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View Full Version : Why no Siegfrieds and Ragnaroks?



Frep
29-09-2007, 01:09
Why is it that Forgeworld have not produced either Ragnarok or Siegfried tanks to supplement their DKoK model range?
I mean those tanks were created by the Death Korps for fighting on Krieg, but instead of making them FW has produced 2 Super-Heavies that no one has ever heard of until theu produced them, with variants announced every month it seems.(Not that I'm complaining because they're very nice models).
I know I could ask FW, but I want other Warseers opinions on the matter.

Green Shoes
29-09-2007, 01:28
I think that some more MBT and smaller AFVs would be really cool. They wouldn't even need to make new rules for them, just say things like, "Use Leman Russ Conqueror rules for the Siegfried", or, "Use Leman Russ Vanquisher rules for the Ragnarok".

Puffin Magician
29-09-2007, 01:35
It could be that, as consumers, we like shiny things and bang-for-our-buck. I wouldn't be terribly pleased if I paid FW prices for something that couldn't hack it vs. a regular ol' Leman Russ. IIRC the Rag' is slower, has a worse main gun, and can only upgrade to Heavy Stubbers.

However I think the likely reason is that both chassis are very different from each other and any other design, which means there would be a lot of preliminary work involved. Yes, they did manage to whip the Gorgon, Marcharius, and Malcador out of thin air... but those are large models, which cost more, which generate greater revenue. They're also more expensive in the game, so are more cost-effective for us buyers. I really don't think they'd make back what they would invest in either model simply because of low sales. 50 GBP + S&H for something performing the task of a Sentinel?

biggreengribbly
29-09-2007, 02:14
It could be that, as consumers, we like shiny things and bang-for-our-buck. I wouldn't be terribly pleased if I paid FW prices for something that couldn't hack it vs. a regular ol' Leman Russ. IIRC the Rag' is slower, has a worse main gun, and can only upgrade to Heavy Stubbers.

However I think the likely reason is that both chassis are very different from each other and any other design, which means there would be a lot of preliminary work involved. Yes, they did manage to whip the Gorgon, Marcharius, and Malcador out of thin air... but those are large models, which cost more, which generate greater revenue. They're also more expensive in the game, so are more cost-effective for us buyers. I really don't think they'd make back what they would invest in either model simply because of low sales. 50 GBP + S&H for something performing the task of a Sentinel?

Wait... you're talking about not making back their money on low points cost models... in a thread relating to the... Death Korps... Imperial Guard Infantry units, that are about the best-selling models forgeworld have Ever made? What have you been drinking? £50 for a sentinel is crazy, but £32 is just peachy for a 60 point infantry squad? Heavy weapons teams, £14 a pop for barely an average of 40 points, never going to sell right? How's about a Centaur. £32 for the Smallest tank in the game. No way something with that little 'bang for buck' is going to work right? Right?!

Check your facts before you go jumping to conclusions. Pretty much the Entire Death Korps range has been made from scratch, or at most some loose concepts. To say that not wanting to do 'preliminary work' on something is a valid excuse for not making it unless it's Big is ridiculous.

Dio´Ra
29-09-2007, 02:44
another reason for why FW wont make the siegfried and the ragnarok is that they are outdated, these tanks where used in their civil war which is quite a long time ago (wont go in on excact facts as i dont have my books at hand), thus they now use the standard stuff what the departmento munitorum equips these days every IG out there (maybe not every IG?).

anyways that is the fluff excuse which FW "can" use :p
but they did the malcador which is also a pretty old tank, alltough we will read the story about it in IA6.....

Puffin Magician
29-09-2007, 03:03
Check your facts before you go jumping to conclusions.Pardon me for not being a business analyst, but I was merely suggesting that FW wouldn't make as much money off Ragnaroks as, say, Vanquisher turrets. Yeah the DK are pricy but you have to buy tons of them to have an army. How many Siegfrieds would even the most dedicated of players buy? 3? 5? Probably the same reason why the Sentinel Powerlifter wouldn't sell at all if it didn't have the plastic kit as a base.

And not to say they wouldn't sell well, but that's my opinion on why they haven't been made yet. Who knows, they might be in the pipeline right now?

Edit: And yeah, I forgot about the Centaur. Cut me some slack, I haven't played 40k since the turn of the millennium. :p

Frep
29-09-2007, 03:18
I don't know about people not buying Ragnaroks or Siegfrieds. Guard players have been asking for a long time about a light tank, which the siegfried would definetly be. (It would fit right in fast attack sort of a heavier armoured buyt slower sentinal).

As for the ragnarok maybe it isn't as good as the Russ but then again the thunderer is far worse than a demolisher and they sell relativly well just because they're different and look cool.

P.S. The siegfried is based on the land crawler right, isn't that what a centaur is basically, so and armoured top with a small turrent, chimera maybe, would fit the bill

biggreengribbly
29-09-2007, 03:25
Ummm...

So in your opinion a solid light tank would sell *worse* than a specialised anti-tank turret?

*shakes head and walks away*

Easy E
29-09-2007, 11:18
None of the Sculptors wanted to make them.

I have been working on a template along the lines of Dave Taylor's Ragnarok conversion.

This would be my load out for the Ragnarok:
Front 13
Side 11
Rear 10
BS 3
Structure Points 1
Type: Tank, Lumbering
Weapon: Missile Launcher in Turret, 2 Sponson Heavy Stubbers.
May take normal IG Upgrades.

The Seigfreid
Front 11
Side 11
Rear 10
BS 3
Structure Points 1
Type: Tank, Fast
Access Points: 1 rear ramp
Fire Points: None
Weapon: Turret mounted Heavy stubber. Maybe upgraded to a Multi-laser or Heavy Bolter.
Transport: 11 Models

Edit: I'm not as familiar with the Seigfreid stats in Epic so...

Also, I would love to see them build a Land Crawler or other civilian vehicles.

Chaos and Evil
29-09-2007, 12:21
This would be my load out for the Ragnarok:
Front 13
Side 11
Rear 10
BS 3
Structure Points 1
Type: Tank, Lumbering
Weapon: Missile Launcher in Turret, 2 Sponson Heavy Stubbers.
May take normal IG Upgrades.

Ragnaroks are armed with a shorter-ranged battlecannon, not a missile launcher.

They're also not War Engines! (They're basically a large gun turret put on top of a reinforced Chimera hull!)

They come with the rough terrain modification as standard (Ragnaroks may re-roll dangerous terrain tests in Epic, while most other tanks can't).


The Seigfreid
Front 11
Side 11
Rear 10
BS 3
Structure Points 1
Type: Tank, Fast
Access Points: 1 rear ramp
Fire Points: None
Weapon: Turret mounted Heavy stubber. Maybe upgraded to a Multi-laser or Heavy Bolter.
Transport: 11 Models
Why are you giving structure points to a light tank? It's also not a War Engine.

Siegfreid tanks don't have any transport capacity.

The main gun on a Seigfried light tank is a multi-laser.

They have Chimera-class armour.


There is also a transport variant called the Bruenhilde, which is, frankly, identical to a DKoK Centaur (It has a heavy stubber and tows guns around the battlefield).

Puffin Magician
29-09-2007, 14:13
So in your opinion a solid light tank would sell *worse* than a specialised anti-tank turret?Well, FW has made three separate types of Vanquisher turret, and... how many Siegfriends? Like I said, it's just an opinion, and the Siggy might be in the works as we speak. You'd think that if they wanted to do a Siegfried, they would've done it instead of the Centaur already, no?

I also don't consider a tank performing the identical duty of a Sentinel to be exactly "solid".

Why are you giving structure points to a light tank?A vehicle with one Structure Point is the same as a "Normal" vehicle, like a Wartrukk or Falcon.

Easy E
29-09-2007, 16:15
1 structure point doesn't make you a War Engine. A leman Russ has 1 structure point. The automated VDR system I used you could not choose anything less. It is a default.

As for the Battle Cannon, I know. The missile launcher seemed like a good way to represent a less powerful battle cannon. However, it sounds like the range is an issue. I see in the VDR that they have rules for a short barrelled battle cannon. Sadly, I don't know what the effect of this is as I don't own the Chapter Approved with VDR in it. Hence, I tried to find an alternative.

Thanks for the info on the rough terrain mod built in. I did not know that.

About the Seigfreid. My mistake again. I could have sworn it was a downgraded chimera. Bruenhilde huh? I thought that was the Land crawler and it was more like a weaponless open topped chimera. Therefore, bigger than a Centaur.

Thanks for the education on DKoK tanks.

Colonel Stagler
29-09-2007, 16:42
A Landcrawler and Brunhilde are basically the same as a centaur, but i would love to see a Ragnarok or a Siegfreid, just for novelty, id buy them :)

lijah_cuu
29-09-2007, 17:16
Im sorry biggreengribbly, but I found your response to this query unbelievably rude.....

biggreengribbly
30-09-2007, 21:06
Well, FW has made three separate types of Vanquisher turret, and... how many Siegfriends? Like I said, it's just an opinion, and the Siggy might be in the works as we speak. You'd think that if they wanted to do a Siegfried, they would've done it instead of the Centaur already, no?

Aaah. Tasty high-colesterol opinion. How much trouble you do cause.

So... now you're saying kits that were in production long before the Siegfried was ever conceptualised means that they'd sell better if they bothered to make it? :eyebrows:

and no, the Siegfried wouldn't have been made instead of the centaur. It's an outdated vehichle in use by regiments without the industrial capacity to produce more complex vehicles in sufficient numbers and/or operating in theaters unsuited for Sentinels. The Death Korps themselves, at least the ones serving on Vrak's or whatever IA 5 is based on, are equipped with Centaur's, Not siegfried's.


I also don't consider a tank performing the identical duty of a Sentinel to be exactly "solid".

I'd have to agree with you. A tank that performed the identical duty of a Sentinel would be a little superfluous.

Kinda a pity then that it's physically Impossible for a tank to do the things a Sentinel can then isn't it ;)

Can a light tank plunge happily into difficult terrain without worry of immobilisation? Or fight/lock units in close combat? Deep Strike under the 'Drop Troops' doctrine? ...I think not.

Can a sentinel cover a minimum of 12" a turn, with the potential for more if made 'agile' or even 'fast'? Have a decent chance of being able to position itself to take potshots at others side or rear armour? Keep up with Chimera's and support mechanised infantry? Not according to my 40k rulebook ;)

And as flattering as it is to have someone apparently make an account purely to tell me I'm being rude. Don't feel you have to apologise, you're not the one being 'unbelieveably rude' :D

Puffin Magician
30-09-2007, 21:31
Are you going to reply to the thread, or simply quabble over semantics with me?

You asked if I thought a specialized AT turret would sell better than the Siggy. FW has made 3 different Vanquisher turrets, and they had the option of the Siegfried and have not made one [yet?]. So, apparantly, they do sell better. And the Siegfried was in the Epic: Armageddon list before the Centaur was released, so it's not as if FW didn't have the option of making one. I reiterate, they could be making one right now.

There's nothing to say that they wouldn't have made the Sig rather than the Centaur, since the Marcharius/Malcador are outdated/bettered by the Baneblade, and FW likes making fluffy units. Why haven't they made a Siegfried model? You'll have to ask the people that are actually involved in those decisions.

I'm also aware that a tank does not behave identically to a walker, but do the IG really need two light vehicles toting around a single Multilaser? I don't think so, but that's not to say that I think FW shouldn't make one. If you really want a Siegfried, use the VDR; I'm not going to stop you.

t-tauri
30-09-2007, 21:58
Let's keep it civil, please gentlemen. If we can't follow the posting guidelines (http://warseer.com/forums/faq.php?faq=rules#faq_posting_guidelines) in a polite fashion then the moderators will have to take action.

t-tauri

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