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Red_Duke
28-09-2007, 09:42
A quick question from a game last night - Vampires vs Empire.

Can Hand of Dust work on the Steam Tank?

You can't cast anything but magic missiles at a steamtank (due to its anti-magic special ability). However, magic weapons work on it. So, given hand of dust affects a character and augments his attack (takes him down to 1 attack, which if it hits, kills the target with no armour saves allowed), does the steamtanks magical resistance stop it? or does it get automatically turned to a heap of scrap iron? (given that you hit the thing automatically)

Given that a wizard casting flaming sword of rhuin on himself would presumably be ok, (or the beast lore one) i dont see why the undead ability wouldnt be just as effective.

Does anyone know if theres been an faq released anywhere that covers this?

DeathlessDraich
28-09-2007, 10:06
1) No, there is no FAQ that explains how HOD works on the ST.

2) Only magic spells "with a given Strength" will work against the ST. So HOD does not. An autowound does not specify a given strength. Since S10 or S100 fails to wound on a roll of 1, therefore an autowound surpasses any S value.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-09-2007, 11:32
Well, you could make a case for the attack being whatever strenght the model have. I mean, it's still the model attacking, it justhave some different properties as well when it hits.

DeathlessDraich
28-09-2007, 11:48
the attack being whatever strength the model has

What does this actually mean?:D
Which model and why *can* an attack value be assigned?:D


I mean, it's still the model attacking, it just has some different properties as well when it hits.

If the rules for the Steam Tank states that it is affected by any spell which is an 'attack', then this would be acceptable.

I acknowledge the problems that the ST rules create. There should be at least 2 FAQs to clarify them.

Runefang and any auto wound weapon has to be resolved in the same way as Hand of dust - either a) no effect or b) cast and auto destroy without any rolls!

EvC
28-09-2007, 12:04
The Hand of Dust is not cast on the Steam Tank. If it was, it would not work. The spell is cast on the Necromancer and affects his attacks, so it should still work on the Steam Tank, in the same way that Hellish Vigour would let you re-roll misses and strike first, and the Flaming Sword of Rhuin would still harm the tank even though it has no actual S value.

Uhh, Runefang doesn't autokill but it does autowound, and yes, I'd say that works the same. To determine the S value of the Hand of Dust attacks, ask yourself: what S value does the model attacking the Tank have?

T10
28-09-2007, 12:30
The Hand of Dust is a close combat attack destroys the target instead of causing a wound. It effectively works as a normal attack with certain exceptions.

1. Roll to hit.
Exception: Only a single attack is made.
Assumption: Mundane or magical weapons are disregarded, meaning no +1 to hit for Hand of Dust attacks for characters with the Sword of Striking.

2. Roll to wound.
Exception: No roll to wound is made - the spell "wounds" automatically.

3. Roll armour save.
Exception: No armour save is permitted.

4. Roll ward save.
This is a single ward save to negate the entire effect.
Assumption: The destructo-effect is instead of suffering a wound, which I think is the equivalent of the target being destroyed if it suffers an unsaved wound.

If a Bretonnian character is subject to the spell it is natural to assume that the spell has the same "Strenght" as the attacker with regards to the character's ward save: A S3 Necromancer means the character gets a 6+ ward save, a S5 Vampire means the character gets a 5+ ward save.

If that assumption is held as valid, then then the Hand of Dust is considered to have a "Strenght" and will thus pretty much destroy the Steam Tank out-right.

-T10

EvC
28-09-2007, 12:43
Oh and am I right in thinking you auto-hit the Steam Tank anyway? That'd be awesome...

DeathlessDraich
28-09-2007, 14:21
Oh and am I right in thinking you auto-hit the Steam Tank anyway? That'd be awesome...

Yes, the ST is automatically hit - hnce the reason why I equated HOD with Runefang.



it is natural to assume that the spell has the same "Strenght" as the attacker with regards to the character's ward save: A S3 Necromancer means the character gets a 6+ ward save, a S5 Vampire means the character gets a 5+ ward save.


Like Carling beer, probably the best solution for evaluating Brets Ward saves against HOD.



If that assumption is held as valid, then then the Hand of Dust is considered to have a "Strenght" and will thus pretty much destroy the Steam Tank out-right.
-T10

I think I understand now. Hand of Dust has a 'Strenght' value while the ST requires a Strength value. :p

I think that assumption needs to be evaluated with a dice roll.

theunwantedbeing
28-09-2007, 18:10
The hand of dust isnt cast on the steam tank, so whats the problem?
It's a special attack.

The steam tanks immunity to magical spells doesnt help it in that situation.

"hand of rust" ^_^

DeathlessDraich
28-09-2007, 20:24
The ST's rules, unfortunately do not use the phrase "it is immune to spells cast on it". The restrictions are much broader than that.

1) "it blocks most magical attacks" - most is a most unhelpful word
2) "only spells with a *given strength* may affect it" - N.B. given strength
3) "All other* effects are ignored" - *All*

As T10 mentioned, it is easier to assume a given strength in cases where it is absolutely necessary - Brets Ward save.

The grey areas are cases like HOD, Pit of Shades, auto-wounding magic weapons.

Many STank owners interpret 'given strength' as an exact number needed for Strength and the *all other* is a very strong term to denote that, deduced or implied strengths (but not expicitly stated strengths), have to be excluded.

I suppose there will be VC players who feel HOD carries an implicit Strength value which is good enough.

EvC
28-09-2007, 22:34
Most Empire players I've talked to who field a Steam Tank have made a point to recognise that their pride and joy could be destroyed so easily by the Hand of Dust...