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Phoenix Blaze
28-09-2007, 12:51
Is the Balrog counted as a character in that you can only have 1 per army?

I was talking to some friends about 1st age armies, and the thought of multiple Balrogs led by Gothmog came up.

It'd make a very interesting game, a massive army coming up against 7 or so Balrogs (which would be pretty much all of them, Tolkien stated that there were only ever about 3, at the most 7 Balrogs, but then again, earlier work has hordes of them).

Make it even bigger and have that as just part of a force with dragons orcs and all sorts of nasty creatures, it'd be like the Fall of Gondolin.

Now wouldn't that be an epic game to play, they should do it at next year's Games Day.

So yeah, back to my main point, does the Balrog count as a 1 per army choice as a character would?

Long_Fang
28-09-2007, 13:59
You can field as many as you like. There is no limit imposed by the rules, just like there isn't one for Captains.

Kroot Lord
28-09-2007, 15:59
Nope, no limit.

There WOULD be a limit though if he came first in an army list, and then after that came a named hero (for sure) and thenc aptains/kings.

Sounds weird, but as the rulebooks are written, at first are the named heroes (Aragorn, Boromir, Imrahil) and once they are all done, come the un named heroes (captains, kings).

One problem though is if you would have for example:
Durburz
Balrog
Captain

because Durburz is a named hero and the captain isn't, but where is the balrog? Is he a named hero or un named?

But for the rules you may have as many as you wish, and the fluff supports thsat too in the "older" days, and in the "newer" days there might have been more but they were very fewe and spread over middle-earth.

Neknoh
29-09-2007, 16:18
The Balrog is a named Hero, due to the notion of including "the option to include multiple", which can be found on each Captain entry, NOT being in it's entry, and as such, it is classed as a named Hero.

Do bear in mind that the game is supposed to take place at the time shown in the movies, and, there were no Balrogs present at the final battle of the last alliance or the time thereabout, they were all driven from the lands much earlier than that.

Kroot Lord
29-09-2007, 16:26
Neknoh, have you just seen the last year of GW events? If so you'd see that it isn't the time of the movies.

Unclejo
29-09-2007, 19:58
Seeing as the OP wants to recreate events like the Fall of Gondolin, of course you can take as many as you want. Themed games like that are great oppurtunities to ignore lists and points and take what is thematically correct. A Balrog with (if memory serves) a hundred trolls as backup is never going to be viable if you try to use proper lists.

Neknoh
29-09-2007, 21:14
Neknoh, have you just seen the last year of GW events? If so you'd see that it isn't the time of the movies.

In and arround the times of the movies, yes, do note that the first movie actually presents you with the time in between the Last Alliance and the rings coming to the shire, whilst the last presents you with the destruction of the ring and the last ringbearers departure from the grey havens.

As far as I can remember, all of the books so far have taken place within this time period, the Fall of the Necromancers and Fall of Arnor might predate this, but not by much. Also, do note that last years events ALSO included the Two Towers and the Return of the King allong with the books to go with them :p

The_Warsmith
29-09-2007, 21:27
it would be cool to see multiple balrogs running around even though neknoh is technicaly correct

Kroot Lord
29-09-2007, 21:45
Well, the movies is based on the War of the Ring, not the Last Alliance, although they do show a few minutes in the movie.

Khazad Dum? Before.
Ruin of Arnor? Before.
Shadow and Flame? Before.
Fall of the Necromancer? Before.

Then don't forget some stray scenarios (Bullroarers fight against the Wargs) which were also before the War of the Ring.

I agree that most of the stuff is based in and around the movies (including models), but a substantial amount is also from other time periods (read: War of the RIng)

Back at the Fall of Gondolin the battles would have some Balrogs and tons of Orcs on one side against tons of Elves (I'd go for 3-4 Balrogs, and then fill up the rest of the points to 2000 points with Goblins, representing the Orcs back then and the Elves. Might not be "completely" accurate but that is meant to represent the huge difference between an elf and an orc, and you can't just up the Elves stats, you'll have to make the Orc a "lesser Orc" which is only represented by Goblins at the moment, so we'll just take them instead, plus it gives you extra numbers which should be very clear).

C-Coen
30-09-2007, 10:44
I agree, even when normally not allowed you can of course use as many Balrogs as you like. And who cares whether it is allowed or not, when you have a table filled with 'shadows and flames'?
If the prices would be lower, I would already have 5 balrogs, to recreate such events..! (Reminds me, I still haven't got a single one..)

Just like I would allow people to take 3 (fire, magic and tough skin) of the Dragon Upgrades, to recreate characters like Glaurung (altough he would need something else, maybe lose the fleeing rule), or even take all rules for Smaug.

I prefer Tolkien over GW, to say it another way..!

The pestilent 1
30-09-2007, 11:31
Well, the movies is based on the War of the Ring, not the Last Alliance, although they do show a few minutes in the movie.

Khazad Dum? Before.
Ruin of Arnor? Before.
Shadow and Flame? Before.
Fall of the Necromancer? Before.

And every single one of those takes place a couple thousand years after the fall of Sauron, let alone the fall of Melkor. :rolleyes:

Neknoh
30-09-2007, 12:14
Exactly my point, the time which we are portrayed with in the movies range from:

The forging of the rings-the last of the movie-ringbearers leave for the western lands (still irked that Sam did not get to go in the movie)

Kroot Lord
30-09-2007, 13:48
In my original post I didn't count the forging of the ring/ the last alliance.

And the pest, what makes you thinnk that they did?

superknijn
30-09-2007, 18:42
(still irked that Sam did not get to go in the movie)

What, you want another ending?;)

Adept
30-09-2007, 21:32
In and arround the times of the movies, yes, do note that the first movie actually presents you with the time in between the Last Alliance and the rings coming to the shire, whilst the last presents you with the destruction of the ring and the last ringbearers departure from the grey havens.

As far as I can remember, all of the books so far have taken place within this time period, the Fall of the Necromancers and Fall of Arnor might predate this, but not by much. Also, do note that last years events ALSO included the Two Towers and the Return of the King allong with the books to go with them :p

This is because GW are not licenced to publish material dealing with books other than the LotR or the Hobbit. The Silmarillion et al, is out of bounds.

There is nothing stoppping us, as gamers, from setting up games in those time frames though.

Neknoh
30-09-2007, 22:30
Which is something I'm glad about, GW should NOT make models of the first ages if you ask me.

And yes, I wanted the Scouring of the Shire, the Ring of Fire on Gandalf's hand and Sam leaving for the undying lands! Not to mention I wanted Elladan and Elrohir to show together with the rangers and Dúnedain... not a host of green ghosts dug up from underneath some mountains. Those ghosts belonged with the second most powerful ringwraith and the shadowhost of Minas Morgul!

yabbadabba
30-09-2007, 22:57
Which is something I'm glad about, GW should NOT make models of the first ages if you ask me.

just out of interest - why not?

I don't think it matters too much. If you go by the BRB then the descrition of the balrog is all singular "The Balrog" e.t.c. If you go by LOME it is just Balrog. I don't have KD yet - sorry!

If you want to be historically accurate there was only 1 known Balrog in the LOTR. If you are playing a mash up with mates - who cares, just have fun? If you are going to a tournament - ask the organisers.

Neknoh
30-09-2007, 23:01
Are we talking the Lotr universe or the Lotr trilogy?

Adept
01-10-2007, 00:44
Are we talking the Lotr universe or the Lotr trilogy?

For gaming purposes, I consider the entire LotR universe, plus 'alternate history' versions of Middle Earth to be fair game.

So yes, as far as I'm concerned taking multiple Balrogs is within the constraints of the background.

brettz123
01-10-2007, 04:32
I don't see any reason to say you can not have multiple Balrogs. It doesn't say it in the rules and frankly balrog is not a unique name. And the game is based on the Lord of the Rings Universe and not the movies. A lor of stuff not mentioned in the movies has been made for the game so it is a little hard to justify something by saying that it wasn't in the movies. And the inclusion of Arnorian troops predates the movie by a very long time.

C-Coen
01-10-2007, 17:48
I don't think it matters too much. If you go by the BRB then the descrition of the balrog is all singular "The Balrog" e.t.c. If you go by LOME it is just Balrog. I don't have KD yet - sorry!
I think this is as with the Spider Queen. In FotN it was 'The Spider Queen', later she was called: 'Spider Queen'.
GW said in errata that it was supposed to be 'Spider Queen', making her a unnamed hero, and thus allowing us to include multiple Spider Queens in a single army. If that's the case with the Spider Queen, it's the same with the Balrog. Problem solved.

Also, you can take multiple dragons in your armies, while there weren't many in Middle-Earth at the time of LotR..

thorgrim
01-10-2007, 21:50
It depends on which book you are using to compose your lists. In the rulebook the balrog is a named character "The Balrog". But in the Legions of middle earth book it isn't simple being listed as "Balrog". So of you use the legions book then you are free to have more than 1 balrog.

Hope this clears it up for you.

Brandir
05-10-2007, 22:54
NO NO NO NO!!!!!

One cannot have 'as many Balrogs as you want'!

Why?

Simple really. Has anybody read The Book of Lost Tales 2? I would suggest that one reads Chapter 3 The Fall of Gondolin. There one will read:

'The idea that Morgoth disposed of a host of Balrogs endured long, but in a late note my father said that only very few ever existed - at seven most'

Hope this helps.

C-Coen
07-10-2007, 10:33
So? Would you ever play a game with more than 2800 pts? :p
(Altough one of them should be Gothmog, and quite a bit stronger.. :skull: )

Hmm.. 2800 pts of Balrogs+1200 pts of Goblins (bare, so 300 lill' critters).. and some dragons.. and werewolves.. and Sauron...
Versus.. err... reallyverymany Elves and men?

parus_ater
08-10-2007, 00:56
Each and every Balrog was very different. The Balrog in Moria being of Shadow and Flame, others were of very different appearance and element.

brettz123
08-10-2007, 01:25
You purists always out to spoil everyone elses fun...... besides if Tolkien didnt want me to use 10 or 20 Balrogs he should have written down how many there actually where. I don't trust his son anyway :)

Phoenix Blaze
08-10-2007, 11:43
Each and every Balrog was very different. The Balrog in Moria being of Shadow and Flame, others were of very different appearance and element.



I'm sorry but they were all of fire, being spirits of fire. There wasn't the a water, earth and wind one, this isn't Captain Planet ;)


As I said before Tolkien said there were between 3 and 7 Balrogs.

And I'd imagine Melkor would through them all at Gondolin, being the last bastion of hope for the Elves.

Artemis
17-10-2007, 11:15
The entry for the Balrog in legions is not it's official entry. Legions is merely a reference. (See the box about named heroes in Legions p. 5) The Balrog profile can be found on page 100 of the LOTR rule book. It clearly says "The Balrog". That is not plural. So, for the purposes of the game, there is only one Balrog.

EDIT: I was a bit wrong here, upon closer inspection. If one is using Legions of Middle Earth, then per the FAQ concerning the Spider Queen there can also be fielded more Balrogs. It's a bit of a mess, really.

Ceradin
29-10-2007, 20:18
If you are doing a battle set in the First Age then I'd say its fine but technicly it is a named character.

huron
01-11-2007, 20:50
you can take as many balrogs as you want but really expensive pts but there worth it

turambar0
02-11-2007, 01:15
If you ask me, that specific Balrog is his own being and you can only have one. At the time of the Fellowship (or any time after the fall of Morgoth, including any point in the War of the Ring), he is the only KNOWN Balrog still alive. However, there were once practically armies of the guys. So though he is THE Balrog, there are others, so you could theoreretically get Balrogs without the "The" that have the same stats.