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Lorquas
27-09-2007, 09:40
Hi

I've left my rulebook at home today and just need a quick rule clarified that's come up in a conversation with a mate.

When you use a shield in close combat in your frontal zone it gives a total of +2 armour save. However, is this only if you have a shield and a "Hand Weapon" or can it be a shield and Spear or any other 1 handed weapon?

Thanks

Lorquas

Urgat
27-09-2007, 09:42
only hand weapon.

Crube
27-09-2007, 10:08
The +1 to your save is ony applicable i you are carrying a hand weapon and shield. This does not apply to spears, halberds or anything else...

EvC
27-09-2007, 12:59
Especially not magic hand weapons, if you were wondering ;)

Revlid
27-09-2007, 13:34
As of this edition, you CAN get the HW&S bonus with a Magic Shield.

However, unless you are USING a basic handweapon, no extra save for you!

warlord hack'a
27-09-2007, 14:13
and an orc choppa counts as a hand weapon for these purposes.

Atrahasis
27-09-2007, 14:29
Especially not magic hand weapons, if you were wondering ;)
On the contrary, magical hand weapons do give the bonus, it's just that there aren't many of them in the game (Sword of the Quest et al).

theunwantedbeing
27-09-2007, 17:28
Only things with the rule "hand weapon" and the rule "sheild" get the bonus.
They can be magical or mundane it makes no difference.

People just assume it doesnt work with magic weapons as it didnt last edition and magical hand weapons are few are far between.

Deathknight
27-09-2007, 18:41
Only things with the rule "hand weapon" and the rule "sheild" get the bonus.
They can be magical or mundane it makes no difference.

People just assume it doesnt work with magic weapons as it didnt last edition and magical hand weapons are few are far between.

Under Magical weapons: Magical weapons always ignore any special rules that apply to an ordinary weapon of the same type unless otherwise specified in the desciption of the weapon.

So no bonus, as a magical sword is different than an ordinary sword. Doesn't make sense, but than is GW too....:confused:

Gorbad Ironclaw
27-09-2007, 20:40
But the magic weapon can state that it is a hand weapon. Although the only weapon I can think of that does that is the Grail Sword.

Festus
27-09-2007, 21:31
Well. the Sword of the Quest, to be precise, as Atrahasis already pointed out...

Festus

He Who Is Him
27-09-2007, 22:32
...and the Tomb Guard's Tomb blades

Urgat
27-09-2007, 23:40
But the magic weapon can state that it is a hand weapon. Although the only weapon I can think of that does that is the Grail Sword.

Yes, but even if it's a hand weapon, it ignores the special rules of weapons of the same time, therefore it will ignore the save bonus with shield for hand weapon. Yup, makes no sense, but what the hell, won't be the first time a rule makes no sense in warhammer.

theunwantedbeing
27-09-2007, 23:46
Page 121 of the rulebook doesnt agree with you Urgat.

Urgat
28-09-2007, 00:21
My BRB says you can wear a shield, but doesn't say you get any additional bonus from it, and it says special rules for weapons are gone. I don't see where it doesn't agree with me.

Brodrick
28-09-2007, 02:21
Everything is based on the rules specifically stated in the magical weapon's description. All magical weapons lose the mundane effects of the original weapon unless otherwise stated. For Brets, many of their magical weapons have the exclusion for the mudane effects. Beyond the sword, they have a lance that retains it's mundane effects as well due to the description.

knosstik
28-09-2007, 06:24
i love using hand weapon and shield

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-09-2007, 06:51
Yes, but even if it's a hand weapon, it ignores the special rules of weapons of the same time, therefore it will ignore the save bonus with shield for hand weapon. Yup, makes no sense, but what the hell, won't be the first time a rule makes no sense in warhammer.

No, you got that wrong. It follows all the rules in it's description, so if it says it's a hand weapon, it's a hand weapon. What it doesn't do is use any rules not in it's own rules text, so just because the name is the name of a hand weapon it isn't a hand weapon automatically.

And I did mean the sword of the quest, just got the name wrong :(

Putty
28-09-2007, 09:01
they should just simplify the rule to allow the bonus for any model that is equipped with shield + one handed weapon, irregardless if magical or not.

Da GoBBo
28-09-2007, 10:38
Why? Its not like this is a complicated rule. A weapon doesn't have any rules except for the fact that you can bash with it. Spears also allow you to fight with two ranks, great weapons also give more S, handweapons can also give an as-bonus, magic weapons are "unique" so each have their own set of rules. This set of rules can also state that it follows the rule for spears, or great weapons, or flails, or pistols ... whatever you want. They could have chosen to point these out in the item description, but they chose to refer to the big red book. I don't see a problem with that.

Urgat
28-09-2007, 11:18
No, you got that wrong. It follows all the rules in it's description, so if it says it's a hand weapon, it's a hand weapon. What it doesn't do is use any rules not in it's own rules text, so just because the name is the name of a hand weapon it isn't a hand weapon automatically.

And I did mean the sword of the quest, just got the name wrong :(

Well I got the french book, and it is very clear:
direct translation would give the following:

"Magical weapons always ignore usual special rules of the kind of weapon they belong to unless indicated otherwise in their description.

If that doesn't mean that a magical hand weapon (stated as such, then) ignore the special rules of regular hand weapons, I suppose my understanding of words and sentences belong to another unwordly dimension :eyebrows:

Masque
28-09-2007, 11:32
The Sword of the Quest "May be used as either a hand weapon or a great weapon." Would you suggest it cannot be used two handed to get +2 strength on foot?

Urgat
28-09-2007, 11:36
Don't blame me, blame GW for wording things stupidely :p

Festus
28-09-2007, 14:04
Hi


"Magical weapons always ignore usual special rules of the kind of weapon they belong to unless indicated otherwise in their description.
QED

Festus

Da GoBBo
29-09-2007, 16:37
jup, what it means is that a sword of might for instance doesn't count as handweapon (swords can be handweapons) just because it's called a sword. Only if the rules say it's a handweapon, it follows the rules for handweapons.