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mistformsquirrel
26-09-2007, 13:39
Who do you think was the single greatest strategist and/or tactician of all time? Anyone at all from any race.

LexxBomb
26-09-2007, 13:56
either the Emperor or Eldrad.

maybe Tzeench

fengor
26-09-2007, 14:05
I'd go with Eldrad

followed secondly by my Farseer Faolan (pronounced Fey-lawn) from my own Craftworld ;p

ArtificerArmour
26-09-2007, 14:24
Usarker Creed, When you got Imperial Guard, make Imperial Guardade.

Noserenda
26-09-2007, 14:35
Id say the most sucessful we've seen would be Macharius, or possibly Abbadon...

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
26-09-2007, 14:43
I would have to agree with Macharius.

Over a 1000 worlds in 7 years is kind of impressive.

I wouldn't include the Emperor because... well he's the 'God' Emperor of the Imperium. The Emperor had a much more successful campaign, but I don't know if that was because of his tactical genius or that of his creations (the Astrates).

CaptainSenioris
26-09-2007, 14:45
Warmaster Horus before he went loopy that is...

Beats the Lord Solar with his 7 worlds in 1000 years gibberish

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
26-09-2007, 15:25
Horus was a heretic and traitor. His name is stricken from the records.

Macharius ftw!

ViewFinder
26-09-2007, 15:26
I'd go with good old yet late Eldrad since he could see what was coming quite far in the future, aside hisown death but thats another story, is quite good reference when comes to tactics and strategies...

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
26-09-2007, 15:43
I will elaborate so you can see the error of your decisions.

Horus was a tactical genius, but I credit the Emperor with that for creating him. Horus had victory in his hands with his assault on Terra. He was just foolish and lowered his shields. That allowed the Emperor to board and cut the head from the snake of the rebellion and send the rest of the traitors fleeing.

Eldrad is probably the most famous leader of the dying race. It's like being the captain of a losing team. You maybe an all-star, but at the end of the day you are still a loser. He may have put events into motion to slow their crawl to extinction, but they are still the dieing race of 40k. With him dead, I think that eliminates him from this competition.

Macharius maybe dead as well, but that is from old age and not from any tactical blunders in the field. Horus may have conquored more planets, but he had Astrates in legion behind him and many more years to do it. Macharius had Imperial Guard!

Rockerfella
26-09-2007, 15:56
Eldrad is probably the most famous leader of the dying race. It's like being the captain of a losing team. You maybe an all-star, but at the end of the day you are still a loser. He may have put events into motion to slow their crawl to extinction, but they are still the dieing race of 40k. With him dead, I think that eliminates him from this competition!

This argument never ceases to amaze me. Sorry, I have to jump in on this one.

Firstly, being a dying race does not automatically make one a loser, and therefore by default out of said competition.

The Eldar may be 'dying' by Imperial standards, but numerically they're probably more populous than many of us actually believe. I've seen this argument many many times, and my response is always usually this:

Define 'dying race'. Germany by definition is a dying race, but they're still the third largest economy on the planet. By that same definition, so is the UK, but again, the UK is the 4th largest economy in the world. This is all about perspective in all fairness.

The Eldar of the 41st millenium are dying in relation to the position they were in ten thousand years ago. One must always remember that while placing the Eldar in the context of the time one must also compare them to their former glory. The Eldar are dying by their own standards, and are nothing compared to the trillions that once populated the galaxy. That dose NOT mean to say that there aren't still 4 billion Eldar left in the galaxy. Or hundreds and hundreds of million Eldar floating around. That said, they can't truly be classed as dying until they can't collectivley survive as a species. They do that perfectly well.

:)

That said, sure, Eldrad was an amazing general. I'm sure Yriel is his superior when it comes to tactical genius and what not.

Horus, yup. He was awesome too.

An Avatar of Khaine (in the old version of the game) had the highest strategy rating of any character. So, that leads me to believe that Kaela Mensha Khaine had a pretty consumate understanding of the art of war. Being a war god and all. Or am I not allowed a god here? :P

Cheers!

Luthien
26-09-2007, 16:02
Hooray for Rockerfeller champion of the pro-eldar argument
And i'm gonna go with Horus, i know it's sort of a given but still, you have to admit he was really good at his job

DonKarst0n
26-09-2007, 16:09
Marcharius FTW!!!

Try taking a thousand worlds with the IG!!!
Horus had a easy game with thousands of Space Marines he could send into battle.

stormblade
26-09-2007, 16:56
Horus wasn't all that competent, many of his brothers were even more strategically gifted than he was- he was made leader just because he was the daddy's precious little boy, not because of his competence to win and lead. (Also he took credit for many victories won by other primarchs, that is why Corax disliked him)

the best tactician: Yarrick or perhaps some tau dude- I don't know.

The Guy
26-09-2007, 17:01
I'm going with Yarrick..He had what? A few regiments of guardsmen? And how many orks did he hold out of Hades Hive?

Vaulkhar
26-09-2007, 17:29
I'll vote for Eldrad. Going by Sun-Tzu's measures (winning without fighting, winning then fighting, know thy enemy, etc, etc) his handling of Thraka was masterful.


Unless you're living on Armageddon, in which case it left quite a bit to be desired.

Noserenda
26-09-2007, 17:53
Id discount seers from the category of strategist, knowing the future is kinda cheating compared to a general good enough to predict it without psychic goobiness...

That ofc still makes seers damn good leaders, just not strategists...

Tyron
26-09-2007, 17:59
The Emperor, everything he did, building the Imperium, gathering resources to make the Primarchs, uniting Terra and Mars together, and much much more reuqired tactics. All fro a single being.

Terrordar
26-09-2007, 18:05
I'd say Abaddon is FAR from the best general, he's had about 10x the amount of time as Horus, and he hasn't done anything too significant save capture the Black Fortresses and be a jerk :P

In my opinion it would have to be Yriel or the Emperor himself.

DonKarst0n
26-09-2007, 18:15
You mean Abaddon, right?
Yeah pretty much is a choleric person... but one with three black fortresses. :eek:

Terrordar
26-09-2007, 18:17
Yes, thank you, edited. Just woke up -.-

The Guy
26-09-2007, 18:22
I'd say Abaddon is FAR from the best general, he's had about 10x the amount of time as Horus, and he hasn't done anything too significant save capture the Black Fortresses and be a jerk :P


And he achieved the most ridiculous hair in the milky way ;)

SonofUltramar
26-09-2007, 18:38
Greatest tactician/strategist, going to go out on a limb here and say Roboute Guilliman. He carved out his own little empire which is still standing after 10,000 years, not to mention the whole Codex thing, Ultramarines and Big Rob FTW:D

Green-is-best
26-09-2007, 19:01
Usarker Creed, When you got Imperial Guard, make Imperial Guardade.

That was spit out my drink funny! :D

DonKarst0n
26-09-2007, 19:11
Ultramarines and Big Rob FTW

Smurfs are not allowed in a best-general ranking.:angel:

DrDoom
26-09-2007, 19:59
Horus. Macharius was a ponce.

LexxBomb
27-09-2007, 03:43
well what about Lionel Johnson- I belive he was regarded as the greatest tactical and stratigic thinkers of the primarchs

Kandarin
27-09-2007, 04:45
All I have to say is...

"It could be you!"

Devil-Tears
27-09-2007, 04:52
Horus wasn't all that competent, many of his brothers were even more strategically gifted than he was- he was made leader just because he was the daddy's precious little boy, not because of his competence to win and lead. (Also he took credit for many victories won by other primarchs, that is why Corax disliked him)


That may be true, but Horus was much more a strategist in another sense. I mean, he managed to convince half of the Emperor's army to fight for him. He's like the Stalin of 40k, able to maneuver himself into power by knowing the minds of his brothers.

Anyways, my vote goes to either Yarrik or Ghazkull (sp?) I mean, one held by entire waves of death by having only guys with flash lights, and the other was able to coordinate the universe's most chaotic species into a machine of death. You just gotta give credit for that.

TheMartyr451
27-09-2007, 04:59
My vote goes for the Emperor. Enough said.

azrael22
27-09-2007, 05:06
This may seem IG bias, but if given 2 votes, i'd say St. Macharius and Commissar Yarrick. When faced with aliens, and superhumans, being able to work wonders with common men and women armed with common weaponry is tactical genius. Not just military, but social and political genius also.

RainbowKittens
27-09-2007, 05:18
Hive Mind. We've devoured countless known, and UNKNOWN worlds. Stripped planets of all life in a matter of days. Took out a few SMurf Chapters, Successfully scouted worthey planets, while remaining completely undetected for centuries before a main attack.

Terra is next.
Tyranids shall devour all.
Nuff Said. :evilgrin:

Kamizanate
27-09-2007, 05:19
Gork and Mork

I'd say that the Orks, out of all the races, have the most fun and are overall the happiest.

azrael22
27-09-2007, 05:24
Alright, fine.

Brutal Cunning and Cunning Brutality pretty much covers all the bases too.

Smishkun
27-09-2007, 05:28
Firstly, being a dying race does not automatically make one a loser, and therefore by default out of said competition.

Lol, yes it does.(sorry you seem to really love Eldar and all) Big time actually.

Also I discount farseers, the Emperor, gods, etc. Because they all have inhuman means with which to employ "strategery" (snl anyone, anyone?)

Im not sure on this but wasnt Alpharius pretty good in a strategic sense, or were his strategies just complex not necissarily "best"? I cant remember where but I read that he employs a huge number of tactics to achieve his goals.

As for who I would say is best, id probably go with Tarvitz/Loken, anyone? anyone? (Holding 4 legions back for 6 months with like 20 guys with broken bonding knives) -jk thats just the HH books talking.

Seriously though id say hmmm, A tie between Ghengis.. I mean Jahakatataki Khan, Dorn and some random guy everyone else can choose because tons of people rock.

Chilltouch
27-09-2007, 06:01
Either...
Macharius
OR...
Insert particular Autarch here.

Autarches are the greatest leaders and tacticians that the Eldar have. And seeing the rate that Eldar minds function at and the fact many of their kind have some form of clairvoyency (and I don't care how well that's spelt), unless luck goes agaist them, chances are they win.

stormblade
27-09-2007, 11:49
That may be true, but Horus was much more a strategist in another sense. I mean, he managed to convince half of the Emperor's army to fight for him. He's like the Stalin of 40k, able to maneuver himself into power by knowing the minds of his brothers.


- That makes him a good politician, not a good military commander.

THE CHIEF
27-09-2007, 12:43
The Lion. seriously. Farseers/gods/the emperor don't count, and the Lion really beats Marcharius. No contest.

Gwwwargh
27-09-2007, 13:01
Any Ork Warboss anywhere... not only cuz there biggest and das the best but because that havent lost yet... They just coming back for round... I dunno what round there on, but its up there and you get the point by now

honestly I cant really decide whos the best but just about everyone people have listed so far has been great... on second thought Id say Ghazkull but as you can tell from what I wrote above that’s my highly biased opnion...

Wolflord Havoc
27-09-2007, 13:07
I would say that it has to be Roboute Guilliman - after all 10 millenia after his 'demise' his great treatise on everything from Bolter Drill to Organisation and Logistics is still used as the core training document for officers of the Imperial Guard etc and the Majority of the Imperiums Space Marines.

You can keep your 13 Black Crusades and stalemate battles on Armeggedon, for the work of Guilliman has laid a large part of the foundation on which humanity has survived the previous 10K.

Courage and honour! Courage and honour!

Rockerfella
27-09-2007, 17:49
Lol, yes it does. :eyebrows: Well, no, it dosen't. The dying race thing is pretty much irrelevant to the argument as a whole. Your mind is, however, clearly made up on the matter, so i'll not say anymore after this post. The thing to remember is (as i've said earlier) the UK is, by your definiton at least, a dying 'race/culture'. With that in mind, who's really going to stand on the UK's toes when it decides enoughs enough and wants to fight someone? Why on earth should the Eldar be discounted from this thread just because (with a population of however many hundreds of millions upon millions) their death rate exceeds their birth rate? What a pathetic, borderline ludicrous anti Eldar statement to make. Its like saying historical German generals should be discounted from a 'Who was the best general ever' discussion just because their current death rate exceeds birth rate. Rot. Thats said, its not that simple.
(sorry you seem to really love Eldar and all) Big time actually. Even if I did, would that be a problem for you? Be honest now.... ;) I'm sorry you see it that way and seem obliged to comment in the way you did. If i were you, i'd spend more time thinking of evidence to back up your comments, instead of using simple supposition and flaccid back handed insults. ;)


Also I discount farseers, the Emperor, gods, etc. Because they all have inhuman means with which to employ "strategery" (snl anyone, anyone?) Really? But how do you expect an Alien race to employ tactics? They are, by definition, 'inhuman', because they're NOT human. This to you, is an 'Imperium only' best ever thread is it? Or is it more a 'well, we'll only consider races that use 'human strategies and techniques because that suits my argument better' type of thing? Seriously, be honest... what kind of Alien is going to employ conventional human tactics in war?


Seriously though id say hmmm, A tie between Ghengis.. I mean Jahakatataki Khan, Dorn and some random guy everyone else can choose because tons of people rock. Ahh, this is more like it! Why am I not suprised to see a purely Imperial based list from you! ;) So, you're saying Dorn or Khan are the greatest tactical minds the galaxy has ever known?

Anyways, jesting aside! As for human commanders, sure.. i remember reading too that the Lion was pretty much the Wizards sleeves (even if he is slightly inhuman...). You can't count Horus out. He was the tactical genius that carried on the Crusade after the Emperor fobbed off. Yarrick of course, i'd forgotten about him. Although, didn't Thraka hand him a loss at one point? Or a few? I can't rightly remember.

Personally, i'd still go with Yriel/Horus.

stormblade
27-09-2007, 19:29
Personally, i'd still go with Yriel/Horus.

I seem to have some holes in my fluff but aside from helping Yanned(sp.) What did Yriel do?

No really I'm asking because I don't know.

Gobskrag 'Eadbasha
27-09-2007, 19:35
Ghazkull Thrakka because he transcended his Orky nature and actually used tactics. Also because green is best.

Sekhmet
27-09-2007, 21:47
The Deceiver. No contest?

I'd second Ghazkull as 2nd though.

Devil-Tears
28-09-2007, 04:01
I seem to have some holes in my fluff but aside from helping Yanned(sp.) What did Yriel do?

No really I'm asking because I don't know.

Well, he coordinated the Iyaden (sp?) navy before he got exiled, and supposedly, the Iyaden had one of the most powerful fleet in the universe. This is, of course, before the tyranids obliterated the navy, though Yriel did come back in time to beat them off.

Hive Mind 33
28-09-2007, 04:07
the Ork warlords because they never loose. Or the Hive Mind They "beat use like that lets evolve this and that lets go get em."

Smishkun
28-09-2007, 05:12
:eyebrows: Well, no, it dosen't. The dying race thing is pretty much irrelevant to the argument as a whole. Your mind is, however, clearly made up on the matter, so i'll not say anymore after this post. The thing to remember is (as i've said earlier) the UK is, by your definiton at least, a dying 'race/culture'. With that in mind, who's really going to stand on the UK's toes when it decides enoughs enough and wants to fight someone? Why on earth should the Eldar be discounted from this thread just because (with a population of however many hundreds of millions upon millions) their death rate exceeds their birth rate? What a pathetic, borderline ludicrous anti Eldar statement to make. Its like saying historical German generals should be discounted from a 'Who was the best general ever' discussion just because their current death rate exceeds birth rate. Rot. Thats said, its not that simple. Even if I did, would that be a problem for you? Be honest now.... ;) I'm sorry you see it that way and seem obliged to comment in the way you did. If i were you, i'd spend more time thinking of evidence to back up your comments, instead of using simple supposition and flaccid back handed insults. ;)

Really? But how do you expect an Alien race to employ tactics? They are, by definition, 'inhuman', because they're NOT human. This to you, is an 'Imperium only' best ever thread is it? Or is it more a 'well, we'll only consider races that use 'human strategies and techniques because that suits my argument better' type of thing? Seriously, be honest... what kind of Alien is going to employ conventional human tactics in war?

Ahh, this is more like it! Why am I not suprised to see a purely Imperial based list from you! ;) So, you're saying Dorn or Khan are the greatest tactical minds the galaxy has ever known?

Anyways, jesting aside! As for human commanders, sure.. i remember reading too that the Lion was pretty much the Wizards sleeves (even if he is slightly inhuman...). You can't count Horus out. He was the tactical genius that carried on the Crusade after the Emperor fobbed off. Yarrick of course, i'd forgotten about him. Although, didn't Thraka hand him a loss at one point? Or a few? I can't rightly remember.

Personally, i'd still go with Yriel/Horus.

1-Nobody is saying Britain or Germany are dieing. At least im not and have never made such claims.
2-I meant inhuman as unnatural, inhuman from a RL perspective, sorry for your misunderstanding.
3-Dont insult me, as I didnt insult you.
4-Im glad you like the eldar and all, but it was obvious as to your bias which is why I addressed the point in the first place, thank you for exacerbating that fact.
5-Im not bais towards the imperium because of some fanboy syndrom but in my opinon they have the best strategists, as they currently enjoy the greatest portion of the milky way.
6-Thank you for your condescending reaction to a light-hearted post.

Dieing makes you a loser, but it doesnt necessarily make you a bad strategist.
I do however extend to you an A for effort.

Noserenda
28-09-2007, 06:44
Id discount Yriel and Yarrick.

Yarrick because he was a great Leader, psychologist and Charismatic force, he didnt so much plan the defence of hades as much as boost the defenders to where they could win, witness his campaign on Gologtha which went tits up spectacularly (If thats offical fluff anymore, it does involve squats after all).

Yriel because lets face it, his finest moment wasnt because of any particular genius, more guilt that he had wandered off with the best part of Iyandens navy just as the Tyranids were attacking... He got lauded principally because he was there with a large group of loyal soldiers presumably. Maybe if he hadnt wandered off in a sulk Iyanden wouldnt have been so mashed in?

So im still fixed on Macharius, who didnt need a Legion of Marines to win :p
(Secondly Johnson, aknowledged greatest strategist amongst the Primarchs)

Smishkun
28-09-2007, 07:05
What were some of the lion's strategic gems for him to be the best strategist among the primarchs? (Also where are his deeds recorded, Ive not read any before)

Griffin
28-09-2007, 07:11
Horus wasn't all that competent, many of his brothers were even more strategically gifted than he was- he was made leader just because he was the daddy's precious little boy, not because of his competence to win and lead. (Also he took credit for many victories won by other primarchs, that is why Corax disliked him)

the best tactician: Yarrick or perhaps some tau dude- I don't know.

Untrue - Horus was lauded for his Tactical Mastery on many occasions. What was it, oh yes, wielding the Legions like a lesser tactician would wield individual squads or troops on the battlefield.

Sure the legions where massive, but if you take in to consideration the Logistics management to get said legions in place at the right time, then Horus isn't that bad himself.

He allso used peacefull solutions instead of just HULK SMASH

Best Tacticians:

Yarrick - overwhelmed, unsupplied - He did a very good job.

Macharius, the lord Solar - 1000 Planets in 7 Years is excellent with only guard.

Yriel - Helping to save iyanden as well as his pre-emptive stirkes against enemies without taking many casualties.

Shrike - Operating behind enemy lines for years at a time, takes a great deal of skill and planning.

The Emperor - nuff said

Eldrad - yes and no, the future sight helped, so don't know how much he actually knew before hand, and how much he actually planned/fought.

Alpharius - forgot about him, Probably the most overlooked primarch. His tactics are wow, even when he "lost" versus roboute, he proved his tactics where superior. Roboute had to break his own tactical doctrines to fight Alpharius.

Witchfire
28-09-2007, 07:14
i have to go with alpharius and tzeentch

destroyerlord
28-09-2007, 08:20
I would vote Yarrick for the Imperials. His efforts on Armageddon were masterful, and he is just a lowly human!
Whilst being an excellent leader of the eldar, and probably the most pro-active in attempting to save his species and help fight both chaos and the ancient c'tan, I would not vote for Eldrad as a greater tactician. as a strategist however he probably takes the cake. The difference being that while Eldrad sees the bigger picture, many generals/autarchs/chaos lords/orc warbosses could probably outdo him on the battlefield.

zealot!
28-09-2007, 08:27
Eldrads not dead 'till I see a body.

Sideros Peltarion
28-09-2007, 08:57
Easily Alpharius. Come on he attacked a city fortress garrisonned by over a million men, killing over 90% for only a few marines. And then on Eskrador he whooped the Ultramarines, even faking his own death. And he also stopped Hive Fleet Kracken when it invaded the Ultramar system, and who knows what else.:evilgrin:
He is Marneus Calgar don't you know ;)

SonofUltramar
28-09-2007, 09:39
Easily Alpharius. Come on he attacked a city fortress garrisonned by over a million men, killing over 90% for only a few marines. And then on Eskrador he whooped the Ultramarines, even faking his own death. And he also stopped Hive Fleet Kracken when it invaded the Ultramar system, and who knows what else.:evilgrin:
He is Marneus Calgar don't you know ;)

Well if you can fake having your head cut off then all power to him, Alpharius was an upstart and was constantly seeking acceptance from the other Primarchs, face it he was the runt of the litter;)

Sideros Peltarion
28-09-2007, 10:04
Well so would anyone in his situation. Just because he owned your primarch.;) (just kidding)
I just find that he had a very flexible approach to warfare, always had a back up plan and if something new came along his tactics would evolve to meet them. Like the Isvaan drop site massacre was his plan apparently. Then you get Robute Guilliman who was basically a bit of a nob. :D Thinking he was the greatest leader in the Imperium and forcing everyone else to fight how he wanted them to. The Codex Astartes is a bad thing for the Imperium. It is good that he split up the Legions, but it is better to be able to adapt in the way of the Alpha Legion than have to fit in line with a book written 11,000 years before when the Tyranids etc weren't in the galaxy. I cant remember who it was, but wasn't there an Ultramarine Captain kicked out of the chapter or something because he destroyed a Norn Queen, going against what the Codex Astartes said. And we all know how much trouble they had to get the Tyrranic Wars Veterans organised when any other Legion would have said yes straight away.:p
Alpharius>Guilliman

LexxBomb
28-09-2007, 13:42
What were some of the lion's strategic gems for him to be the best strategist among the primarchs? (Also where are his deeds recorded, Ive not read any before)

the lions victories arent given to us but he was regarded as being the greatest stategist by the primarchs.
the Emperor probably couldn't make him warmaster because he didn't trust ANY one and no one trusted him.

LexxBomb
28-09-2007, 13:47
I cant remember who it was, but wasn't there an Ultramarine Captain kicked out of the chapter or something because he destroyed a Norn Queen, going against what the Codex Astartes said. And we all know how much trouble they had to get the Tyrranic Wars Veterans organised when any other Legion would have said yes straight away.:p
Alpharius>Guilliman

Uriel Ventris
captain of the 3rd Battle Company ( or was it 2nd)
the new Ultramarine character has taken his place.
Funny enough - Calgar wanted Uriel as his successor and hopes he will return to the chapter after his mission in the eye of terror is complete.

Sideros Peltarion
28-09-2007, 14:34
Oh yes, that was him. Was his replacement the Medusa campaign guy then?
Oh and back on topic, I think a mention should be given to Commander Farsight. What a dude he is. The only Tau I like. lol
If I played Tau, it would have to be Farsight Enclaves.:cool:

Lord-Gen Bale Chambers
28-09-2007, 14:38
Time for some more Imperial Propaganda:

Thraka: He had one goal and that was to take Armageddon. He failed, therefore I don't think we can count him. For a xeno and ork though, I think he was top notch.

Alpharius: You'll have to see my previous comment about Horus, but basically he is a traitor and the Inquisition has removed his name from this conversation.

Macharius ftw!

:)

Rockerfella
28-09-2007, 16:48
1-Nobody is saying Britain or Germany are dieing. At least im not and have never made such claims. Sorry for your misunderstanding. My point was to use evidence here to expose how ridiculous your argument and position is. :)

2- sorry for your misunderstanding. Apology accepted. May I however remind you that changing the goal posts thus does little to enhance your already rather delicate position here.

3-Dont insult me, as I didnt insult you. Well, wrong. You made all manner of daft half baked comments about me being an 'Eldar lover'. If you don't want to come across 'Eldar lovers', take your business elswhere. Also, be careful my friend, lest you hang yourself from your own noose.

4-Im glad you like the eldar and all, but it was obvious as to your bias which is why I addressed the point in the first place, thank you for exacerbating that fact. Said like a true Fanbuoy!

5-Im not bais towards the imperium because of some fanboy syndrom but in my opinon they have the best strategists, as they currently enjoy the greatest portion of the milky way. That dosen't follow really though. Just because they have the biggest portion of the galaxy does not mean they have the best strategists. It means that have the bigger guns, numbers and ships etc, by a country mile.

6-Thank you for your condescending reaction to a light-hearted post. You're very welcome, i'm here all week. May I also point out that (since you're a relatively new poster) if you wish not to recieve replies such as mine, then think about what you're saying and how you're coming across. Your comments, to me at least, were not light hearted.


Dieing makes you a loser, but it doesnt necessarily make you a bad strategist.
I do however extend to you an A for effort.

Dying does not make one a loser, it makes you dying. It most certainly shouldn't exclude you from being in a 'top general' list just because your death rate exceeds birth rate, not that its that simple. If you want to froth anymore, and churn vitriol all over the thread, please PM me and we'll have a chat in private.

Cheers.

Infallius_Daemonium
28-09-2007, 17:49
A commander of men, or anything, does the best job he can with the tools laid out before him. That is why I pick Macharius, because he had the Imperial Guard.

Not the agile, intelligent, accurate, psychic, etc etc Eldar,

Not the neverending hordes all indefinately controlled by one mastermind (a huge advantage by itself) Tyranids,

Not the super-human incredibly armed and armored Astartes,

Not the magical star gods C'Tan,

And so on,

But average humans. Average humans in large numbers with vehicles, but still inferior to nearly all other established races in the galaxy of Warhammer 40,000, yet they still fight and they still win.

Rockerfella
28-09-2007, 17:51
A commander of men, or anything, does the best job he can with the tools laid out before him. That is why I pick Macharius, because he had the Imperial Guard.

Not the agile, intelligent, accurate, psychic, etc etc Eldar,

Not the neverending hordes all indefinately controlled by one mastermind (a huge advantage by itself) Tyranids,

Not the super-human incredibly armed and armored Astartes,

Not the magical star gods C'Tan,

And so on,

But average humans. Average humans in large numbers with vehicles, but still inferior to nearly all other established races in the galaxy of Warhammer 40,000, yet they still fight and they still win.

See? Thats a good post.

Of course, lets not forget the real reason they win. Because GW says so and wouldn't have it any other way. Except, of course, when they lose. :p

cheers!

Infallius_Daemonium
28-09-2007, 18:08
See? Thats a good post.

Of course, lets not forget the real reason they win. Because GW says so and wouldn't have it any other way.

Well of course! It would be quite a silly game if anyone else had as large a say about what's what.

Rockerfella
28-09-2007, 18:31
You mean, like the supposed campaigns, where the 'people' decide the outcome, but the result is always the same?

Sorry, i'm a cynic at heart.

:P

Smishkun
28-09-2007, 18:31
Rockerfella, your seeing the shadows in everything I say. Time after time ive explained to you why ive said what and still you consider it venom whilst flinging bile from your jabbering fang-filled maw the entire time.

The amount of flaws in your logic is astounding, as is your confrontational responses, your general distaste for me(while apologizing for saying what i had to say in first place out of sympathy), and overall staggering levels of ignorance. Which all lead me to believe you dont really understand this topic at all, and would rather just pick at me.

So therefore, PM me if you want to continue this, because I see no reason not to defend myself on this topic from a general lack of respect that is unwarranted. I wont have everything I say turned around simply because you dislike me, so PM me if you want to continue this personally.

Secondly, to continue this topic, where has it been stated that the Lion is the best among the primarchs? Ive heard from a number of sources hes considered so but cant find any literature on the subject. Also I think that each of the Primarchs all demonstrate a particular style of battle that was definetly beneficial to their aims, and also I found it interesting to see that each loyalist primarch more or less had a counterpart on the tratior side of the equation. (Khan and Night Haunter for instance favor the blitzkrieg style, and Dorn and Peturabo were opposites[also I found it odd in the HH books they describe Horus as the 'ultimate attacker', yet Peturabo favors siege engines and the like, I suppose they just considered him lesser? or was it the Imperial Fists' general dislike for the Iron Warriors that left them out of that discussion?]).

Tiznoodles.

Rockerfella
28-09-2007, 19:04
Rockerfella, your seeing the shadows in everything I say. Time after time ive explained to you why ive said what and still you consider it venom whilst flinging bile from your jabbering fang-filled maw the entire time. I like that, can i borrow it for the nxt time I insult someone who deserves it? Remember youth, that with several comments i've made i've said them with a smile. That means i'm not really having a go at you. Take that as you will.


The amount of flaws in your logic is astounding, Such as? Examples please. When you make a statement like that, it helps if you can back it up.
your general distaste for me(while apologizing for saying what i had to say in first place out of sympathy) Utterly laughable really. How on earth can I dislike someone I don't know? Thats not something I personally do and or advocate..
and overall staggering levels of ignorance. Which all lead me to believe you dont really understand this topic at all, and would rather just pick at me. I'll round it up for you. What I don't like is the way you immediately, with little or NO evidence to really substantiate your position, declared (using the royal we) that the Eldar or Eldar generals weren't able to be listed because they were a) Losers? and b) A dying race. That, sunbeam, is what I dislike. Its an utterly ridiculous and frankly weak argument from someone who clearly just dosen't want any other name in said list other than an imperial one. Are we clear?


So therefore, PM me if you want to continue this I don't think I will. Its up to you really to see where this goes. I'm off for a chinese with my Ladyfriend. I've also got a large assignment for my teaching degree to think about, all of which poses a much bigger challenge than trading blows with you good sir.
because I see no reason not to defend myself on this topic from a general lack of respect that is unwarranted. Absolutely, always, always, always defend yourself! Keep it up! ;)
I wont have everything I say turned around simply because you dislike me, so PM me if you want to continue this personally. And why should you? I'm turning everything around on you not because I dislike you (and the fact you actually think that reveals much about your emotiional maturity, to me at least) but because most of it is utter dross, drivel and ditritus. Its nothing to do with your character, I promise. :)




Secondly, to continue this topic, where has it been stated that the Lion is the best among the primarchs? Ive heard from a number of sources hes considered so but cant find any literature on the subject. Me neither, but, like you, i've heard it mentioned many many times. I'm not sure if this is a fan driven thing, or actually has some 'historical' foundation as such in fluff or what not.
Also I think that each of the Primarchs all demonstrate a particular style of battle that was definetly beneficial to their aims, and also I found it interesting to see that each loyalist primarch more or less had a counterpart on the tratior side of the equation. They sure did. Some were simple beserkers really. ANGRON and to a lesser degree Russ.

Obermotz
28-09-2007, 19:20
well you could always state that eldrad is a dick..

downundercadet07
28-09-2007, 19:30
It is hard to say since we know so little about them and their overall plan, but I would say that it could possibly one of the old ones. Where others fashion the mundane into weapons of war, they breathed life into things and made entire species into weapons. Although not a tactic, as a strategy, it shows some genius even outside of it's obvious demonstration of technical or magical ability.

And ober, I believe that Eldrad is technically a 'huge' dick.

MrPickles
28-09-2007, 21:59
Alpharius maybe? He was a pretty good tactician in his time, and his legion has been know to take out entire space marine chapters over time.

Tehkonrad
29-09-2007, 03:25
I reckon that it's ghazgull i don't care if elrad started him the way he's going the eldar are really gonna regret it when his horde reaches ulthwe :p

Razarael
29-09-2007, 08:30
I'm going to go with Yriel here- destroying a chaos armada, destroying a hive fleet, being the most feared Corsair fleet in the entire Galaxy. Not only that, but he fought and killed a Tyranid monster that couldn't be killed by normal means. That and he has a perfect win/loss ratio and his abilities spanned both battles in space on on the ground.

This quote sums it up, I think- "...widely considered to be the greatest genius to have ever sailed the void." And that's by Eldar standards.

To be fair though, I don't really know of the specific exploits of a lot of the people mentioned here. However, from what I do know, Yriel at least needs to be ranked.

Lastly... I can't see how anybody can be discounted because they are innately psychic (Eldrad) or because they are called a God (The Emperor, who is really just an amazingly powerful psychic that just won't die. God is just a fancy title). If you don't use your talents, then you aren't using your full potential, so they're still contenders, in my opinion.

Rockerfella
29-09-2007, 09:01
well you could always state that eldrad is a dick..

Yeah, he is. Even I agree with that statememnt after reading the comedy Warlock diary entires. Funny stuff!

@ Razareal: I agree with you a 100% here. Seems the goal posts were quickly moved from 'the greatest strategist in the universe' when non Imperial names were brough into it to 'Erm, well, what we meant was Imperial MAN, HUMAN generals and strategies'. I'll go with the former. ;)

Fal
29-09-2007, 09:18
The Emperor - nuff said :p
He forged an empire

Imperialis_Dominatus
29-09-2007, 10:38
Except, of course, when they lose.

I assure you, I think Macharius is some sort of apology for... ALL the fluff that doesn't involve him. Basically, Guard die. And then Marines come. They kill all. Guard gets executed.

Yippee. :rolleyes:

Now, the post by Infallius_Daemonium (sic) sums up why I need to go for Macharius.

And not big bad Eldrad. See my sig. Don't eat me Rockerfella, I'm just a bigot human. ;)

stormblade
29-09-2007, 15:20
Of course, lets not forget the real reason they win. Because GW says so and wouldn't have it any other way. Except, of course, when they lose. :p


- Could there be any other reason, I'm just going to paraphrase you(before):

There is no IG or Eldar outside of GW canon- they are as they are portrayed by the GW anything else is fan-based wishful thinking.

And Eldar are also described as a "Race on the brink of extinction" which doesn't only describe them as having negative Birth-Death ratio but also as being few in number.

And face it although the numbers of living Brits and Germans are beginning to lessen there is still a hell lot of them, about 50 and 82 million respectively which makes you comparison somewhat faulty.

Razarael
29-09-2007, 17:31
- Could there be any other reason, I'm just going to paraphrase you(before):

There is no IG or Eldar outside of GW canon- they are as they are portrayed by the GW anything else is fan-based wishful thinking.

And Eldar are also described as a "Race on the brink of extinction" which doesn't only describe them as having negative Birth-Death ratio but also as being few in number.

And face it although the numbers of living Brits and Germans are beginning to lessen there is still a hell lot of them, about 50 and 82 million respectively which makes you comparison somewhat faulty.

I think that being a race on the brink of extinction speaks volumes about Yriel being the greatest tactical genius in the galaxy. Consider what he has to work with? First, being able to defeat a Chaos Armada, with all sorts of nasty chaos marines and daemons, with so few numbers means that it was no easy task. Everything would have had to be executed perfectly. To this we can credit Yriel. It's the same thing with Hive Fleet Kraken. Lets assume that the eldar, with their few numbers were outnumbered 100:1, the odds were absolutely not in their favour. To come out victorious is a huge accomplishment. Yriel uses the tools he has available to perfection.

Being part of a dying race doesn't make any particular individual less amazing just because his race is dying out.

Tanith Ghost
29-09-2007, 19:09
Even with a few xeno commanders in contention, I vote Macharius.
The Lord Solar's conquest of a thousand worlds is seven years is a feat since unmatched by any, Imperial or xenos.

Second place I award to Ghazkul, proof to any who doubt the ork threat just what the eldar, tau, imperials, and others will face on all fronts if the orks were ever to unite. Ghazkhul, given a chance, could well bury a tau sept world or an eldar craftworld.

Abbadon gets a grudging mention- you must have something going for you
to command such respect from all other legions despite a checkered record since the heresy(i.e. getting his objectives but getting a severe trouncing in doing so).

Nargrakhan
29-09-2007, 21:41
The Hive Mind.

If the darker and more outlandish theories are correct, it's been munching on who knows how many galaxies. Crushing so many galactic civilizations and still trucking on, has to be worth something.

Even if it's prime tactical motivation is raw unimaginable hunger.

Yummy. :evilgrin:

stormblade
29-09-2007, 22:01
Being part of a dying race doesn't make any particular individual less amazing just because his race is dying out.


- I never said that Yriel was a bad tactician i just pointed to Rockerfeller's faulty reasoning.

Although I don't think that his attack on Kraken was something special- he just got them from behind, more impressive was the defense that craftworld itself organized against the attack.

Rockerfella
30-09-2007, 20:03
-

And Eldar are also described as a "Race on the brink of extinction" which doesn't only describe them as having negative Birth-Death ratio but also as being few in number.

To be fair, you would be a race on the brink of extinction if your population went down from 30 trillion to 200 million, for example. Its about perspective. There's much contention about the actual total population of the Eldar at present. Just because they're 'dying' does not mean they're not still relatively populous. They could have a population of 200 million, but lets be honest, thats still small fry compared to the Imperium. Where's your frame or point of reference?




And face it although the numbers of living Brits and Germans are beginning to lessen there is still a hell lot of them, about 50 and 82 million respectively which makes you comparison somewhat faulty.

No good sir, it doesn't. How do you know that there aren't 60 million (the actual Brit population) Eldar in the galaxy? My point was simply that you can't exclude Eldar generals from a discussion like this because they belong to a 'dying' race. My second point is that the British culture is dying, but you wouldn't exclude Field Marshall Montgomery from a 'who's who' of strategiest would you, just because of that? :)

Tanith Ghost
30-09-2007, 21:33
Yriel I think is a good contender because of his luck in arriving when he did.
Victory after all, is not just in planning, but in making the most of an oppourtunity. Yreil did.

As clever as Eldrad was though, I discount him for making a claasic seer mistake- he so much, yet could not see his own doom before him.
He got caught up in the big piture a mile off, and missed the sinkhole two feet off.

stormblade
30-09-2007, 21:38
To be fair, you would be a race on the brink of extinction if your population went down from 30 trillion to 200 million, for example. Its about perspective. There's much contention about the actual total population of the Eldar at present. Just because they're 'dying' does not mean they're not still relatively populous. They could have a population of 200 million, but lets be honest, thats still small fry compared to the Imperium. Where's your frame or point of reference?


- Not really if the population of china went down from 1 billion to 7 500 000 they still wouldn't be on the brink of extinction as there is still a large number of them- I don't think that's the case with Eldar(besides them being on the brink of extinction would explain their constant paranoia and dabbling into teh possible future events) [/QUOTE]




No good sir, it doesn't. How do you know that there aren't 60 million (the actual Brit population) Eldar in the galaxy? My point was simply that you can't exclude Eldar generals from a discussion like this because they belong to a 'dying' race. My second point is that the British culture is dying, but you wouldn't exclude Field Marshall Montgomery from a 'who's who' of strategiest would you, just because of that? :)

- Yes it does, because UK and Germany are both significant economical, political and military powers on this planet and their cultures aren't going to die so quickly(most cultures are dying everywhere if you ask me).

The proper comparison for the Eldar would be Rome(if there were any Romans still living) or perhaps Lithuania or Armenia(these countries have both been great in their time.)

And I do agree with you that the fact that someone's race/culture/whatever is dying shouldn't prohibit their leaders from gaining their due 'respect' - I just thought that you comparison was a bit off.:D

Ktotwf
30-09-2007, 21:38
My second point is that the British culture is dying, but you wouldn't exclude Field Marshall Montgomery from a 'who's who' of strategiest would you, just because of that? :)


No, you would exclude him because he was a pretentious git.

Rockerfella
30-09-2007, 21:38
There's a name for that, but it leaves me! Erm, as far as I was aware, no seer or psyker could or can see his/her own death. Is this the 'shadowpoint'? I can't remember the name for it.

Ah well!!

:)

@ Stormblade: But the problem with your reasoning here is that you, nor I actually know the true number of Eldar in the Galaxy. For me, (and yes, its a guess) Its actually considerably more than people seem to think. I imagine each Craftworld numbers in the millions. I also think its fair to say the Eldar are also still a significant force, economical and or otherwise power in the Galaxy. But thats just me. :) The point was simply that the Eldar can't be included cos they're 'dying'. On that rationale, surely you wouldn't include the British in a similar comparison of RL strategists? I think my comparison stands. :)

@Ktotwf: Montgomery was a pretentious git? I'd like you to expand on that for me.

Smishkun
01-10-2007, 04:58
There's a name for that, but it leaves me! Erm, as far as I was aware, no seer or psyker could or can see his/her own death. Is this the 'shadowpoint'? I can't remember the name for it.

Ah well!!

:)

@ Stormblade: But the problem with your reasoning here is that you, nor I actually know the true number of Eldar in the Galaxy. For me, (and yes, its a guess) Its actually considerably more than people seem to think. I imagine each Craftworld numbers in the millions. I also think its fair to say the Eldar are also still a significant force, economical and or otherwise power in the Galaxy. But thats just me. :) The point was simply that the Eldar can't be included cos they're 'dying'. On that rationale, surely you wouldn't include the British in a similar comparison of RL strategists? I think my comparison stands. :)

@Ktotwf: Montgomery was a pretentious git? I'd like you to expand on that for me.

Theres no question the Eldar are a significant power in the Galaxy, else they wouldnt be included in so much fluff, as well as being a staple army on the tabletop. However they are viewed as dying because they were so much greater, and yet forced into such insignficance(comparably). However though they are small compared to their previous dominance, they are still a dangerous threat to anyone that gets in their way.

Also, im still not seeing where anyone has directly discounted the Eldar from this discussion simply for dying, most(as for myself as well) have discounted them because farseers use a bit more than tactics to win battles and stay alive, which you cant blame them for of course, but still its just a bit different from your run of the mill battlefield tactics.

Also Montgomery was always viewed as Pompous from most of the literature ive read, but more as a quirk of personality than a serious shortcoming. Patton got alot more static for his persona on the american side of the rivarly.

Shiakou
01-10-2007, 06:57
There's a name for that, but it leaves me! Erm, as far as I was aware, no seer or psyker could or can see his/her own death.

From Dawn of War: Dark Crusade, upon attacking the SM Stronghold with Eldar forces.


Captain Thule: We will send you back to your Craftworld in a tomb!
Farseer Taldeer: I’ve known my death for ten of your lifetimes, captain. Don’t think to scare me with it.

She might be lying or mistaken, but still. . .

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-10-2007, 15:45
From Dawn of War: Dark Crusade, upon attacking the IG Stronghold with Eldar forces.


She might be lying or mistaken, but still. . .

DOW hasn't always struck me as the most true-to-fluff game out there, though better than Fire Warrior. I'd say the common archetypes about seer/prophet characters hold here.

LexxBomb
04-10-2007, 05:46
what do you mean fire warrior was bad fluff wise.. i loved the novel *not the game)

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-10-2007, 06:59
what do you mean fire warrior was bad fluff wise.. i loved the novel *not the game)

I was talking about the game, for clarification.

The game wasn't that good game-wise, and just the whole idea of peace between Tau and Imperium, one dead Greater Daemon meaning "Chaos had been defeated forever" or whatever the final line was, and the Space Marine not exactly feeling any indecision about siding with aliens, etc. The game didn't execute fluff-wise for me for a couple reasons other than that, but I'd need to play again.

Dawn of War, there's obviously bones of contention when Imperial forces are forced to ally with Eldar and such... it seems more real.

I need to read more BL obviously. Or maybe not... :evilgrin:

GreenDracoBob
04-10-2007, 17:47
Maybe Eldrad could see his death, but knew it would be for the good of the race. Just a suggestion that could mesh with both sides.

In any case, I would say that many generals in 40k could be considered the best. All I can think of have already been mentioned. Unfortunately, me choosing one is both unlikely and miniscule in its addition to the thread.

And on the whole "dying race" thing. I guess if we can't count these people into the discussion, then tacticians who hail from races long gone must not count, either. Hannibal, you are no longer a great general. Carthage is no longer a culture, so you just don't exist to us. Good thing China's still around, or all this talk of Sun Tzu wouldn't be as reasonable as we think in this current universe.

Rockerfella
04-10-2007, 20:35
And on the whole "dying race" thing. I guess if we can't count these people into the discussion, then tacticians who hail from races long gone must not count, either. Hannibal, you are no longer a great general. Carthage is no longer a culture, so you just don't exist to us. Good thing China's still around, or all this talk of Sun Tzu wouldn't be as reasonable as we think in this current universe.

*Applauds!*

Absolutely! Bravo good sir! Bravo indeed!! ;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-10-2007, 21:49
*Applauds!*

Absolutely! Bravo good sir! Bravo indeed!! ;)

About makes you want a rep system here, huh?

azimaith
04-10-2007, 22:13
In terms of greatest tacticians it depends on how you consider tactics. Eldar, being capable of pre-cognition might be excluded on that account. After all, passing a mensa test with someone over your shoulder telling you the answers doesn't make you a genius.

Its also arguable that the tactical ability comes into play when considering the multiple skeins of fate that an Eldar must read and pick one out of them all.

I think their pre-cognition prevents them from being the greatest "tacticians" of all time in the same way a person who scores higher on a mensa test that has multiple choice than someone who has to fill in the blank does not necessarily indicate a greater intelligence.

The eldar have a leg up physically which makes them adept at reading the future acting accordingly, races without such a solid ability instead must rely on intuition and cunning. The difference between a multiple choice and a fill in the blank essentially.
While Gazkhull vs Eldrad might be a non-issue, Eldar without any psychic powers may be considered a more even match. (As were talking about tacticians, not about psychic or sensory abilities).

Anyhow thats why i'd leave eldar out (or isolate from their psychic abilities) for greatest *tactician*. They would however, be right up at the top for the *most effective tactician*. (Which are of course different)

Being very effective at executing tactics doesn't necessarily indicate great skill with tactics. If a person already knows what the other person is going to do.

Smishkun
04-10-2007, 22:47
In terms of greatest tacticians it depends on how you consider tactics. Eldar, being capable of pre-cognition might be excluded on that account. After all, passing a mensa test with someone over your shoulder telling you the answers doesn't make you a genius.

Its also arguable that the tactical ability comes into play when considering the multiple skeins of fate that an Eldar must read and pick one out of them all.

I think their pre-cognition prevents them from being the greatest "tacticians" of all time in the same way a person who scores higher on a mensa test that has multiple choice than someone who has to fill in the blank does not necessarily indicate a greater intelligence.

The eldar have a leg up physically which makes them adept at reading the future acting accordingly, races without such a solid ability instead must rely on intuition and cunning. The difference between a multiple choice and a fill in the blank essentially.
While Gazkhull vs Eldrad might be a non-issue, Eldar without any psychic powers may be considered a more even match. (As were talking about tacticians, not about psychic or sensory abilities).

Anyhow thats why i'd leave eldar out (or isolate from their psychic abilities) for greatest *tactician*. They would however, be right up at the top for the *most effective tactician*. (Which are of course different)

Being very effective at executing tactics doesn't necessarily indicate great skill with tactics. If a person already knows what the other person is going to do.

I agree wholeheartedly sir, wholeheartedly.

Captain Stern
08-10-2007, 02:11
"Horus is the greatest general the galaxy has ever known." - The Emperor from ROC: The Lost and the Damned

After Horus it was probably The Emperor and the rest of the primarchs. Lesser humans and almost all aliens simply don't have the mental capacity to compete.

Lord Merlin
08-10-2007, 03:13
Macharius . Not even the Emperor has a freaking medal named after him. There is no Yarrick cross. Yarrick fought on one world. Mach. took 1000 in a few years. Macharius was the best human commander of all time. Yriel was the best overall commander of all time.

MarinesInSpace
08-10-2007, 04:14
I am an Imperial player and thus may be biased. I must say in the Eldar's defense, that the fact that they are a dying race makes it MORE difficult to effectively fight wars against more numerous foes. The Eldar often win those engagements while at the same time, attempting to minimalize casualties. For that I tip my hat to them.

I suppose it all depends on what aspect of combat you are talking about. Defensive actions, It could be Rogal Dorn or Yarrick (I am primarily familiar with Imperial commanders so forgive the bias.) For offensive combat, it could be Macharius or Horus. It just depends.

killa kan kaus
08-10-2007, 04:28
Dying has no impact on this topic at all

Imperialis_Dominatus
08-10-2007, 09:53
Dying has no impact on this topic at all

Indeed.

Just because a race is overall dying does not make the might of a Craftworld a diminished force- indeed I'd say a Craftworld's forces are a military force to be reckoned with. If someone goes out and destroys ant colonies, that doesn't make your given antfarm any less full of bugs. If I'm conveying my point effectively. Which is a prospect I doubt.

Do you guys understand? I mean, the total population of Eldar doesn't mean that your standard Eldar army is not any less effective, it's not like the Fall happened yesterday and the Eldar are in disarray- they've had ten millennia to recover. Saying they're less able to fight is an insult I'd even concede they don't deserve, Imperial dog that I am.

Tanith Ghost
08-10-2007, 10:22
I think 'dying' factors in for the eldar in the sense they know the lack the numbers to go for atrition wars.

Eldar, because of their dying status, are more likely to think everything out beforehand, and go as much as possible for fighting smart over fighting by brute force.

Rockerfella
08-10-2007, 16:45
Indeed.

Just because a race is overall dying does not make the might of a Craftworld a diminished force- indeed I'd say a Craftworld's forces are a military force to be reckoned with. If someone goes out and destroys ant colonies, that doesn't make your given antfarm any less full of bugs. If I'm conveying my point effectively. Which is a prospect I doubt.

Do you guys understand? I mean, the total population of Eldar doesn't mean that your standard Eldar army is not any less effective, it's not like the Fall happened yesterday and the Eldar are in disarray- they've had ten millennia to recover. Saying they're less able to fight is an insult I'd even concede they don't deserve, Imperial dog that I am.

Makes perfect sense to me Sir. This is pretty much the point i've been attempting to make for the last three pages. No one wanted to listen. Ah well.

The fact for me is this. Just because the Eldar are a 'dying race' does not mean that a) There's only six of them left in the galaxy, and b) That they should be excluded from this discussion.

In all fairness, there could ba anything upto tens of millions of inhabitants on a large Craftworld. Ulthwe is the size of the Moon. There's the space. Also, remember that the craftworlds have grown since the fall to accomodate more Eldar. :)

Cheers!

stormblade
08-10-2007, 20:15
Makes perfect sense to me Sir. This is pretty much the point I've been attempting to make for the last three pages. No one wanted to listen. Ah well.

Cheers!

- Well, actually only one guy had a problem with it and you two argued through a whole page (or more) about it.

I think that one might also add Farsight and Corax to the list.

GreenDracoBob
08-10-2007, 21:16
I don't see why Farsight and Corax should be added. On reputation alone it seems? Maybe I could be enlightened.

Captain Stern
08-10-2007, 22:11
We can safely infer that Corax, and every other primarch, were immeasurably greater tacticians and strategists than every single conventional human and marine (and all the leaders of the aliens) before and after their lives simply by dint of their super-human natures. The absence of their battle records is irrelevant. All this means is that they haven't been written about very extensively by GW and that, in the 40k universe itself, much of the knowledge concerning the lives of the primarchs have been lost over the millenia.

Unless the purpose of this thread is to compile a Top-30 list of generals then individuals such as Macharius, Yriel and Farsight shouldn't even be mentioned.

Also, why is it taken so lightly here when The Emperor stated flatly to himself that "Horus is the greatest general the Galaxy has ever known'?

GreenDracoBob
08-10-2007, 23:12
I see that the Primarchs could all be considered, but I wouldn't count out others. In the end, the best tactician is probably someone unknown, but then we couldn't talk about them.

Thought the Emperor did say that, he was a little biased because obviously a human is going to be the best tactician to a human (they wouldn't admit otherwise). Beyond which, the Emperor's favorite son is Horus. It's easy to say your favorite is the best. Nor can you count his large amount of powers in his favor because even when Horus had stated "I hate you dad" and proceeded to try to destroy everything the Emperor had made (succeeding in many aspects) and then killing his best friend and brother, the Emperor still said "He's a good guy, I just have to talk to him about this mess and he'll clean it up."

So that's where I can see the problem of the Emperor's statement. Though I do agree that Horus was a great leader.

Captain Stern
08-10-2007, 23:25
And, of course, we automatically assume he's biased because they're both human (well sort of). Maybe he was actually being objective? Maybe a being of the Emperor's magnitude with power and insight unimaginable actually wasn't being biased when he made this deduction?

Inquisitor Feldenhaus
09-10-2007, 00:21
Well, in general, I would say Horus(curse his name).
And out of Mortals I would say Lord Solar Macharius.

stormblade
09-10-2007, 19:12
I don't see why Farsight and Corax should be added. On reputation alone it seems? Maybe I could be enlightened.

"The Great Crusade saw Corax lead the Raven Guard in some of the most stunning victories of that turbulent time. He had not forgotten the training he had received on Deliverance and his talents for sabotage and precision planning were employed to great effect in the Emperor's Crusade. Planets thought impregnable fell to Corax's guile and swift, deadly actions of the Raven Guard. Assassinations, covert operations behind enemy lines and sabotage became the watchwords of the Legion and in these areas their skill was unmatched. Corax became a master at observing a planet's power structure and applying military pressure where needed to topple its leaders or cripple it's military capabilities."

and

"Corax's Legion garnered such a fearsome reputation that Warmaster Horus requested their aid many times in his campaigns and it is thought that it was thanks to the Raven Guard's assistance that Horus's tally of victories was so high."

- That's from red elf.:rolleyes:

Sekhmet
09-10-2007, 19:21
We can safely infer that Corax, and every other primarch, were immeasurably greater tacticians and strategists than every single conventional human and marine (and all the leaders of the aliens) before and after their lives simply by dint of their super-human natures.

Super-human means greater than a human. Eldar are considered super-human in many aspects (intelligence, psychic power on the racial level, etc), so even if a primarch has super-human intelligence, it may only be on par with the average Eldar Autarch. Without a Farseer to guide him, of course.



The absence of their battle records is irrelevant. All this means is that they haven't been written about very extensively by GW and that, in the 40k universe itself, much of the knowledge concerning the lives of the primarchs have been lost over the millenia.

That's a double-edged sword you put out there. Yes, because their battle records don't exist, you can't say they aren't great generals. But at the same time, you can't say they ARE great generals either.

From what we've seen, Horus' great "leadership" consists of convincing his brothers to help him and basically landing troops. Nothing particularly clever about his strategies, just brute force.

LexxBomb
10-10-2007, 12:46
Macharius . Not even the Emperor has a freaking medal named after him. There is no Yarrick cross. Yarrick fought on one world. Mach. took 1000 in a few years. Macharius was the best human commander of all time. Yriel was the best overall commander of all time.

I was under the impression that the space marines have a medal named after the Emperor - the Imperial medal. I thought it was an honour given to the best marksmen in the chapter and is represented by a gold bolter shell around the neck.

Captain Stern
10-10-2007, 17:29
Super-human means greater than a human. Eldar are considered super-human in many aspects (intelligence, psychic power on the racial level, etc), so even if a primarch has super-human intelligence, it may only be on par with the average Eldar Autarch. Without a Farseer to guide him, of course.

Personally I think the mental capacities of the Primarchs were way beyond any Eldar.



That's a double-edged sword you put out there. Yes, because their battle records don't exist, you can't say they aren't great generals. But at the same time, you can't say they ARE great generals either.

Not neccessarily. We can infer that they were great generals because of who they were and the purpose of their creation.



From what we've seen, Horus' great "leadership" consists of convincing his brothers to help him and basically landing troops. Nothing particularly clever about his strategies, just brute force.

That's one interpretation (though one based on the writings of the poorer GW authors).

Witchfire
10-10-2007, 18:03
Personally I think the mental capacities of the Primarchs were way beyond any Eldar.



Not neccessarily. We can infer that they were great generals because of who they were and the purpose of their creation.



That's one interpretation (though one based on the writings of the poorer GW authors).

then you'd be wrong wouldnt you? a reason behind the fall of the primarchs was that although they were superhuman in physique they were only human in mind.

( quoted from a GW publication )

zealot!
10-10-2007, 18:03
although the primarchs may have been 'above' eldar to some mental degree, i doubt they experienced emotional processes like eldar did/do.

Captain Stern
10-10-2007, 19:09
then you'd be wrong wouldnt you? a reason behind the fall of the primarchs was that although they were superhuman in physique they were only human in mind.

( quoted from a GW publication )

Urgh... You're quickly becoming my least favourite member of Warseer.

Witchfire
10-10-2007, 19:16
Urgh... You're quickly becoming my least favourite member of Warseer.

funny that, the same applies to how i feel about you :eyebrows:

stormblade
10-10-2007, 20:04
then you'd be wrong wouldnt you? a reason behind the fall of the primarchs was that although they were superhuman in physique they were only human in mind.

( quoted from a GW publication )

- Unlike Eldar who were super-human in mind and managed to make a whole lot more of a mess:p

Witchfire
10-10-2007, 20:06
- Unlike Eldar who were super-human in mind and managed to make a whole lot more of a mess:p

exactly, although a primarch could 'ave da pointy ears inna fight wot? dems fighty boyz

iron within, iron without
10-10-2007, 20:12
i'd say the best tactician in the fluff for 40k would have to be sanginius, he understood that if he didn't sacrifice himself to weaken horus then the emperor would not have succeded and the galaxy would have fallen to chaos. Another possibility is the hive mind as a singular sentient being, as the tyranids have without a doubt over-run at least one galaxy and will probably devour this one.

Imperialis_Dominatus
10-10-2007, 20:36
Urgh... You're quickly becoming my least favourite member of Warseer.


funny that, the same applies to how i feel about you :eyebrows:

Break it up, or get a room.


- Unlike Eldar who were super-human in mind and managed to make a whole lot more of a mess:p

I like your style.

Rockerfella
10-10-2007, 21:06
- Unlike Eldar who were super-human in mind and managed to make a whole lot more of a mess:p

We'll see. Lets make it a fair test shall we? Lets see what condition, nay, the state of the galaxy is in after 60 million years of Imperial rule. If the Imperium lasts that long, which I seriously doubt. ;)

Sekhmet
10-10-2007, 21:10
Personally I think the mental capacities of the Primarchs were way beyond any Eldar.

It's fine to have a personal opinion, but without any proof whatsoever, that's all it will ever be.



Not neccessarily. We can infer that they were great generals because of who they were and the purpose of their creation.

We cannot infer they were great generals because of the purpose of their creation. Being created for a purpose does not immediately create a superiority in that purpose. For all we know, they were average commanders (certainly not bad ones) with elite forces at their disposal.

stormblade
10-10-2007, 21:18
We'll see. Lets make it a fair test shall we? Lets see what condition, nay, the state of the galaxy is in after 60 million years of Imperial rule. If the Imperium lasts that long, which I seriously doubt. ;)

As you wish- If IoM manages to make a bigger hole in the reality than the Eldar did (although I seriously doubt this) than I'll give the pointy eared boyz their due credit(or respect or whatever):evilgrin:

Rockerfella
10-10-2007, 21:25
As you wish- If IoM manages to make a bigger hole in the reality than the Eldar did (although I seriously doubt this) than I'll give the pointy eared boyz their due credit(or respect or whatever):evilgrin:


Excellent! The IoM has 59,999,999 years to screw things up even more than they already have done.

Reflect on this. The galaxy is in a constant state of perpetual war and strife, and has been since the inception of the Imperium.

The majority of the old Eldar empires life was one of peace, tranquility and the rest. The galaxy under Eldar rule was a much nicer place than it is today, i think. (until it all went pear shaped, of course)

History has a perculiar habit of repeating itself. I wonder what fate and the future has install for the already staggering IoM. ;)

stormblade
10-10-2007, 21:38
The majority of the old Eldar empires life was one of peace, tranquility and the rest. The galaxy under Eldar rule was a much nicer place than it is today, i think. (until it all went pear shaped, of course)


- Because there wasn't this tear in reality which makes it a whole lot easier for those nasty warp guys to manifest and whisper lies into the ears of unaware mortals in order to turn them.

You can blame the Imperium all you want but all the chaos induced mess(including HH) was ultimately Eldar fault because they made it all possible.

And IoM is not free thinking, pleasure seeking, enlighten and technologically progressing Empire of Eldar- they are a bunch of militaristic, narrow-minded and half-crazed fanatics that live in despotically organized oppressive society so I doubt that they'll walk the same path.

Although all paths ultimately lead to war and destruction:skull:

Chaplain Dionitas
10-10-2007, 21:39
Well Guilliman was pretty damn good. So good that Horus sent him to the far reaches of the galaxy so he wouldn't interfere with his plans. Then in the aftermath Gulliman managed to hold the imperium together and write the Codex. No one will admit it because he's papa smurf though.

GreenDracoBob
10-10-2007, 21:44
But Horus tried to get Sanguinius, El'Jonson and Russ away from Terra, too. He also wiped out three other Legions' fighting force. Horus didn't want anyone on Terra that he could get away from Terra.

Guilliman was a great leader, but he was in good company.

LexxBomb
11-10-2007, 03:55
Excellent! The IoM has 59,999,999 years to screw things up even more than they already have done.

Reflect on this. The galaxy is in a constant state of perpetual war and strife, and has been since the inception of the Imperium.

The majority of the old Eldar empires life was one of peace, tranquility and the rest. The galaxy under Eldar rule was a much nicer place than it is today, i think. (until it all went pear shaped, of course)

History has a perculiar habit of repeating itself. I wonder what fate and the future has install for the already staggering IoM. ;)

funny that given the rise of the necrontyr originally plunged the galaxy into perpetual war - first the war in heaven - old ones create eldar - eldar create mind slavers - old ones create the orks. with the creation of the orks the galaxy is never at peace. the orks only wage war all the time, they never stop.

oh and as far as empires go the eldar empire wasn't really that big to begin with. the eye of terror is the approx size of their empire core. the rest of the galaxy was under human control untill the warp storms. infact the birth of Slannesh enabled the Emperor to go out and reform the human empire. so really the current imperium is the 3rd incarnation of the humans right to rule the galaxy.

Rockerfella
11-10-2007, 13:42
oh and as far as empires go the eldar empire wasn't really that big to begin with. Well, it was. ITs core wasn't that big. Remember, the Eldar empre had the webway to travel vast distances. They could walk from one side of the galaxy to another in the space of a few yards in webway time. So, the need for a big military presence EVERYWHERE simply wasn't there. Best analogy i ever heard was this: Think British Empire. Small 'hub' i.e. the UK, but the empire was all touching. ;)



the rest of the galaxy was under human control untill the warp storms. Where did you hear this? Trust me, it wasn't. The Eldar ruled the galaxy before mankind even crawled from the oceans! How could mankind rule the rest of the galaxy if they weren't even around to do so? I think you mean that mankind were allowed to progress, and were actively left alone by the Eldar (as was their want) because they didn't see humanity as a threat. The Eldar weren't a xenophobic species. (in fact, they were far too involved in their own devices to worry about the Mon'Keigh) Also, remember that when mankind was reaching for the stars, the Eldar were in their death throes anyway. The Eldar empire of old had already eaten itself from the inside by the time humanity even reached space. Humanity, in essence, filled an already empty space. :)


so really the current imperium is the 3rd incarnation of the humans right to rule the galaxy. If you say so. ;) Personally, I don't think humanity has anymore 'right' to rule the galaxy than any of the other races do. But thats just me.

Captain Stern
11-10-2007, 19:15
It's fine to have a personal opinion, but without any proof whatsoever, that's all it will ever be.

We cannot infer they were great generals because of the purpose of their creation. Being created for a purpose does not immediately create a superiority in that purpose. For all we know, they were average commanders (certainly not bad ones) with elite forces at their disposal.


Ok. In False Gods Horus says he's "a being that can comprehend the infinite" (I paraphrase). He was dying and desperate to let someone know what he was, as well as his hopes, dreams, regrets e.t.c.. The general impression one gets is that he was every bit as impressive mentally as he was physically.

In Horus Rising Rogal Dorn, very humbly (I mean that literally), desribes himself and his brothers as demi-gods. He then adds that The Emperor, being a god, has no like in the universe and that he made the primarchs, demi-gods, to keep him company. Now, quite obviously, the physical abilities that come from being a demi-god wouldn't serve to alleviate The Emperor's loneliness. Therefore we can ascertain that The Emperor succeeded in his aim to make them demi-gods mentally as well as physically because Dorn, himself a primarch, considers himself a demi-god (and "shudders when he sees what he's capable of" - Horus Rising).

This also means that we CAN 'infer they were great generals because of the purpose of their creation.' The Emperor succeeded in this respect. Being a demi-god mentally as well as physically basically guarantees you're a great general far above and beyond non-primarch generals, as tactics and strategy are domains of the mind (whether the authors employed by GW can reflect this is another story).

Whether the primarchs' mental abilities exceeded the Eldar's, I suppose it's still left to interpretation, although I think the background favours the Primarchs far more so in this regard.
I don't think there's anything in the background to suggest the Eldar have demi-godlike mental abilities. Characteristics yes (their heightened emotional capacity) but not abilities. In the 40th millenium Eldar generals are still sometimes outmanouvered and defeated by normal human generals.

Witchfire
11-10-2007, 19:59
Ok. In False Gods Horus says he's "a being that can comprehend the infinite" (I paraphrase). He was dying and desperate to let someone know what he was, as well as his hopes, dreams, regrets e.t.c.. The general impression one gets is that he was every bit as impressive mentally as he was physically.

In Horus Rising Rogal Dorn, very humbly (I mean that literally), desribes himself and his brothers as demi-gods. He then adds that The Emperor, being a god, has no like in the universe and that he made the primarchs, demi-gods, to keep him company. Now, quite obviously, the physical abilities that come from being a demi-god wouldn't serve to alleviate The Emperor's loneliness. Therefore we can ascertain that The Emperor succeeded in his aim to make them demi-gods mentally as well as physically because Dorn, himself a primarch, considers himself a demi-god (and "shudders when he sees what he's capable of" - Horus Rising).

This also means that we CAN 'infer they were great generals because of the purpose of their creation.' The Emperor succeeded in this respect. Being a demi-god mentally as well as physically basically guarantees you're a great general far above and beyond non-primarch generals, as tactics and strategy are domains of the mind (whether the authors employed by GW can reflect this is another story).

Whether the primarchs' mental abilities exceeded the Eldar's, I suppose it's still left to interpretation, although I think the background favours the Primarchs far more so in this regard.
I don't think there's anything in the background to suggest the Eldar have demi-godlike mental abilities. Characteristics yes (their heightened emotional capacity) but not abilities. In the 40th millenium Eldar generals are still sometimes outmanouvered and defeated by normal human generals.

and i can call myself a demi-god but that doesnt make it so.

and dorn was hardly humble, and thats coming from one of his followers!

also the emperor spent half his life stating that he is not a god

Captain Stern
11-10-2007, 20:12
and i can call myself a demi-god but that doesnt make it so.

and dorn was hardly humble, and thats coming from one of his followers!

also the emperor spent half his life stating that he is not a god

If you want to be trite about this then you can say the same about the C'Tan. They call themselves gods, but I guess that doesn't make it so, huh? The C'Tan, by the way, are creations of Graham MacNeil, the author of False Gods who also worked very closely with Dan Abnett on Horus Rising.

I'm guessing the Rogal Dorn you're referring to is Pete Haines' version of the character from The IA Articles. The Dorn in the novels (and the older background) is humble, steadfast, stern e.t.c. and is clearly not the same character featured in the atrocious IA Articles and has clearly been heavily revised.

Witchfire
11-10-2007, 20:18
If you want to be trite about this then you can say the same about the C'Tan. They call themselves gods, but I guess that doesn't make it so, huh? The C'Tan, by the way, are creations of Graham MacNeil, the author of False Gods who also worked very closely with Dan Abnett on Horus Rising.

I'm guessing the Rogal Dorn you're referring to is Pete Haines' version of the character from The IA Articles. The Dorn in the novels (and the older background) is humble, steadfast, stern e.t.c. and is clearly not the same character featured in the atrocious IA Articles and has clearly been heavily revised.

The c'tan are gods, and the primarchs were part of a regime that said no gods.

a lecture in fluff from captain stern- the member who is seemingly convinced that ferrus mannus killed the dragon of mars before even meeting the emperor!

...how ironic... :rolleyes:

Rockerfella
11-10-2007, 20:33
I've got to wade in on this one.

Firstly, since when was quoting from a persons mouth, especially someone such as Rogal Dorn, an objective or fair assessment of who and what the Primarchs were? Remember, these said 'gods' weren't even aware of Chaos. A lowly Eldar Guardian knows more about the universe it seems than the 'GOD' Primarchs ever did.

Also, if i'm honest, Dorn certainly does not come across as humble in the slightest in the Heresy books. He's quite the pig headed self important braggard when he's talking to Garro and co. Thats just my take on him mind. I warmed to him in the end.

I just think that Dorn saying he's a god, is like David Icke (sp) claliming to be god too. They both are clearly not gods. The Primarchs only knew what they were told, and david Icke was simply insane.

Captain Stern
11-10-2007, 21:28
I've got to wade in on this one.

Firstly, since when was quoting from a persons mouth, especially someone such as Rogal Dorn, an objective or fair assessment of who and what the Primarchs were? Remember, these said 'gods' weren't even aware of Chaos. A lowly Eldar Guardian knows more about the universe it seems than the 'GOD' Primarchs ever did.

Also, if i'm honest, Dorn certainly does not come across as humble in the slightest in the Heresy books. He's quite the pig headed self important braggard when he's talking to Garro and co. Thats just my take on him mind. I warmed to him in the end.

I just think that Dorn saying he's a god, is like David Icke (sp) claliming to be god too. They both are clearly not gods. The Primarchs only knew what they were told, and david Icke was simply insane.

It's pretty clear what spirit that conversation between Dorn and Loken was in (feel free to back me up, anybody).

It's also almost as clear that Abnett was grooming Dorn as the good primarch foil to Horus' bad primarch (to extents). I'm not familiar with Dorn's portrayal in FOTE as I had to stop reading it. I don't doubt what you say, it sounds like another symptom of GW's choice to have multiple writers telling the story.

Witchfire
11-10-2007, 21:37
I've got to wade in on this one.

Firstly, since when was quoting from a persons mouth, especially someone such as Rogal Dorn, an objective or fair assessment of who and what the Primarchs were? Remember, these said 'gods' weren't even aware of Chaos. A lowly Eldar Guardian knows more about the universe it seems than the 'GOD' Primarchs ever did.

Also, if i'm honest, Dorn certainly does not come across as humble in the slightest in the Heresy books. He's quite the pig headed self important braggard when he's talking to Garro and co. Thats just my take on him mind. I warmed to him in the end.

I just think that Dorn saying he's a god, is like David Icke (sp) claliming to be god too. They both are clearly not gods. The Primarchs only knew what they were told, and david Icke was simply insane.

thank you Rockerfella

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-10-2007, 22:09
The c'tan are gods, and the primarchs were part of a regime that said no gods.

a lecture in fluff from captain stern- the member who is seemingly convinced that ferrus mannus killed the dragon of mars before even meeting the emperor!

...how ironic... :rolleyes:

First off, the C'tan call themselves gods, are percieved as gods, and have godlike powers. If that is your definition of a god, they are. If that's not your definition of a god (not talking to sandman), then what is a god? Specifically in context with the WH40k universe?

I see no reason why that argument applies here. Although my curiousity is piqued... I've heard allusions but little else. However, I sympathize with you in that self-description is not always the best way to decide if one is a god.

I will contest, however, that the Primarchs were excellent generals. I will not go so far as to decide if they were the best, but I doubt that in any case they were less than average, or even less than above average.

stormblade
12-10-2007, 06:57
A lecture in fluff from Captain Stern- the member of Warseer forum boards who is seemingly convinced that Ferrus Mannus killed The Dragon of Mars before even meeting The Emperor!


- What was that thing he killed anyway?

Captain Stern
12-10-2007, 13:33
- What was that thing he killed anyway?

It was the Void Dragon.

Light of the Emperor
12-10-2007, 13:37
Lord Solar Macharius for me.

Gazkhull gets a mention too. He had some funny but dead 'ard tactics on Armageddon.

Rockerfella
12-10-2007, 14:57
It was the Void Dragon.

Good sir, do you have any proof or evidence to support this statement? It was far more likely he killed a Wraith or other such necron construct.

We all know how 'ard' Primarchs are, but in all fairness, a primarch would not, ever, be able to kill a c'tan in energy form (since they can't really die... Khaine tried that one, a fully manifested warp god...). These things drink stars...... can you imagine the energy and power it takes to do something like that? A primarch would be incinerated the second he got too close to a star (just to give a sense of perspective)

While the Primarchs are undoubtledy massivley powerful in the context of their own time and place, you cetainly cannot put them in the same league as a C'tan, For me at least.

As I've said before, i've been wrong thousands of times, I could be here too! :)

Cheers!

Captain Stern
12-10-2007, 15:17
Oh, man. You're too easy.

Witchfire
12-10-2007, 15:24
Good sir, do you have any proof or evidence to support this statement? It was far more likely he killed a Wraith or other such necron construct.

We all know how 'ard' Primarchs are, but in all fairness, a primarch would not, ever, be able to kill a c'tan in energy form (since they can't really die... Khaine tried that one, a fully manifested warp god...). These things drink stars...... can you imagine the energy and power it takes to do something like that? A primarch would be incinerated the second he got too close to a star (just to give a sense of perspective)

While the Primarchs are undoubtledy massivley powerful in the context of their own time and place, you cetainly cannot put them in the same league as a C'tan, For me at least.

As I've said before, i've been wrong thousands of times, I could be here too! :)

Cheers!

we argued for exactly 100 posts over this and captain stern would not listen to anything, including quotes from codex necrons and lexicanum.

the creature killed was a c'tan construct named asirnoth- that is written in index astartes and so is end of story

Rockerfella
12-10-2007, 15:41
we argued for exactly 100 posts over this and captain stern would not listen to anything, including quotes from codex necrons and lexicanum.

the creature killed was a c'tan construct named asirnoth- that is written in index astartes and so is end of story

Well, the thing with ole Stern over here is, that he rarely, if ever, provides evidence or proof to back up his colossal supposition, and or waffle. It all becomes a little, tiring, shall we say?

If its a C'tan Construct, then its not a C'tan. Two very, very different things, surely?

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-10-2007, 15:58
**** all, when will you learn that there is almost no reason to use the biggest size font? It's not making me sympathetic to your point of view. It's irritating to the eye. Just italicize.

Now, OK. It was not a C'tan. But if a C'tan can annhilate a Primarch, then there's no reason not to represent the Primarchs in game. But they (Primarchs) are not because they are "too powerful" and would "imbalance the game."

Think you on that for a moment.

My crusade continues.

Witchfire
12-10-2007, 16:00
Well, the thing with ole Stern over here is, that he rarely, if ever, provides evidence or proof to back up his colossal supposition, and or waffle. It all becomes a little, tiring, shall we say?

If its a C'tan Construct, then its not a C'tan. Two very, very different things, surely?

exactly, stern and his assumptions the size of tzeentch's intellect are really starting to get on my nerves


**** all, when will you learn that there is almost no reason to use the biggest size font? It's not making me sympathetic to your point of view. It's irritating to the eye. Just italicize.

Now, OK. It was not a C'tan. But if a C'tan can annhilate a Primarch, then there's no reason not to represent the Primarchs in game. But they (Primarchs) are not because they are "too powerful" and would "imbalance the game."

Think you on that for a moment.

My crusade continues.

ok, from now on i will try to keep that in mind

Rockerfella
12-10-2007, 16:04
*thinking......thinking.........thought*

Ok. Well, I think its fair to say that the c'tan are certainly either a) dubmbed down for game balance, or are suuposedly represented in game as being 'less powerful than they actually are'. Those are the two more popular versions i've heard.

I certainly don't think Primarchs aren't included because they are too powerful, but because all the loyalist primarchs are either dead or missing. Nuff said.

Secondly, bring on the traitor Primarchs, I think it would be interesting to see how powerful they are. Could they be represented in game format? Sure, I don't see why not. The reason they aren't is probably because GW dosen't want to ruin the mystique or enigmatic natire of the Primarchs. Something like that i'd guess.

I don't think you can infer, for one moment, that because C'tan are in the game, and Primarchs are not, that Primarchs are then more powerful than a C'tan. Thats just plain silly talk. :)

Cheers!

Witchfire
12-10-2007, 16:07
*thinking......thinking.........thought*

Ok. Well, I think its fair to say that the c'tan are certainly either a) dubmbed down for game balance, or are suuposedly represented in game as being 'less powerful than they actually are'. Those are the two more popular versions i've heard.

I certainly don't think Primarchs aren't included because they are too powerful, but because all the loyalist primarchs are either dead or missing. Nuff said.

Secondly, bring on the traitor Primarchs, I think it would be interesting to see how powerful they are. Could they be represented in game format? Sure, I don't see why not. The reason they aren't is probably because GW dosen't want to ruin the mystique or enigmatic natire of the Primarchs. Something like that i'd guess.

I don't think you can infer, for one moment, that because C'tan are in the game, and Primarchs are not, that Primarchs are then more powerful than a C'tan. Thats just plain silly talk. :)

Cheers!

i think the c'tan, like space marines are horrendously underpowered for the purposes of fairness.

and i think the c'tan are just larking around holding back their real power as even if they die, their body gets phased out of there and they just get put back into the repaired form.

they dont fight seriously as they have no interest in conquest- just in eating when theyre hungry or killing for the fun of it

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-10-2007, 16:15
*thinking......thinking.........thought*

Wrong one, sorry. :p I was trying to point out that perhaps C'tan shouldn't fluffwise be represented in the game if they are more powerful than Primarchs, who are not in the game because *many people* (not you or me) would say they would be overpowered. Not to mention that GW can't do them justice as in-game units.

Rockerfella
12-10-2007, 16:20
Ahhhhm I see. Cheers for the correction!
I guess its the riddle and eternal conundrum that GW seem to love. The whole 'We'll make one for one, but not for the other' type of thing.

Maybe the C'tan are poorly represented in the game? I don't know. I've heard it claimed that the C'tan of today are underpowered and weak because they are starving, compared to the way they were when they fought the ancient Eldar.

Who knows!!

Captain Stern
12-10-2007, 18:55
Actually I did provide a few quotes (and, to my credit, at no point did i attempt to prove the validity of a theory with 'from a GW publication' at the end). Besides, some things are clearly implied and don't need "this is like so" quotations to prove their true (unless you want an argument, that is). Oh, by the way, I was thinking, can you provide any evidence to support the claim Primarchs were NOT gifted with super human intellects?

You two seem to think that if you use extremely annoying big fonts, flood the thread with your posts (which rarely illuminate the discussion), put words in the mouth of your opponent, and carry out character assasinations (and on a completely unrelated thread mind you) on the people who disagree with you you'll appear as the winners of the argument. It's pretty pathetic. It's called bully tactics.

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-10-2007, 20:24
How about this: start a different thread about whether or not Ferrus Manus killed a C'tan. Then you can do all the flaming, arguing, insulting, and /ignoring you want. And I don't have to listen! :D

We all win!

khan
12-10-2007, 20:35
Commander shadowsun!

He wiped out a whole tyranid splinter fleet without the loss of a single vessel!

Witchfire
12-10-2007, 20:37
Actually I did provide a few quotes (and, to my credit, at no point did i attempt to prove the validity of a theory with 'from a GW publication' at the end). Besides, some things are clearly implied and don't need "this is like so" quotations to prove their true (unless you want an argument, that is). Oh, by the way, I was thinking, can you provide any evidence to support the claim Primarchs were NOT gifted with super human intellects?

You two seem to think that if you use extremely annoying big fonts, flood the thread with your posts (which rarely illuminate the discussion), put words in the mouth of your opponent, and carry out character assasinations (and on a completely unrelated thread mind you) on the people who disagree with you you'll appear as the winners of the argument. It's pretty pathetic. It's called bully tactics.

10 reasons why the primarchs did not have superhuman intellects

1.)- mortarion trusts typhus's idea that they dont need navigators and ends up forced to convert to nurgle in the warp.

2.)- Lorgar constantly worships the emperor regardless of the emperor's protest, lorgar cant accept that the emperor is not a divine being

3.)- Corax clones his legion with disastrous consequences, to this date raven guard is not allowed to make sucessor chapters

4.)- Horus lets down the sheilds round his ship to let the emperor have a pop at him

5.)- Magnus continues sorcery until the emperor has to take action, despite warnings.

6.)- Corax flies a one man ship into the eye of terror

7.)- leman russ challenges the emperor to a drinking contest

8.)- angron takes on an entire company of grey knights armed with daemon killing gear and gets banished

9.)- Jagahati khan races into the webway- a realm humans know little aboout but the eldsr are experts in- and is never seen again

10.)- drop site massacre, need i say any more?

and captain stern- if you are going to insist apon planet sized assumptions and claim that primarchs killed c'tan despite extensive codex and index astartes quoting, and claim that all quotes are unverified and that the night haunter may have changed his dress style being influenced by imperial fashion then dont suddenly wonder why everyone is disagreeing with your theories.

There is no conspiracy against you but your assumptions are so vast and ungrounded in the fluff that dont bitch and moan when everyone disagrees with you and you refuse to accept it.

But if you chose to be blind i cannot force you to see :cries:

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-10-2007, 20:47
I'd like to protest #7. Leman Russ had every single reason to believe he would win that one. He had no idea that he was facing the Emperor.

EDIT: Did I just support Russ? Wow. Hope no rumors get out about me thinking he's cooler than Sanguinius or something stupid.:P

Witchfire
12-10-2007, 20:51
I'd like to protest #7. Leman Russ had every single reason to believe he would win that one. He had no idea that he was facing the Emperor.

EDIT: Did I just support Russ? Wow. Hope no rumors get out about me thinking he's cooler than Sanguinius or something stupid.:P

fair enough, but binge drinking no matter whether you win or not is still dumb

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-10-2007, 20:54
fair enough, but binge drinking no matter whether you win or not is still dumb

...granted. Not a drinker myself. But hey, he can hold his liquor, he's a Primarch! :D

Chaplain Dionitas
12-10-2007, 21:03
Those are character flaws. Having a Superhuman intellect is different. In every story you read about the primarchs being discovered on their worlds, it describes them is learning the language and traditions remarkably quick.


Disclaimer: I am currently at work (Shirking no less) and do not have a codex handy(or any 40k material for that matter)

Witchfire
12-10-2007, 21:26
Those are character flaws. Having a Superhuman intellect is different. In every story you read about the primarchs being discovered on their worlds, it describes them is learning the language and traditions remarkably quick.


Disclaimer: I am currently at work (Shirking no less) and do not have a codex handy(or any 40k material for that matter)

either way- the mental capacities of the primarchs are not as captain stern so brashly states- ''beyond the mental capacities of any eldar''. FULL STOP

Chaplain Dionitas
12-10-2007, 21:29
either way- the mental capacities of the primarchs are not as captain stern so brashly states- ''beyond the mental capacities of any eldar''. FULL STOP


QFT. I can agree with that. Eldrad is possibly the best psyker in the 40k universe(Living anyway).

Witchfire
12-10-2007, 21:35
QFT. I can agree with that. Eldrad is possibly the best psyker in the 40k universe(Living anyway).

then we are in agreement, my list was to prove that the primarchs are not flawless, as one member who knows who he is seems to think

Captain Stern
12-10-2007, 22:22
Those are character flaws. Having a Superhuman intellect is different. In every story you read about the primarchs being discovered on their worlds, it describes them is learning the language and traditions remarkably quick.


I can't believe I didn't think to use that example, found in almost every IA Article and space marine codex, as proof of their super-human intellects. At least now, with the logic finally thrown in your face, we can finally settle the argument (though I am bracing myself incase. I've got a funny feeling, ya know?).


then we are in agreement, my list was to prove that the primarchs are not flawless, as one member who knows who he is seems to think


Putting words in my mouth again. You know full well that I never stated they were flawless.


either way- the mental capacities of the primarchs are not as captain stern so brashly states- ''beyond the mental capacities of any eldar''. FULL STOP

I'll try not to be so 'brash' from now on :rolleyes: I gave you examples to support why I thought this was so (I have more if you're interested?). You seem to have conveniently forgotten about them. Can you imagine how frustrating it would be to be locked in a debate with someone who disregards your points when they become inconvenient? Why, the discussion, turning quickly into an argument, would last forever. Oh no! this seems to be exactly the situation I find myself in... :eek:

Oh, and you still seem to be incapable of laying off the big font, I see...


There is no conspiracy against you but your assumptions are so vast and ungrounded in the fluff that dont bitch and moan when everyone disagrees with you and you refuse to accept it.

It's just you and rockerfella as far as I can see. I have no problem with people who disagree with my 'theories' (that's all I've ever said they were). The difference is, every one else has the maturity to not act like a c*ck when they disagree with me.

To finish on a brighter note, I would be interested in starting a thread discussing a hypothetical primarch vs. C'Tan battle (it's not fair that we hijacked this thread), in which we could be civil and reply to each others points carefuly and, most importantly, with politeness. What do you think?

Witchfire
12-10-2007, 22:36
I can't believe I didn't think to use that example, found in almost every IA Article and space marine codex, as proof of their super-human intellects. At least now, with the logic finally thrown in your face, we can finally settle the argument (though I am bracing myself incase. I've got a funny feeling, ya know?).



Putting words in my mouth again. You know full well that I never stated they were flawless.



I'll try not to be so 'brash' from now on :rolleyes: I gave you examples to support why I thought this was so (I have more if you're interested?). You seem to have conveniently forgotten about them. Can you imagine how frustrating it would be to be locked in a debate with someone who disregards your points when they become inconvenient? Why, the discussion, turning quickly into an argument, would last forever. Oh no! this seems to be exactly the situation I find myself in... :eek:

Oh, and you still seem to be incapable of laying off the big font, I see...



It's just you and rockerfella as far as I can see. I have no problem with people who disagree with my 'theories' (that's all I've ever said they were). The difference is, every one else has the maturity to not act like a c*ck when they disagree with me.

To finish on a brighter note, I would be interested in starting a thread discussing a hypothetical primarch vs. C'Tan battle (it's not fair that we hijacked this thread), in which we could be civil and reply to each others points carefuly and, most importantly, with politeness. What do you think?


sounds like a good idea, as the c'tan were in stasis for the entire HH there cannot have been any conflict but hypothetically sounds good

Imperialis_Dominatus
13-10-2007, 00:40
How about this: start a different thread about whether or not Ferrus Manus killed a C'tan. Then you can do all the flaming, arguing, insulting, and /ignoring you want. And I don't have to listen! :D

We all win!

I knew you all would come around eventually.

Rockerfella
13-10-2007, 10:13
*sighs*

Well, i'm tempted to call the Mods in all fairness. I could easily claim i've been, thus far and by Stern no less, called a C*ck...and an A**. If thats not bullying, then what is. I'm pleased, however, that regardless of my alledged character flaws, I have never once on this thread stooped to the bottom feeder level of calling someone an infantile name.

On with the show. Remember the conversation between Fulgrim and Eldrad? I pretty much thought that Eldrads mental agility and obvious intellect made him dominate that conversation, with subtle manipulation etc. WHen Fulgrim was beating his chest, grunting and whistling, Eldrad appeared like a beacon of shining intellect in comparison. Just my interpretation mind.

As for the C'tan vs Primarch thread? Yeah.. I agree. ONWARDS! :)

stormblade
13-10-2007, 10:17
10 reasons why the primarchs did not have superhuman intellects

1.)- mortarion trusts typhus's idea that they dont need navigators and ends up forced to convert to nurgle in the warp.

2.)- Lorgar constantly worships the emperor regardless of the emperor's protest, lorgar cant accept that the emperor is not a divine being

3.)- Corax clones his legion with disastrous consequences, to this date raven guard is not allowed to make sucessor chapters

4.)- Horus lets down the sheilds round his ship to let the emperor have a pop at him

5.)- Magnus continues sorcery until the emperor has to take action, despite warnings.

6.)- Corax flies a one man ship into the eye of terror

7.)- leman russ challenges the emperor to a drinking contest

8.)- angron takes on an entire company of grey knights armed with daemon killing gear and gets banished

9.)- Jagahati khan races into the webway- a realm humans know little aboout but the eldsr are experts in- and is never seen again

10.)- drop site massacre, need i say any more?


- You are actually arguing the capacity of the primarchs to be omniscient not intellectually superior which indicates towards faulty reasoning, besides some of this points are wrong and are submissive to gross misinterpretation by being taken out of context.

And Russ won the drinking competition if I am not mistaken.

stormblade
13-10-2007, 10:19
QFT. I can agree with that. Eldrad is possibly the best psyker in the 40k universe(Living anyway).

- Eldrad isn't living any more by the way.

Witchfire
13-10-2007, 11:51
- You are actually arguing the capacity of the primarchs to be omniscient not intellectually superior which indicates towards faulty reasoning, besides some of this points are wrong and are submissive to gross misinterpretation by being taken out of context.

And Russ won the drinking competition if I am not mistaken.

it was a draw, they had a eating contest, a drinking contest and a fight- which the E won.

Surgency
13-10-2007, 12:41
Who do you think was the single greatest strategist and/or tactician of all time? Anyone at all from any race.

Bob, from Accounting, on nameless planet #1746.

Unfortunately, Bob was a ministorum adept, and as such was never allowed to show that he was actually good at strategic thinking. Also, there was that messy little business of a tyranid horde and exterminatus and all that when bob was only 23, thus ending what would have been a very promising career.

mistformsquirrel
13-10-2007, 12:43
Bob, from Accounting, on nameless planet #1746.

Unfortunately, Bob was a ministorum adept, and as such was never allowed to show that he was actually good at strategic thinking. Also, there was that messy little business of a tyranid horde and exterminatus and all that when bob was only 23, thus ending what would have been a very promising career.

Hah, you win the prize! <,<;

With that, I hereby sign this writ, and consign a billion posts to damnation.