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neale
26-09-2007, 16:41
Hi and thanks in advance for your help. I have been doing fantasy for 17 years but have had absolutely no 40K experience. I have just recently required 80 genestealers and a broodlord model and i am asking can i use these to form a tyranid army or is this the equivilant of trying to use, like 4 rare choices in fantasy or 3 lords etc. I really know nothing about 40K so sorry for asking what may be a stupid question. Finally approx what kind of points would this equate to, just vaguely. Many thanks in advance.

LawrencePhillips
26-09-2007, 16:46
Nope. In 40K you need 1 HQ and 2 Troops

HQ: Broodlord and 5-11 stealers
Troops: is 6-12 (maybe more) stealers

So you have a legal starting army, but an army of just stealers will fail miserably, 2 full stregth units and the broodlord's unit is more than enough.

Un upgraded stealers are 16 points each, the broodlord is 70. You do the maths

so sell the rest of them on

Stingray_tm
26-09-2007, 16:49
Hi and thanks in advance for your help. I have been doing fantasy for 17 years but have had absolutely no 40K experience. I have just recently required 80 genestealers and a broodlord model and i am asking can i use these to form a tyranid army or is this the equivilant of trying to use, like 4 rare choices in fantasy or 3 lords etc. I really know nothing about 40K so sorry for asking what may be a stupid question. Finally approx what kind of points would this equate to, just vaguely. Many thanks in advance.

You catually can make a fully legal force with 1 HQ and 6 Troop selections with these models. Using the usual Genestealer build. this force would be about 1700 points.

There is no more room left. You can cram maybe two or three additional Stealers into that army, more is not possible.

I think nobody actually tried to field that amount of Genestealers. I guess it depends on the enemy, it could be a total desaster one way or the other.

BajsArne
26-09-2007, 16:53
Hey with enough terrain and not too many enemy gravtanks I think 80 genestealers could be pretty scary.

neale
26-09-2007, 16:54
Ok thanks for your rapid responses. Sounds like the book is the next step and them some serious reading of rules etc. Cheers again.

Grazzy
26-09-2007, 16:59
Yes, stealer shock is a viable army. Click here (http://www.dakkadakka.com/CommunityForums/tabid/56/forumid/17/postid/179776/view/topic/Default.aspx) for a player winning the chicage GT tournament with that sort of list. This was against incredibly hard lists.

UncleCrazy
26-09-2007, 17:03
by the way the reason why it would be a hard army to win with is that Stealer saves are poo. Even when you up grade them.

But that being said I see that you could have more than enough wins if you are a good player. If up grades you could have a nice 1500 pts army.

16 x 80 = 1280

1280 + 70 = 1350

This is before upgrades. You bought someones 1500ts army.

By the way it would be a very scary army to face, here is the reason why. 80 stealers would be next to imposible to kill in the first 2 turns of the game. And on turn 3 your Stealers hit H2H. Once they are in H2H they can not be shot. They will do so much damge in H2H they should be able to rip an army up pretty good. They can be beaten but it does take a lot of force to kill them.

TheOverlord
26-09-2007, 17:08
fought 30 stealers the other day on a campaign with a force 3k in size... I was sweating like hell when they were 1 inch away from me in the first turn from a charge. (odd range in my club, you start less or exactly than 18" away in the first turn O_o)

Killed them all in the next turn with bolter and plasma fire. Well all except 1. Lucky bastich.

AmBlam
26-09-2007, 17:33
If an army could be made of one unit stealers would be it.

Take carapace. There doesn't seem to be many ap 4 weapons.

ap5 will allow full save and ap3 is not very efficient!

Brother Loki
26-09-2007, 17:36
Yes Overlord, but imagine if that had been 80 'stealers 1 inch away from you in turn 1, and you'd only managed to kill 30 of them. ;)

Marines - crunchy on the outside, chewy on the inside.

Anyway, to the OP, you can certainly build an army round a plethora of genestealers - they count as troops (40k's equivalent of a core unit). 80 might be a few too many, as without some other things in your army I suspect it will get boring fast, but you can certainly use it as the bulk of your army, and get a few things to give you some variety - monstrous creatures, ranged attack 'nids etc.

Bunnahabhain
26-09-2007, 21:07
Genestealers are just plain nasty. Absolutely no enemy wants to end up in combat with them. The best comparison I can think of is having your entire army with several units of Chosen knights of chaos lined up in charge range. Directly behind your regiments...

A horde of them is a viable, but boring army, but is a very good core for a very big and nasty army.

max the dog
26-09-2007, 21:57
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max the dog
26-09-2007, 22:09
I've fielded an all genestealer force many times and it's a very winning army if the scenario and battle field favor's it. You'll need lots of line of sight blocking terrain and few objectives to capture. But you're screwed if your opponents army is very fast, has lots of skimmers, shoots a lot, you have to capture and hold an objective, and the battlefield has very little terrain to hide behind.
But you do have the begining of a very potent anti-MEQ army. This is what I'd do to improve and why.

1 I'd give them all extended carapace and fleshooks. Bolter fire will kill them in droves if they don't get an armor save. Extended carapace will give them a 50% chance to survive it when wounded rather than a 100% chance of getting killed by it. Fleshooks are another must have because it allows you to not go last if you charge someone in cover. Don't bother with any other upgrade.

2 Use genestealers 4 broods of 8 to 12. They're best used to massacre a unit and then move into contact with another nearby unit. If you don't have enough they won't be able to do it.

3 Get 2 broods of 12 to 32 termagaunts. Use the big brood to run forward and screen the genestealers from enemy fire. The genestealers always get targeted first (and for a very good reason) but at 3 times the cost you have to do everything you can do to save them. Use a smaller brood of termagants as your close range skimmer killer unit. Give them toxin sacks and have them shoot at anything fast. With the upgrade they can take down most light vehicle and almost any skimmer. They're much more expensive with the upgrade but nobody will shoot them as long as there is a genestealer on the table.

4 Get a Hive Tyrant and put wings and warp field on it. The only thing that gets shot at more than genestealers is a winged tyrant. PEOPLE FEAR IT!!!!! Your opponents weapons that will pierce the extened carapace armor of your genestealers is going to be too busy trying to do something about the tyrant to shoot at your genestealers. And the tyrant can take it. Plus he provides forward synapse and even Ld10 genestealers can benifit from synapse.

5 Get a unit of warriors and twin-link their guns. I recomend giving one a venom cannon and the rest devourers. That combo puts out devestating amounts of firepower to infantry. Consider deathspitters if you're worried about skimmers but by all means twin link the guns. Just remember to keep this unit shooting and out of close combat.

6 Get at least 1 carnifex. Two would be better but you need at least one. Leave the close combat up to the genestealers and have these beasts shoot. The classic shooting combo is either a dakkafex (enhanced senses and 2 twin linked devourers) or a sniperfex (enhanced senses, barbed strangler and venom cannon). Use the sniperfex primarily to kill enemy vehicles and the dakkafex soften up infantry so the genestealers can take eat them in one bite.

Bregalad
26-09-2007, 22:26
A pure genestealer army is extreme,possible but extreme.
Have a look at the Tyranid Tactica to get an idea of how Tyranids work:
http://warseer.com/forums/40k-tactics/6082-tactica-nids.html

Kroxigore
26-09-2007, 22:50
An army entirely built of genestealers is very nasty indeed. The comparisson with those chosen knights is pretty accurate concerning the CC abilities of genestealers. The main difference though is, that genestealers are pretty cheap for what they can do in CC, but they fall quite quickly to enemy fire.
In my oppinion genestealers are the best CC unit in the game for several reasons:
-They have rending and weapon skill 6. That makes them pretty dangerous against all tough units like space marines and they also beat the crap out of hordes (though Hormagaunts might be better in some cases, depends).
-They hit first against nearly all other units. In 40k you always go by initiative order, even if it is the first round in combat. Their initiative of 6 is the highest you can get in the game for units of more than one model.
The combination of hitting really hard and hitting first even makes them quite resilient in CC, as there is usually not much left to hit back.
Anyways, an army like that would be playable, but still kind of boring to play, I guess.

Torga_DW
26-09-2007, 22:56
I say ally them with imperial guard and create a 'genestealer cult' army. =)

Jester Boy
26-09-2007, 23:08
I too have faced a lot of stealers at once, I thought my deathguard were gonners when they were within charge range without taking a shot. But being so close meant in my shooting phase bolters tore through most of them and deamons popped up and ate the rest. I was lucky with my rolls but it goes to show how one way or the other they can go.

ReveredChaplainDrake
26-09-2007, 23:33
A bit of a rebouttal. Max has the right idea, but I'll put in my own $0.02.

First of all, I've never seen a Broodlord + Retinue pay his points back as anything other than a fire magnet. The BL is just too slow to be effective, and when all Stealers can be given Scuttling (see below) Infiltration becomes pretty moot, and even a step backwards. Too many players upgrade their BL out the nose like he's the best thing since Rending Assault Cannons. But really the BL is just a lead weight used to scare people. Anything the BL kills should be gravy. Once you get around the mental block that the BL will die a pretty pathetic death, usually before he even gets his hands dirty, then you can begin making Stealer-based lists.


1 I'd give them all extended carapace and fleshooks. Bolter fire will kill them in droves if they don't get an armor save. Extended carapace will give them a 50% chance to survive it when wounded rather than a 100% chance of getting killed by it. Fleshooks are another must have because it allows you to not go last if you charge someone in cover. Don't bother with any other upgrade. I wouldn't give Stealers the Flesh Hooks. There are easier ways to take care of enemies in cover than to devote precious Genestealers on them. (And if you must, a Catalyst Zoanthrope or Bonesword Flyrant pretty much does the same thing.) Tyranid shooting is generally the answer. Crap AP really doesn't matter when the enemy's save isn't stooping lower than about a +4 anyway. Just force those saves and, barring you're shooting at Pathfinders, you should rack up some decent casualties.

Carapace isn't really that useful IMO because AP4-3 weapons are ever-plentiful in these newer codecies (K-Sons and Heavy Bolters are some big culprits). So you're probably not saving from shots coming at them anyway. If your main force is Stealers, it could be worth it, but I only use one unit of 8, which is very different from hinging an army off of them.

However, I always take Scuttling. It's the best 'Stealer morph ever. You move forward before the game starts, you start on the table in Escalation (though you were going to start out anyway, it's useful in Tournaments where only a certain number of units can come out), and you scare an opponent a lot more for a small points investment. But again, I use my 'Stealers as one-off shock units, so this may fit my style better than yours.


2 Use genestealers 4 broods of 8 to 12. They're best used to massacre a unit and then move into contact with another nearby unit. If you don't have enough they won't be able to do it. Actually it's not that good to massacre straight from one unit to the other. Granted it's better than getting caught in the open, the better option is to hit the enemy, hold them down, and finish them off in the opponent's Assault Phase, letting you charge again. This is pretty much what you want to do with every Tyranid unit you have, but it's especially important for Genestealers.

Also, Rending is not the be-all-end-all of CC. Anybody who plays Harlequins could tell you that about half the damage you do (except against vehicles) is with hits that don't rend but wound anyway, as there are a lot more of those. CC Rending is only really useful against land tanks and monsters because just a few rends actually can rip open a whole large model.


3 Get 2 broods of 12 to 32 termagaunts. Use the big brood to run forward and screen the genestealers from enemy fire. The genestealers always get targeted first (and for a very good reason) but at 3 times the cost you have to do everything you can do to save them. Use a smaller brood of termagants as your close range skimmer killer unit. Give them toxin sacks and have them shoot at anything fast. With the upgrade they can take down most light vehicle and almost any skimmer. They're much more expensive with the upgrade but nobody will shoot them as long as there is a genestealer on the table. This is a totally different playstyle than a Stealer Blitz. The Stealer Blitz, which the OP was aiming for in an army, gets its firepower from Tyrants (HQ), Warriors (Elite, HQ & Fast) and Carnifexes (Elite & Heavy). These units are very efficient shooters, as far as Tyranids go, and can carry their weight in CC if absolutely necessary. Which is why you usually see a lot of the "better" Tyranid players fielding a hybrid Mechabugzilla / Stealer Blitz. Any amount of Gaunts pretty much forces you to commit some of your army to Synapse, which is wasteful in a Stealer army.


4 Get a Hive Tyrant and put wings and warp field on it. The only thing that gets shot at more than genestealers is a winged tyrant. PEOPLE FEAR IT!!!!! Your opponents weapons that will pierce the extened carapace armor of your genestealers is going to be too busy trying to do something about the tyrant to shoot at your genestealers. And the tyrant can take it. Plus he provides forward synapse and even Ld10 genestealers can benifit from synapse. While they can benefit from Synapse, it's not something I'd bank on. Not that you should avoid it, though. Synapse on Stealers isn't half as important as a bunch of Stealers hanging around a Flying Tyrant that can take a 12-shot dump on any unit it wants.


5 Get a unit of warriors and twin-link their guns. I recomend giving one a venom cannon and the rest devourers. That combo puts out devestating amounts of firepower to infantry. Consider deathspitters if you're worried about skimmers but by all means twin link the guns. Just remember to keep this unit shooting and out of close combat.

6 Get at least 1 carnifex. Two would be better but you need at least one. Leave the close combat up to the genestealers and have these beasts shoot. The classic shooting combo is either a dakkafex (enhanced senses and 2 twin linked devourers) or a sniperfex (enhanced senses, barbed strangler and venom cannon). Use the sniperfex primarily to kill enemy vehicles and the dakkafex soften up infantry so the genestealers can take eat them in one bite. These next two comments basically overlap. The only real difference is that Warriors are wasteful. Without a lot of Gaunts in your army, the primary purpose of Warriors (cheap Synapse) is forfeited. Carnifexes are tougher, immune to natural Instant Death and their shots are much stronger and potentially longer-ranged, making Carnfexes often superior to Warriors for their combat effects.

The exception to this is Winged Warriors with guns. This is because Winged Warriors can put a decent amount of shots off for a Fast Attack Tyranid unit, as opposed to an Elite or an HQ, so as not to cut down on your Fex / Tyrant count. That, and their large move makes weapons that otherwise would be short-ranged on a foot unit into immediately viable threats, like TLed Devourers. Consider 3 broods of 3 Flying Warriors w/ TLed Devs, 3 Dakkafexes, 3 Gunfexes, and 2 Dakka-Tyrants, all in the same list. It's a pretty extreme example, but it makes the point.

max the dog
27-09-2007, 04:40
The reveredchampiondrake has some good counter points and I do agree with a lot of what he says. Of course I agree stronger with what I said. A pure genestealer army that consists of nothing but genestealers is a one trick pony. Good for close combat and nothing else. To have a winning army you need something else to do what the primary part of your army can't. You need a backup in case close combat doesn't work out too well.

But here's some basic advice and observations when playing tyranids; fear is your friend. A lot of players are scared of tyranids, scared of what they can do, how tough they are to kill, how they never ever run away, how many of them can be fielded, and how fast they are. All of this is 100% true. The only army in the game that can field an army where 100% of the models have rending is the tyranids. Space marine armies fear that ability and I've had them form up into a Imp guard like gun line 2" from the board edge and never leave it. A fex with a 2+ save, 7 toughness, and 5 wounds is a tough monster to kill. I've had opponents obsess over killing them and end up loosing the game because they devoted so much firepower into killing 200 points worth of model instead of the 1000 points that is almost in charge range. If you play your nids well you may never ever roll a leadership check. Synapse will ensure your army stays in the fight where you want it. Your army will never be broken, never be pinned, and never run away. But once your synapse creatures are killed off or out of range everything is different. Gaunts will be broken and run off if you're able to control them in the first place. Speaking of Gaunts, I own 140+ fully painted and am seriously thinking of getting the big Tyranid Endless Swarm box. Only the Imperial guard can field more models and usually a gaunt player will still outnumber them. I can't tell you how many times I've had players mentally give up during deployment when they counted models and realised they were outnumbered 3 to 1 or worse. We also have the fastest moving army in the game. Think of it; nearly everyone having fleet, every model rolls 3 dice to move through cove, and lots of effective units with wings. Only a skimmer army moves faster.

Of course we do have some serious weaknesses; Most of our models will have a crappy save. Anything with better than a 5+ is expensive. We aren't going to win any shooting contest (except as the target). While we can shoot the vast majority of our army has a 3+ ballistic skill. Our HQ units are very expensive and indipensable. Without synapse our army can fall apart very easy. We have no transports. Even with a few upgrades our best units can be the most point expensive models in the game.

Tulun
27-09-2007, 04:55
Hi and thanks in advance for your help. I have been doing fantasy for 17 years but have had absolutely no 40K experience. I have just recently required 80 genestealers and a broodlord model and i am asking can i use these to form a tyranid army or is this the equivilant of trying to use, like 4 rare choices in fantasy or 3 lords etc. I really know nothing about 40K so sorry for asking what may be a stupid question. Finally approx what kind of points would this equate to, just vaguely. Many thanks in advance.

I would say that, considering what you have, you could easily build a good Tyranid list.

You just need to add in some shooting support (in the force of TMCs and Zoanthropes) and you are good to go. in your typical larger game (1500-2k) you could probably get away with only 2-3 TMCs and be absolutely fine (which won't cost you too much to finish your army).

Tyranids are also a more interesting army to start... just avoid Nidzilla ;)

elvinltl
27-09-2007, 06:06
You need a Tyranid Codex!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice inheritance of 80 Genestealers and a BroodLord to start with.

Try horde since you have 80 Genestealers...

HFLep
27-09-2007, 08:41
80 Genestealers and a broodlord is a great start on a Tyranid army. However, as the previous posters said, you should really get a codex to be able to play the codex to its fullest. Despite what some nidzilla players may think, there are more good options in the codex than just monstrous creatures and genestealers.