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studderigdave
29-09-2007, 07:52
ive been hearing people say they are making entire chaos armies around the fallen, and i never really got into the fluff about them, but ive come up to a bind in my deathguard army, i have an open elite slot and i want some chosen, but im VERY picky about my deathguard so i was thinking about adding a squad of fallen as the chosen.

how rare, fluffwise, would a squad of 10 fallen be, working together, counting as chosen?

WarEyes
29-09-2007, 08:01
According to what I've read, it seems that the Fallen are drawn together, whether it's subconscious or not. In the DA codex it mentions an action by the Deathwing and the 1st company of the Angels of Absolution, in which they encountered three of the Fallen.

In all that I've read, it never says anything about there being a capture of anymore than three Fallen at any one time. One, maybe two is more the norm. However, most of the fluff does mention that they form groups together, along with some followers, so yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with seeing a squad of Fallen on the table...

But that's probably just because I play DA... :P

Imperialis_Dominatus
29-09-2007, 10:08
The Fallen do gravitate together, and seeing as how the Codex seems to imply that the Fallen, gathered together in a few squads or less, are such a challenge as to demand the entirety of the 1st Company of the Dark Angels, I'd say an Elite slot is a decent representation. Indeed, with the new Codex's lack of Veteran Skills and such (from what I've heard), the question is, are they represented properly? But that is a conversation with but one end: a reference to Movie Marines. So, in short, go for it.

LexxBomb
29-09-2007, 12:22
the most you could field together would be 5. with cypher 10 (maybe 20 if they count as chaos space marines)

studderigdave
29-09-2007, 12:35
well i planned on running a 10 man squad of fallen using the chosen rules.

LexxBomb
29-09-2007, 12:38
its a shame ravenwing and deathwing have to follow the fallen rule wise.

HiveFleetEzekial
29-09-2007, 16:34
What? There's no 'rules' that say they have to 'follow the fallen'.

redbaron998
29-09-2007, 17:05
I had a pretty accurate desription once but lost it.

I believe there was 2 or 3 chapters left on Caliban (we will go with 3 for now) So thats 3000. Now the vast majority would have died during the assault (cause its close to a full legion assaulting them lead by a Primarch) So lets be nice to them and say 2000. Now since they have been scattered through space and time I would guess by now about 2/3 have come and died somewhere or got caputred.

So my guess is there are about 800 or so Fallen left out there (assuming there was 3 chapters on Caliban since im not sure, I know the Traitor guy (can you tell im rusty on my DA fluff) was one and the chapter master from Angels of Darkness makes at least 2

malika
29-09-2007, 17:31
How big was the Legion? If I remember GW has changed the numbers of the legions from being around 10k to around lets say 100k. If that is the case we have to assume that around 30k were left on Caliban, a high number were killed, so lets assume 10k survived. Many of them became Chaos Space Marines, another bunch were captured and a couple of thousand might be Fallen marines. You might also wonder if they recruit new marines to survive. Some elements might have escaped with Apothecaries etc so might have the know how to reproduce Marines.

Rabid Bunny 666
29-09-2007, 17:56
I had a pretty accurate desription once but lost it.

I believe there was 2 or 3 chapters left on Caliban (we will go with 3 for now) So thats 3000. Now the vast majority would have died during the assault (cause its close to a full legion assaulting them lead by a Primarch) So lets be nice to them and say 2000. Now since they have been scattered through space and time I would guess by now about 2/3 have come and died somewhere or got caputred.

So my guess is there are about 800 or so Fallen left out there (assuming there was 3 chapters on Caliban since im not sure, I know the Traitor guy (can you tell im rusty on my DA fluff) was one and the chapter master from Angels of Darkness makes at least 2

Then there is the quetion of the Loyal DA who were fighting against the Fallen, they probably got scattered in a similar fashion.

SonofUltramar
29-09-2007, 18:20
I'd have no problem with anyone saying that a unit of Chosen were in fact Fallen Angels, very cool and helps add some variety, never a bad thing in a Chaos army:)

As for the numbers of Fallen I think redbaron998 has it about spot on. Bearing in mind the number of Fallen that have ever been captured being in the hundreds at best, can't remember which Chaplain but I think Asmodai was one of the best and he had only captured 3 in his time as an Interogator Chaplain? Think the Unforgiven may be at it for some time to come:D

Tanith Ghost
29-09-2007, 18:24
No, Asmodai captured way more than three. Three is how many plead guilty before he had to slice them up with the blades of reason.

Son_Of_A_Horus
29-09-2007, 18:29
Tanith Ghost has that correct. Asmodai was presented with LOTS of Fallen playthings. He did, surprisingly, only manage to pry three confessions of guilt and recantations of the Chaos ways from those he interrogated. Chances are he killed a few without meaning to lol

LexxBomb
30-09-2007, 09:20
What? There's no 'rules' that say they have to 'follow the fallen'.

opps sorry i meant its a shame the deathwing and the ravenwing DONT have to follow the fallen anymore in games.

I also thought that on caliban there was about 5 chapters

WarEyes
30-09-2007, 20:18
I believe the 'record' number for making Fallen repent is 8. So Asmodai has a long career ahead of him...

If anyone know's that particular Chaplain's name, then it would be much appreciated if they could post it up :)

Green-is-best
30-09-2007, 21:08
All will be made clear when Decent of Angels comes out! :D

MadDoc
30-09-2007, 21:12
I believe the 'record' number for making Fallen repent is 8. So Asmodai has a long career ahead of him...

If anyone know's that particular Chaplain's name, then it would be much appreciated if they could post it up :)

I believe that would be Master Moloch.


All will be made clear when Decent of Angels comes out! :D

Or, more likely, more obscured... :angel:

Nothing will change, in that the Pro-Fallen people will read more into whats written than is necessarily there...

elusiveintrovert
30-09-2007, 21:15
I believe the 'record' number for making Fallen repent is 8. So Asmodai has a long career ahead of him...

If anyone know's that particular Chaplain's name, then it would be much appreciated if they could post it up :)

Actually Asmodai has gotten himself the reputation of the most successfuly interogator after Molochia who served much longer than him. About 300 years to get 12 black pearls hanging from his Crozius Arcanum.

Edit: I belive that eight is the number of Fallen that Asmodai has interogated.

Adra
30-09-2007, 21:33
please paint the armour black...thats pre HH DA armour colou...dont be stupid like the codex...sigh

WarEyes
30-09-2007, 21:46
Actually Asmodai has gotten himself the reputation of the most successfuly interogator after Molochia who served much longer than him. About 300 years to get 12 black pearls hanging from his Crozius Arcanum.

Edit: I belive that eight is the number of Fallen that Asmodai has interogated.

I stand corrected :)

As for Descent of Angels, did anyone manage to pick up a copy at GD? I spent too long drooling over the massive Space Wolves diorama and missed out...

Kegluneq
30-09-2007, 22:01
All will be made clear when Decent of Angels comes out! :D
According to the final section of Descent of Angels, 'hundreds upon hundreds' of the best and brightest of the chapter, including the noble main character, are sent back to Caliban. Obviously this means that numbers of Fallen have become inflated somewhere, or there's a significant gap in time in which many more recruits are added to Luther's ranks. Personally, I would doubt that Fallen gather in groups that large, unless in truly special circumstances. Elite would certainly be the best place for them though.

Edit: It's out over a week early in Manchester GW. Worth checking your local store anyway.

Leftenant Gashrog
30-09-2007, 22:05
How big was the Legion? If I remember GW has changed the numbers of the legions from being around 10k to around lets say 100k.

The Horus Heresy artbooks upped the legions to 100k minimum, but the Heresy novels appear to go with them only being in the tens of thousands each.

In Angels of Darkness Astellan claims to have been one of the 26 Dark Angel Chapter Masters, admitedly most of his claims may well have been lies, but that little tidbit wouldnt serve any purpose in being a lie.

Raven1
30-09-2007, 22:45
It would make perfect sense. Before the new codex I used the WD rules for cypher and had a Fallen Angels squad which was a Counts as CSM choosen.