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jma037
02-09-2005, 05:10
Is there a warhammer equivalent of the Spartan Hoplites?

I really want to do a themed army list of the "Famous 300". Is there a approved regiment of renown somewhere that represents the hoplites?

If there's not, do you think spearmen with shield and light armour AND have the "hand weapon and shield save bonus" could possibly represent the hoplites?

Maybe fighting from three ranks?

Cheers!

taer
02-09-2005, 05:12
Hoplites. Either spearmen or pikemen. No additional rules needed.

jma037
02-09-2005, 05:32
I thought about it too. Pikemen don't have shields. And I would thought that the formation fighting tactics of the hoplites will give them a better save then your regular empire spearmen.

I suppose I could give the DoW pikemen the "heavy armour" upgrade and put a shield on it instead. Do you think I can do this? But that's still a 5+ save. I was hoping for a 4+ save. I also hear that pikemen are *****.

Here's the problem.

1)Do you think my hope for a 4+ save for hoplites is unrealistic?
2)Can I put a shield on pikemen and call it heavy armour?
3)would a greek theme be better as empire with DoW? or just pure Dow?
4)I want the hoplites to be the hard nutsed "300 spartans". I was thinking making them stuborn on 9 or something. Could it work?
5)what about unbreakable as long as the leader is alive? Could this work?

Cheers all!

Ice-T
02-09-2005, 05:40
Depends on wether you want it to be official, or just for fun with your friends.
If you want it to be official, i'd suggest either the Empire or DoW, or both.
If not, why dont you check out Avians Design a Unit rules?

(link to follow when i have the time)

jma037
02-09-2005, 05:49
I want it to be semi-official. As in, I mostly play with my friends. But I don't want to rule out the option of playing a tornament.

After reading the RoR again, I was think of this.

I can use the rules for Ricco's Republican Guard as Leonidas's 300.

But a 25 model unit comes in at a mighty 360 points.

My friends and a want to recreate the Battle of the Gates of Fire. I was to create a 1000 points list with special rules and fight against a 1500 maybe 2000 points list.

I also wanted to have the options of fighting 1000pts battles att eh GW store without my rules.

Ideas, Suggestions, Comments?

User Name
02-09-2005, 06:39
Chaos warriors would offer the armour save and stat line you like, Im not sure how you would equip them, mabey haliberds.

Adlan
02-09-2005, 07:02
You could Equip them with two handweapons, but model them with pikes.
And say the extra attacks are the men behinds.

Unseeing Eye
02-09-2005, 07:30
High Elves with Spears fight in 3 ranks. Handmaidens and Spear Elves both have this ability and have a 5+ save.

Galonthar
02-09-2005, 07:36
only one prob (model-wise).; they don`t look like hoplites in any way (don`t have that "hoplon"-schield (you know, the big round one), too much armour etc...

only,... hoplites did wield awesomely long pikes,... are 3 ranks fighting enough? (and maybe becming more vunerable at the flanks?)

Antaeus
02-09-2005, 08:59
I suppose you could use one of the metal DoW pikemen regiments...there's a few of them so there should be one that looks the part, and mail order some plastic shields to sling over their backs: no shield in game terms, but they could have them for aesthetic purposes.

Just a thought :)

FRS
02-09-2005, 09:33
only,... hoplites did wield awesomely long pikes,...

Actually no, they were using spears, you will have to wait for the Macedonian to see massive use of pike on the battlefield.

Bubble Ghost
02-09-2005, 11:01
Use the rules for Ricco's Republican Guard. They're pikemen with WS 4 and heavy armour (which you could say was light armour and a shield). Then get some historical models. Or if you want to use GW ones, take the Alcatani Fellowship models and stick shields on them.

If you're planning on making your own army list out of existing units, though, (like having multiple Ricco's Republican Guard units or whatever) it'll be unofficial anyway, so you might as well just adjust rules and profiles however you want.

Griefbringer
02-09-2005, 12:06
For real hoplites, how about checking out Warhammer Ancient Battles?

fracas
02-09-2005, 12:37
rules wise i think HE spearmen, WE eternal guard or Saurus spearmen would work best. All three are tough and disciplined.
you can always use the count as rule.
probably a WE list would work best for you as Alexander also had fast cav and heavy cav to bolster his offensive power, along with some archers.

Hasmed
02-09-2005, 14:22
Saurus warriors with spears and blessed by Quetzl and Tlazcotl is as close as you can get imo.

Scythe
02-09-2005, 17:05
(link to follow when i have the time)

Here it is...;)

Avian's 'Design a Unit' (http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~tarjeia/avian/rules/design.htm)

Commissar von Toussaint
02-09-2005, 17:47
Actually, high elf spearmen in heavy armor with shields have everything you need. They cost 11 points in Ravening Hordes.

Grom
02-09-2005, 22:37
Unless you specifically want to use proper 'Spartan' models, Tom Meier's upcoming Spartan-style High Elves look ideal:

https://www.thunderboltmountain.com/preview.php?osCsid=49bb6ec75c314e14b63dc814b1be5e2 2

(High Elf Spearman rules seem to be the most suitable)

Remember, the Spartans were as renowned for their manouverability as for their prowess in combat! (Elves are M5)

BuckFlashback
02-09-2005, 22:57
I've always thought that the coolest Greek styled army would be converted Tomb Kings. Big blocks of skeletal hoplites with shining bronze shields would look awesome.

Sanjuro
03-09-2005, 00:13
Weren't hoplites initially armed with roughly 2,5 meter long spears? That doesn't exactly translate into pikes. Just regular spearmen sound fine to me. I'd say Empire spearmen with a Griffon Banner (double rank bonus) and an Elector Count with the Rod of Command (auto-pass first break test).

You should also check out Warhammer Ancient Battles for ideas to your house rules.

Grom
03-09-2005, 00:20
Weren't hoplites initially armed with roughly 2,5 meter long spears? That doesn't exactly translate into pikes. Just regular spearmen sound fine to me. I'd say Empire spearmen with a Griffon Banner (double rank bonus) and an Elector Count with the Rod of Command (auto-pass first break test).

You should also check out Warhammer Ancient Battles for ideas to your house rules.

Aye, the longer spears (pikes) only really came into use after the reforms of Iphicrates during the Hellenistic period, by which time Sparta was a spent force.

jma037
03-09-2005, 02:17
I'm starting out small. Just 1000points.
The theme for the army so far is this. This is based on the "300 Spartans" that made their stand on the Gate of Fire. Except this time, they didn't get betrayed and die to the last man. Instead, in true warhammer fashion the 300 faught back the Tomb King Army and get to go home.

I want some super hard spear/pike men in one unit as the "300" and some less hard spear unit as the "Greek Allies".

The idea so far is have the Ricco Republican guards as the 300. Perhapes the fighting in four rank represent the 300 fighting in two rank but have one extra attack. The heavy armour save can be light armour and shield. Recco, can be Leonidas.

Here comes the problem. If I want to use it as a DoW list. I need to buy TWO fighting heros in the form of the DoW Captain and the Paymaster. Kinda gay.

So I thought I use an empire list, with a wizard as the general, spearmen as greek allies. But then I don't get to have DoW light horses.


Ideas, Suggestions, Comments?

Icewalker
03-09-2005, 02:29
Do a DoW list. These guys as you know can be tailored to your fluff needs and wants. The fact that you need a Paymaster + another hero is annoying, but liveable so don't let it get to you. Keep the quick cav and all should be fine.

Sanjuro
03-09-2005, 09:33
I still think you will be surprised by the un-badassedness of pikemen. They might have been the shiznit in 300 B.C., but they are NOT among the most hard-as-nails troops in the Warhammer world, not even the WS4 Ricco ones. I'm not saying pikemen are bad - they are not - but there are several footsoldiers that will give them a sound thrashing.

You cannot rely on kills alone to give you the super-edge in combat that you would expect the famous 300 to have. That's why I would suggest perhaps some other unit with different capabilities that will make them stick around longer (which is mainly what the famous 300 are famous for, right?). For instance, the above mentioned spearmen troop, and I am sure that High Elves have some sort of magic item that will beef up spearmen, perhaps make them stubborn or some such thing? A BSB will also help out there, of course.

I think you'd also need some sort of special scenario where your hoplites cannot be flanked (they are defending a bottleneck in the terrain) and where they are immune to outnumbering (the 'persians' cannot bring their numbers to bear). There could possibly be a call for a maximum rank bonus of +1 for the enemy as well (representing that it is hard to keep an orderly formation in the tight mountain pass). Generally just anything that will help you out a bit while still staying true to what we think happened in that famous battle. Also make sure that the persians are not represented by T4 troops like orcs, lizardmen and chaos. That's a surefire way to get beat up. Undeads are also out of the question, since they do not run, spread fear, etc.

Basically you want to fight against night goblins.

Galonthar
03-09-2005, 10:06
Actually no, they were using spears, you will have to wait for the Macedonian to see massive use of pike on the battlefield.
true, I forgot,... it was indeed the macedonians who had those sarrissa`s (or something like that)