in population, and how common are they?
That would be "Civilised Worlds" - whose population can go from 15 million to 10 billion.

Such worlds are generally self-sufficient and of a standard technology level for the Imperium, but not Agri-worlds, Deathworlds, or Forge-worlds.

Strangely, there's no world-type listed between the population sizes of 10 Billion and 100 Billion. Nor are there populations smaller than 100 with the exception of a possible population of 1 on a dead world (don't ask how, but they say a dead world can have a population of 1) Such population sizes are apparently exceptionally large or small for their given world-type (or the world is a mixed-classification - if that's possible).

Remoah
30-09-2007, 15:01
If you were to pit, say, 25 US Marines, standard soldiers with M4's, 2 grenade launchers per squad, a bit of tactical equipment (Red-Dot sights, custom grips, nothing too special), against say, 50 guard, i'm pretty sure the Marines would win.

However, imagine having to deal with an army that doesnt CARE to loose 50 men in one battle, imaging having them drop onto you not from planes, which can be shot down, but from space.
Imagine that, if you REALLY put up a fight, your battle could be ended within a few seconds by a simple lance strike.

I think we'd loose if the Imperium attacked us, but there is no imperium, anyhow, our soldiers would be far better trained than those of the Imperium.

Slaaneshi Slave
30-09-2007, 15:08
Far better trained, but far worse equiped.

Master Jeridian
30-09-2007, 15:14
I'd class armies like the US Marines or Rangers as on a par with the Imperial Storm Troopers for equipment and training.

Just because IG always die in droves in the stories does not make them a worse army than modern day- no always fighting superhuman warriors, giant bugs, daemons from the warp etc would kill modern armies in droves too.

TheOverlord
30-09-2007, 15:17
I dunno, the guard you're putting up against US marines are possibly those of the lesser known regiments. Put those legendary regiments of reknown down there, they would probably equal or better those marines.

Not even gonna consider the space marines, they just cheese the whole lot ><

Slaaneshi Slave
30-09-2007, 15:17
US Marines and Rangers are nothing bloody special. They are not well trained and they are not well equiped.

Storm Troopers are above and beyond anything we can produce today. :rolleyes:

TheOverlord
30-09-2007, 15:28
Considering Storm Troopers fire off supercharged las-shots that could melt any kind of flak armor we could produce this day and age in a single volley I'd say I have to agree with Slaaneshi Slave

Iracundus
30-09-2007, 16:05
While the IG field a MBT (the Leman Russ) with officially GW given performance characteristics and speeds straight out of World War II...

Slaaneshi Slave
30-09-2007, 16:08
A lasgun also has an effective range of 24m. We all know that GW don't know bugger all about how real military equipment actually works.

Leftenant Gashrog
30-09-2007, 21:32
A lasgun also has an effective range of 24m. We all know that GW don't know bugger all about how real military equipment actually works.

back when 40k had a stated scale it was 1" = 2m, so that would be 48m

Confrontation (predecessor to Necromunda) had actual stated ranges for weapons, and most were much more realistic

Panzerkanzler
30-09-2007, 22:17
A lasgun also has an effective range of 24m. We all know that GW don't know bugger all about how real military equipment actually works.

24 meters, eh? That's dandy, we'd have nothing to worry about then! Except for the orbital bombardments and such.

Glabro
01-10-2007, 01:42
....you DO know what an effective range in a combat situation means, right?

Slaaneshi Slave
01-10-2007, 03:12
Yes, the effective range of my rifle is a little more than 24" though. ;)

Raven1
01-10-2007, 03:51
....you DO know what an effective range in a combat situation means, right?

An M-16 in a marines hands has an effective range of like 300m

Glabro
01-10-2007, 20:30
So you don´t. Well, I guessed as much. You see, it´s a rather different ballgame out there when the bad guys are shooting back, unlike the targets at the range.

Unclejo
01-10-2007, 21:07
An orbital lance strike has an effective range of Boom your dead!

That said, the numbers of 40k have always seemed unrealistic to me, seeing as the IG in particular are portrayed as entering into wars across vast fronts. Whats the point when you can pacify a planet with a couple of ships?

Well the point is that futuristic bayonet charges are cool. Dumb as heck, but cool.