PDA

View Full Version : 2000pts Tzeentch (Mortal / Deamonic)



Hive Fleet Spectra
29-09-2007, 15:24
Hello all. I'm planning on expanding my current Tzeentch army as I have had limited success with my current selection of models.

Although I have had my Tzeentch force for quite some time I am still a novice in terms of playing fantasy. I've written the below list and wish to get some feedback in terms of strengths / weaknesses and where I could improve the list.

One other thing I will mention before going onto the list is that I prefer to use a list from the Hordes of Chaos book only. This is merely a personal choice of mine and would like the list to stay as such. However if you want to try and persuade me then this is fine, as long as you submit pros and cons for using the beast units of your choice as I am, generally, unaware of their abilities.


Lords
Demon Prince of Tzeentch: 550pts
w/ Master of Mortals, Tzeentch's Will and Diabolic Splendor.

Heroes
Sorcerer of Chaos: 170pts
w/ Level 2 and 2 Dispel Scrolls

Core
6 Knights of Tzeentch: 293pts
w/ Full command and War Banner
6 Knights of Tzeentch: 293pts
w/ Full command and War Banner
1 Chariot of Tzeentch: 140pts
6 Warhounds: 36pts
6 Warhounds: 36pts
6 Warhounds: 36pts

Special
12 Horrors: 255pts
w/ 3 Flamers
3 Screamers: 99pts
6 Furies: 90pts

Total Army Cost: 1998pts
Model Count: 57
Power Dice: 11
Dispel Dice: 5

All comments and ideas will be greatly appreciated.
Hive Fleet Spectra.

Neknoh
29-09-2007, 15:55
To be honest, I don't really see the tzeentchy-ness of the army, neither the Sorceror, nor the Daemonprince are kitted out to be the Magic Missile throwers they are supposed to, nor are your Horrors, what you currently have is an army of insanely weak psychology with a very weak support to it, a Spell Familliar and the +1 spell Gift for your characters would help a bit in this, I mean, you do have eleven powerdice, of which five are in the Common pool, and you don't really have the spells to use them on, sure, you have six spells, but you are not going to cast all of those spells, it is often better with having a larger selection with Tzeentch, especially seing as that Sorceror is on foot and thus will be hiding far, far away from the battles, leaving the only spellcaster as your Daemon. Your daemon in turn, really doesn't have a purpose within the army, I am sorry to say, he's quick, yes, but so would a Lord or Exalted on a disc, a Lord on a Disc would be better at fighting, not suffer from instabillity and would count as a large target (with the Eye, this is NOT a bad thing since he can both charge and cast spells over intervening units). A Lord of Chaos would also be able to wield the Staff of Change, I know it is very cookie-cutter, but there is a reason till why it is so commonly used. Your Daemon also is very vulnerable to shooting, 650 points (general) protected by a 5+ Wardsave simply won't cut it, especially since he'll want to be cirkling arround enemy units, exposing himself to various shooty stuff.

Furthermore, you would save a bucketload of points on your general if you used Lord on Disc, Staff, Eye and Hallberd, enough points to swap the Sorceror for an Exalted on disc armed either with the Greatfang and a Shield or with Gaze, Hallberd and Spell Familliar. Either of those builds would be a lot more agressive and work in a role to support the army much easier. It would also have a very nice ring to a general theme of a Lord with his apprentice, rather than a lord and then some old librarian or similar who hides at the back of the army.

Furthermore, the Sorceror you have currently doesn't really do anything for the good of the army appart from providing dispell scrolls, he doesn't add dice to the common pool, he won't be anywhere near the areas in which his spells would be useful and there is no unit he can support, I would personally dump him for the above Exalted, or I'd remove that extra level of his and use him as a simple Scroll Caddy, freing up points for your Daemon.

For the list itself, you can't have multiple Warbanners, so one has t be removed from the Knights, this leads me back to my earlier point about the list not really being supportive of itself, you have several elements within it, but nothing really helps something else, the closest thing you have to cavalry support is the Daemonprince, and he can only ever help out on one place at a time, and, without the Blade of Ether and/or Soul Hunger, he often isn't as killy as you'd want him to be for his immense points cost. Again, I reffer back to my idea of two disc mounted characters, one Lord for primary magic support and some support-work for the cavalry, and one Exalted for primary cavalry support with the occasional magic-casting (or both of them as magic platforms that can be used in combat when needed).

I also think you would need some flanking, Warhounds often don't cut it as flankers simply due to their high vulnerabillity, they are often cut down by shooting before they get to flank anything. Marauder Horsemen are alot better at this, free reform, strength 5 (with Flails) and the abillity to take a Musician makes these outperform dogs as a flanking/kamikaze-unit by miles. A unit of 5 with Flails and a Musician only costs 81 points.

Your daemons look good, although, I would drop the Furies in favour of another two Screamers and then use the remaining thirty points on expanding the Horror unit to upper the Power Level of the bound spell, PL 7 means the opponent has to use 2 dice to have a chance of stopping the spell, if he wants to be completely and utterly certain, he will use 3, draining Dispell Dice in this way is ALWAYS a good thing to do.

So, my personal changes for the army:

Replace Daemon with:

Lord of Chaos
- Mark of Tzeentch, Disc of Tzeentch, Hallberd, Shield, Golden Eye of Tzeentch, Staff of Change


Replace Scroll Caddy with:

Exalted Champion of Chaos
- Mark of Tzeentch, Disc of Tzeentch, Hallberd, Shield, Gaze of the Gods, Spell Familliar

Or:

Exalted Champion of Chaos
- Mark of Tzeentch, Disc of Tzeentch, Shield, Greatfang (BoC book, trust me, it's worth it, he slaughters Knights like there's no tomorrow when armed with this badboy)


Fore Core, changes would be:

Drop:
one Warbanner
Maybe one Warhound unit

Find the points to add:
5 Marauder Horsemen with Flails and Musician (81 points)


For Special:

Drop Furies

Which gives you the points to add:

2 Screamers
2 Horrors


Don't have my book on me at the moment, so you might have to do some cutting to fit what I've suggested, but I think it won't be all too difficult.

I hope you will at least take some of these advices into consideration when reorganising the list. Is there any particullar reason as to why you want to field a Daemonprince? Or a Tzeentchian army? Since if I know the reasons for that, I think it will be easier for people (me included) to help you with the list without butchering the reason till why you want to play it.

Hive Fleet Spectra
29-09-2007, 22:26
Thank you for your detailed reply Neknoh, it is much appreciated.

I will try to answer your questions you have written at the bottom of your post.

Firstly concerning my reasons for including the Deamonprince. I am a fan of alot of the deamon units, the Tzeentch deamons being my favourites. I've wanted to field a prince for some time, and although he looks good on paper his huge points cost, as you have mentioned, is just to much of a burden on the rest of the army. However, this considered, I simply wanted to give him a try as he does have a few strengths which could be utilised to great effect if used correctly imo.

Having thought about it though you do make a good point, a lord on disc (or an exalted) does appeal to me and seems more reliable, on paper atleast.

You also mentioned using duel characters both on discs. This sounds like a very cool option and I wonder now why i've never thought of it before.

Secondly concerning my reasons for wanting a Tzeentchian army. Tzeentch is my favourite of all the four major powers. After all he is the master of fate (which I believe in myself) and most importantly, magic. This is one of the major factors as to why I started fantasy, I love how it works in game aswell as in the fiction. Being a fan of chaos models and indeed the hordes of chaos book I set out to collect my Tzeentch army.

I realise now that their are proberly other armies which are better in the magic phase than Tzeentch but that isn't the point. I love my army and wish to expand it further. Plus painting bright colours is something I enjoy alot aswell especially the blues, whites and reds.

I hope this helps answer your questions. I would like to thank you again for your post, its always a pleasure to receive a reply from yourself and a few other chaos generals on warseer who, clearly, have alot more experince than myself.

Hive Fleet Spectra.

Neknoh
29-09-2007, 22:50
It does, and, from the looks of it, my advice still stands, the thing is, you picked Tzeentch for fate and magic, something of which neither is all too well represented in your list, the closest thing being the reroll on the Daemonprince, but that's it.

A Lord with the Staff and Eye on a disc coupled with an Exalted armed with a Spell Familliar and the Gaze of the Gods should give you a magic phase which would be a lot more aggressive than that of the current list (staff and both casters being up close and personal) whilst you would still retain the daemons of your Special Choices. You could even model your characters as riding atop of something else than discs, remember, they are only stats for soemthing, and that something could be anything. This would give an even more daemonic feel if pulled off properly I think, a Daemonprince is often better reserved for slightly larger games where he doesn't take a quarter of your army's points.

Now, for the fate-theme of it all, you could either go for an egyptian theme for the entire army, would be rather suiting I think. Or, you could go for the Chaos models (since you love them) and then add small things such as hourglasses and similar to their heraldry and also to the models themselves (raiding an Empire Players bitz-box, or getting a pack o State Troops to convert into... well... converted :p Marauders would give you a bunch of hour-glasses to use). Even the Staff of Change could be modeled as a staff with an hour-glass on top or something similar, the Lord twisting time and fate into his benefit when using the staff. Would also work very well with the general Tzeentch-theme.

I hope you enjoy Chaos as much as I do, good luck on building your army and finding a good theme

theunwantedbeing
29-09-2007, 23:02
The daemon prince, not really much to say about it.
Soul hunger and The blade of ether would be more useful if you ask me.

The sorcerer doesnt do a whole lot to back him up really.
A mounted sorcerer gets a great save and is pretty decent in combat,easily capable of taking down opposing unit champions.

2 war banners is illegal.

Single chariots tend to fare badly, running them in groups of 2-3 is best.

The hounds are fine,possibly reduce them in size to reduce the possibility of them fleeing through your troops and causing panic tests.
6 hounds need 4 kills to not panic friendly troops,5 hounds only need 3 kills.

The horrors are significantly slower than the rest of the army,the flamers dont really help them much.
The screamers and furies are fine though.

On the whole the list seems far too small for a 2k list and doesnt pack the punch that 2k tzeentch armies normally pack.

Your getting 11 powerdice for 6 spells.
You have 3 units really, with a few annoyances that are easily dispatched with a bit of shooting.

The horrors need removing I reckon, swapping for something like some marauder horsemen and another chariot.
You'de be better off with a tzeentchain sorcerer as well as he can "hide" in the knight units plus he has a greater combat ability.