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skavenguy13
12-04-2005, 19:47
Yet another question from me. I wondered if you could redirect charges when the target is fleeing. I'm asking this because I have a funny plan: send my night runners 1" in front of Khorne knights and flee when they charge. But can the knights then redirect the charge even if they catch the fleeing unit?

Major Defense
12-04-2005, 23:10
You should wait for Sylass to drop his golden two cents but I'm pretty sure I read in a FAQ that the Khorne knights would move up to their full charge distance in the direction they charged, stopping 1" from enemy units behind your Night Runners. Very clever idea because then you would guarantee your own choice of charges.

Festus
13-04-2005, 09:55
Hi

As soon as the Knights declare the charge, the NR choose their reaction.

If they choose flee, the flee immediately, leaving the knights with the decision to

1. run after the original fleeing target to catch and destroy them or
2. choose a different target that just became *newly revealed* (i.e. not being able to be charged before the NG fled) and charge this instead.

Greetings
Festus

skavenguy13
14-04-2005, 20:16
Does this also works if the unit is frenzy? And my big question was: If they can go faster than the fleeing unit and could kill it, do you HAVE TO do it?

warlord hack'a
14-04-2005, 21:39
good question: I think they may choose to redirect but I am not sure because there is an eays target within range. Note that if you are 1" in fornt of them that you will get destroyed because the knights will moe 14" and your max move is 13" + 1" = 14" so they catch and destroy you. I wonder: are they then allowed to make an overrun move? The rule says: if all enemy modesl get slain in the first round of hth you are allowed to make an overrun move. My question is: is charging and running down the enemy that fled your charge a 'first round of close combat'.?

What you could do (and is frequently done against chaos knights) is position you unit just within charge range and to the side of the knight unit. Then he has to charge, fails his charge and is moved 7" in the direction of the unit they were charging (so to the side). Do this trick two times to expose their flank or multiple times to lead them off the battlefield entirely. This does require good manouvering and of course rallying your fleeing troops but probably you will spend less points in troops to divert him than he has put in the knight unit..

BullBuchanan
14-04-2005, 22:55
Hi

As soon as the Knights declare the charge, the NR choose their reaction.

If they choose flee, the flee immediately, leaving the knights with the decision to

1. run after the original fleeing target to catch and destroy them or
2. choose a different target that just became *newly revealed* (i.e. not being able to be charged before the NG fled) and charge this instead.

Greetings
Festus


Well as soon as he decalares that he's fleeing it counts as a failed charge correct? That means he can only catch them if they dont move more than his normal move distance. Not sure...

Festus
15-04-2005, 15:01
Hi

Frenzy or not doesn't make a difference in that, as it does not prevent them from redirecting.

And it does not count as a failed charge.

A failed charge occurrs when the charger is *out of reach* of his target (by guessing the distance wrongly or by having the charged flee too far).
If he is able to catch the fleeing target OR redirect into another target, the charge is not failed.

Greetings
Festus

warlord hack'a
15-04-2005, 17:05
and then he is not allowed to make an overrun move right? The maximum distance a unit of knight could cover in one round is charge 14" into an enemy, kill it in one turn and then make a 3d6 overrun move. Now if the enemy flees and they get destroyed then the knights have moved 14" also, I think it would not be strange for them to be allowed to move another 3d6" as an overrun move.

Note that if the unit is fleeing already and the knights are pursuing that then they can not overrun, hence my confusion..

Festus
15-04-2005, 17:24
Hi

If they catch the fleeing unit, they can indeed NOT overrun, as you have to win the *first round of combat* by breaking or annihilating your enemy to be able to overrun.
As you never have a round of combat, you simply have no chance to overrun.

Greetings
Festus

warlord hack'a
15-04-2005, 17:37
okay that was also my idea. But then you get the following tactic:

get a really cheap unit, like 20 gobbo's without anything or 5 wolfriders.

Place then in front of the enemy unit, as close as possible

The enemy charges (especially frenzied troops that have to charge)

You flee as a charge reaction

the enemy knights move 14" forward and destroy your cheap unit

Now you can countercharge!!

It will cost you a unit but if you stand and hold your ground then the enemy will beat you, you will run and he will pursue, with a good chance that he stays too far from your units to countercharge. So that is why I thought it might be that you are allowed to make an overrun move but then again, that would be silly.

I am ranting, sorry

Major Defense
15-04-2005, 20:18
Hi

If they catch the fleeing unit, they can indeed NOT overrun, as you have to win the *first round of combat* by breaking or annihilating your enemy to be able to overrun.
As you never have a round of combat, you simply have no chance to overrun.

Greetings
Festus

I would only clarify that the charging unit does not stop at the point on the table where it hits the fleeing unit (which, at this point, has already been moved 2 or 3D6") but moves up to the full charge distance, stopping 1" away from other enemy units.

I believe that this is the nuance that skavenguy13 was looking for. At the cost of a lesser unit you can trick an enemy unit (or oblige a frenzied unit) into making what ammounts to a march move that happens to include the destruction of your lesser unit. Of course if your lesser unit flees out of reach then that frenzied unit can select another target to charge!

skavenguy13
15-04-2005, 20:58
I would only clarify that the charging unit does not stop at the point on the table where it hits the fleeing unit (which, at this point, has already been moved 2 or 3D6") but moves up to the full charge distance, stopping 1" away from other enemy units.

I believe that this is the nuance that skavenguy13 was looking for. At the cost of a lesser unit you can trick an enemy unit (or oblige a frenzied unit) into making what ammounts to a march move that happens to include the destruction of your lesser unit. Of course if your lesser unit flees out of reach then that frenzied unit can select another target to charge!

Thanx, so according to you, my plan works. BTW I know you DON'T make overrun moves when you destroy a fleeing unit.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v179/McDark/evilgrin.gif
Now those khornate knights won't be able to do ANYTHING to my skaven, except for 5 little night runnershttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v179/McDark/evilgrin.gif

Festus
15-04-2005, 22:20
Well, I am afraid, they can:

Any Khorme Player worth his salt will position his Knights/Warriors in such a way that he will never be forced to make a charge he doesn't want to make.

He will remember that one can block and break LoS with units such as Hounds, Marauders, Spawn, etc.

Never rely on drawing frenzied units away with an experienced general as your oponent, it just won't work.

You have to offer more than 5 NRunners to make him take his chances.

Greetings
Festus

skavenguy13
15-04-2005, 23:49
the only khorne player around plays with 2 units of knights (1 chosen)
2 units of warriors (1 chosen)
A super-uber lord in the chosen knigths

He adds Khorne minotaurs or a shaggoth and Khorne heroes if he has points left. I don't see anything in that list to counter my stupid trick :D

warlord hack'a
18-04-2005, 19:17
ehhhmm, page 76 of the rulebook: pursuit into a fresh enemy..??

When you let you skaven run and the khorne knights pursue then you will move 2d6" and they will move 14", if this 14" brings them into contact with another skaven unit then the knights count as having charged. I think there is no difference between chasing and catching a unit that has fled as a charge reaction and chasing and catching a unit that has fled because it lost combat, in both cases you can run into another enemy unit..

Major Defense
18-04-2005, 19:58
ehhhmm, page 76 of the rulebook: pursuit into a fresh enemy..??

When you let you skaven run and the khorne knights pursue then you will move 2d6" and they will move 14", if this 14" brings them into contact with another skaven unit then the knights count as having charged. I think there is no difference between chasing and catching a unit that has fled as a charge reaction and chasing and catching a unit that has fled because it lost combat, in both cases you can run into another enemy unit..

I don't have my copy of the BRB right here with me but you should be careful about which section you are reading that from. Overrun, for example is NOT in the section on charges because they don't want it confused with charges. I will try to explain again and please feel free to include quotes if you don't agree with the following...

If the unit fleeing 2D6" does not move far enough to expose the unit(s) behind it then the charging enemy will move up to their full charge distance, destroying the fleeing unit if they touch them and stopping 1" away from other units. If the unit fleeing 2D6" does happen to move far enough to expose the unit(s) behind it (essentially out of reach) then the charging enemy may re-declare their charge but do not "pursue into fresh enemy" in the way that a unit does when pursuing an enemy who breaks from close combat. They put that rule after "loser takes a break test" because it has nothing to do with the charge/move phases.

Festus
18-04-2005, 20:55
Hi

ehhhmm, page 76 of the rulebook: pursuit into a fresh enemy..??

When you let you skaven run and the khorne knights pursue then you will move 2d6" and they will move 14", if this 14" brings them into contact with another skaven unit then the knights count as having charged. I think there is no difference between chasing and catching a unit that has fled as a charge reaction and chasing and catching a unit that has fled because it lost combat, in both cases you can run into another enemy unit..

No, there is quite a difference:

You are only allowed into contact with a fresh enemy as a result of a pursuit, NOT as a result of running a fleeing unit down that fled from your charge.

Those are two distinct issues, quite seperate from each other.

Greetings
Festus

warlord hack'a
18-04-2005, 22:21
okay, can be, it just says in my book on page 53: Chargers move their full charge move, past the point where the enemy was caught if necessary. The fleeing troops... recovery. See the rules for fleeing troops in the Close Combat section for more details. So then I went to the close combat section and in the section where they descibe the breaking and fleeing and ended up in pursuit into a fresh enemy. SO that is how I bridged the gap bewteen the part of charging and the close comabt part. But if you say that they stop 1" from an enemy unit then you are probably right, I just connected these things wrong (why they send you from charge reactions to close comabt then is a bit strange..).