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View Full Version : 2questions regarding GW that i do not understand..



Marsekay
26-09-2007, 12:16
1: is it fair to say 40k is much more popular than warhammer? i was under the assumtion it was, so why therefore have they made an online game based on the fantasy setting? surely a 40k setting would have been massivly more popular and provided a better cost recoup?

2: i find that GW seem to think their target audience is kids, you know the ones, yet the prices indicate a target audience of adults and people in work, god knows how a kid can afford a single 12 mini let alone 12 for just a book or even 60 for one tank? to me its expensive but i CAN aford it, but i work,can these kids really afford this stuff? (if things go up much more i wont though as my moneys worth to much for me, Ebay trader discount already makes up for 90% of my purchasing and even then it seems expensive!)
It seems they need to focus their target on one or the other, cater more for adults or drop their prices for the kids...

Thias isnt a rant about prices just something i notice about how they target audiences....

Chaos and Evil
26-09-2007, 12:24
1- Fantasy MMOG's are easier to make. That said, they're working on a 40k MMOG.

2- Rich kids?

IJW
26-09-2007, 12:26
1. Yes, 40k is more popular. On the other hand, there is already a pretty successful 40k computer game.

2. Kids in their early teens potentially have more disposable income than I do. :( There are parents out there who will think nothing of 60 as a 'side' present on a birthday, afterall it's maybe 1-2 computer games and it's something physical that they can actually see.

Gazak Blacktoof
26-09-2007, 12:34
I wont comment on 2. this has been done to death already.

As to 1. 40K is largely unsuited to an MMO. Everything is imperium centric which would require the xenos and traitor elements to be playable against a world populated by loyal humans, bringing up all sorts of odd party groupings given the diversity of player classes/races. The other option would be for a player controlled imperium and a world populated by traitor and xenos factions.

As a xenos player I'd never buy the 2nd version of the game and the 1st is just all manner of weird.

Warhammer's borders are clearly defined and the races are far more even in terms of power and poulation for realm vs realm combat. Realm vs Realm (both groups as discussed above being playable) in 40K would either have to require the mapping of a signifacant part of the galaxy to work or would require awful background material where all the races are after a single system/ subsector. Gothic worked as there were only really 3 or 4 sides involved; orks, eldar and humans of both varieties.

40K also requires lots of levels of playability to be done well given that it encompasses space as well as aerial and land combat.

They might do a 40K MMOG at some point but if they shoe-horn all of the races in its going to be awful or wonderfully epic depending on the effort and resources they put in. Even splitting up the galaxy as they have done with the warhammer world would still require at a minimum 3 layers of deeply involved combat to work properly.

Any game based around 40K is going to be more planetside than a traditional RPG akin to DnD.

leonmallett
26-09-2007, 13:01
On a related note, Dark Heresy (Black Industries upcoming pen and paper 40K rpg) is going to be set in an isloated area of the galaxy. This helps define the background, providing parameters which contain it suitably as Gazak Blacktoof suggests for an online game. If a 40K mmorpg happened, I could see it being set on a single world or in a single system. At mosts sector level, but that sounds too ambitious to me.

Re: costs of the hobby. What is average 'pocket money'? 5-10 per week? That could be a combat squad every other week quite easily, a tactical squad or transport vehicle once a month quite easily.

scarletsquig
26-09-2007, 14:30
I got 5/week pocket money as an teenager and bought almost all of my stuff second-hand after the boxsets rose to 15 each. On the plus side, it got me into the habit of painting the models I did have to a really high standard, since I couldn't afford very many of them.

I guess if a kid's on 10/week pocket money, the hobby isn't too bad... combine it with a battleforce at christmas/ birthday and there's the potential to collect about 3 armies a year.

I'm guessing there's a lot of kids with 10/week pocket money at the moment, or GW would be screwed :P

Brother Loki
26-09-2007, 14:45
1. Warhammer online as it was originally conveived, was very much an online version of WFRP rather than WFB - the plans for it began shortly after Everquest came out, when there pretty much were only fantasy mmorgs. The old world is also much easier to set a RPG in as explained in the posts above. That said, THQ is working on a massively multiplayer 40k game, but I don't know if its a mmorpg or more a combat game. Personally I'm hoping for "Battlefield 4042". :)

2. Look at the other things kids these days buy - computer games, DVDs, mobile phones, trainers. GW has always aimed at middle class kids, who tend to have a fair amount of disposable income. They also rely on parents a lot. I don't know how much kids of 11-14 get as pocket money these days - when I was that age (late 80's) I got around 2.50 a week, which was incidentally roughly what a blister cost. I imagine these days its more like 5-10 per week on average, which is what the blisters tend to cost now.

Mikhaila
26-09-2007, 14:46
1. GW isn't make a fantasy computer game, they sold the liscense to someone who is making it. That company already made similar games. You'd have to ask the designers/heads of that companie, not GW.

2. KIDS don't buy anything. How many kids do you know with jobs. PARENTS buy the stuff. I had a father walk in yesterday and pre-order 750.00 worth of stuff for his kids for Apocalypse. No way his kids could earn that much in several summers, 12 year olds not being high wage earners.

Llew
26-09-2007, 16:19
Mainly, sci-fi games can be a bit tough to pull off. The scope of things the players expect (flying vehicles, tanks, etc.) add a huge level of complexity. Plus, the deadliness of futuristic weapons doesn't work as well in an MMORPG. ("Zap! You're dead!" just isn't as fun as "whackwhackwhackwhack
whackwhackwhackwhackwhackwhackwhackwhackwhackwhack whackwhack
whackwhackwhackwhackwhack! You're dead!")

Osbad
26-09-2007, 16:21
Would a 40k MMORPG be that different to a Halo one? Give troops enough armour and "bang you're dead" becomes "bangbangbangbangbangbang bangbangbangbangbangbangbang bangbangbangbangbangbangbang bangbangbangbangbangbang you're dead"...

Llew
26-09-2007, 20:40
I think FPS games are much closer the "bang, you're dead" style. Some weapons vaporize you with a shot. Some take a few as the armor saves you a bit.

The Hit Point model works better (if though not perfectly) in fantasy games. In a high-tech world, the defenses would be all about preventing an attack from getting to the chewy critter inside. Once the defenses fail, things would end pretty quickly. If I hit you with a sword, I can actually hurt you a bit without ever breaking the armor.

I mean, you can certainly design a game where you just change the weapon to a gun and keep the mechanics the same, but it doesn't "feel" right. If you get hit in the head with a rocket, you shouldn't have a head left. And that sorta thing isn't as fun to play in an MMORPG where you theoretically have to rationalize the characters' respawns.

spaint2k
27-09-2007, 06:19
If any of you have read the Inquisitor novels by Ian Watson, I think you might agree with me that THAT is the direction in which to take a 40K rpg. Dark, gritty, bizarre and full of the rich background that makes 40K so interesting.

Steve

spaint2k
27-09-2007, 06:22
I mean, you can certainly design a game where you just change the weapon to a gun and keep the mechanics the same, but it doesn't "feel" right. If you get hit in the head with a rocket, you shouldn't have a head left. And that sorta thing isn't as fun to play in an MMORPG where you theoretically have to rationalize the characters' respawns.

Technically of course, if I got hit in the head by a sword, I shouldn't have much of a head left either. In fact, getting hit anywhere with a sword is just as damaging as getting hit by a bullet or a rocket, although there might be more flopping around and gurgling involved before expiring.

Steve

Jedi152
27-09-2007, 08:50
A lot of kids do tend to rely on their parent money for GW stuff - i'd say that he majority of stuff brought is either by kids or buy parents for their kids.

Come on, when was the last time you met a kid without an iPod, PC in their room, electric guitar, console and tons of other stuff? 30-40 quid a month for models is nothing to them.

GW are cashing in on the fact that modern parents think love = money.

Max1mum
27-09-2007, 09:30
a quick answer to the MMORPG Question.

Thats very easy...it's not Games Workshop doing this.

It's a developer who -bought- the license to do this.
Games workshop just agreed...nothing more. Gamesworkshop hardly even markets it. The only thing it does is llooking over the shoulder of the developer to make sure they do the background justice.


And THQ bought the licences for a 40K MMORPG.

andyfair
27-09-2007, 09:41
GW are cashing in on the fact that modern parents think love = money.

Sorry I think that's rubbish. My son (12) got into 40k at the beginning of the year and we were delighted he got into a hobby that is (a) not computer game based, (b) has a good level of social interraction and (c) will hopefully steer him in the direction of not hanging about on the streets in the future. There are lots more plusses, this is just 3 examples.

He doesn't get pocket money as such but has been treated to various items during the year. He also has his own money which he always seeks our advice on before spending.

However the worst thing of all is that he & my wife have got me into the hobby and I am not as sensible. I have already splashed out loads of my WFB army (Orcs & Goblins) and I cannot resist the Chaos Space Marines any longer and will be buying the big set tonight. :evilgrin:

Osbad
27-09-2007, 09:49
However the worst thing of all is that he & my wife have got me into the hobby and I am not as sensible. I have already splashed out loads of my WFB army (Orcs & Goblins) and I cannot resist the Chaos Space Marines any longer and will be buying the big set tonight. :evilgrin:

Which is wonderful!

I do hope you realise though that you don't have to pay full RRP for GW stuff and that you can get 20% discount (or more) by buying from an internet retailer...

20% is a heck of a price to pay for the pleasure of walking home with that box under your arm....:cool:

Mad Doc Grotsnik
27-09-2007, 09:55
First of all, Fantasy is a more finite setting, which means an online Fantasy game is far more likely to meet expectations. a 40k one would be far harder to do justice to.

Next. GW do not treat children as their target audience. At all. I have worked for them. I know of the gaming pyramid, which starts with Noobs at the bottom, and then evolves it's way up to staff, getting thinner as it goes. Technically, I am the dream hobbyist, having traversed the entire Pyramid! But it's getting thenew blood up to competent, home gaming standards that we are meant to seek.

Jedi152
27-09-2007, 10:04
Sorry I think that's rubbish. My son (12) got into 40k at the beginning of the year and we were delighted he got into a hobby that is (a) not computer game based, (b) has a good level of social interraction and (c) will hopefully steer him in the direction of not hanging about on the streets in the future. There are lots more plusses, this is just 3 examples.

He doesn't get pocket money as such but has been treated to various items during the year. He also has his own money which he always seeks our advice on before spending.
Sorry, i didn't mean it as a universal rule - we all know the benefits of introducing young people to our hobby - in my (admittedly) limited experience it holds true. I know a quite a few parents who spoil their children rotten.

And i'm bitter too: Everything i've brought for my hobby was from my own pocket. And even then my mum ended up throwing loads of it away.

However the worst thing of all is that he & my wife have got me into the hobby and I am not as sensible. I have already splashed out loads of my WFB army (Orcs & Goblins) and I cannot resist the Chaos Space Marines any longer and will be buying the big set tonight. :evilgrin:
Welcome to the dark side...

leonmallett
27-09-2007, 11:57
Sorry I think that's rubbish. My son (12) got into 40k at the beginning of the year and we were delighted he got into a hobby that is (a) not computer game based, (b) has a good level of social interraction and (c) will hopefully steer him in the direction of not hanging about on the streets in the future. There are lots more plusses, this is just 3 examples.

He doesn't get pocket money as such but has been treated to various items during the year. He also has his own money which he always seeks our advice on before spending.

However the worst thing of all is that he & my wife have got me into the hobby and I am not as sensible. I have already splashed out loads of my WFB army (Orcs & Goblins) and I cannot resist the Chaos Space Marines any longer and will be buying the big set tonight. :evilgrin:

Surely a unique example of dad being drawn in by wife and son!

Mad Doc Grotsnik
27-09-2007, 12:01
You'd be surprised how many Dads get drawn in once their son gets properly involved.

After all, building a board, terrain etc.. makes for some serious Father/Son time! Which is another reason many parents are happy to fund a GW addicition!

andyfair
27-09-2007, 15:32
You'd be surprised how many Dads get drawn in once their son gets properly involved.

After all, building a board, terrain etc.. makes for some serious Father/Son time! Which is another reason many parents are happy to fund a GW addicition!

Exactly. And I never knew I had a latent talent for painting Goblins.

andyfair
27-09-2007, 15:38
Which is wonderful!

I do hope you realise though that you don't have to pay full RRP for GW stuff and that you can get 20% discount (or more) by buying from an internet retailer...

20% is a heck of a price to pay for the pleasure of walking home with that box under your arm....:cool:


I think it is far more important to support and enjoy my local store.

1. My son (& me) can go there whenever we want free of charge and play games for as long as we want. He belongs to the local store club (free) and attends special events and Sunday club (all free)

2. If I buy off the internet, I don't get the patter and discussion about my purchase from the store staff.

3. My store needs to up its sales in order to (hopefully) convert its upstairs into a gaming room, so I am happy to support this.

I honestly believe that if you are an active visitor and participator at your local store the hobby is very good value for money. The buy in cost is high but you get so much for no cost at all. I can't think of any other club where you don't pay an entry or subscription fee.

Sai-Lauren
27-09-2007, 15:45
1: is it fair to say 40k is much more popular than warhammer? i was under the assumtion it was, so why therefore have they made an online game based on the fantasy setting? surely a 40k setting would have been massivly more popular and provided a better cost recoup?

Maybe, but considering all anyone wanted to play in the Star Wars MMORPG is Jedi, all anyone would want to play in a 40k one is Marines.



2: i find that GW seem to think their target audience is kids, you know the ones, yet the prices indicate a target audience of adults and people in work, god knows how a kid can afford a single 12 mini let alone 12 for just a book or even 60 for one tank? to me its expensive but i CAN aford it, but i work,can these kids really afford this stuff? (if things go up much more i wont though as my moneys worth to much for me, Ebay trader discount already makes up for 90% of my purchasing and even then it seems expensive!)
It seems they need to focus their target on one or the other, cater more for adults or drop their prices for the kids...

Thias isnt a rant about prices just something i notice about how they target audiences....
Ah, I see the confusion.
Their target audience isn't kids, it's kids parents.;)

Mad Doc Grotsnik
27-09-2007, 15:45
Indeed. The Hobby is what you make of the offerings.

However, not everyone has the convenience of a local GW store, and some don't have a local Indy, in which case, by all means buy the cheapest you can find.

For your everyday gaming needs, up to the odd new squad or tank, please please please use your local store. IF your looking at a new army set or other major purchase, at least consider your local store. WIthout your sales, they may not be around long.

Osbad
27-09-2007, 15:54
I think it is far more important to support and enjoy my local store.

1. My son (& me) can go there whenever we want free of charge and play games for as long as we want. He belongs to the local store club (free) and attends special events and Sunday club (all free)

...etc.

Fair does. If you play in-store then it makes sense to patronise them as you are clearly getting quid pro quo. An honest dollar for an honest day's work and all.

Just as long as you are aware what you are paying for is all.

Personally I don't game in-store so I don't see why I shouldn't get my stuff as cheaply as possible - there's no purpose to my paying to subsidise a service that is of little use to me, and I prefer to see as much of GW's 70% mark-up stays in my own pocket as possible :D.

TheNephew
27-09-2007, 16:49
Being a UK collector (no a longer a gamer, for reasons following) I have a problem getting a board to play on in any store.
I can't make my local's club night due to other commitments, so I've tried a few times to get a board in-store to play a game. Due to the sheer number of tweens demanding exhibiton and demo games, me and one friend who I attempted this with a couple of times were relegated to the smallest table, for (if I remember correctly) 90 minutes. We were told (very politely) that if we hadn't finished by then it was quite likely we would have to pack up anyway because that was when the next regular rush of kids tended to arrive ( post-lunchtime).
I was not amused.
I have no local games stores with gaming facilities, and the few times I have met and talked to another gamer over the age of 18 in-store, they have said they only really come to buy things occasionally, rarely to play, because even the club night was becoming infested with kids playing Ultramarines.

leonmallett
27-09-2007, 17:00
Being a UK collector (no a longer a gamer, for reasons following) I have a problem getting a board to play on in any store.
I can't make my local's club night due to other commitments, so I've tried a few times to get a board in-store to play a game. Due to the sheer number of tweens demanding exhibiton and demo games, me and one friend who I attempted this with a couple of times were relegated to the smallest table, for (if I remember correctly) 90 minutes. We were told (very politely) that if we hadn't finished by then it was quite likely we would have to pack up anyway because that was when the next regular rush of kids tended to arrive ( post-lunchtime).
I was not amused.
I have no local games stores with gaming facilities, and the few times I have met and talked to another gamer over the age of 18 in-store, they have said they only really come to buy things occasionally, rarely to play, because even the club night was becoming infested with kids playing Ultramarines.

Is there a gaming club in your area - that may be the way to go.

Your siutation does highlight the difficulty that stores face in catering to new and veteran gamers alike with finite space and resources.

heretics bane
27-09-2007, 17:56
Being a UK collector (no a longer a gamer, for reasons following) I have a problem getting a board to play on in any store.
I can't make my local's club night due to other commitments, so I've tried a few times to get a board in-store to play a game. Due to the sheer number of tweens demanding exhibiton and demo games, me and one friend who I attempted this with a couple of times were relegated to the smallest table, for (if I remember correctly) 90 minutes. We were told (very politely) that if we hadn't finished by then it was quite likely we would have to pack up anyway because that was when the next regular rush of kids tended to arrive ( post-lunchtime).
I was not amused.
I have no local games stores with gaming facilities, and the few times I have met and talked to another gamer over the age of 18 in-store, they have said they only really come to buy things occasionally, rarely to play, because even the club night was becoming infested with kids playing Ultramarines.

Diddoe here, ever since GW NE have started powerselling the place is full of annoying children all taking up table space and painting space and all playing marines, and its spread to the Vets night aswell