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Lord_Squinty
28-09-2007, 23:09
Hi all,

Yes the Dark Angles was intentional - almost everyone seems to spell it that way on tinternet :)

I'm not fully versed in the DA background - having read most of what I know in the rogue trader era.

I have also read Angels of Darkness(?) and almost finished Descent of Angels.

It is about Descent of Angels I have questions -

SO LOOK AWAY IF YOU DONT WANT TO KNOW!





Ok,
Back in the day - Deathwing were taken from Native american-type tribes.
No mention of background in AoD, but - in DoA the Dark Angels seem to be more Bretonian in background.
Have GW changed the DA background when I wasn't looking, or are Deathwing from tribes and the rest from Bretonian style?

Thanks in advance for clearing this up -
Squinty.

cpl_hicks
28-09-2007, 23:31
As far as i am aware the Deathwing native americans are not from caliban, they are from some other planet.

DantesInferno
29-09-2007, 00:24
Since their homeworld of Caliban was destroyed, the Dark Angels roam the galaxy in a fortress monastery in space - the Rock. They recruit from worlds they pass by, staying probably for up to a few hundred years, and then move on to a new world.

So the Terminators in Deathwing have Native American names because they were recruited on a world of that culture. Descent of Angels, if I'm not mistaken, is set at least partially on Caliban. Dark Angels during the Great Crusade are going to have names from Terra or Caliban.

There's also the added complication of whether Dark Angels receive a new name on induction into the Chapter. It seems likely to me, but becomes a little difficult to explain why the Terminators in Deathwing are using their original names. Anyway...

Feor
29-09-2007, 00:32
There was a whole story about how the Deathwing came to be Native American themed, and also why they were painted white. I never saw the original story but basically a number of Termi squads showed up on one world to do some recruiting and found the planet swarming with Genestealer Cultists. They turned their might to eradicating the Stealers, and succeeded at the cost of nearly being wiped out themselves. (like 3 survived or something) In honor of the fallen marines they rebuilt 1st company exclusively from that planet (though I don't believe they've remained exclusive) and painted their armour white, the traditional color of mourning on that world.

Also, AFAIK, The Rock is stationary, staying where Caliban used to be, not moving from world to world.

DantesInferno
29-09-2007, 00:41
Also, AFAIK, The Rock is stationary, staying where Caliban used to be, not moving from world to world.


Following the destruction of their home world, Caliban, the Dark Angels made the Rock their new home, drilling out a huge network of halls in the bedrock beneath the remains of their ruined fortress monastery. In time, huge engines were added allowing the Rock to travel through the warp as the chapter continued on its secret mission across the galaxy.

From <here> (http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/darkangels-diorama/1/), though I'm sure it's in all the Dark Angel Codices too.

Nazguire
29-09-2007, 01:40
There's also the added complication of whether Dark Angels receive a new name on induction into the Chapter. It seems likely to me, but becomes a little difficult to explain why the Terminators in Deathwing are using their original names. Anyway...

They used their original names because they were fighting on their homeworld, and they were quite sure that they would die in the battle to come. So they wanted to die with their original names, e.g. Weasel Fierce, Two-Heads-Talking etc

Wintermute
29-09-2007, 06:38
I think the move away from the Native American background was deliberate. The most recently released DA do not have as much 'Native American' iconography as the models released during 2nd Ed did.

This is not the first time (and will not be the last) that GW has altered the background and appearance of an army.

LexxBomb
29-09-2007, 12:33
if BL had done their research and used existing fluff then the Deathwing should have been called the order. (well thats how i interpret)

still waiting for my copy of AOD but i hope it has the Ironwing

Wintermute
29-09-2007, 15:01
if BL had done their research and used existing fluff then the Deathwing should have been called the order. (well thats how i interpret)

still waiting for my copy of AOD but i hope it has the Ironwing

IIRC The Order didn't appear until the current (new) 4th Ed DA Codex. The Deathwing, as we now know them, first appeared in the expansion to Space Hulk.

trigger
29-09-2007, 15:42
due to the destruction of caliban the da recruit from different planets hense the indian thing
the deathwing used to be black same as ravenwing then somany of the deathwing died saving a planet from a genesteale cult that they changed the colour to white or bone as a way of remembering a bit like the sisters order of our marted lady changing the colour of there robes from black to red

Alessander
29-09-2007, 21:53
The native american aspect came from the original Space Hulk expansion Deathwing from 1989, before the concept of Lion landing on Caliban was even written. The backstory never once mentioned the Primarch, and referred to the Emperor and a giant bird of prey he rode named Deathwing.

The background was phased out with the whole Lion El'Johnson primarcha dn the Fallen thing was written. GW kept a few references to the story in the newer codexes, and had a few feathers on DW Terminators, but even that's being phased out.

GW frequently changes their background, they have been for a long time now. Get used to it.

MadDoc
29-09-2007, 23:40
IIRC The Order didn't appear until the current (new) 4th Ed DA Codex.

Actually the Order is also mentioned in the Dark Angels background section of Codex: Angels of Death (from 2nd Ed.). So its technically been the name of the Knightly order which Jonson was found by, and later became Grand Master of, since he was introduced as the Dark Angels Primarch.

Vaulkhar
30-09-2007, 01:50
And it was also the Order that went on to make up a sizeable chunk of the Legion (a lot of the Order were given augmetic surgery to bring them up to almost-Astartes standard even though they were too old for the normal geneseeding process).

The native Indian thing probably won't be retconned out of the DA background - there's a note in the current codex that the 'Tale of Two Heads Talking' is told to every Scout when he becomes a full Marine - but the current Codex hasn't felt the need to make a big song and dance of it, just like the BA codex doesn't mention vampires and the Space Puppy codex probably won't mention the three day pub crawl that got Ragnar promoted to Wolf Lord.

Argastes
30-09-2007, 02:08
If I remember correctly, the details behind the change of Deathwing armor to bone-white are as follows:

The DA used to draw a number of recruits from a primitive planet called Plains World, the inhabitants of which were strongly reminiscent of American Indians, including names like Weasel-Fierce, Two Heads Talking, and so forth (although they took new names upon induction into the chapter). At some point, Plains World suffered a genestealer infestation and a group of Deathwing terminators were dispatched to purge it. When they got there, they realized they had no chance of survival (maybe the infestation was larger than they had thought? I don't quite recall...), and so, facing inevitable death, they sort of reverted to some of the customs that the natives of Plains World practiced in the same situation. They rubbed their armor with ashes from a ritual fire (I guess the Plains World natives would coat their bodies with similar ash when going to a battle they knew they couldn't survive) and reverted to their original names. They were all wiped out, but Two Heads Talking (the librarian) killed the Patriarch with a final psychic attack as he died. When the rest of the Chapter found out about this, it was declared that the Deathwing's armor would be repainted bone-white, to echo the ash-coated armor of the ones who died on Plains World. Apparently after this incident the DA also diversified their recruiting and stopped drawing so heavily from Plains World, because the infestation made them realize the danger of drawing recruits from a single world--specifically, that they might suffer serious manpower problems if something unfortunate happened to that world. So that's how the move away from native American imagery has been explained.

LexxBomb
30-09-2007, 09:51
IIRC The Order didn't appear until the current (new) 4th Ed DA Codex. The Deathwing, as we now know them, first appeared in the expansion to Space Hulk.

we have known of the "Order" since we have known of the fall. and this was back in 2nd ed

anyway worst comes to worst the Order would then have been the warrior lodge of the DA's

Tehkonrad
30-09-2007, 09:54
wintermute whats your avatar a pic of?

I actually like the changes to their background
also isn't it true that the dark angels are actually the bad guys while the fallen are the good guys?

MadDoc
30-09-2007, 10:10
wintermute whats your avatar a pic of?

I actually like the changes to their background
also isn't it true that the dark angels are actually the bad guys while the fallen are the good guys?

If you buy into Astelan's line of bull, then yes but he damned himself in his telling of events as much as he supported his claims of innocence and only manages to prove himself a Traitor (albeit a smooth talking one). But most people who back the Fallen as the Loyalists idea choose to ignore those parts of his story when they offer up proof of his 'righteuosness'. They also try to claim that he couldn't possibly have any motive to lie and so his claims must be true. :rolleyes:

Sorry but that sort of gullability just galls me.

DantesInferno
30-09-2007, 10:27
Sorry but that sort of gullability just galls me.

I would have thought it was equally as gullible to buy the Codex version hook-line-and-sinker. If one side's being called "the Fallen", surely some questions have to be asked. It's tantamount to a line in the Codex saying "We're the good guys, they're the bad guys".

LexxBomb
30-09-2007, 10:44
my view is that they are both good sided space marines. the only true fallen are those that luthor trained

Chilltouch
30-09-2007, 10:52
It's a picture of a miniature of a Judge Dredd villian that looks incredibly akin to a necron. It's also gigantic, at least 100+mm. Could be used as a proto-Necron Giant if you wanted to.

MadDoc
30-09-2007, 11:03
I would have thought it was equally as gullible to buy the Codex version hook-line-and-sinker.

Nice try, but his own actions and words are what condemn Astelan. (The Dark Angels are no Angels (if you'll excuse the pun) but thats neither here nor there.)

LexxBomb
30-09-2007, 11:15
so by your logic the Black Templars are fallen and be destroyed given they have taken ip upon themselves to continue to Great Crusade. just as Astelain did

Wintermute
30-09-2007, 11:16
It's a picture of a miniature of a Judge Dredd villian that looks incredibly akin to a necron. It's also gigantic, at least 100+mm. Could be used as a proto-Necron Giant if you wanted to.

Its a model of the ABC War Robot from the Judge Dredd movie. The robot is based on another 2000AD hero, Hammerstein from the ABC Warriors.

Its also a lot bigger than 100mm, its 265mm high :eek:

Here is a link (http://warseer.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=997) to a pic of the model in the WarSeer Gallery.

DantesInferno
30-09-2007, 11:19
Nice try, but his own actions and words are what condemn Astelan. (The Dark Angels are no Angels (if you'll excuse the pun) but thats neither here nor there.)

I wasn't saying anything about the plausibility of Astelan's claims, I was just offering a word of warning that all sources on the matter should be treated with a dash of scepticism.


It's a picture of a miniature of a Judge Dredd villian that looks incredibly akin to a necron. It's also gigantic, at least 100+mm. Could be used as a proto-Necron Giant if you wanted to.


Its a model of the ABC War Robot from the Judge Dredd movie. The robot is based on another 2000AD hero, Hammerstein from the ABC Warriors.

Its also a lot bigger than 100mm, its 265mm high :eek:

Here is a link (http://warseer.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=997) to a pic of the model in the WarSeer Gallery.

I'm sorry, are you guys in the wrong thread? :confused:

EDIT: Sorry, missed the earlier question.

Chilltouch
30-09-2007, 11:20
Forget proto-Necron giants, that's a Necron Titan! Jesus!

Anyway, to be remotely on topic - The Dark Angles have become more obtuse over tiime, a few degrees every codex.

EDIT: Dante, we were answering an earlier question.

MadDoc
30-09-2007, 11:31
so by your logic the Black Templars are fallen and be destroyed given they have taken ip upon themselves to continue to Great Crusade. just as Astelain did

By taking over an Imperial world and instating himself as it's ruler? Yeah, really the same thing there...

Kegluneq
30-09-2007, 13:17
But most people who back the Fallen as the Loyalists idea choose to ignore those parts of his story when they offer up proof of his 'righteuosness'. They also try to claim that he couldn't possibly have any motive to lie and so his claims must be true. :rolleyes:

Given that you haven't actually read the latest extremely significant piece of DA fluff (through no fault of your own) isn't that a slightly presumptuous statement?

Chaplian Malaki
30-09-2007, 18:08
I think it all depends on perspective. In my opinion, the DA on both sides represent the human side of the astartes. There are good and bad in everyone and that can be a problem when you don't know the person your fighting. Question everything. Trust nothing.

iseeleadpeople
30-09-2007, 18:39
wintermutes pic is indeed a jd villian from the jd movie, the villian was based on hammerstian bisley eara abc warriors

oops sorry guys already answerd , goes to back of class

ryng_sting
30-09-2007, 20:56
I would have thought it was equally as gullible to buy the Codex version hook-line-and-sinker. If one side's being called "the Fallen", surely some questions have to be asked. It's tantamount to a line in the Codex saying "We're the good guys, they're the bad guys".

Quite. The point of Angels of Darkness was, 'I met my enemy, and he was half right'. Astelan isn't some Chaos lackey, but a frustrated loyalist from the Imperium as it was, trapped in the Imperium as it's become. That he fell prey to megalomania goes without saying, but then again, many said that about Macharius. Either way, the tale about the Lion and Luther he offers is far better - and more convincing - than that wishy-washy morality tale the DAs have reduced the Fall of Caliban to.

MadDoc
30-09-2007, 21:56
Given that you haven't actually read the latest extremely significant piece of DA fluff (through no fault of your own) isn't that a slightly presumptuous statement?

No more so than all the Pro-Fallen folks (some of whom also won't have read DoA) insisting on ignoring those parts of his story/character. Quite apart from which trying to refute a comment made specifically addressing the content of AoD by pointing out that I am as yet unable (geographically) to get my hands on DoA (even with some people posting untagged Spoilers :mad:) doesn't actually work.

MadDoc
01-10-2007, 07:09
Astelan isn't some Chaos lackey, but a frustrated loyalist from the Imperium as it was, trapped in the Imperium as it's become.

And that accounts for him (as he claims) being the one to have actually been responsible for Luthor and the Fallen going rogue (by manipulating Luthor (who he calls weak)) how exactly?


Either way, the tale about the Lion and Luther he offers is far better - and more convincing - than that wishy-washy morality tale the DAs have reduced the Fall of Caliban to.

Uh huh, they weren't Chaos worshippers, and Astelan wasn't a petty, small minded man who through resentment at the supposed slight of being left to Garrison Caliban (damn important job what with it being a Space Marine Homeworld) decided he'd (as he claims) manipulate Luthor into betraying his oaths. And Luthor just happened to have been working out which was why he was able to go toe-to-toe with a Primarch without getting pasted (because Chaos had nothing to do with it). :rolleyes:

TheDarkDaff
01-10-2007, 09:03
I love these DA threads.

First off i will recount what i remember of the story of two heads talking. A Squad of Terminators (yes thats right only 10) lead by their old shaman (now a Libraian) lands on Plains world to do there generational recruiting thing. They land and can't find anybody so they have a look around and find some genestealer skulls and find the populace have been herded into a giant city. They send a message for help to the rock then proceed to get ready to take on the Genestealer infestation. Following a custom of Plains World (their homeworld and where they are) they paint their armour bone white to show they are the ghosts yet to be. They then attack the genestealers and proceed to beat them down. Two Heads Talking destroys the Genestealer Magus and Patriarch but is mortally wounded by the Patriarch. The remaining Deathwing then detroy the remaining Genestealers and release the people. They then become the new tribal chiefs of Plains World.

The little background is that up until this point the Dark Angels used Plains World exclusively for their recruiting but after this incident they started recruiting from more worlds so they would always have recruits.

Most people want to argue about the number of termies there were but the story very specifically mentions it is only a single squad and the Libraian.

Now not having read DoA I won’t comment on it but the Order was one of the Knightly groups that lived on Caliban. Most of what you need to know about them is in the codex (if you read the fluff section that is). If you can get your hands on a copy of Codex: Angels of Death that has a lot more info for you.

HiveFleetEzekial
01-10-2007, 10:51
Wow, you should really go back and re-read the story then. Your memory is faulty. It was, at the least, half od the DW company that went there at the time. The only ones left were roughly a squad's worth. 6 sergeants.

And it's those 6 sergeants, plus 1, and their librarian (Two-Heads Talking) that you only ever actually hear throughout the story. They've left their squads behind through most of their surching. And pretty much all of their squads died through the final fight after THT kicked it.


The populace, wasn't 'herded', they were already in the city, which was founed over a crashed Hulk.

They never tried to send a signal for 'help'. What with the whole infestation on those guys' own homeworld being a personal affront to them, not to mention being terminators, they wanted to do the job themselves.

Didn't know ghosts were bone white. They 'painted'(read smeared/covered) their armor with the ashes left by the ceremonial fire they had... which makes them ash white, not bone. (ashes *are* grey/white, not brown!)

Alessander
03-10-2007, 22:54
The painting suites white was a native people death ritual. They concidered their assault on a (grounded) space hulk suicide, so they painted themselves in the funeral colors.

(OT - Ironically GW used to have a license for Judge Dredd material back in the 80's. Don't think they did any models, but they did a lot of RPG and board game stuff)

Wintermute
04-10-2007, 06:51
(OT - Ironically GW used to have a license for Judge Dredd material back in the 80's. Don't think they did any models, but they did a lot of RPG and board game stuff)

Yes they did do models.

Inquisitor Feldenhaus
05-10-2007, 01:59
Also, AFAIK, The Rock is stationary, staying where Caliban used to be, not moving from world to world.


Acutally, I have my 'dex with me, 4th edition, just so you know. It clearly states that the Rock moves from planet to planet, recruiting for the DA.

Wintermute
05-10-2007, 06:38
Acutally, I have my 'dex with me, 4th edition, just so you know. It clearly states that the Rock moves from planet to planet, recruiting for the DA.

This also stated in the 2nd and 3rd Ed Codicies as well :)

blankhalo
05-10-2007, 13:54
Interesting thought:

P11 of the 4th Edition Codex states that much of the Dark Angels' teachings are couched in allegory and myth.

Later on the 'dex it mentions that the 'Tale of Two Heads Talking' is told to DAs on promotion from Scout to full marine status.

If we consider the tale in abstract; loyal marines arrive at the home planet after a time away and find its inhabitants under an evil influence. They then proceed to cleanse the evil with righteous fire.

Hmm... sounds rather like when Lion El'Jonson returns to Caliban

MadDoc
05-10-2007, 21:18
<KER-SNIP> Hmm... sounds rather like when Lion El'Jonson returns to Caliban

Hence the the use of the term allegory... ;)

blankhalo
06-10-2007, 13:30
Yes but is it therfore Myth?

VetSgtNamaan
06-10-2007, 21:41
And actually in the story explaining how they got the bone white armour they mention that the Deathwing is the name of the Emperors thunderbird who comes to take thier souls to the emperor when they die. They share many traits with first nations people though really any nomadic culture with a strong tradition in oral story telling would fit.


After a re-read of the story I remember it was 30 deathwing who cleanses the city of the gene stealers and the 6 surviving members each took a sixth of the surviving population to re-teach them the ways of the warrior.

MadDoc
08-10-2007, 02:37
Yes but is it therfore Myth?

:eyebrows: The two terms as given are not actually mutually exclusive or inclusive, so you'd be reaching to draw that conclusion.

Besides, while many myths are examples of allegory, not all allegories are myths. :angel: