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Pekel
28-09-2007, 04:53
I posted essentially this same thing on a Tyranid forum, as I'm mainly a Tyranid player. But it really applies to any army and I wanted to get more opinions on it (and maybe inspire some people!).

I may be crazy, but I was thinking about making a custom Tyranid unit for Apocalypse. A Malefactor (fluffwise, a living Tyranid transport) sort of thing appearance-wise, using Land Raider rules. Then make new Tyranid organisms (armored, gun-toting evolved Genestealers?) to ride along (using Space Marine rules). Simply get a base with the same footprint as a Land Raider, then build the beast upon that. Or make Terminator-proxy Tyranids (heavily-armored Warrior-like beasts, perhaps with a Biovore-like one serving as the AssCan?).

The point is that with Apocalypse, you can bulk your army out to make it huge. But what if you get sick of the same Codex choices simply in greater quantity? You're allowed to use units from other armies, so why not apply the rules to new Tyranid beasts for your army?

I know that some people would say this is said with cheese in mind and is abusive of the Apocalypse system and WYSIWYG. But I think it's an amazing opportunity to think up new Tyranid organisms and get to play with them in a more-or-less legal fashion.

How about beasts between the size of Gargoyles and Harridan using the Landspeeder rules? Or galloping centaur-like 'Nids which play as SM bikers? There's plenty of opportunity to make interesting beasts and play them in Apocalypse. Hell, you could make an entire Niddified Space Marine army and play it on its own as a legal army representing new heavily-armored species evolved for certain battlefields.

I agree that this could be abusive if I simply converted some "Tyranid Falcons" or "Tyranid Monoliths" so I could take advantage of the Apocalypse rules. But if I want to ally with another army, what can I do besides Genestealer cults? The ultimate goal here would be a way to expand my army and exercise my imagination while still saying I play pure Tyranids.

Is this idea an abomination, or is it intriguing? How many of you WYSIWYG freaks or rules lawyer want to disembowel me?

Another idea:

For IG players: Use Carnifex rules to design massive mounts for your commanders, Ripper Swarms as packs of german shepards, Warriors as guardsmen in exoskeletal armor, and Gargoyles as jump-pack guardsmen (T3, 5+ save). There you have an entirely legal Tyranid army which can flawlessly ally with your Guard (it requires no synapse).

etc.

killa kan kaus
28-09-2007, 05:01
thats pretty cool great ideas

alexh
28-09-2007, 05:08
Finally, a new thread about 40k!!!!! Isn't there some kind of VDR specifically for nids? What you are proposing sounds good, and also in the spirit of Apoc as I understand it. As long as you paid an appropriate points cost, I would have no problem with you using any of your ideas as it would make for an interesting game

Blackwolf
28-09-2007, 05:38
Intresting Ideas you have. I don't think I would mind as long as you had written down what every model is before the game so that I could study it so there are no surprises.

Darnok
28-09-2007, 08:00
I would like it. Give me some cool conversions and a written background for those units, and I would have no problem at all. After all you could ally Nids with Marines in Apoc (mind control ;)), so the ingame effect is already possible to achieve. The conversions are the extra bonus for the "woah, cool stuff" that can make an Apoc game special. Go for it.

P.S.: COngrats, you have some excellent ideas. I might steal some of them. :D

destroyerlord
28-09-2007, 09:08
Sounds like a good idea to me. The more bio-mass the better. :) Are you actually planning any conversions/scratch builds yet or is this just a hypothetical?

Latro_
28-09-2007, 11:14
mate i know is doing custodes unit, each one using the grey knight grand master rules :P.

Killgore
28-09-2007, 11:54
apocalypse is a brilliant way for gw to introduce new units and models without affecting the codex, they just need to release a data sheet online

if gw capitalise on apoc we'l see alot of new 40k content over the years

in the meen time we just do things like Pekel has mentioned :)

Son of Makuta
28-09-2007, 12:51
Ye gods! I never thought of doing that!!

Pekel, thou art for certain a genius. ;)

Beast Rabban
28-09-2007, 13:26
Brilliant.
As always, as long as these crazy ideas are done to make a fun game not smash the opposition, go for it!

Enanus
28-09-2007, 13:37
I may be crazy, but I was thinking about making a custom Tyranid unit for Apocalypse. A Malefactor (fluffwise, a living Tyranid transport) sort of thing appearance-wise, using Land Raider rules. Then make new Tyranid organisms (armored, gun-toting evolved Genestealers?) to ride along (using Space Marine rules). Simply get a base with the same footprint as a Land Raider, then build the beast upon that. Or make Terminator-proxy Tyranids (heavily-armored Warrior-like beasts, perhaps with a Biovore-like one serving as the AssCan?).
etc.

Actually in the 2nd edition there were kinds of gun totting genestealers, the hybrids. They had tons of heavy weapons but the hell of a bad accuracy!! It was a very fun thing to play against, specially if the modelling was well done...

Your ideas are very good indeed. I wouldn't be surprised that GW took notes on your stuff...

Puffin Magician
28-09-2007, 14:16
It's wonderful to see that people are still able to use their imaginations and use this game closer to it's full potential, and have a lot of fun doing it.

This is a superb way to create accurate rules for the Adeptus Mechanicus, Mercenary forces, or really anything in the fluff that can't be nailed down into an individual force [Divisio Mandati, high-tech human forces, Crone World Eldar, Squats...].

...galloping centaur-like 'Nids...Got Zoatibix?

Mr_Rose
28-09-2007, 14:22
Ironically enough, many of the chaos-y units would make pretty good ecclesiarchy stuffs too because they are opposite sides of the same coin.

For instance: I already have plans afoot to build a SoB mega-flame-tank that uses the rules for the plaguereaper, but that is mostly since it's the only tank to use the hell-fire (giant flamer) template.
Also, a mega-penitent engine (with suicide bomb) that uses the rules for the Brass Scorpion.

Easy E
28-09-2007, 16:02
Hellhammer?

On topic, please be as creative as you can! Just remember the golden rule. Have fun (that includes all players)!

Long Live Apocalypse!

Mr_Rose
28-09-2007, 16:24
Hellhammer?

The Hellhammer does not use the giant flamer template. At all. Check out this month's WD; the Hellhammer Cannon gets the 7" round blast marker and has (less than?) half the range of the Baneblade Cannon, in exchange for S10, AP1 and ignoring cover saves (it's basically a long-barrelled Demolisher). The sponson flamers just use the regular flame template.

Anyway, now I just have to figure out how to do the giant penitent engine/brass scorpion without it looking too much like either.
What about a centauroid form? Maybe with the stinger cannon sticking out between the front legs...

Grazzy
28-09-2007, 17:02
Pekel, what a brilliant idea! I could use carnifex rules for a dreadnought, so he is more survivable and has similar shootiness (dakkafex). Or someone could use ork boyz rules to represent a successor chapter of blood angels which has descended so far into the red thirst that they just charge at the enemy with huge CCW.

The Orange
28-09-2007, 18:31
Considering that Apocalypse is supposed to be played in a non-competitive atmosphere (something you pre-plan to do with friends, etc.) I don't see how people could really have a problem with it unless your friend happen to be really anal about the rules.

And frankly, it's a great idea, even GW hinted to it a little bit in WD. They had a table set up with a train which they said they used with Land Rader rules, only that it was restricted to moving on the train tracks. Though technically, they were using a Smurf army with it, so they weren't breaking as many rules as your planning to do, I think the idea shines through that making up units is perfectly okay (as long as it make the game funner).

I love the idea and my friends love to convert stuff, we could have quite the field day with this (though we still need to get a board together :eyebrows:).

Shortseer
28-09-2007, 18:47
This sounds like a great idea, i need to tell me Guard friend, he's been converting guard models to use Tau rules. I think he'd love Impyranids

nooobie 69
28-09-2007, 18:59
yea great ideas i had the same but with a marine pylon for anti air support (by the way i would use a ork battle fortress in the apoc book for transport (transports 30 people and is bigger))oh and dreadnoughts and monstorous creatures take up 10 transport capacity

TheOverlord
28-09-2007, 19:11
This is an awesome idea and I personally think the whole point and charm of apocalypse :D (or at least it should be)

If you really do it, gives us the piccies!

The Leech
28-09-2007, 23:51
As a Sisters player, I am chompin' at the bit to model Sister versions of Space Marine units to field with my girls. I've got a Sisters dreadnought and a Sisters version of a Land Raider Prometheus mostly complete. The "big" project will be a squad of girls on bikes. While the "counts as" rule has always been an option with the group that I play with, Apocalypse provides a more relaxed allies rule that will make the units a tiny bit more valid. Or at least a little less illegal.

zorcon
29-09-2007, 01:36
...Or galloping centaur-like 'Nids which play as SM bikers?

ohhhh.... something to use my zoats for!!

Son of Makuta
05-10-2007, 21:00
I've had a few awesome ideas for this recently. Here they are:

Converted Tyranid Terminators. Made to look a little like Tyrant Guard. Mostly for a laugh.

Crisis Warriors. TL missile pods/venom cannons, iridium armour (they have warp fields and psychic-powered teleporters that move them D6" in the assault phase, sort of like huge warp spiders), and a Shas'o for an excuse to make a really big one and because he's Ld 10. These, if I do them right, will look incredible.

And a kind of super mutant Gargoyle - Vespid.

Whaddya think?

Tags
05-10-2007, 21:07
Thanx alot!!! No my mind is full of insane ideas... I happen to have a star ways AT-AT... Now I'm wondering if there would be a way to work it up as an inquisitorial titan of some sort.

Ooooh Grey Knight bikers. ;>

Dren Krelar
05-10-2007, 22:12
I happen to have a star wars AT-AT... Now I'm wondering if there would be a way to work it up as an inquisitorial titan of some sort.

As cool as that would be, I don't see it fitting in fluff-wise. All the titans we know of have only two legs.

Maybe you could use an AT-ST as the basis of a kit-bashed Warhound. :D

Tags
05-10-2007, 23:03
As cool as that would be, I don't see it fitting in fluff-wise. All the titans we know of have only two legs.

Maybe you could use an AT-ST as the basis of a kit-bashed Warhound. :D

Never seen a toy AT-ST and the model scale compared to warhammer scale would probably be pretty off. Still in any case I can see the Grey Knights on bikes or maintaining a titan like weapon, maybe more of a mobile fortress.

Durath
05-10-2007, 23:30
I'm neither a rules lawyer or a WYSIWYG freak, and while this idea has merit, there is one thing that needs to be addressed here.

The units in the game are designed, more or less, around the fluff. Straying too far off from "cannon" rules design will leave the game feeling static, and un-flavored.

Sounds crazy I know... Fluff is on the surface, entirely whimsical, so why should it have any impact on the rules? If someone can write decently, they can redesign fluff to make any set of rules make sense for any model. Right?

Well no, not really. Taking the fictional works of an individual to the level of the production of the game by GW leaves the game open to skewed design, and understanding that the game has been built around the stories created by GW, and not what other random people are saying is key to making the license work.

As such, Apocalypse (from what I have read so far) doesn't so much provide an open-ended "do what you want" platform, but rather provides an outlet to experience the GAME in a manner consistent with the FICTION.

Thus, Land-Raider using Tyranids is a ripple that could spread into huge waves that wind up being confusion and abuse-tactics.

For example: Say someone has a Necron army, but he doesn't think Necrons are all that great of an army, or he wants to bring something a little more "assault" based.

Under the assumed stance of the OP, he then starts using "Space Marine" rules for his warriors, and Land Raider rules for his Monolith.

He writes a fluff piece that he recites when he brings them out, about how the Necron's fast attack monoliths finally awakened, and the self-preservation awareness of the Necron warriors has been diminished, but they are running out of power packs for their gauss weapons, and are starting to use projectile weapons.

Soon everyone in the club starts bringing their own version of "Land Raider Space Marines". And all you have is a dice contest.

One thing I noticed about the write-up in WD333, is that while yes, Chaos is using Baneblades, and a special Nurgle Baneblade at that, This would be consistent with "Cannon" 40k fiction, as entire regiments of IG go renegade. Why wouldn't their tanks go with them?


Finally.... there is already something like this for 'nids. Except its better.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harridan#Harridan

Cry of the Wind
06-10-2007, 01:04
I think you're being a little too pessimistic there Durath, the OP is suggesting doesn't go far off of the canon as it is. I see your point about it being the first step on a slippery slope, but if done with proper restraint (and a suitable converted army) I can see this idea working out. It's not like everyone is going to suddenly start converting entire armies worth of models for one army just to use another armies rules (it's hard enough to get a normal army up to standard...).

It reminds me of an idea I've had in the back of my mind for a long time now. Genestealer infested Orks. The army would use the rules from the Tyranid codex but the models would be more Orks that are infested rather than Tyranid beasties. Slugga boys turn into hormaguants with their lower bodies having been mutated into scuttling legs and their hands become useless for guns. Shoota boys are now devour gaunts, their new profile because of the random mutations. Dreadnoughts become carnifexs and of course there would be Purestain genestealers and a Broodlord leading the army.

One day I'll get around to doing that army...one day...

Orcboy
06-10-2007, 01:15
Theres no problem there, the allies matrix allows you to take Chaos Marines as allies to your nids, so just use Chaos Termies and Landraider rules.

Farvatarch Seerlord
06-10-2007, 05:30
Considering that Apocalypse is supposed to be played in a non-competitive atmosphere (something you pre-plan to do with friends, etc.) I don't see how people could really have a problem with it unless your friend happens to be really anal about the rules.

And frankly, it's a great idea, even GW hinted to it a little bit in WD. They had a table set up with a train which they said they used with Land Rader rules, only that it was restricted to moving on the train tracks. Though technically, they were using a Smurf army with it, so they weren't breaking as many rules as your planning to do, I think the idea shines through that making up units is perfectly okay (as long as it makes the game funner).

I've been doing similar "in-codex" rule shifting to continue using Black Guardians for my Ulthwe War Host... Dire Avengers painted in Ulthwe colors with red plumes look just like a "militia of highly trained, battle hardened Guardians." And the increased range and Bladestorm powers fit with that description as well. I still use a couple squads of regular guardians with Heavy Weapons as well (even with BS 3, they do pretty well with Scater Lasers). It helps to maintain the flavor of an "aspect-light" Craftworld Eldar list without going outside the 4th Ed. codex.

Now that I think about it, I might as well be using Howling Banshee rules for those Storm Guardian models I still have left over from Ulthwe Strike Force days... I'd still be using a squad of ten in a WS like before (minus the Destructorfied Warlock, of course).

But this thread is giving me all sorts of new ideas for allied unit possibilities. I do use a couple squads of Warp Spiders in my army. I wonder what special character I could pull from my list of allies to stand in for a Warp Spider Phoenix Lord... Hmmmmm....


I love the idea and my friends love to convert stuff, we could have quite the field day with this (though we still need to get a board together :eyebrows:).

If you and your friends have already got a couple smaller tables prepared, you might try to get them to the same location and set them next to each other.

malisteen
06-10-2007, 15:30
Sounds Good, although I'd rather just make up rules for the new beasties, following the conventions of larger tyranid creatures set forward in APO - ie, more toughness and wounds rather then armor values. Of course, that only works if you have a gaming group willing to experiment with home rules.

boogle
06-10-2007, 17:17
Some brilliant ideas there my friend, question is, when are we going to see the Malefactor?, and are you going to do the Haruspex and Dactylis as well (Predator and Whirlwind rules?)

Pekel
09-10-2007, 22:57
Originally this was all theoretical, but I did it. I made a NidMarine. Here's hoping I don't get sucked into making a whole unit, because then they'd need a ride...

Check the Tyranid link in my signature if you want to see it. Someone on another forum is making an awesome Tyranid flyer, roughly on scale with the smaller flyers of other races. Who knows what cools rules could be used for a Tyranid interceptor-beast...

Grimtuff
09-10-2007, 23:55
I wonder what special character I could pull from my list of allies to stand in for a Warp Spider Phoenix Lord... Hmmmmm....


Either Farsight (Tau) or Captain Shrike (Marines*) would be a good choice.

*Yes I know SMs cannot ally with Eldar according to the allies matrix, but neither can they ally with Nids. So there. :p

OBISPUDKENOBI
10-10-2007, 00:28
i think GW are going to be throwing new units at us as much as possible after last years results , i think they need the boost in sales , hopefully they have listened to the customer, i have been praying for new units for armies every week .
by new unit i mean something we havent seen before like the masters of the chapter rather than the mk2 space marine vets .

His Master's Voice
10-10-2007, 00:44
@Peckel - You might be interested in the fact that there is a VDR ruleset for Tyranids. I still own the copy of WD where they were published and I'm pretty sure that they were reprinted in one of the Chapter Approved books. Tunner, bio-plasma, wrecker, massive deathspitter.... mhhhh.

silveryfox
10-10-2007, 01:11
cool ideas, like your thoughts for the IG.

thorgrim
10-10-2007, 22:02
In the apoc rule book it says that you should feel free to make new datasheets for you army provided they aren't too overpowered or cheap. This idea is a cool one although i would say that instead of using the land raider rules make it more like a hierophant (Biotitan). Give it a high toughness and a lot of wounds. It'll be a gigantic creature so ignores armour and can cause a lot of damage on its own.