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damiengore
27-09-2007, 21:23
Finally got a chance to play a game with my mate using the new chaos codex and here are my findings on just the one game:

Game size: 1700pts, 6x4 table, moderately dense terrain (2 forests, 3 medium buildings, 1 small building, 2 hills, 1 bunker)

Mission: Alpha Cleanse

Opponent: Tyranids

My army:

1 DP, MoS, Warp time, Wings

8 chosen, 2xPG, 1 AC with PF, 1 AC with LC's, IoCG

10 marines, 1 LC, AC with PW, IoCG, Rhino

10 bezerkers, AC with PF

6 Raptors, AC with LC's

Land Raider with Demonic Possession

8 havocs, 4 HB's, AC with combi flamer, IocG, Rhino xarm and extra bolter

Obliterator

Game Result: Very brutal game with both of making excellent use of terrain,supporting our assaults and having counter assault units in place. In the end it came down to a few models left and scoring units. I eeked out a vistory even though I only habd 5 models left! Very good game. Anyway to the point, my thoughts on the units:

Daemon Prince: Anti Hero and elite killer. Not particularily good at killing troops. My DP killed 2 Lictors and a HT before getting bogged in gaunts and eventually pulled down. If you want a troop killer get a Lord with a Daemon weapon or better yet, bezerkers. I equate this dude with a HT.

Chosen: Without infiltrate, my close assault equipped chosen really didn't do much, except live! I like the unit, like the diversity and fluffyness of it but I imagine that the cost will make it a no show at tourneys. A small unit with a lascannon and melta might make a good infiltrating tank hunter team but the assault oriented chosen are too pricey to be effective (my unit was like 250 points!).

Chaos marines: good and now even better, why? Close combat weapon and bolt pistol! Now even better in assault. Large units may be tempting to max out on icon power but to be honest 10 man and rhino will probably be better, it's just more flexible!

Bezerkers: The sheer quantity of high weapon skill, high strength, high initiative attacks a 10 man squad can deliver is terrifying! I charged a brood of genestealers in a wood and if it weren't for a botched difficult terrain roll I would have obliterated all 12 of them on the charge. As it was there was only 6 in my kill zone. Definetly troop killers extrodinaire, the addition of frag and krak as standard is nice as well. Cult troops are one of the few choices that can be fielded in minimum squad size (with maybe the exception of Tsons), their fearlessness and good combat abilities make them great speed bumps or throw aways. Ultimately my bezerker assault was a throw away to pull my opponents line out of order and I probably didn't need a full 10 to do it.

Raptors: Man did I miss the hit and run but the reduced cost means I might actually use them in competitive games now. Basically just an assault squad, definetly wouldn't waste the points on Icons of Tzeentch or nurgle for these guys, khorne or slaneesh if any. Very handy and rather inexpensive counter assault unit.

Land Raider: Daemonic possession with TL weapons is Aces! It did cost me a few hits here and there but the number of Venom cannon shots it shrugged off was legendary! Loss of machine spirit hurts in that only one lascannon is firing on the move at 6". Still very pricey adn dual purpose makes it a poor choice for tourneys.

Havocs: All I can say is YUM! Butter me up some HB or AC's, I personally am a HB in the devs and LC in the Tacs type of guy and the nice cheap AP firepower is good. Another ACE for these guys is that they still retain their bolt pistol and CCW so they are just as good as Hth as mediocre assault troops! My 8 man unit took down 9 stealers, 10 gaunts and 6 warriors! Half of those in assault! Very good unit IMO, always give them a rhino and get the AC a PW! One of the best Heavy support Choices now I think.

Obliterator: Meh, I really didn't deploy my fellow well but I was skittish around all the insta deff weapons. The lose of heavy bolter and such found me relying on plasma gun which cost me an overheat wound. Even when I could get 1 and 2 partials with the PG I still opted for the TL PG's. To me that basically leaves the Oblit with a much limited arsenal of weapons to choose from. Not a good accounting but since it takes a HS choice now I think they will be slightly less popular than before as IMO stuff that has a more dedicate role like Pred's or choices that are more versatile like havocs are better picks.

Anyway that's just my little slice of opinion from one game, overall I very much like the new dex and am pleased!

Vedar
27-09-2007, 21:39
Your Obliterator rolled a 1 for firing and a 1 on armor save? That is some bad luck. I almost never field a single Obliterator as I like at least a few las cannon shots against a tank. A Single Obliterator seems to have a big bulls eye on it for some reason.

RTB01
27-09-2007, 21:55
Obliterator: Meh, I really didn't deploy my fellow well but I was skittish around all the insta deff weapons. The lose of heavy bolter and such found me relying on plasma gun which cost me an overheat wound. Even when I could get 1 and 2 partials with the PG I still opted for the TL PG's. To me that basically leaves the Oblit with a much limited arsenal of weapons to choose from. Not a good accounting but since it takes a HS choice now I think they will be slightly less popular than before as IMO stuff that has a more dedicate role like Pred's or choices that are more versatile like havocs are better picks.



Oblis less versatile than Havocs, are you on crack? Oblis are the most versatile heavy weapon troops around, one on their own won't do much but a trio has more versatility than a pred and especially havocs and more difficult to take down (albeit a tad more expensive) Havocs are also less mobile than Oblis so i totally disagree with your last comments, feel free to come back!

damiengore
27-09-2007, 22:37
Oblits are tank hunters and elite killers, a specialist unit with a niche that they excell in. Beyond that they are vulnerable to instakill, vulnerable to any troop choice with decent numbers and are slow once deployed. They are also easy to take down to non-scoring unit status.

Havocs have access to a ton of weapon options, are better at hth (with AC and considering that each marine has 2 attacks, frag grenades and also has an initiate of 4), are faster when given a cheap transport option. They are more durable than obliterators (10 marines > 3 instakillable Oblits) (don't forget that havocs have a tendency to spend a bulk of thier time in terrain and will ussually have a 4+/5+ cover save) and retain thier scoring unit status for longer. Factor in marks and the havocs win hands down IMO.

I think it's pretty obvious that Havocs can do just about anything Oblits can do well (except move and fire, don't forget the slow and purposefull, so it';s a limited move and fire) and they excell at everything Oblits struggle with (killing hordes, fighting medium infantry, holding objectives).

Are my comments on Oblits the only thing you disagree with?

Reaver83
27-09-2007, 22:51
i've played a fair few games now with the new chaos, oblits are still amazing, just because you can move and shoot! Unless you're in very open terrain havocs can be fairly useless IMHO!

I do agree with most of what you say, except that chosen with special weapons + power weapon and khorne or slaneesh can be a great flank attacker!

damiengore
28-09-2007, 01:27
That kind of squad would be very expensive.

I always play with a moderately dense terrained tabled and I have never found it an issue with havocs or devs since I always give them transport they are in position to dominate fire lanes and control the movement of my opponent by the start of my turn two at the latest giving them the mid game to support or redirect my enemy to where I want him to be. Late game they most likely will redeploy to claim objectives and now thanks to their improved assault ability, maybe launch an assault. I also always support them with a decent counter assault unit so they are never lonely. I don't understand the whole open table favours shooting theory, open terrain favours fast decisive assault (or close ranged fire) as much as it favours shooting. Nothing to hide behind means you lose the benifits of being assaulted in cover and no terrain means assault troops are not slowed down.

Don't get me wrong I have 3 Oblits and I play them frequently, it's just now with them getting nerfed a bit (reduced weapon options and toughness) and a slight point increase coupled with the addition of BP CCW, frag crack for Havocs plus a cheap ride makes them a very attractive option now. I'm sure you'll see Oblits in tourney armies, I just don't think you'll see 9 of them, they're just not worth that sort fo investment.

Reaver83
28-09-2007, 08:23
i often use a 250ish point unit of 8 models + MOK + 3P.wep + 2Melta. They're great! in heavy cover they get a 4+, tanks hate them due to them having 2 melta's able to go for side armour, so often send in a dedicated Close combat unit to fight them, they might lose there, but with equal at worst initiative, and 3 powerweapons they're no role over.

Killgore
28-09-2007, 12:01
I'm a huge fan of using Havoks, i used to use 4 heavy bolters, then i desided to use 2 autocannons and 2 lascannons with tank hunters in the old 3rd ed codex, now I'm going back to 4 heavy bolters :)

Wyndstar
28-09-2007, 13:11
Hello all. I recently played a couple of games with the new dex, and wrote up battle reports for them. Check them out at the Game Empire forums here:
http://www.gameempire.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=852

AmBlam
28-09-2007, 14:00
What did your opponent field?

I think you should have got slaughtered fielding oblits, zerkers and and LR vs nids.

Zerkers are stealer food. An LR is too expensive just to las some wounds of a HT or 'Fex. Oblit? For 30 Points more a Pred with AC and HBs is avaliable.

AmBlam
28-09-2007, 14:02
Wyndstar I havent read the post you linked to yet but I dont recommend collecting a double lash army.

damiengore
28-09-2007, 16:08
What did your opponent field?

I think you should have got slaughtered fielding oblits, zerkers and and LR vs nids.

Zerkers are stealer food. An LR is too expensive just to las some wounds of a HT or 'Fex. Oblit? For 30 Points more a Pred with AC and HBs is avaliable.

My opponent had something like:

1HT, wings, TL Dev, warp blast

3 warriors, wings, rending, 2xDS, VC
3 warriors, wings, rending, 2xDS, BS
4 warriors, scything, 3xDS, VC

12 genestealers, scuttle
12 genestealers, scuttle
12 gaunts, FB
12 gaunts, FB
12 gaunts, FB
12 gaunts, FB
10 gaunts, SF

2 carnifex, BS, VC, BS upgrade

2x Lictors.

IMO Bezerkers are a good choice, if I could have avoided the stealers and killed gaunts I would have but the stealers were holding the middle. With frag's and the stealers in cover I struck at the same time, if I had rolled decent for my difficult terrain test I would have wiped out 12 stealers for the cost of about 4 or 5 bezerkers. As it was I only got 6 on the jump and another 4 throughout the ensuing melee. Still, like I said it pulled my opponents line out of wack.
Bezerkers are good anyday of the week and if I hadn't fed them into the stealers I would have used them as a counterassault force at which they would have done very well at.

The LR is a huge point sink IMO as well but I haven't played with it in years so I wanted to give it a go. It delivered the bezerkers, softened the HT enough for my DP to wax it and held a table quarter in the end giving me the game. Not bad I'd say and I don't see what nids have that can really scratch a LR except in cc and trust me, he was way to busy with my infantry to worry about the ol LR.

The Oblit was because I wanted to try one with the new restrictions. I was hoping to get some DS HF fun with him, as it was poor deployment had him pumpng off plasma into stealers in cover, hardly the best use of him. I find it ironic that you say a LR is easy money for a nid army but then you recommend a Pred, don't really understand that one.

damiengore
28-09-2007, 16:11
I'm a huge fan of using Havoks, i used to use 4 heavy bolters, then i desided to use 2 autocannons and 2 lascannons with tank hunters in the old 3rd ed codex, now I'm going back to 4 heavy bolters :)


havocs are now IMO the best HS choice chaos has now but then again I love infantry and find that most people disregard their capabilities and put too much stock in being able to move and fire.

Durath
28-09-2007, 16:55
Hello all. I recently played a couple of games with the new dex, and wrote up battle reports for them. Check them out at the Game Empire forums here:
http://www.gameempire.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=852

I read over your battle report Wyndstar and just wanted to point out a few things.

First off, your army build for the two forces are vastly unbalanced. The Nurgle army isn't a bad build (30 Terminators with T5!), but that Slaanesh army is terrible.

While the Terminator is a good choice for the MoN due to the improved toughness, it isn't such a good choice for Slaanesh. I might only ever bring one squad of them with Slaanesh.

The reason is because of what Slaanesh is good at: Attacking MEQs with Sonic Weapons (Doom Siren, Blastmaster). And they are good fast attack troops (with a higher initiative). This Slaanesh force has zero Sonic Weapons and Fast Attack units.

Also, your selection of 3x Vindicators for Slaanesh makes your ranged capability limited. Your whole army is limited to 24" except for two lascannons, and they either waste a turn getting out of a Rhino, or you wasted 70-100 points in vehicles that don't get used. If the Slaanesh army had the Predators that the Nurgle army did, it might have fared much better.

Lastly, don't fall into the trap of forum tactics. 2x DP is alot of points to tie up into big, killable Demon Princes. Further, with all the fuss over Lash, I'd say bringing two DPs with it will only invoke scorn from your opponents, and may cost you sportsmanship scores. I would only bring one, and drop those points into something else.

AmBlam
28-09-2007, 17:27
I suggest a Predator as it is the best point for point stealer buster in the chaos dex, can move 6" and fire all of its weapons enabling it to manoeuvre preferably out of genestealers way (or make it hard for them), and nids can only glance with shootyness, and there AT shootyness is normally short ranged (18"?). In trying to blow it up I think you could exploit them heavily. Surly its better than havocs?

RTB01
28-09-2007, 18:45
Havocs lose out simply because of their lack of mobility. Yes oblis are not the most mobile of troops but ARE more mobile and can still fire. Havocs are 100% immobile once deployed so will for me always take a back seat to havocs!

damiengore
28-09-2007, 20:20
Havocs lose out simply because of their lack of mobility. Yes oblis are not the most mobile of troops but ARE more mobile and can still fire. Havocs are 100% immobile once deployed so will for me always take a back seat to havocs!

Then IMO you don't know what you are doing with them. With a Rhino you can scoot out 12 inches to deploy in terrain on your first turn claiming objectives or maximizing your fire lanes. You may lose a turn of shooting but position is everything. Shooting every turn is not the be all and end all of the game.

Wyndstar
28-09-2007, 21:52
I read over your battle report Wyndstar and just wanted to point out a few things.

First off, your army build for the two forces are vastly unbalanced. The Nurgle army isn't a bad build (30 Terminators with T5!), but that Slaanesh army is terrible.

While the Terminator is a good choice for the MoN due to the improved toughness, it isn't such a good choice for Slaanesh. I might only ever bring one squad of them with Slaanesh.

The reason is because of what Slaanesh is good at: Attacking MEQs with Sonic Weapons (Doom Siren, Blastmaster). And they are good fast attack troops (with a higher initiative). This Slaanesh force has zero Sonic Weapons and Fast Attack units.

Also, your selection of 3x Vindicators for Slaanesh makes your ranged capability limited. Your whole army is limited to 24" except for two lascannons, and they either waste a turn getting out of a Rhino, or you wasted 70-100 points in vehicles that don't get used. If the Slaanesh army had the Predators that the Nurgle army did, it might have fared much better.

Lastly, don't fall into the trap of forum tactics. 2x DP is alot of points to tie up into big, killable Demon Princes. Further, with all the fuss over Lash, I'd say bringing two DPs with it will only invoke scorn from your opponents, and may cost you sportsmanship scores. I would only bring one, and drop those points into something else.

Yeah, thanks. We had discussed that Slaanesh force on the forums, and everyone thought it looked like a rock hard list. The noise marines were in an earlier version, but got dropped because the 10 man CSM squads were cheaper and could perform almost the same role. Everyone was thinking 2 lash + 3 vindicators was gonna rock. In theoryhammer, that Slaanesh army was the new tournament circuit winner. Not so...

I'm not sure fast attack units (I assume you mean raptors) would have done much better. They don't have power weapons, and the whole time Slaanesh was struggling to even wound the Nurgle terms. Sonic weapons and raptors would have bounced just like the Slaanesh terms, but at least the Slaanesh terms had power weapons.

I completely agree that the Slaanesh army would have been miles better with three predators over the three vindicators after playing the games. Which is good, I won't be buying the vindicators.


Surly its better than havocs?
Yeah, personally I love predators over havocs/devastators because it ties up a lot less points, is more mobile in a pinch, and packs almost as much fire power.


The Oblit was because I wanted to try one with the new restrictions. I was hoping to get some DS HF fun with him, as it was poor deployment had him pumpng off plasma into stealers in cover, hardly the best use of him. I find it ironic that you say a LR is easy money for a nid army but then you recommend a Pred, don't really understand that one.
Here, its the same thing. The land raider has GOT to bring just about the least amount of firepower you can get into 220 pts. It has transport flexibility, and high armor... but not enough guns for the points. Oblits are slightly more flexible than a predator, but even 2 are more expensive, and they are both now super weak to lascannons. Personally, I'd also take the 'ol predator standby over oblits. They can perform almost identical functions, but one is cheaper and less vulnerable to hand to hand.

Tulun
28-09-2007, 22:18
Oblits were always super weak against Lascannons... (except with the misprint of T5 base). But, they pay for it with...

High resistance to small arms (2+ save)
Not necessarily needing cover (5+ invul save).
Move and shooting (This is big; it means you can use area terrain and angles to cut down return fire, for example)
Choice of multiple weapons (The Plasma Cannon can easily double as a horde killer. A lot of hordes can't spread out enough to make it ineffective).
Deep Striking (A single oblit can easily be used like a Tau Crisis suit for taking out hidden ordnance, for example. It's close ranged weaponary is all Twin-linked to boot!).

The Oblit is just fine. I can understand why people like Havocs (they've always been good), but that doesn't make the Obliterator bad, it's just different. A full group of Havocs with 4 Lascannons is crazily expensive (290).

Good job on the win, by the way. The Nid player looks like he is using a very fun Nid list too, which is a positive.

Dr.Clock
28-09-2007, 22:49
As a loyalist player (boo, I know) I can reliably say that anyone who tries to fit four lascannons into one dev/havoc squad is leaking points. 2las/2ml is the ideal IMO... especially if you can find the points for eight men in the unit. I run two of these units at 2000 points. Of course, this is in an all-infantry force. I still loves me some preds as well in my mech-sallies...

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Durath
28-09-2007, 22:59
I'm not sure fast attack units (I assume you mean raptors) would have done much better. They don't have power weapons, and the whole time Slaanesh was struggling to even wound the Nurgle terms. Sonic weapons and raptors would have bounced just like the Slaanesh terms, but at least the Slaanesh terms had power weapons

Any MEQ army is going to have a hard time dealing with 30ish Nurgle Terminators. T5, Sv. 2+, INV Sv. 5+ is beardy no matter how you dice it.

Here's what I would have recommended for Raptors:
Buy 10 Raptors. Give one a Plasma Gun, one a Melta-Gun (Or possibly two Melta-guns). Get a AC with a Power Fist. Give them MoS if you want to make them Tourney worthy (for fighting MEQs).

You should get at least one Term death from from the special weapons fire. Fire off your Bolt Pistols, and maybe get another if you are lucky.

Charge into CC, but dont expect to kill one with CC weapons. Where you are going to put the pain down is with the Power Fist.

Further, I wouldn't try to take on a full 10-man squad of Nurgle Terms with just raptors (there is a points discrepancy between a single N. Term and a S. Raptor for a reason ).

Back them up with your Demon Prince, since the Terminator's Power Weapons are going to hurt, and the DP might thin them out some.

RTB01
29-09-2007, 00:14
Then IMO you don't know what you are doing with them. With a Rhino you can scoot out 12 inches to deploy in terrain on your first turn claiming objectives or maximizing your fire lanes. You may lose a turn of shooting but position is everything. Shooting every turn is not the be all and end all of the game.

moderately arrogant response? if your talking sacrificing a turn for positioning then oblis can deep strike or if playing escalation, start on board unlike your havocs in rhino. Personally I won't use havocs because they are static - redeployment or not. To lose a turn of shooting is in my humble and modest opinion, a waste of a unit. Havocs are supposed to be be long ranged fire support. In comparison to other choices available - preds, oblis, vindis and even defilers, i wouldn't pick havocs for heavy weapons. I'd use them with special weapons, yes, but not heavy weapons - too immobile and the way the game has moved it's mobile firepower that wins games and havocs don't figure in that equation

Wyndstar
29-09-2007, 02:34
Any MEQ army is going to have a hard time dealing with 30ish Nurgle Terminators.

Yeah, but that is the new chaos. How many lists have you already seen that use 30 terminators - they could come in as cheap as 900 pts. 30 Terminators is THE way of the new chaos, backed up by a pair of lashes.

The big question is do you want 34 pt. guys with T5, or 33pt. guys with 3 attacks base, 4 on a charge. All power attacks of some kind.

Taking less than 30 terminators with the new cost is just gimping your army. I play in highly competitive environments. I won't be taking a single raptor till after my 30 Terms, 2 troops and HQ slot are filled.

adreal
29-09-2007, 03:14
moderately arrogant response? if your talking sacrificing a turn for positioning then oblis can deep strike or if playing escalation, start on board unlike your havocs in rhino. Personally I won't use havocs because they are static - redeployment or not. To lose a turn of shooting is in my humble and modest opinion, a waste of a unit. Havocs are supposed to be be long ranged fire support. In comparison to other choices available - preds, oblis, vindis and even defilers, i wouldn't pick havocs for heavy weapons. I'd use them with special weapons, yes, but not heavy weapons - too immobile and the way the game has moved it's mobile firepower that wins games and havocs don't figure in that equation


hmm that's funny, my havoks are one of my powerhouse units (6 man, 1 las, 1 auto, two rockets) and I don't move htem unless its the last turn and they can get a table quarter, they also have always made thier points back (even more likly now I dropped the icon of slaanesh)

but cest ala vie I suppose, I like the havoks and they work for me, you don't and you use other heavies, either way GW makes money of us

alex03
29-09-2007, 06:01
Thanks for the post damiengore. I am slowly painting up my own chaos force and it was interesting to read your post.

My one thought is why buy an AC for a chosen squad? He doesnt really add any options or increase the squads ld, so for 10pts you get 1 extra attack.

I do have a question, did the icon of chaos glory help you out much? I was thinking of taking the field without any icons. Chaos glory would be the only one I would really consider.

Reaver83
29-09-2007, 08:30
Yeah, but that is the new chaos. How many lists have you already seen that use 30 terminators - they could come in as cheap as 900 pts. 30 Terminators is THE way of the new chaos, backed up by a pair of lashes.

The big question is do you want 34 pt. guys with T5, or 33pt. guys with 3 attacks base, 4 on a charge. All power attacks of some kind.

Taking less than 30 terminators with the new cost is just gimping your army. I play in highly competitive environments. I won't be taking a single raptor till after my 30 Terms, 2 troops and HQ slot are filled.

A mate's death wing army is like that, it's strange but vindicators and oblits make really short work of that, especially as they're more maneuverable

Durath
29-09-2007, 09:26
A mate's death wing army is like that, it's strange but vindicators and oblits make really short work of that, especially as they're more maneuverable

Exactly. There are counters for any "weighted" tactic that involves using just one type of unit.

Don't get me wrong though. The 30 Terminator army is nasty, its just that you are going to run into someone with lots of AP2 shooting that is gonna melt them down.

But I digress. All I am saying is that Slaanesh isn't the best army for mass Terminators, simply because the Mark isn't as effective as the other Marks for them. Its still viable, but just not as effective.

Anardakil
29-09-2007, 10:41
havocs with missile launchers, autocannons, infiltrate and tank hunters rocked in last edition. I miss them :(

Wyndstar
29-09-2007, 13:42
Exactly. There are counters for any "weighted" tactic that involves using just one type of unit.

Oh, no army is invincible. No argument from me. I still think Terminators are the best unit pt. for pt. in that book.


it's strange but vindicators and oblits make really short work of that, especially as they're more maneuverable

It's strange, but I'm not sure you read my battle reports. I played 3 games against an army with 3 vindicators. Sure... the vindicators did some damage in spots, but it was hardly FTW vs. Nurgle Terms.


All I am saying is that Slaanesh isn't the best army for mass Terminators

Ahh, well I completely agree with you. I think it's gotta be Nurgle or Khorne.

Cheers,
- Wyndstar

malisteen
29-09-2007, 13:53
Huh. And here I would have thought Tzeentch, with the added protection against AP2 and better, would have been the clear choice for masses of terminators....

Reaver83
29-09-2007, 14:30
havocs with missile launchers, autocannons, infiltrate and tank hunters rocked in last edition. I miss them :(

go find one of the million threads that deals with that - or get over it?

damiengore
29-09-2007, 21:43
Thanks for the post damiengore. I am slowly painting up my own chaos force and it was interesting to read your post.

My one thought is why buy an AC for a chosen squad? He doesnt really add any options or increase the squads ld, so for 10pts you get 1 extra attack.

I do have a question, did the icon of chaos glory help you out much? I was thinking of taking the field without any icons. Chaos glory would be the only one I would really consider.

The AC can give you access to hth stuff, that and I had run out of regualr chaos marines.

CG didn't nothing for me as I rolled well for morale all game, if I had failed and needed the reroll it would have been gold. Nice for DS and such as well.

damiengore
29-09-2007, 21:46
moderately arrogant response? In comparison to other choices available - preds, oblis, vindis and even defilers, i wouldn't pick havocs for heavy weapons. I'd use them with special weapons, yes, but not heavy weapons - too immobile and the way the game has moved it's mobile firepower that wins games and havocs don't figure in that equation

not arrogant at all, I did say IMO. Funny that you think the game is all about mobile firepower, personally I think it's all about unit coordination and using terrain. You play your way I'll play mine, as far as I'm concerned Havocs will be a staple of my lists.