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logan054
28-09-2007, 16:13
Characters

Exalted champion of Chaos
- Mark of Khorne
- Armour of damnation
- Halberd
- Shield
Total 171pts

Exalted Champion of Chaos
- Mark of Khorne
- Helm of many eyes
- Great weapon
- Shield
Total 166pts

Core

24 Marauders of Chaos
- Great weapons
- Fullcommand
Total 193pts

24 Marauders of Chaos
- Great weapons
- Fullcommand
Total 193pts

6 knights of Chaos
- Mark of Khorne
- fullcommand
Total 293pts

5 Chaos Hounds
Total 30pts

5 Chaos Hounds
Total 30pts

5 Chaos Hounds
Total 30pts

5 Marauder Horsemen
- Flails
- Musician
Total 81pts

Special

3 Minotaurs
- Mark of Khorne
- Great weapons
Total 183pts

3 Minotaurs
- Mark of Khorne
- Great weapons
Total 183pts

6 Chaos Furies
Total 90pts

Rare

2 Bloodbeast’s of Khorne
Total 150pts

Chaos Giant
Total 205pts

Army Total: 1998pts
Model Count: 89
Dispel Dice: 5+2

MarcoPollo
28-09-2007, 18:20
Very nice list. Well balanced with speed and combat resolution.

A few things that would help min/max your game here.

1) Marauders should only ever come with hand weapon and shields with light armor. You should also have a unit of 25 after character additions. So you will need to shave some points somewhere.
2) The knorne marks on your spawn could be reduced to help find the points for your marauder units.
3) The chosen status on your knights of khorne may a bit too much overkill. It doesn't really matter if you win by 4 of 10 you still will break most opponents.
4) The problem with frenzied characters in a unit of marauders, is that only the negative effects of frenzy really apply. The unit is not immune to psychology nor is it frenzied. Plus, it cannot flee as the character does not allow for this. Also, if an enemy unit is placed properly, it can suck out the hero while the rest of the unit would have to stay put (due to wheeling etc).
Perhaps one of them in a unit of knights would be better value (with the beserker sword). Usually, you get big nasty gribblies like kroxigors etc charging khorne knights. With all this US you can usually be able to get a few more attacks. This works best with a demonic steed, or on a chariot (to increase frontage size).

Also, you may wish to reconsider the mutant monstrosity upgrade on your giant. The war banner is a better upgrade for 25 and should be a spending priority over the mutant upgrade.

But, all in all, I really like the theme of your army. It looks like it could take on all commers. With a few tweaks and some playing, I think it should be a great place to start from.

bigbear bailey
28-09-2007, 18:21
If I were you I would make all the heros aspiring with the mark of Khorne because more heros the better... If you do that it will save you 40 points allowing you to get more marauders which will help due to shooting casulaties...

Neknoh
28-09-2007, 18:27
Hrm... contrary to both of the above, my suggestion for getting points for your Marauders would be to de-choose your Knights, non-chosen Knights of Khorne still hit like a ton of bricks armed with sledgehammers.

You would free up over sevety points this way, another place of freing up points would be the Shields on the Exalteds and the Gaze off of the non-general one.

Using these points (over one hundred), fill up with five more Marauders in each unit, arm them with Lightarmour and Shields instead of Greatweapons and then give those Knights either a Warbanner or the Banner of Rage for the remaining points.

Doing this should balance out the flaws of the army, other than that, it looks pretty darn sweet as Marco said

bigbear bailey
28-09-2007, 18:34
I agree with both of them as said before but I would get rid of the ugrade on the giant, the great weapons on the marauders, and the chosen on the knights to get more marauders with light armour and shields and Maybe a aspiring champ to join the knights... Who needs a warbanner when you have a aspiring champ that can dish out 4 str 6 attacks and one str 4...

Neknoh
28-09-2007, 18:45
Chosen off of Knights + Mutant Monstrosity off of Giant = 97 points

Swapping Greatweapons for Lightarmour and Shields = free

Another 10 Marauders (5 for each unit) = 70 points

That leaves 27 points, not by far enough for an Aspiring Champion with the Mark of Khorne and a Chaos Steed.

If only those points, I'd get a Warbanner, however, as I said, I'd advice the original poster to drop the Gaze of the Gods, this would grant another 30 points, and that should be able to pay for the Banner of Rage and perhaps another Doggie or Horseman (book is up at the room ftm, don't have the strength to go get it. If banner = 50 points, which I think it does, then it's another doggie, if it equals 40, then another horseman. Otherwise, Mutant Monstrosity could be kept on the Giant and a Warbanner added to the Knights, really the original posters choice here).

logan054
28-09-2007, 19:41
First things first

1) Great weapon marauders, i have units of 20 simple cos i use the 5th ed models and lack enough to make two units of 25. When hell freezes over i'll buy the new models (can you tell i like them ;) )So i agree with what you say just isn't a option :(

2) they have great weapons as my models have great weapons, i really believe in wyswyg, again i refuse to buy the new models and im not forking out like 100 to units of 25 bearmen (when i younger i was going to do this, damnit i should have tricked my parents in getting me these for christmas).

Now onto a interesting point you have brought up, frenzied characters in units that aren't frenzied, now this is a tricky one as really marauders are only designed for generating combat res, by putting my characters here they lose all the goodness of frenzy however what is the use of all these attacks with out combat res in the first place? personally i think having a nice unit behind you is a good trade off. I have tried great weapon blocks before and usually they work well for me, simple a guy with 5 strength 6 attacks and usuall kill enough of a front rank to allow marauders to strike back.

On fleeing as far as im aware they can flee, frenzy dosnt stop you from fleeing, its being immune to psychology that does, as hes in the unit he loses it, grant, they have to overrun, still you cant have it all.

Originally i wasnt going to even use a giant, i was actually going to take a unit of bloodletters with the marauders on either flank but as i just bought a giant i decided he wants to some fun, mutant Monstrosity is great, you can control the direction he falls over!! kill a white lord BSB and 2 black knights with that last game! (evc wasnt happy!) besides i think if a giant has two heads it should be represented in game some how :)

Spawn, everyone always tells me dont mark them, its pointless, have to say i cant disagree more, firstly i use scyla as my bloodbeasts, dosnt feel right not having it, besides, this is a themed army.

If im playing to win i would use...

Characters

Exalted Champion of Chaos
- Mark of Khorne
- Barded Steed
- Shield
- Sword of Might
- armour of damnation
Total 203pts

Exalted Champion of Chaos
- Mark of Khorne
- Juggernaut of Khorne
- biting blade
- enchanted shield
- gaze of the gods
Total 240pts

Core

5 Knights of Chaos
- Mark of Khorne
- Fullcommand
- Banner of Rage
Total 310pts

6 Knights of Chaos
- Mark of Khorne
- Chosen
- Fullcommand
Total 365pts

5 Knights of Chaos
- Mark of Khorne
- Fullcommand
Total 260pts

5 Chaos Hounds - 30pts

6 Chaos Hounds - 36pts

5 Chaos Hounds - 30pts


Special

8 Chaos Furies
Total 120pts

3 Minotaurs
-Great Weapons
-Mark of Khorne
Total 183pts

Rare

Chaos Giant
- Mutant monstrosity
Total 220pts
(sometimes i change this for more minotaurs)

I find it strange however people suggest using aspiring champion or even adding a hero to chaos knights, if you add a hero to normal knights its just as powerful just they have less save. I think the only use for a aspiring champion is a BSB, 20 pts for +1 ws, a, i isnt alot really

However I think if i was playing against say the new High elves i would make every damn change you suggested! i cant see great weapon marauders having any point what so ever against them! I respect certainly what you guys are saying but i think then the list just becomes the carbon copy of the standard chaos list for infantry.

Anyways thankyou for your replies and perhaps you enlighten me as to weather i am correct on the flee issue,

bigbear bailey
28-09-2007, 20:20
Uhhh why post the list unless you want to make changes?!?!?! ha-ha...

And with the other guys who sain not enough for an aspiring champ... Your right but I did say drop the other two to aspiring (40 pts) and he could drop a kinght to make it a unit of 6... I promise he would kill more then a unit of regular khorne knights...

logan054
28-09-2007, 21:55
I didnt say i wouldnt change it however some changes i simply cant make as i dont have the models (marauders! as i said i hate the plastic ones and im to poor to buy more metal ones atm!), the great weapons is as i said, wyswyg (and i personally like them). To me it seems silly to take a hero away from the marauders as then they will get slaughtered with no one to try and kill the enemies front rank.

I agree that a exalted champion will kill more however this is how it would look, i personally think however taking a aspiring champion over a exalted is silly.

if you had say 5 knights + asp you get

4 ws6 strength 5/6/7(might have flail i guess) attacks
11 ws 5 strength 5 attacks
6 ws3 strength 4 attacks

the chosen however have

19 strength 5 ws 5 attacks
6 strength 4 ws 3 attacks

both hit pretty much everything on a 3+ and wound on a 2+ then you look at the changes on a army scale, marauders are slightly weaker, the hero's now is far less potent in a challenge (hey in khorne, i need might heros :D).

I was abit reluctant to reply at first cos i knew if i didnt like suggestions people would get the hump because i dont want to have the exact same army as every other chaos player. So why did i post it, it is however interesting to see other peoples views, they point things out i havent thought of, like here however i didnt say anything about why i had equipped my marauders that way so you useful advice was provided on changing them (which i admit is the best option but i like my models and until GW make some damn decent new marauders im not buying any more! i actual cried when i look at the price of metal ones :( :( )

MarcoPollo
29-09-2007, 02:34
I am positive about the frenzy not fleeing rule that you asked for clarity on. It works like this:

1) If the unit includes the marked character. Since the marked character cannot flee from a charge, neither can the unit when the character is in it. It works the same for slannesh characters too.

Now lets say that the character looses the frenzy for whatever reason, then the unit can flee as the character can flee with them.

Well if you have only great weapon marauders, then I say make one big unit (25 unit strength) and two smaller detachements of 10 (or maybe one at 12 if you are short on models). Have both characters in the big marauder unit and march them right into the enemy face. This would quite the anvil.

bigbear bailey
29-09-2007, 04:28
I think your army looks great...(sense that's all you wanted to hear ha-ha j/k)

You did make the idea of great weapom marauders look better for me when you but it as they can have a hero kill all the people in base... how you made the mind wonder!!!

Also I think having more heros the better man. I mean Any decent player will just shoot the **** out of your "chosen" and then make them pay with a flank charge... If your going to take a unit of khorne knights make the enemy pay for that flank with a heart crushing death wagon unit...

And I disagree with Maro Polo as you should keep the units as is...

Neknoh
29-09-2007, 07:14
"Spawn, everyone always tells me dont mark them, its pointless, have to say i cant disagree more, firstly i use scyla as my bloodbeasts, dosnt feel right not having it, besides, this is a themed army."
I didn't tell you to unmark the spawn, Bloodbeasts are NASTY at tarpitting infantry units, since they can actually cause a lot of damage with strength 5, a -2 armoursave modifier coupled with wounding on a 2+ makes those attacks that does hit very, very likely to wound a run off the mill infantry unit. I say keep them.

And based on your models, I have to agree, buying a boatload of new models just for one list isn't worth it. Marauder blocks can indeed work with Greatweapons, however, their problem is that they will be cut down by even bowfire, let allone Skinks, Handguns or Wood Elves. This is why I will still suggest bolstering their numbers (a simple unit-filler is easy enough to build, a 50mm base with an altar, or a troll or something, then you only have to add one base to them, this could be anything that kind-of-looks-right).

Now, appart from the shooting (although, I do believe you use puppies to screen them, so, not THAT big an issue), your problem at the moment is charging units with many attacks or high strength attacks. What I could typically see do some damage would be things like Beastherds and Orcs charging you. To remedy this, you could swap the Gaze of the Gods (keep the armour on your general, I personally preffer it over the Gaze, although... have you tried the Armour of Tortured Souls? I'm beginning to like it more and more), for a Helmet of Many Eyess and then take a Greatweapon, I know that it is a commonly used thing, however, it is something VERY nasty now that you are immune to Stupidity once in combat (yes, I am tired, I have a fever, I might well be wrong at this point.), striking first with a Greatweapon and the Mark of Khorne is simply very, very tasty :skull:

And the more I look at it, the more I'm liking Marco's suggestion on what to do with the Marauders, one block of 25 or more Marauders would be able to soak up a lot more firepower whilst still retaining it's rank-bonus.

And Bigbear, heroes or not, an Aspiring Champion is by FAR inferior to an Exalted Champion, and for what? Saving 20 points? Not worth it if you ask me. Besides, he will NOT get a Look Out Sir once those normal knights are blasted to smithereens, any player worth his salt with sufficient shooting will target Khornate knights wether they are chosen or not, once two goes down, the Aspiring Champion WILL go down, much too quickly for my liking. Instead, I find it better to, in that case, keep as many attacks as possible for the remaining knights, sure, you loose three attacks per knight that dies instead of two, but you also keep three attacks per knight that dies.

... and if anything other than fast cavalry (which would normally be cut down in a matter of seconds I've found) manages to charge your Chosen, you have done something wrong.

logan054
29-09-2007, 08:30
I am positive about the frenzy not fleeing rule that you asked for clarity on. It works like this:

1) If the unit includes the marked character. Since the marked character cannot flee from a charge, neither can the unit when the character is in it. It works the same for slannesh characters too.


remember that the frenzy has nothing to do with fleeing from charges, its being immune to psychology, frenzy just forces you to charge, pursue and all that stuff that is khorne.


low lets say that the character looses the frenzy for whatever reason, then the unit can flee as the character can flee with them.

Yeah very true, but this is because he would normally lose his immunity to psychology, thankfully this has never come up, the stupid thing by the rules is that he wouldn't lose frenzy from fleeing as a charger reaction, in the book it says he just followers the unit about being all grumpy.


Well if you have only great weapon marauders, then I say make one big unit (25 unit strength) and two smaller detachements of 10 (or maybe one at 12 if you are short on models). Have both characters in the big marauder unit and march them right into the enemy face. This would quite the anvil.

hang on, im lying git, i have some extra marauders with flails i can convert! man i honestly didnt think i had enough to do this, now i feel silly :(


Now, the thing with helm of many eyes is its great and dandy but i'm slightly reluctant to have it on a non undivided guy, i guess i can give it ago but i generally only use it on undivided characters. Im actually surprised people dont like gaze, he atleast gets to rally on ldr 9 (1+ while in unit) never liked the armour, to be honest 40 points thats makes me T5 but then dosnt work i need it (characters, white, daemons, certain woodies) it just seems a waste.

I think the only units that are going to be a problem are high strength units, strength 3 units should be a problem as really few hit in a 3+ so even with 6 attacks you only really expect two to die, in prolonged combat the exalted should clear a good % of ranks even against high strength units (as these i doubt will have high save).

Right ok, times to make some changes me thinks! thanks for the replies

Neknoh
29-09-2007, 08:34
The Helmet in last edition on a non-undivided character was iffy, I agree on that, however, the new rules for stupidity makes it useful.

Oh, btw, doesn't Frenzy make you Immune to Psychology as well? I think this is where Marco is coming from

logan054
29-09-2007, 10:15
yes it does but when you join a that isnt then you lose the immunity to psychology and thus you can flee by my understanding, not that this has ever come into play in any game i played. I was abit iffy about more due to being ldr 8 and spending half the game moving at half pace.

Neknoh
29-09-2007, 10:16
Average dice rolls should let you pass the tests, and, with such a unit, you will only have to pass the test two times, three at most, before ending up in combat where stupidity does not matter

logan054
29-09-2007, 16:11
Well i guess the only thin left to do is test the list, i think against certain armies however i would remove a unit of minotaurs and add in a beast herd just so i have some far better arrow absorbers :)

MarcoPollo
29-09-2007, 19:19
Still positive about frenzy. Don't have the rule book now, but may want to post it in the rules forum for clarity.

The helm is not too bad on non-undivided characters. But, it was obviously designed for undivided. Perhaps a marked lord level character with ld 9 is more trustworthy. But then again....

logan054
29-09-2007, 19:51
Well i did just read the rule again, basically frenzy just gives you +1 attack, you must purse, charge, overrun etc, onto of this its makes you immune to psychology. Its being immune to psychology that prevents you from your fleeing, obviously this is lost, while with the unit.

MarcoPollo
30-09-2007, 06:12
Its not obvious. You don't loose fear when you join a unit so why should you loose ItP. The unit must act uniformly, and if one model can't flee then neither can the rest. If you break from combat that is one thing, but flee...

logan054
30-09-2007, 09:54
Well i did double check this, page78, very first line of immune to psychology


A character that is immune to psychology and joins a unit that is not immune to psyschology loses his immunity as long as he is with the unit

The short and long of it you can never have part of a unit immune, the whole unit either is or isnt.

bigbear bailey
30-09-2007, 11:12
OHHH SICK BURN!!!

He is right though... Give him your sword General, you have lost the battle...

logan054
30-09-2007, 16:54
just another skull for the lord khorne :D

Coenono
02-10-2007, 03:02
Just a question here but since immune to psychology is a side effect of being frenzied how would he lose the immune to psychology with out loseing the frenzy?

I personaly like the list. But im not to big on giants just a personal thing i guess but 2 more bloodbeast would fit in nicely and give you some extra points for the banners and what not the others have suggested.

That being said since you have the model you proably want to use it. But anyway just my thoughts

logan054
02-10-2007, 21:46
Hi dudue, thanks for the reply, i think idea or having 4 blood beast could certainly be amusing :D I think that would be a nice alternate list to use so i people cant predict the ,its to much.

As for your question, thats just the rule is written, its a lame attempt to streamline the rules and remove, i think losing frenzy would make even less sense, i also think this would open up a whole kettle of worms like losing stupidy cos your in a non stupid unit, perhaps then you should lose fear on that same basis. Personally i dont think he should lose his immunity at all but what do i know, i just play the game and spend far to much hard earned cash on it.

Coenono
03-10-2007, 23:16
Im not much of artist or a converter,haveing the artistic appditude of a three year old. But have you considered looking for warrior shield bits and glueing them on the back of the marauders. That way you can choose hw and sheild where the xtra save might help. Or gw were you need to do extra damage?