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eyeolas
28-09-2007, 21:35
I've had a bit of a points crisis and needed to take away about 40 points, so I looked over to my 2 blocks of 20 skeletons (Tomb kings)

my rough army:

Tomb King on chariot
tomp prince
liche priest on horse
liche priest (herophant)
20 skeles with command
20 skeles with command
10 heavy horses with command
2 Tomb swarms
3 chariots with command and regeneration banner
20 grave guard with command
3 ushabti

It's a very combat oriented list, that uses it's 7 spells a turn (8 on one turn) to get some free rounds of combat in, or to get into combat.

The probelm is: are the two blocks of skeles better off with spears and shields, or light armour, swords and shields (or one of each). One of those units will have to house my herophant, so which is the better option?

Cromenon
28-09-2007, 21:39
what do you plan to do with the skellies?
a) charge!!!
b) wait and be charged

if your answer is a) - light armor
if it's b) - spears

quick 'n' easy :)

eyeolas
28-09-2007, 21:48
Well, lets see:

Tomb King on chariot - Charge!
tomp prince - Charge!
liche priest on horse - help others Charge!
liche priest (herophant) - help others Charge!
20 skeles with command - ???
20 skeles with command - ???
10 heavy horses with command - Charge!
2 Tomb swarms - Charge! warmachines or flanks
3 chariots with command and regeneration banner - Charge!
20 grave guard with command - Charge!
3 ushabti - Charge!

I'm going to go with charge :P

Jerak
28-09-2007, 22:09
Always give your skellies armour never spears. There not there to kill things and trust me even with spears they wont do a thing. the 4+ save does a lot more for your combat res than trying to kill something.

Jerak

eyeolas
28-09-2007, 22:20
To the mathhammer vs some basic elf swordsmen.

Light armour, you charge:

6 attacks, 3 hit, 1.5 wounds, .75 kills (round to 1)

5 attacks back, 2.5 hit, 1.25 wound, .625 kills (slightly higher due to .25 attack(round to 1))

not very good for the combat resolution

spears, you get charged.

6 attacks at you, 3 hit, 1.5 wound, 1 kill

10 attacks back, 5 hit, 2.5 wound, 1.25 kill (round to 1)

there isn't really a difference in 1:1.25 than to 6.3:.75, so for 20 extra points I don't see it as worth it.

huitzilopochtli
28-09-2007, 23:25
light armour is always more useful than spears. if nothing else spears are hard to rank up, but more often than not i find that a 4+ as saves my skellies a lot of the time as well.

He Who Is Him
29-09-2007, 02:22
And where are the 7 spells? As I see it you have 5 (TK = 2, TP = 1, LP = 1, LP = 1) or 6 if you count the banner of the Undying legion (unless you have some other equipment you didn't list). You're thinking of power dice. Of those 5, or 6, spells, you probably will only get about three off a turn if your opponent has any worthwhile magic. That means that you're going to be able to magic move about 3 units per turn and since you have 3 units that have a move of 4, 2 with 8, and 2 in-between (5 and 6 i believe), your army is affectively moving at 8" per turn, which means you'll reach your opponent on your 3rd turn.

You may be asking yourself, "How does this relate to my original question of spears vs light armor?"

Since your army won't get there till the 3rd turn, they'll have the **** shot out of them, so go for the light armor. The +1 armor save vs missile fire will help u get there, and the +2 armor save they get in CC is worth more than 5 extra WS2 S3 attacks. Skele warriors are their for numbers and soaking up wounds, not a lot else (unless you give them bows and run Queen Khalida...ALL HAIL THE ASP QUEEN).

eyeolas
29-09-2007, 10:36
I have some other magic items I haven't said on my characters, one of which is the bound magic missile spell.

each turn I have:

2 spells as normal for TKs
2 spells chosen from the extra move or shoot with 6" range
1 spell chosen from the extra move or shoot on the tomb guard
1 bound 3 resurection spell on the tomb guard
1 bound 4 magic missile on the opponents
1 spell as normal for TKs once a game

If the opponent has lets say 4 dispell dice (everage magic) then I'm getting 3 spells off guaranteed, and the 4 dispell dice should take out 2 spells on average, so I should get 5 past. Even if the opponent has 7 dispell dice from 4 wizards, I should get 3-4 spells off, and that's without using the hieratic jar.

My army will move prety quick, and the chariots should get in turn 2 unless the opponent moves back.

He Who Is Him
02-10-2007, 03:22
That still makes no sense. you have 5 spells (already laid out) and 3 bound items (one which isn't in range the 1st turn unless you charge a priest on a mount his full move straight forward). List what generates each spell, this is how I see it:
TK - 2 spells at 1 die
TP - 1 spell at 1 die
LP - 1 spell at 2 dice
LP - 1 spell at 2 dice

All your bound items aren't going to give you any movement spells (the closets is a free reform). If you are playing someone with any skill, he'll dispell most of your spells with 1 power die spells (probably 3 of them if he has only 4 dispell dice, but we'll play it safe and say 2) that means 4 spells of your choice. He won't try to dispell your bound items because they either won't be in range, or won't matter (bringing back a max of 3 wounds isn't or a free reform aren't as big as an other movement). So you will still only be getting about 4 spells (of your choosing) off per turn without the jar. And the fact that your opponent might have some, oh I don't know, dispell scrolls, means you'll be getting even less off, and moving your army less. Your mathhammer is off

eyeolas
02-10-2007, 17:15
The bound spells are there as distractions. They are spread throughout my magic phase to try and use up a few of the opponent's dispel dice so I can use the much more effective move spells to a much better effect.

warlord hack'a
02-10-2007, 19:05
You are fogertting that you first need to succesfully cast your spell, and only after that the enemy can choose to dispel. This will result in dispel dice being much more efficient than power dice.. BUt back to your original question, I think skellies with light armour, HW and shield are much better than spear + shield. Skellies are not there to kill the enemy, that's where your chariots and tombkings and ushabti and tomb guard come into the picture..

Kadrium
02-10-2007, 20:08
Also, what do you mean by "command" on your units? Tell me you're not including musicians. If you are, drop them, and you'll have the points you need.

He Who Is Him
02-10-2007, 22:36
warlord hack'a - TK don't need to successfully cast, they cast like bound spells. The power level is really only for there for dispell attempts (and maybe a miscast).

eyeolas - a decent opponent won't be tempting into using power dice on throw-away bound spells (especially if they're not in range). Give your opponents some credit. And the commands are a waste, pretty much across the board. Most of my units just have a standard bearer, I only run a command in my Tomb guard (and even then no musician) and sometimes I put a champ with my chariots (only about 10% of the time). In regards to skele warriors, an extra WS2 S3 attack for 10pts and giving your opponent a model to challenge just isn't worth it.

Scythe
03-10-2007, 10:00
Also, what do you mean by "command" on your units? Tell me you're not including musicians. If you are, drop them, and you'll have the points you need.

Musicians can be golden. You will be smacking your head into a wall the moment you don't autobreak an opponent because you went cheap and left the musician at home. For the few points it cost, ALWAYS take a musician on combat orientated units like skeleton blocks.

The champions advantages are a little more dubious tough. Still, the ability to accept a challenge and preventing a character from disintegrating half a unit or tearing your tomb king to pieces can be quite usefull.

warlord hack'a
03-10-2007, 10:02
ooops, indeed, they do not roll, silly me. Well, then indeed any bound item is inferior to exrta move or extra attcks etc, alghout I have not been scare dyet by an extra round of normal bow fire or hth by skellies..

eyeolas
03-10-2007, 19:58
The ability to accept chalenges and the guaranteed 2 attacks is golden for 10 points, espeshaly for the unit my liche priest Hierophant will go in (with cloak of dunes, so he can make a break for it if the heat is up, but there is always still the chance of a surprise charge).

Musicians are definately worth it. With basic skeles vs other basic men I'd expect in a 1 on 1 with that unit to lose by 1 each turn. If I don't have a musician then I have to not only even out that 1, but get another one to win a combat, which with skeles is prety to get 2 extra kills on a unit that's better than them. The only neading a slightly over average roll ability of the musician is golden, and for 5 points it's a steal.

banners are definately in there, since TK can't run there is no chance of losing banners for the extra VPs at the end.

You may not fear an extra turn of skeles attacking you, but just causing one wound will usually mean you are one less rank bonus than you should be, meaning I am one up on you at the begining of the real combat, which will make a difference

He Who Is Him
03-10-2007, 23:01
the ability to accept a challenge and preventing a character from disintegrating half a unit or tearing your tomb king to pieces can be quite usefull.

With the undead, all those extra wounds your champion will take (and he'll take plenty against most characters) when challenged by a character will end up being carried over as wounds in CR when you lose in combat. But eyeolas is right in saying the champ will help if the unit will be holding his priest.

And I usually set-up my units where one wound (or ever a few) won't change my rank bonus if that's what the unit is there for (as skele warriors usually are).

Scythe
09-10-2007, 08:30
With the undead, all those extra wounds your champion will take (and he'll take plenty against most characters) when challenged by a character will end up being carried over as wounds in CR when you lose in combat. But eyeolas is right in saying the champ will help if the unit will be holding his priest.


Khorne character tears trough unit: inflicts 6 casualties. With combat resolution, you lose another 6 skeletons. Total damage: 12 models

Khorne characters tears trough skeleton champion: 1 wound, 5 wounds overkill. With combat resolution, you lose 6 skeletons: Total damage: 7 models.

See my point? ;)

warlord hack'a
09-10-2007, 13:30
at Eyeolas: BRB page 80: "Standards are also captured if an enemy unit is completely destroyed in close combat, in which case there is no need to pursue".

So be careful with your standards, even if you are undead!

CaptScott
09-10-2007, 13:49
at Eyeolas: BRB page 80: "Standards are also captured if an enemy unit is completely destroyed in close combat, in which case there is no need to pursue".

So be careful with your standards, even if you are undead!

Yet another reason to take the light armour option. Saving your troops, rank bonus, and making sure you outnumber the enemy is to important for undead.