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PlasticFork
28-09-2007, 18:40
I haven't played 40k for years... so I'm completely unfamiliar with 4th ed rules. I'm thinking about getting back into it again, and I'm wondering which army to go for.

I think my number 1 option is Dark Eldar, I used to collect them, and I like their style and tactics. However, they appear to have been a bit neglected and so far I've seen no evidence towards them getting a revamp any time soon.

2nd option is Tau, I like the idea of blasting my enemies away from afar, and they seem rather different from DE.

IG is a wildcard option... but I don't want to have to paint too many models.. though the Mechanised company sounds like an option to me.

So, ladies and gents, what are your thoughts?

Angel of the Black Parade
28-09-2007, 19:01
u gotta do Tau =)! You wont have to paint too many models if you make proper use of the heavy support choices, and they are a lot of fun to convert. They aren't paticularly difficult to paint either. they are a lot of fun tho.

the1stpip
28-09-2007, 19:10
Dark Eldar. The more players the better.

A new codex is going to happen, although it could be two years before we see it...

Spacecurves
28-09-2007, 19:21
Well dark eldar are a really fun army to play backstory and playstyle wise, but they are very hard to use well. If you are just starting playing again it might be wise to start with a more forgiving army initially.

Don't play tau I hate those commie anime wannabe blue punks!

Imperial guard are great to start with. Take some inquisitorial allies and lotsa tanks and you won't have a bazzilion infantry to paint either. I reccomend you start IG.

TheOverlord
28-09-2007, 19:30
Dark Eldar! They may have been neglected, but by the Gods, that's even more reason to play them. The knowledge that you could kick someone's ass with a nearly obsolete army is empowering :D

And Tau smell and IG's are cool... but not DE :P

Askari
28-09-2007, 19:35
Hmm... typical fanboy responses "Play these because I don't like the others"

If you used to play Dark Eldar, and are familiar with how to use them, then carrying on with using them is a good choice. They will eventually get an update if you wish to wait though.

Likewise, if the idea of Tau appeals to you, they get a lot of attention from GW. Possibly the most for a Xenos race, and they are very adept at blasting enemies from range.

In addition, if you don't want to paint a massive IG force, the Mechanized Company is an option. However, this is basically what Tau are, more mobile, heavily armoured but lesser numbers IG. So think on that.

Also, it depends which models you prefer.

Count Sinister
28-09-2007, 19:42
I think the last point is probably the most important. You really have to like the models in an army if you're going to have to put them on the gaming table in front of you every week. That's why I initially collected Tau - love the models. I had a few terrible games, though, never really got into the game, and eventually sold the army. Now, like PlasticFork, I'm eager to start playing 40k, and am trying to decide exactly the same thing - which army to collect? I like the IG models, and the tanks are cool, and so I'm leaning that way at the moment

demicanadian
28-09-2007, 20:49
I love the Tau models. The Tau army is a little different than Guard or Space Marines (no integrated heavy weaponry in the Fire Warrior squads). The Hammerhead tank is definitely a nice skimmer tank, game-wise... the Devilfish is another solid skimmer. Crisis Suits break all sorts of standard rules compared to other "infantry" units. While Space Elves have their funky skimmer tank rules, Space Commies have all sorts of funky rules as well... the learning curve is a little different with Tau.

To agree with an earlier post, I don't like the Space Commie fluff... and I don't like the limits on Farsight Enclave armies because I like Hammerheads & I like Kroot more than I like Crisis spam. Also, the only reason that I'd play pure Space Commie (to field a cool Ethereal model) is a good way to lose often, although that's the direction of my modest Tau collection.

Chaplain Mortez
28-09-2007, 21:09
With Dark Eldar, you have to be a very patient and disciplined person. Since you're not exactly new to the hobby with 4th. being what's new instead, you can probably get away with giving them a shot. But by patient and disciplined, I mean being able to accept that you may play for months or even a year before you win your first game.

Tau have great models and are very competitive like the Dark Eldar. Like demicanadian said, Crisis suits break all kinds of norms. This would be a great army to start with, provided you don't care for close combat.

Imperial Guard that are mechanized or use lots of allies can be a lot of fun, too. The "Grenadiers" doctrine, combined with Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, can give you five Chimeras and 50 troops, which is a fairly low model count (about what most marine players have), and still leave you points left over to spend on more tanks. Also a great option and I would go with this one if you feel comfortable in the tactics area of the hobby (they are tougher to play than Tau).

Luthien
28-09-2007, 21:15
Go for DE there is so few of them about these days it would make a really nice change :D

Totenkopf
28-09-2007, 21:27
You really need to go with the army that gives you some kind of feel. I need to empathise with the force I'm playing, or I just get bored. Its not just about winning, I need my army to look right. If I was a beard, I would just get a whole load of grey knight termies to teleport down while I shelled my enemies from my kriegian positions, but it just wouldnt sit with the WW2 feel I'm trying to give my army. So... all low tech high yield bombastic cannon glory for me :D And vast fields of bayonets charging after the tanks :evilgrin:

knighthawke70
28-09-2007, 21:27
strong firepower, lots of models, but kind of weak CC=IG

strong firepower, little models, but weak CC=tau

weak firepower, lots of models, but kind of weak CC, new codex coming soon, but very very fast=DE

i would go for IG, but either way what ever you do choose you will have a lot of fun

Mr Zephy
28-09-2007, 21:44
Tau will be more fun to play with, and have quite nice models.

IG are best if you enjoy painting and theming lots of models.

bigbear bailey
28-09-2007, 21:47
I play IG my self and I have to admit that my heart screams FOR THE EMPEROR but looking at what you think I advise the Tau... Their a little different from the IG and they are what storm stormtroopers should be... I advise them as you can make a mobile army that rivals the dark eldar AND has better firepower... That’s my two cents...

Outlaw289
28-09-2007, 22:47
I personally play IG, but I would recommend Tau for you. They have a good model count (neither high or low), can be played static or very mobile (unlike IG's static or blazing 6" Chimera steamroller), and has been said, Godlike Firepower

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4793/1190930466633ea4.jpg

PlasticFork
29-09-2007, 00:20
Hmm, thanks everyone for your input so far.

It's given me a lot to mull over.. I think IG are probably the easiest to convert. Tau are probably really good to play with, but I probably empathise with them the least. However, they're probably the most forgiving tactically. And I still have a soft-spot for DE.

I think I'll see what other people play as in the area too. It might tip the balance.

Ktotwf
29-09-2007, 00:30
Imperial Guard are the best army. Move along.

PlasticFork
29-09-2007, 00:50
Imperial Guard are the best army. Move along.

Why are they the best?

Ktotwf
29-09-2007, 00:53
They aren't strictly speaking "the best" in terms of winning. The Imperial Guard is one of the weaker lists there is (not unwinnable by any means, but certainly not as competitive as Space Marines or Eldar).

What is so satisfying about the Guard is that 1. it makes you feel like you have accomplished more with less when you win, 2. the Imperial Guard is the best faction in terms of fluff (so much variety, so many ways to go), and 3. in terms of pure power, on a large scale, the Imperial Guard is the most powerful of all the factions in the game universe.

Essentially, playing Imperial Guard is like playing a legitimate human army against a bunch of supernatural threats.

Hokiecow
29-09-2007, 01:44
Dark Eldar! nuff said

Fist full of Pills
29-09-2007, 01:50
DE what else!!! oh you could of had a V8!!!

Raven1
29-09-2007, 02:31
CSM FTW!!1!

oh wait that wasn't an option...um...I've lately been interested in the DE, but you have done them before. So, the question to me lies in this go with what you know or try something new. The DE will cost less since you probably have some models
I would go with either the Tau or the DE

demicanadian
29-09-2007, 03:49
Tau fluff does stink compared to the image of your standard Guardsman fighting against the unrelenting monstrosities that are trying to destroy humanity... it's the rules set-up & the army set-up that makes the Tau seem interesting to me, and not the fluff.

And, ultimately, the Tau are my Xeno army of choice because of their looks. They're the reason why I started looking at 4th ed, actually. I love the mecha-style Crisis Suits & the clean skimmer tanks. They remind me of the Protoss from Starcraft, mixed with the anime thing - clean & tech-y. I also love the "Native" look of the Kroot... which lends a little more variety to your Tau force.

I do like the Imperial Guard tanks a lot, but as manly as the Leman Russ or Basilisk may be, I just prefer the cleaner look of the Tau skimmers. That's my $0.02, anyway.

Remoah
29-09-2007, 04:10
I think the last point is probably the most important. You really have to like the models in an army if you're going to have to put them on the gaming table in front of you every week. That's why I initially collected Tau - love the models. I had a few terrible games, though, never really got into the game, and eventually sold the army. Now, like PlasticFork, I'm eager to start playing 40k, and am trying to decide exactly the same thing - which army to collect? I like the IG models, and the tanks are cool, and so I'm leaning that way at the moment

Go guard, i can tell you now, nothing freaks an opponent more than going 'meh' to loosing 2 whole squads from one shooting turn.
Guard are far better at shooting than tau, the only decent tau units i've ever faced are stealth suits and crisis/broadside suits, and those can generally be ignored or destroyed with blast markers.

Anyhow, guard armies are great fun, 3 russ tanks, 6 infantry squads in 2 platoons of 3 squads, with a couple of fire support squads, kasrkin, ratlings... that's basically it, just fill your heavy support as quickly as possible, and load up on around 6-8 squads of infantry.

Infantry may seem like a chore to paint, but mine i can do in less than an hour per squad, and they turn out fairly good, nothing spectacular, i mean, but they look great all formed up (cadians BTW)
Catachan green for the clothes.
Chaos Black for the boots, armour, helmet and weapons.
Boltgun Metal-Chainmail on the weapon's metal bits.
Tin Bitz-Shining Gold onto the imperial eagles.
Tanned Flesh-Dwarf Flesh-Elf Flesh for the skin.

Voila, whole squad painted like the 110th cadian look, though alot more 'gritty', they look awesome all lined up and all. You can drybrush the fatigues either camo green, goblin green on rotting flesh, depending on your personal choice (i go for camo green), and the armour Codex Grey if you want.

But guard infantry are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO easy to paint, some of the easiest models out there, alot better than Marines to paint, actually!

Elric101
29-09-2007, 05:12
As a hardcore IG player I'm telling you that you can't go wrong.

While tau are great fun to play for you, they are incredibly frustrating to play against on the verge of being unfun for your opponent. When IG rock up the opponent knows that the battle will turn into one serious bloodbath.

In other words tau are fun to play as, but not so much against. But that's from an IG perspective.

And listen to Remoah, many people badmouth IG as being inferior to tau in the shooting phase due to lack of mobility. But don't listen to this, Tau may have the railgun, but for every railgun we have 3 lascannons. The quality of our shots may not be amazing, but we have quantity.

Besides that, go with the army you see a connection with, and get the codex before you even check warseer for info. I'm trying to choose in fantasy and the pitfall for me was knowingTOO much about each army, finding holes in all of them.

It took me 3 armies to find IG (SM and 'nids first)

Good luck with your choice!

Askari
29-09-2007, 11:10
strong firepower, lots of models, but kind of weak CC=IG

strong firepower, little models, but weak CC=tau

weak firepower, lots of models, but kind of weak CC, new codex coming soon, but very very fast=DE

i would go for IG, but either way what ever you do choose you will have a lot of fun

You've never played against Dark Eldar have you?

Weak Firepower and kind of weak CC you say.
Haha. The Dark Eldar have so much firepower it's unbelievable, and Incubi and Wyches most definately are not kind of weak in CC, infact, many consider them the best combat units point-for-point.
The Dark Eldar weakness is frailty, not low damage output.


Guard are far better at shooting than tau, the only decent tau units i've ever faced are stealth suits and crisis/broadside suits, and those can generally be ignored or destroyed with blast markers.

No, Guard have more numbers than Tau, they are not better at shooting, since they have equal BS on standard Troops and worse weapons.

But people don't look at them right anyway. Tau are like a mobile, more armoured version of the Imperial Guard, which in turn are a more numerous, heavy/special weapon using version of the Tau.

Elric101
29-09-2007, 11:54
But Imperial Guard has the most powerful weapon of them all.

Determination, and an indomitable will to never back down regardless of the odds placed against them.

That is something Tau will never have.

In game terms, Imperial Guard win in slugfests and wars of attrition due to the overwhelming number of models/wounds they can bring to the table.

PlasticFork
29-09-2007, 13:38
You've never played against Dark Eldar have you?

Weak Firepower and kind of weak CC you say.
Haha. The Dark Eldar have so much firepower it's unbelievable, and Incubi and Wyches most definately are not kind of weak in CC, infact, many consider them the best combat units point-for-point.
The Dark Eldar weakness is frailty, not low damage output.

A friend and I once put an squad of wyches toe to toe with an equal number of Khorne Berzerkers. I can't remember the exact details, but the berzerkers won, though far from easily. There were equal numbers of models on either side, but not points.

I used to keep a "devastator" squad of Warriors quite far back, armed with a couple of dark lances. I remember the glee of handing out some serious damage in the few games I played.

MysteryGilgamesh
29-09-2007, 15:40
Tau are probably really good to play with, but I probably empathise with them the least. However, they're probably the most forgiving tactically.

Tau aren't that forgiving, tactically. Crisis are expensive, FW crumble if anything ever gets into CC with them, and they work best in assault range, sadly.

Especially if you follow the fluff and go full Mech Tau, if you make a mistake, it's hard/impossible to recoup, and if the other guy brings Indirect Ordinance (IG, those broken, cheesy bastards :mad: ), you might as well not even bother putting Crisis on the table-They WILL die.

IG are easily the most tactically forgiving, because for every dude you lose, you can afford 20 more to replace him.

Elric101
29-09-2007, 16:10
Wait, you're calling IG forgiving?

And Tau a weaker codex? That's crazy.

It is your opinion though, so I'll leave it at that.

But let me tell you, IG have a terrible time overcoming most other armies, especially Tau. You ignore our armour saves with your basic gun, our tanks crumble before the all-powerful railgun, and on top of that you outmaneouvre us by massive amounts. Even if we are packing 3 basilisks, there are ways to deal with that.

And besides, having 3 basilisks means the hammerheads just start shooting the crap out of guardsmen with the big blast template.

But maybe that's just me. I've had some pretty bad experiences against tau in my time.

PlasticFork
30-09-2007, 15:18
Right, I think I'm verging on a decision, and going down the path that Chaplain Mortez suggested, having a mechanised company with Grenadiers, Stormtroopers Doctrines etc. I was thinking of converting the vehicles to look as if they were not only the soldier's mechanised beasts of burden, but also their homes as well.

I'm not sure if I'll win many games with this kind of army, but I'm not overly worried by that. I'll think about DE another time, perhaps when they've updated the models a bit.

Has there been a new codex since the one when Doctrines were first introduced?

MysteryGilgamesh
30-09-2007, 16:59
Wait, you're calling IG forgiving?
It is your opinion though, so I'll leave it at that.
But maybe that's just me. I've had some pretty bad experiences against tau in my time.

I don't know about you, but when my Mech Tau (not a tourny style list, just lots of FW filled Devilfish, no Kroot, etc.) can deal with 3.5 Chaos (one of the define broken Codex's, I'm sure most agree) with ease when vs.'ing a 30 year old guy who has been playing for years, but the same Mech Tau gets stomped by a *********** 12 year old IG player who barely knows WTF he's doing (but is following all the rules), I'm inclined to say the list is *********** broken.

I can admit I make tactical goofs (Hell, my 1st Eldar game yesterday I lost because I made a bunch of stupid tactical blunders), but I didn't goof up. IG was and still is just *********** broken in my experiences in both 2nd and 4th. They're the only army, in every edition I've played, that I consistently lose vs.

Captain Micha
30-09-2007, 17:27
Have you considered being guard?

cause if you know you can't beat them.. maybe you should join them.

So you can learn how to beat them so much more savagely later.

MysteryGilgamesh
30-09-2007, 20:17
Have you considered being guard?

cause if you know you can't beat them.. maybe you should join them.

So you can learn how to beat them so much more savagely later.

Can't. I hate the ***** models ("DUUUR I IZ ARMY OF RAMBO!"), the fluff is boring as **** ("I'm an 8ft tall superman." "I'm a dying race fighting for survival." and "Greater Good! Whether you like it or not comrade!" vs. "I'm average Joe!"? No contest which is better here IMHO), and I just hate every last cheesy *********** bit of them.

TYRANOODLE
30-09-2007, 20:35
The one you like the look of most. There is no point getting an army just because its powerful. You need to get an army you can stare at in admiration for hours on end

Elric101
01-10-2007, 04:03
MysteryGilgamesh, I strongly suggest you watch what you say.

Attacking IG carelessely like that is going to get you in trouble one day. If you want to show your distaste for IG, then go have a whinge to your gaming group, just don't do it here. A lot of people, including me get offended by your pointless ranting.

If you persist, do it in a nice way.

As to the OP, imperial guard is a good choice. You really have to choose the army which you see the most connection with, and are prepared to lose with at first. I've lost the majority of my IG games, but I just keep playing because I love them so damn much.

And one day I'll start winning, and be grateful for the choice I made.

Go with your gut instinct, that's the best way.

Ktotwf
01-10-2007, 05:33
In game terms, Imperial Guard win in slugfests and wars of attrition due to the overwhelming number of models/wounds they can bring to the table.


Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Play IG that way and lose hard.

IG wins through superior firepower. Plasma Guns, Tanks, and Heavy Weapons.

Higgen
01-10-2007, 06:05
Actually, that's not wrong. Max out on Special/Heavy Weapons and even if you win the game, you're not going to do it without taking massive casualties. That's the reason Guard are generally incapable of winning tournaments, coupled with low maneuverability. Redundancy is what defines the Guard, whether that is firepower, tanks, or men.

@ Plasticfork: You've made a good choice when you chose what most appealed to you modelwise and fluffwise, as long as winning isn't too important to you. I have to forewarn you, though. When you field both expensive troops and expensive tanks simulateously is where Guard is weakest. Mechanised can work competitively, but only when you use the most basic Guardsmen to back up your Chimaeras. You need those points desperately for at least 4 Chimaeras.

Ktotwf
02-10-2007, 02:07
Actually, that's not wrong. Max out on Special/Heavy Weapons and even if you win the game, you're not going to do it without taking massive casualties. That's the reason Guard are generally incapable of winning tournaments, coupled with low maneuverability. Redundancy is what defines the Guard, whether that is firepower, tanks, or men.


You're inventing a bit of a strawman here- they win because of Firepower. The high redundancy only allows them to continue to deliver that firepower.

What I took him to be saying was that large numbers of lasgun wielding goons were the reason that the Guard wins.

Hand of Dume
02-10-2007, 02:19
dark eldar. why shoot from afar when you can be up close and personal enough to feel their last breath!

bhusus
02-10-2007, 04:47
Interesting choices - my brother played DE as his first army and then started collecting Tau as his second; both armies are so different fluff-wise and the way they play. I've noticed you mentioned a soft spot for the DE; if you don't like the minis you'll have to be willing to convert (I've seen a lot of really good ones). Also they are a highly mobile with some of the meanest CC in the game. Tau are exactly the opposite (still mobile) but basically you want to move backwards and shoot and avoid CC as much as possible as even Kroot don't really hold up against most enemies. I personally love the IG but I've never gotten into playing them for the same reason you mention - too many models. Perhaps you need to give us some more information regarding when you plan on starting the army, how large of a force you are aiming for and whether or not you like the minis in the ranges you've been looking into.

Higgen
02-10-2007, 07:31
What I took him to be saying was that large numbers of lasgun wielding goons were the reason that the Guard wins.

Ah, I see. I didn't get where you were coming from. The reason I piped up was because of my experiences with Guard. Basically, just about every time I win, my dead pile is at least the same size as my opponent's. Didn't want him thinking that Guard is simply a glass cannon.

PlasticFork
02-10-2007, 11:31
Interesting choices - my brother played DE as his first army and then started collecting Tau as his second; both armies are so different fluff-wise and the way they play. I've noticed you mentioned a soft spot for the DE; if you don't like the minis you'll have to be willing to convert (I've seen a lot of really good ones). Also they are a highly mobile with some of the meanest CC in the game. Tau are exactly the opposite (still mobile) but basically you want to move backwards and shoot and avoid CC as much as possible as even Kroot don't really hold up against most enemies. I personally love the IG but I've never gotten into playing them for the same reason you mention - too many models. Perhaps you need to give us some more information regarding when you plan on starting the army, how large of a force you are aiming for and whether or not you like the minis in the ranges you've been looking into.

I was looking at the Armoured Company rules last night, just for gits and shiggles, a 750pts army had 1 HQ and 2 Troops. Not really workable methinks (as a main army). Mechanised it'd have to be.

The thing is, I'm at uni at the moment, so my budget is a little stretched. I've just had a look at noneedforaname's WIP DE, which has demonstrated that they can look good.

As for Tau, I had an idea about a hunter cadre that gets cut off from the Empire, and becomes a bit.. darker... in its outlook in order to survive. Paint scheme, black over all, with dark red as a secondary colour. I like the models, but they strike me as a bit nancy for want of a better word.

As for army size, I'd probably go for an army that is 500 pts at first, then 750, 1,000, 1,500 then 2,000 (eventually). I'd start collecting between now and Xmas.

bhusus
02-10-2007, 14:42
Yeah I just finished an MA so I understand about the budget. In strictly monetray terms I'd go for DE then as you can find those second-hand fairly easy. When we started, everyone who had ever bought a starter set gave all of their DE to my brother because they were just sitting around; he went from nothing to 60-80 Dark Eldar warriors in little time. Also if you're converting anyway it doesn't matter what the new models look like, as the work you've put into yours will outshine them. That being said, the way new rules are coming out, whole units are becoming obsolete or changed so much the old army list might not even stand when the new codex is released. From that perspective I'd go with the Tau; the idea you mention reminds me of O'Shovah's fluff and ideas for that list are in the Tau Empire Codex anyway - the only real differences are restrictions on units used and the possibility of a relatively large bodyguard for O'Shovah. As for the IG, if you plan on mechanizing them anyway, you might just be better off with the Tau OR go the valkyrie route for something truly different, but that is fairly expensive and I don't know when GW plans on releasing their own version of that model.