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Vedar
26-09-2007, 22:47
I play against some pretty good eldar players and since it seemed plague marines might stand a chance against the pesky Harlequins I thought I might run the numbers and see what happens.

I assumed the harlies got the charge (as they almost always do)

10 in number from each side (point cost is about the same)

Plague marines get no upgrades. Harlies have kiss (as they always do)

I'm rounding numbers. 2.1 = 2, 2.5=3, 2.9=3.

I'm favoring attackers if models have a %50 chance to live.

It went something like this.

H=Harlies PM=Plague marines

10 H charge 4 PM die
6 PM attack back 3 H die

7 H attack 3 PM die
3 PM attack 2 H die

5 H attack 2 PM die
1 PM attack 1 H die

4 H kill the last PM

My method I realize favors the attacker more so on the table the marines might do a little better, but it was still worse than I hoped. I guess I won't be leaving my PM unaided to buffer against Harlequins. Though in rhino poping out for rapid fire would be a good thing.

Tulun
26-09-2007, 22:56
Your math is skewed... if 10 Harlies charged, they have 4 attacks each... 40 attacks = 6 rends on average (and a good chance at a 7th). Then the rest of the wounds go through.

A couple plagues might live, but if a full squad of 10 harlies charge, that PM squad should be, nicely put, ****ed.

Smishkun
26-09-2007, 22:58
Blight grenades, no charge bonus

Tulun
26-09-2007, 22:59
Blight grenades, no charge bonus

Fair enough, I forgot about those.

30 attacks is still 5 dead PM, not 4... and that's before the non rends (though that will likely do little lol)

athamas
26-09-2007, 23:06
yeah, if the harlies do charge, it will all be down to rending hits, as they get no S bonus so will bounce if they fluf their rending attacks!

IJW
26-09-2007, 23:35
Blight grenades, no charge bonus


as they get no S bonus so will bounce if they fluf their rending attacks!
Blight Grenades only effect additional Attacks. Furious Charge will still be in effect.

So that's 5 rending hits, plus 15 other hits, five wounds, around two failed saves, for a total of seven dead Plague Marines.

Apoth
26-09-2007, 23:47
I'm getting 5 dead on my calculations. 30 attacks, 20 hit, slightly over three rending. 5 normal attacks still wound, 1.8 wounds after normal saves, .9 wounds after FNP.

So 3.2 (rend) + .9 (normal) = 4ish dead.

IJW
26-09-2007, 23:59
Rending will be on one-in-six of the attacks, not one-in-six of the hits. But I'd forgotten about FnP, that will take it down to 6 kills.

Green Shoes
27-09-2007, 00:01
Rend counts on the to-hits. Out of 30 that would be 5 rends alone.

Vedar
27-09-2007, 01:43
Oops I missed that feel no pain does not work against rending. Dang. Now I have to think up another plan.

elvinltl
27-09-2007, 06:10
Feel no Pain does not work against rending? Interesting...

Rending is subjective, sometimes you score 1 rending and sometimes you score 10 rending.

Smishkun
27-09-2007, 06:17
Your math is skewed... if 10 Harlies charged, they have 4 attacks each... 40 attacks = 6 rends on average (and a good chance at a 7th).


Blight Grenades only effect additional Attacks. Furious Charge will still be in effect.

The attacks is what i was talking about.

Halfpast_Yellow
27-09-2007, 07:18
Obviously PM are not going to be an optimal target for Harlequins to charge out of all the CSM units though.

athamas
27-09-2007, 07:46
Blight Grenades only effect additional Attacks. Furious Charge will still be in effect.

So that's 5 rending hits, plus 15 other hits, five wounds, around two failed saves, for a total of seven dead Plague Marines.



my mistake, but you also need to remember FNP so only 6 dead..

they will have 4 striking back, with 9 attacks...

BattleofLund
27-09-2007, 07:49
Obviously PM are not going to be an optimal target for Harlequins to charge out of all the CSM units though.

Characters? Small units? Defilers?

sebster
27-09-2007, 09:14
Plague marines are good because they have high toughness, good armour and FNP saves. Rending is good because it ignores high toughness, good armour and FNP saves.

Harlequins, or anything with rending basically, are the best weapon for killing plague marines.

Scythe
27-09-2007, 09:20
Plague marines are good because they have high toughness, good armour and FNP saves. Rending is good because it ignores high toughness, good armour and FNP saves.

Harlequins, or anything with rending basically, are the best weapon for killing plague marines.

QFT. The only thing plague marines have going for them are the blight grenades, which are offset by their larger cost (compared to normal chaos marines). Harlies largely ignore the two advantages plague marines have over their normal cousins (T5, FNP), so using them against harlequins is not a good idea.

Smokedog
27-09-2007, 10:06
I just played Eldar versus Nurgle yesterday with plauge marines.
This is what happened:

Nurgle terminators depp striked. Shot at the harlquins (in cover, fortuned) They killed 2 models outright.

I then shot the (doomed) terminators with 11 warpspider + exarch (2 squads) 26 shots, plus 19 shuriken shots and 5 sniper rifles. This killed 2 Terminators! Total!

I then charged them with the harlquins and eldrad., and finished them off, but only just...

Conclusion: nurgle with FNp are even more anoying than Necrons. Infact I would say that hey had better come up with something which make necrosn more ditinct....

Scythe
27-09-2007, 10:17
You do realise terminators with the icon of nurgle do not have FNP (or blight grenades, for that matter), do you? The icon only grants +1T (for a very steep price, I might add). Basic Plague marines are the only selection with FNP.

Smokedog
27-09-2007, 10:24
Wait - I might be getting confused, - they may not have been using FNP, but the other 3 plauge marine squads were, which was very annoying... either way the army is a LOT tougher now...

Scythe
27-09-2007, 10:45
Yeah, plague marines have become rather resilient. But if you hit them with power weapons or S10 weaponry, it makes no difference. And Harlies are ideal to kill them. ;)

Smishkun
27-09-2007, 13:52
But any respectable PM squad should be wielding enough plasma to even up the odds before the harlies make the charge. Unless they are unlucky.

Scythe
27-09-2007, 13:57
Plasma is hardly of much use against Harlequins. The only advantage it gives you over a bolter is it wounds on 2+ instead of 3+ (not considering the chance of the plasma blowing up in their face).

leonmallett
27-09-2007, 14:18
Feel no Pain does not work against rending? Interesting...

Rending is subjective, sometimes you score 1 rending and sometimes you score 10 rending.


Only close combat rending, mind you - not shooty rending. ;)

DavicusPrime
27-09-2007, 15:33
Only close combat rending, mind you - not shooty rending. ;)

That was something I figured out just last night... The FnP rule only is voided by ranged attacks that cause Instant Death, and melee attacks that deny an armor save.

So an AssCannon won't void FnP but a melta, KraK Missile, Lascannon or any other S8 hit will do the trick.

Take that you Tornado addicts!

-DavicusPrime

DavicusPrime
27-09-2007, 16:12
There really isn't any unit I would happily take a charge from Harlies with. Harliquins' advantage is in their ability to get the charge. If you take that away from them, then you've got a chance.

The best thing I've found to defeat Harlies is to stay embarked in a vehicle to deny them the charge. Using Codex Marines, I was able to counter them with a combination of a razorback embarked tactical squad and a landspeeder. The razor got the marines in close keeping the squad safe from assault, then between the Hvy bolters in the vehicles and the squad's flamer and bolters, the harlies were removed from the table. Plague Marines in a rhino would benfit from this tactic. If the Harlies are left vulnerable to ranged fire their advantages are lost.

Sorry, but the only way to stop harlies is through tactics, not through statlines and special abilities.

-DavicusPrime

Smokedog
27-09-2007, 17:04
i have to say that tyrus has a coupe nasty spells that make harlequins go pop too!

Good job they are short range....

Grazzy
27-09-2007, 17:09
I think we are all agreed that harlies are very good against PM. However, most competative eldar players use mech lists and so use falcons to transport their harlies. Can someone do the math of how 6 harlies versus plague marines would work (with the harlies having the charge and having kisses)?

IJW
27-09-2007, 17:29
The razor got the marines in close keeping the squad safe from assault
Why didn't the Eldar player charge the Razorback? It's pretty easy to take them down using Kisses.

Drongol
27-09-2007, 17:33
It's fairly simple, assuming that we abstract things slightly.

6 Harlequins will attack 18 times, causing 3 rending wounds. They will hit another 15 times, wound roughly twice, and cause a third of a wound on the unit. In other words, 3 wounds on the Plaguemarines.

21 attacks back will hit 10.5 times and cause roughly 7 wounds, leaving 4-5 Harlequins dead.

Of course, any Eldar player worth his or her salt would have used 2 units of Harlequins to engage a full 10 Plaguemarines and/or would have utilized shooting to whittle those numbers down, but 6 Harlequins do not defeat 10 Plague Marines on average rolls.

Drongol

DavicusPrime
27-09-2007, 17:45
Why didn't the Eldar player charge the Razorback? It's pretty easy to take them down using Kisses.

Bad luck and timing really. It was also a small unit, I think it started out as 6 Harlies and had lost one by that point. It should be noted the harlies had just finished slaughtering a devastator squad the previous turn. My attack on them was an attempted counter assault that actually worked.

So maybe the tactic needs a decoy unit to help you get in position?

-DavicusPrime

IJW
27-09-2007, 17:56
6 Harlequins will attack 18 times, causing 3 rending wounds. They will hit another 15 times, wound roughly twice, and cause a third of a wound on the unit. In other words, 3 wounds on the Plaguemarines.
That's 18 hits out of 18 Attacks...

18 Attacks
3 Rending hits
Plus 9 normal hits = 6 wounds = 4 unsaved = 2 kills

So the Harlequins kill 5 on the charge.


So maybe the tactic needs a decoy unit to help you get in position?
OK, that makes it all clear! Decoy units can work quite well and drive-by Flamers are particularly nasty...

sebster
27-09-2007, 18:00
It's fairly simple, assuming that we abstract things slightly.

6 Harlequins will attack 18 times, causing 3 rending wounds. They will hit another 15 times, wound roughly twice, and cause a third of a wound on the unit. In other words, 3 wounds on the Plaguemarines.

21 attacks back will hit 10.5 times and cause roughly 7 wounds, leaving 4-5 Harlequins dead.

Of course, any Eldar player worth his or her salt would have used 2 units of Harlequins to engage a full 10 Plaguemarines and/or would have utilized shooting to whittle those numbers down, but 6 Harlequins do not defeat 10 Plague Marines on average rolls.

Drongol

Why have you assumed the plague marines get a bonus attack for charging?

Without the bonus attack they've only got 14 attacks, which drops their expected kills inflicted down to 3. Still enough to give them advantage, but not quite as cleanly.

x-esiv-4c
27-09-2007, 18:00
If you are getting charged by harlies, something went wrong :)

dOOHICKY
27-09-2007, 18:12
Honestly, if I saw a unit of 10 Harlies within 18" of my Plaguemarines (Max Charge range) I would be stepping forward and double tapping into them!

That means they will be 12" away (Or less) Pretty likely to pass Veil of Tears so 14 bolter shots on them.
That's 4 or 5 Dead Harlies!

Math Hammer does have it's place and that is to let you know what you should do in a situation, but getting into them situations?? That's a different thing altogether.

malisteen
27-09-2007, 18:48
why no shooting? If it's 10 quins, they aren't being transported. Their max charge range is 18", so the plagues should be able to move forward and get in one good rapid fire before the harlies charge. At that range, the sight role should be fairly safe.

sebster
28-09-2007, 03:02
That's 18 hits out of 18 Attacks...

18 Attacks
3 Rending hits
Plus 9 normal hits = 6 wounds = 4 unsaved = 2 kills

So the Harlequins kill 5 on the charge.

Nah, even with furious charge theyíre only wounding with 1 hit out of 3. And youíve got 2/3 of their attacks beating armour, when itís 1/3. So with 18 attacks youíll have 3 rends and 9 other hits. Of those hits 3 will wound (when charging, otherwise itís 1.5). Of those wounds, 1 will beat armour, which is as likely as not to get past the FNP check. So itís 3 rending kills and 0.5 other kills.

When taking out something as tough as plague marines, itís all about the rending. Fortunately thatís generally going to be enough, if your harlie unit is reasonably close in points to the plague marine unit.



If you are getting charged by harlies, something went wrong :)

If youíre in melee with harlequins with anything other than a large unit of cheap wounds (conscripts, gaunts) something has gone wrong.

But most of the time, harlies have fleet and move through cover so you generally have to accept theyíre going to charge you at least as often as you charge them. Moving up and double tapping them at close range is a lot simpler to pull off than charging them, and generally a lot more effective.

knighthawke70
28-09-2007, 04:04
This Guy Is A *****

Smishkun
28-09-2007, 06:18
This Guy Is A *****-lol
So why isnt plasma good against harlies? they have invuln? if so my mistake.

Scythe
28-09-2007, 09:14
That was something I figured out just last night... The FnP rule only is voided by ranged attacks that cause Instant Death, and melee attacks that deny an armor save.

So an AssCannon won't void FnP but a melta, KraK Missile, Lascannon or any other S8 hit will do the trick.

Take that you Tornado addicts!

-DavicusPrime

Actually, S8 won't do the trick either. The plague marines T5 now counts for instant dead (as it is no longer an upgrade, but just included in the profile). You'd need S10 ranged attacks to ignore FNP.


-lol
So why isnt plasma good against harlies? they have invuln? if so my mistake.

Yes, they do. Plasma isn't terrible, but a bolter or flamer is about as effective. Your AP2 is wasted.

Smokedog
28-09-2007, 09:20
Are you sure they are no T4(5).... I seem to rememebr killing them with my firedragons...

IJW
28-09-2007, 09:22
Nah, even with furious charge theyíre only wounding with 1 hit out of 3. And youíve got 2/3 of their attacks beating armour, when itís 1/3.
Doh!


Actually, S8 won't do the trick either. The plague marines T5 now counts for instant dead (as it is no longer an upgrade, but just included in the profile).
You might want to look again...

Scythe
28-09-2007, 09:28
I stand corrected... for some reason, I was sure they dropped the T4(5) thing...

Isambard
28-09-2007, 10:18
Lets look at the flip side - 7 normal plague marines in a rhino (worth about the same as the 'Quins).

They drive up and drop out, within 6" so they should be able to see.

We get 7 Plague Marines shooting and the Rhino - giving 14 normal shots and 2 twin-linked ones - 11 hits should be expected.

With a 2/3 chance of wounding and a 2/3 chance of getting through their save we get a kill count of just shy of 5 (lets call it 5 though).

Those 5 harlequins (if they dont run) then shoot and assault. The 5 shots should do nothing, their attacks then doing 2.5 rends (lets say 3) and 7.5 hits (lets say 8). Those 8 hits kill less than half a model, so we ignore them.

The 4 remaining plague marines get 4 hits and do 2 kills, leaving 5 marines and 2 quins for next round.

You can see where this is going, right....

sebster
28-09-2007, 17:26
Lets look at the flip side - 7 normal plague marines in a rhino (worth about the same as the 'Quins).

They drive up and drop out, within 6" so they should be able to see.

We get 7 Plague Marines shooting and the Rhino - giving 14 normal shots and 2 twin-linked ones - 11 hits should be expected.

With a 2/3 chance of wounding and a 2/3 chance of getting through their save we get a kill count of just shy of 5 (lets call it 5 though).

Those 5 harlequins (if they dont run) then shoot and assault. The 5 shots should do nothing, their attacks then doing 2.5 rends (lets say 3) and 7.5 hits (lets say 8). Those 8 hits kill less than half a model, so we ignore them.

The 4 remaining plague marines get 4 hits and do 2 kills, leaving 5 marines and 2 quins for next round.

You can see where this is going, right....

Sure, but once you get to point of talking about piling out of a rhino and rapid firing the harlequins, then you might as well be talking about any MEQ as much as plague marines.