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Latro_
27-09-2007, 13:34
This is a factor in normal games of 40k, but i feel is more of a thing potentially in apocalypse.

It strikes me that the side that goes first is at a distinct advantage due the the sheer amount of huge templates possibly involved. e.g. if the side that goes first has 3 baneblades, thats alot of template s9 death right there with the potential to take serious chunks out of the oposing force before they roll a dice. Then factor in the rest of the lascannons and x amout of other guns firing.

Having not read the book yet, there may well be stratagems or something in place to make this less of an issue.

In normal, smaller games of 40k its not so much of a problem, you can generally deploy most of your stuff out of LOS etc. What do you guys think?

IJW
27-09-2007, 13:37
And then half the other player's Reserves turn up and trash you. :)

Don't forget that the second player has been able to look at everything the first player deploys before placing a single model, and can place whatever they want in Reserves.

Hoagiex
27-09-2007, 13:41
In 40k you usually have the same problem. First turn is a killer and can be quite desisive with armies that rely on heavy offensive capability and low defence (like nids having to cross the field or DE having very fragile vehicles, which are hard to hide, etc etc)

My personal biggest issue is that if one side has skimmers or smoke launchers or something, you are just a sitting duck the first turn. A lot of battlefields do not give enough cover, especially for those big skimmers.

Last turn on take and hold- or cleanse-type missions slightly compensates this first turn unfairness.

twj
27-09-2007, 13:41
Oh no!! Apocalypse is broken... etc, etc...

Boring!!

IJW
27-09-2007, 13:43
In 40k you usually have the same problem. First turn is a killer...
In normal 40k it means that you don't have enough scenery on the board.

Hoagiex
27-09-2007, 14:11
Size 3 Area terrain is rare ... (usually one or 2 pieces on the board at a tourney if any at all. All other terrain is just 'models eye' and almost all pieces are too small to hide a raider or wave serpent behind.

Ever tried to hide a full sized skimmer from every possible line of fire?... it's just not gonna happen 95% of the time. And then imagine the skimmer-player has to hide about 1-8 models.

IJW
27-09-2007, 14:17
Tourneys are notoriously low on terrain - 25% is a LOT of the board, and 40k really shouldn't be played with less.

Brother Loki
27-09-2007, 14:25
I agree - using the right amount of terrain almost always negates first turn advantage, especially with 4th editions reliance on mobility and objectives. I usually opt to go second in most games, so I can sieze objectives at the end.

I think Apocalypse has plenty of balancing mechanics to deal with first turn advantage - greater use of reserves, strategems that let you bring reserves on from all 4 table edges etc. If you're worried about losing lots of stuf in turn 1, just don't deploy it.

stecal
27-09-2007, 14:53
remember Apoc is played on a 4x8 table or bigger. A lot of guns will simply be out of range even if they shoot 48"

Brother Loki
27-09-2007, 15:09
Also, objective grabbing is the only victory condition in Apocalypse. Killing stuff is irrelevant, except from the point of view of degrading the enemy's ability to claim objectives.

Raven1
27-09-2007, 15:16
remember Apoc is played on a 4x8 table or bigger. A lot of guns will simply be out of range even if they shoot 48"

i have to agree and was going to bring that up. You a bigger board, that even the big guns wont be able to fire. Even if they move they can't fire leaving the out in the open for a torrent of fire on my turn.
What does that mean? Your first Baneblade moved in order to fire and on my tur gets blasted by LR terminus, I deepstrike a squad of Chaos Ter. 10-strong(this is apoc.) and blow him away with a ton of powerfist and chain fists.
Hypothetically and in my scenario the second turn is an advantage. You moved your Blnebldes into LOS and into my fire alley.

25% of the board is big and im prety sure we will be able to hide to still have an effective army

These discussion are all hypotheticals, someone else will come up with someone thing where im totally screwed.

Dosadi
27-09-2007, 15:42
I think there will be a level of balance. The fact that the side who has first turn has deployed their entire force before the team with second turn means you can avoid some of the bigger stuff and minimise fire corridors. The other thing to remember is that Strategic Reserves mean you can keep your important yet fragile stuff off the table for the first two turns if you wish. With my elder army, I will have as few skimmers on the table first turn as possible. After all they are very fast and with the right strategic asset I can zoom them on the table and be within a good striking distance for a third turn assault (Iím thinking Cloud strike squadron here) There are some good strategic assets like camouflage that gives everything a 5+ cover save for the first turn. Iíd say that if you are getting crippled by loosing huge numbers of units on the first turn then you are not deploying very smart or planning your strategy very well. Thatís not to say you wonít loose lots of guys in the opening salvo from your opponents, but you should have this in mind when the game is on and be able to counter act it. Personally I think having last turn in Apocalypse will be super important as itís an objective battle and being able to dash for those objectives on the last turn without fear of reprisal and being able to lay the beat down on your opponents scoring units is a bigger advantage than taking the first turn in a game where a smart opponent will leave you with few or very poor targets (like grots).


Dosadi

Hoagiex
27-09-2007, 15:58
Tourneys are notoriously low on terrain - 25% is a LOT of the board, and 40k really shouldn't be played with less.

I was talking about home games with 30-40% terrain.

with about 10-15 pieces of terrain on the table, you are lucky if one, maybe 2 can hide a full sized skimmer.... and without 'only glancings' you are dead with armour 10 to 12 and a 2/3rd change to die on a penatrating hit. obscured just doesn't cut it.

Gwedd
27-09-2007, 16:00
remember Apoc is played on a 4x8 table or bigger. A lot of guns will simply be out of range even if they shoot 48"

And therein lies the solution to many of the perceived faults of 40K. many gamers don't realise that WH40K is meant to be played on a minimum 4X4 foot table, not solely on that size. Those players who complain about this or that aspect of the game would do well to play a few games on larger tables and see if their views still hold true. I would suspect they would not.

4X4 is best used for Combat Patrol, Kill Team, and smallish-sized games (1K pts or less). When you start getting to larger sized forces, you should also increase the table size.

Other's mileage may, of course, vary..... :)

Bookwrak
27-09-2007, 17:02
I was talking about home games with 30-40% terrain.

with about 10-15 pieces of terrain on the table, you are lucky if one, maybe 2 can hide a full sized skimmer.... and without 'only glancings' you are dead with armour 10 to 12 and a 2/3rd change to die on a penatrating hit. obscured just doesn't cut it.

In that case, if the terrain is inadequate, you have no one to blame but yourself and the other player. 'Luck' has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Grazzy
27-09-2007, 17:14
In normal, smaller games of 40k its not so much of a problem, you can generally deploy most of your stuff out of LOS etc. What do you guys think?

Why should this matter? There should still be the same percentage of terrain on the board (25%). There will be some more indirect fire, but not that much.

malisteen
27-09-2007, 18:56
1) Bigger Tables, but should still have 25% terrain.

2) you know if you're going second, and can see all the other player's stuff first, making it easier to hide things or deploy them out of sight

3) reserves are more reliable, so you can just leave stuff off and have it show up later. Good for shooty or very fast units, etc.

ChaosMaster
27-09-2007, 19:04
It strikes me that the side that goes first is at a distinct advantage due the the sheer amount of huge templates possibly involved...
You'd think that, and I'm sure it does work out that way at times, but with all the random chance in dice rolling sometimes the people who go first don't fare all that well in these big games any more than they do in regular games. In the one Apocalypse game I've played so far the 8 Baneblades on one side went first and did blast a lot of infantry, but most of the vehicles on our side remained unscathed that first turn and with all the stuff in strategic reserve, we were able to come back in our turn and on turn 2 and dish out as much damage as we got. It was terrific fun and much to my surprise, going second was only half as painful as I thought it would be.

damiengore
27-09-2007, 19:07
Play with terrain.

stecal
27-09-2007, 19:15
If you cannot hide a skimmer then your terrain pieces are not big enough.

Shaft, Lord of Slaanesh
27-09-2007, 19:21
First turn in Apoky isn't really a problem. Played a game the other week, me and three work chums - 8000 points a side. I thought that setting up so close and being able to assault turn one, not to mention the sheer number of guns involved would make for a quick game and would unbalance things.

How wrong I was.

Works perfecty. Yes I was able to assault Marines in turn one with my Orks. Yes the combined casualties caused by mine and my mates Tau army was about 1000-1500 points tops for the turn but come the Marine turn they gave as good as they got - my Ork assualt ran out of steam and models - damn you Ezekiel!) whilst the Tau Battlesuits faced the pointy end of a bombardment and a Baneblade after offing a fair chunk of the Deathwing!

Yes anything goes in Apoky (no 0-1's, no force organisation chart) so that may lead to some nasty armies but then again you:

A - need the models to do it
B - If you did then chances are you'll never get to play it again against that group of mates.

It's all about the fun factor :D
I can't wait for my next game!

Word of advice - super heavy's absorb a surprising amount of fire - both my Stompa (attracted more than it's fair share of lascannons and Baneblade shells!) and the Baneblade (took several rounds from 5 Hammerheads!) were still standing at the end of the game (rubbish dice rolls didn't help!). If you don't have 'D' weapons then save your fire for the squishy stuff :P

Besides the game is about the objectives and not the killing (although it is entertaining!).

Just don't knock it till you tried it :)

Shaft 'currently converting some kind of skullhamma and resisting the urge to make a fighta bomma', Lord of Slaanesh

Fellblade
29-09-2007, 07:47
The first turn thing in Apocalypse isn't a bad thing. Yes, an awful lot can die on turn 1 but there's ways to deal with this. First, you need to totally forget what you've learned about building your force for 1500-2000pt games. An effective army for normal 40k will likely fare poorly on a bigger scale.
Second, there are strategic assets to help with this. One is called a 'Blind Barrage', if I recall, which lays down a 36" smoke screen preventing any shooting across it. If you're really worried about turn 1 fire, choose it.
Finally, proper use of reserves can mitigate the issue. There's no point having all your troops standing there like targets on turn 1 since the game is won or lost based on objectives. A couple tactical squads of marines rushing in on turn 3 can mean holding a vital backfield objective that might otherwise have been lost before the opponent's heavy ordinance could be silenced.

Hellbore
29-09-2007, 11:23
i had an APOC preview game today and i have to agree with the majority of people here in that having the first turn is no great advantage. It was quite cool though using orbital bombardments, and smokescreens, best of all my Veteran Sergent with a PF offed Abaddon on the last turn after he slaughtered Dante + Honour Guard, 15 Assault Marines and 2 Captains :D

Hellebore
29-09-2007, 11:25
Well considering the fun aspect of Apocalypse, I would explore different ways of playing, like unit activations etc.

It would require tokens put next to units to say what had moved, so you wouldn't forget, but I think it would work better, and show a nice fluid moving battlefield with reactions to enemy movements.

Hellebore

Easy E
29-09-2007, 11:31
Alternatively, each unit could be represented by a playing card from a deck of cards. Simply draw the card, play the unit, and place the card on your side of the table. Once every card in the deck has been used, reshuffle and start again.

Note: Remove excess cards, ones that do not correspond to units; from the deck before play begins.