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drdenner
28-09-2007, 18:54
1 : May a unit of 25 Night Gobins with 3 fanatics (5x5 block) reform into (25x1 line) and then get alot closer to an enemy unit and release the Fanatics?

2 : How does the spell "Mork Wants Ya " work on a mountet monster, do i pick up both ridder and mount, or can pick one of them. What initiative do they test at if both are picked up?

Brodrick
28-09-2007, 19:39
:eyebrows:I would be very careful about using a fanatic slingshot. That would be a quick way to get a box of skull pass thrown at your head.

AdamAtCollege
28-09-2007, 19:50
I've never thought of that slingshot idea, but if that's legal... Awesome. But I have a feeling there's a rule about ranks or something that would stop that.

Doc Havoc
28-09-2007, 20:06
Technically, the slingshot is legal, but then again there are rules stating that no model may move more than twice it's movement rate as well. If someone really wanted to try this against me I would make them measure the movement of every model to ensure they did it correctly. If somone wants to abuse the rules to win then I shall abuse the rules to make sure they don't enjoy thier victory.

It is also easy to argue that it is illegal because it is against the spirit of the rules.

So, again... discuss it with your opponents first or make a house rule for your group.

ZomboCom
28-09-2007, 23:43
reforming from 5x5 to 25x1 is not legal, because during a reform no model may move more than double it's movement distance. In this case some models will be moving significantly more than that.

The fanatic slingshot is another matter all together, where a narrow unit wheels round a small distance to fling the back of the unit a lot further, and why it's technically legal it's beyond morally reprehensible.

Urgat
29-09-2007, 00:35
I've never thought of that slingshot idea, but if that's legal... Awesome. But I have a feeling there's a rule about ranks or something that would stop that.


It's legal, it's something that has existed for as long as fanatics have existed, and it's extremely bad sport, I don't recommand ever using it if you want to keep your friends (there's a couple other tactics in the same vein like the fanatic catapult, but let's not spread such nefast knowledge :p -well I do like the catapult, even if I have never tried it myself).

As for Mork wants you, you pick up one or the other, not both. You can pick either, you can pick anything you want in a 12" radius. This spell is the bane of undead armies led by a necromancer, btw.

Brodrick
29-09-2007, 01:42
reforming from 5x5 to 25x1 is not legal, because during a reform no model may move more than double it's movement distance. In this case some models will be moving significantly more than that.

The fanatic slingshot is another matter all together, where a narrow unit wheels round a small distance to fling the back of the unit a lot further, and why it's technically legal it's beyond morally reprehensible.

You are right, I measured it out and 25 wouldn't be possible, although 20 wouldn't be a poblem. Would venture to say that 22 would also be possible, but didn't try.

Asfor the slingshot, that is what i thought he was implying when he said move a little closer.

Atrahasis
29-09-2007, 04:11
then again there are rules stating that no model may move more than twice it's movement rate as well.Which don't apply when simply wheeling.

T10
29-09-2007, 14:53
2 : How does the spell "Mork Wants Ya " work on a mountet monster, do i pick up both ridder and mount, or can pick one of them. What initiative do they test at if both are picked up?

The spell allows you to pick up a character separately from the monster he is riding. It seems reasonable to assume that you should be allowed to pick up the monster separately as well, but that isn't explicitly stated.

I guess you could declare the whole character-on-monster model as a target of the spell, in which case the model makes its Initiative test against the model's best initiative (usually that of the character) and if the test is failed the hits caused are distributed as shooting.

-T10

Da GoBBo
29-09-2007, 16:41
I don't have the rulebook with me, but I thought it wasn't allowed to expand your frontage with more than 5 models in one turn.

Festus
29-09-2007, 17:38
Hi

You may addor deduct up to 10 files for your whole movement. As he is only deducting 4 files, this is not the problematic part...

Atrahasis
29-09-2007, 17:44
I don't have the rulebook with me, but I thought it wasn't allowed to expand your frontage with more than 5 models in one turn.

No, the rules even explicitly state that a unit can add up to 10 models to the front rank.

Atrahasis
29-09-2007, 20:00
The spell allows you to pick up a character separately from the monster he is riding.I'm not sure it does.

The character part of "a character on a monster" is not a model, and only models are valid targets of the spell.

The model is "a character on a monster". (pp59).

Festus
29-09-2007, 21:02
Hi

I agree - the spell specifies model, so the whole model it is...

Festus

T10
30-09-2007, 12:22
It may be that I am wrong, but I've always read into this the option of applying the damage on solely the character rather than distributing this between character and mount.

The spell allows the caster to target a single enemy model with the following exceptions to the targeting requirements:

1. No line of sight required.
2. The model can be targeted even if within a unit.
3. The model can be "a character mounted on a monstrous steed or chariot".

The latter is entirely superfluous. The only time monsters and chariots cannot be picked out directly is if they are in combat, are in a unit or are out of line of sight.

The Foot of Gork can also be used on models that are "a character mounted on a monstrous steed or chariot" under the right circumstances, but the designers refrains from stating this, though they repeat this verbatim for the 'Eadbutt spell.

From the point of view that "I want to have Mork pick up that General of the Empire there off of his Griffon and squash him a bit!", the phrasing of the spell kind of allows it: It fails to tell us that the character can be treated as a model separate from the moster.

-T10

Urgat
30-09-2007, 13:20
I've always played it as "pick up the rider or the mount", it's quite obviously what is intended with that spell, and no amount of RAW will ever make me change that. There's limits to everything, you know...
besides it does say you can pick up a character mounted on a monstruous steed, this takes some really large assumptions to read that it means you can take the guy and the mount at the same time. The wording means you take him FROM the mount, if you follow the comparison with the character in the unit). I'll kindly remind you that they do count as two models anyway, since you can kill either and the other one will happily go round without either mount or rider, you don't remove both when one is killed. The reading they count as one would be valid if the spell was a projectile, but it's something that picks one target (I think this spell is actually the closest thing you can get for chirurgical strike in Warhammer), so I'll choose the target the same way I do when in combat, because it says so, I can pick anything I want in 18".

Festus
30-09-2007, 13:22
Hi

I really honestly do not know, as I have only the German O&G book, but to me it seems that the spell targets a model, and I do not feel it allows you to pick a part of a model. But that might just be me reading the German book...

Festus

Atrahasis
30-09-2007, 14:26
The relevant rules from the English rulebooks:

"A monster and its rider or riders are count as a single model in the same way as a cavalry model" pp59 BRB

"As a single model, the the monster and its [sic] rider are considered to be a single target" pp60 BRB (from the section titled shooting, but that section also covers magic)

"Cast this on a single enemy model anywhere within 18" of the shaman (line of sight is not required, even a model in a unit can be picked out, as can a character on a monstrous steed or chariot)" pp40 O&G.

The spell specifies a single model, and the rules covering monsters are clear - the character on monster is a single model and a single target for ranged attacks. The use of the phrase "monstrous steed" indicates that whoever wrote the spell really had no idea what they were doing (steed has no meaning in 7th edition, and in previous editions "monstrous steed" was a contradiction in terms).

I'd allow an opponent to pick out the rider, as that's what I think the author intended, but if I wanted to do it and an opponent objected I wouldn't be able to argue.

Festus
30-09-2007, 14:43
Hi

Thanks for the quote.

Yes, I do see it the same way as you, Atrahasis. Pitty, that they cannot make their rules a bit clearer and more concise :(

As of the rules, the damage has to be distributed like shooting, though ... :)

Festus

Urgat
30-09-2007, 15:12
Pitty, that they cannot make their rules a bit clearer and more concise :(

That's Matt Ward for you, gloating that he managed to have the fanatic rules fit in a single page (he actually did, in White Dwarf, lol -was the fanatic dying when touching any terrain feature part of the deal, too, Matt?), and completly messing up lots of other rules. The O&G books is riddled with such ambiguous rules.
And GW really do not seem eager to deliver a FAQ anytime soon either...