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View Full Version : Speed of Asur test last night. posting results for Ethancross.



Kellindel
29-09-2007, 15:48
Hi Everyone,

I offered to post or PM the results of the games we played last night for Ethancross due to his concern to the "over-powering" aspect of SoA.

The game we were playing was 500 Warbands. I figure this is the best way because it allows for a number of games. Two of them are going to be of interest because they are two of the armies that people think will be gimped by the rule.

Here's the key facts of these battles:
1.) I used only one rule that we know of, SoA. This is because it is confirmed.
2.) Stat listing as best made out by the fuzzy camera shot.
3.) We stuck with the point cost in the current book due the fact that even though the point costs posted here by reliable sources they are still rumors until everyone has a book in their hands to verify.

At the moment I don't have enough time to type out a detailed report because the wife has a "Honey Do" list as long as my arm. I will be back on tonight finishing it up. But where is a befief over view of the results.

Battle One: HE vs. Skaven
- Crushing Victory to the Skaven

Battle Two: HE Vs. Night Goblin
- Marginal victory to High Elves (and this was by the skin of my teeth)

Really quick, SoA was not that overpowering, and seeing how I had a higher "I" I would have been striking first every round anyway. It just allowed the order of combat to be run on the round I got charged.

Quick lists:
Vs. Skaven
Noble: HA, Lance, HW, Steed, Barding, Magic Sheild, Magic Helm (+1 AS with re-roll)

15 Lothen Seaguard with full command and shields (never used one and thought ...what the hell)

4 Silver Helms with HA, and Sheild

Great Eagle

Vs. Night Goblin (Same list with the following changes)
Sea Guard switched out for 15 spearmen with Full command
5 Archers
Giant Eagle switched out for 5 Shadow Warrios
Bolt Thrower

-- The units were purchased because I rolled some extra money and I got some magic Item bomus points due to holding the tower which grants free machine Items. Gold won (100 gp = 100 point) and 25 points for a magic item.

We were playing Mighty Empires as well as Warbands. I was challenged by the Skaven, and since I lost the fist round I was allowed to challenge someone. Seeing how those left were Wood Elf and Goblin, I challenged Goblin since I played that shooty Wood Elf army last time.

You see from the battle report that I will type that though I had some LOUSY ROLLS, that when I got into combat my rolls were pretty average while my opponents were at time rolling HOT. And though my total point for my Spearmen and Sea Guard are "wrong" for the test, I would not have bought more than I had. And they actually performed REALLY well considering the number that were on the board and what I had them do.

Huey Lewis
29-09-2007, 16:29
Conclusive evidence if I've ever seen it.

It also completely addresses the argument of enjoyability.

Excellent work.

Einholt
29-09-2007, 16:35
Thanks for the results and the effort. But I have to say the game is not the same at 500 warbands and at larger points. I will keep an open mind until I see results at the 1500 2000 and 2250 or higher limits. But as a gut feeling I think the blanket aspect of the rule EVERYTHING and ALWAYS was a poor design decision and doesn't strike confidence in the thought process they follow, like I said though open mind until the results start coming in for the true point range the game was made to be played.

Shimmergloom
29-09-2007, 17:28
Conclusive evidence is not 2 500pt battles that did not include any swordsmasters or white lions, which is what everyone is complaining about. You didn't even give your noble a GW on foot to take advantage of his striking first ability to its fullest.

ekxw
29-09-2007, 17:33
i have made a batle with the new rules or best say 2.

dwarfs vs hight elves 2000 points

1 dwarf wins
2 hight elves win

the first one i killed all his troups shooting, he just use an archimage
but the second one was
1 star dragon with star lance
1 noble
2x18 spearmen
12 swordmasters
15 phoenyx guard this ones are one of the best
1charriot
6 silver helms
5 dragon princes
--------------------
2 bolttrowers
2 eagles

that was a good list

- Human
29-09-2007, 18:04
Conclusive evidence if I've ever seen it.

It also completely addresses the argument of enjoyability.

Excellent work.

You're being sarcastic, right? If so, well done. If not... you need to read up on the meaning of "conclusive evidence".

antin3
29-09-2007, 19:42
Waahaaaahaaahaaa I can't wait until the HE take the field with the new army book Waaawaaaahaaa. I will probably win half my games if my opponents are anything like some of the people here, they'll be too busy wiping tears from their eyes to worry about things like deployment and manuevuring. Waaaahaahaa

Kellindel
29-09-2007, 20:42
LOL...

Okay guys .. 500 point warbands is not that big of an army, but everything is scaled for both sides. And yes I didn't include Swordmasters or White Lions or Pheonix Guard. I'm sure some of the results would be a tad different is that were the case. Though I'm not to sure it would be totally different.

I think my point was to find a way to show that the Spearmen were not going to be to overpowering. A lot of the arguements were that the CORE units were now going to beat everything. This just isn't the case.

When a unit of Spearmen met up with a large block unit, like those in the Skaven and Goblin armies, they didn't have that big of an advantage anyway.

As for the case of Swordmasters, chances are pretty good I would have gotten the charge (hence first attack anyway), and since I had a higher Int then I would have continued to get first attack anyway with the current rules. The only way the Swordmasters gain anything, besides 2 Attacks, is that they now strike first even when charged. So it's really only a slight change.

I'm meeting up with a friend tomorrow and we're going to play a pick up game of 1500 points. I'll post the results of that game to. He's playing and O&G army.

BTW .... This was my first time running into Fanatics. And all I have to say is HOLY COW!!!!

They're just plain nasty.

Is there a particular unit you want me to run tomorrow?? PG, SW, or WL???

I'll post the results of the game and let you decide. Now I have to talk one of my friend into playing my HE so I can run my DE against them again in a large battle. Need to see if larger units of CoK can take larger units of Spearmen/SM/PG/WL ...

Neknoh
29-09-2007, 21:01
Thing is, a 15 strong unit of Spearmen or Lother Seaguard will be utterly destroyed by Skaven or Greenskin shooting and magic before even getting into the combat, even at 500 point battles.

Had those units been 20 or 25 large, I think you would have seen slightly different results, also, we have to remember that, as said, Swordsmasters and White Lions are the true benefactors of this rule, as are the Lion Chariots. The Lion Chariots, by having the Speed of Asurian rule, negates one of THE biggest weaknesses of Chariots, being charged by things such as Fast Cavalry, who usually (to my experience at least), ends up winning and fending off the Chariot. In this case, the Fast cav. will be lucky to get more than one or two attacks at the chariot after all those high-strength attacks have come through.

Furthermore, this is also what made Swordsmasters the unit they are, a very, very mean unit on the charge that deffinately can hold it's ground afterwards, elven innitiative with strength five can be very nasty once the second round of combat beginns. However, there was still the chance of flanking them with Fast Cav. if the HE player was not careful, giving you a chance of at least holding the unit up from moving for a turn and thus giving you the chance of charging them the next turn and beating them. Now... now if you charge even the flank of swordsmasters with a unit of heavy cav, the cavalry won't really survive to see the next turn, not slowing the swordsmasters down at all. Also, it has now become rather... difficult to slow Swordsmasters down using sacrificial units, since, well... the sacrificial units will loose quite gruesomely the first turn. I can understand the swordsmasters getting two attacks and all, it deffinately does what Elite Infantry needed doing, gives them punch for prize as well as a good chance of winning combats... however... Swordsmasters allready HAD this, they don't NEED to strike first to be useful, now they've become a very, very no-brainer-ish unit in that they can simply stand there and chop anything that comes their way into little, tiny pieces, heavely armoured or not. Of course, knights might be able to hurt them, but at two attacks a pop, that's 15 strength 5 attacks hitting any and all cavalry that comes charging, which is insane, and it does take the edge off of cavalry. But do keep in mind that this also strikes hard on armies of elite infantry which has NOT gotten any form of fix to their infantry, Chaos (warriors primarilly, although Marauders won't last long either, in fact, the only unit I can imagine standing a decent chance of putting wounds on the Swordsmasters would be Dragon Ogres or Trolls, but that's about it), Orks, Dark Elves (best option... shoot the High Elven poncies :evilgrin: ) and Vampire Counts (though Zombies might still work here... if the block is large enough). The only thing which I can see would manage to charge these would be Grail Knights, where the armoursave coupled with the Wardsave might provide some sort of protection allongside the fact that they only have a frontage of 75mm (aka, "only" 11 attacks).

The rule is just and proper for High Elf Spearmen I think, as is it for White Lions of Chrace, but giving it to High Elf Swordsmasters and Chariots just doesn't sit right with me, had the Swordsmasters gotten their two attacks and a modified version of the Speed (strike at Innitiative Order for instance), I would have NO PROBLEMS AT ALL with the list, however, with them always striking first, I have to join the group of nay-sayers, although, I hope that this post at least has shown a bit as to why I'm sorely against the concept.

EvC
29-09-2007, 21:47
Conclusive evidence is not 2 500pt battles that did not include any swordsmasters or white lions, which is what everyone is complaining about. You didn't even give your noble a GW on foot to take advantage of his striking first ability to its fullest.

Too true. Reminds me of the first report I saw posted my someone who claims he's a great High Elf player who wins most of his games with the current rules set. Instead of taking any fighting heroes like he usually did, he took an Archmage. He did actually use Swordmasters... but decided their best use was to park them in front of the biggest, meanest chariot he could find- and what a shock, they lost, and he lost overall. Guess that means we don't have to worry about them ;)

I also saw another battle report where the undead player outmaneuvred his High Elf opponent and got off a sweet magic charge with Black Knights + a Wight Lord Battle Standard against a unit of Swordmasters and the resulting combat was so brutal (The entire unit of Knights dead in one turn) that the players agreed to restart from the previous magic phase and let the Black Knights charge some Silver Helms instead... even destroying the Helms, the result was a convincining victory for the High Elves (Even after the players got the rules wrong and let the Black Knights strike first after they later charged the Swordmasters in the rear and had Hellish Vigour cast upon them, allowing the Swordmasters to finally be defeated, only requiring 2/3 of the undead army to do so).

Gazak Blacktoof
29-09-2007, 22:46
Is the rumour then that high elves ALWAYS strike first in the first round of any combat?

Is it not that they get to strike first if they are charged in the front only?

-Genuine question as I'm not up to speed on this rumour.

Also wouldn't hellish vigour allow you to strike first given that its a magical ability?-- These trump mundane abilities AFAIK, or else you dice off/ use initiative (which would allow a vamp to attack before elves).

Neknoh
29-09-2007, 22:51
It is actually confirmed:

Speed of Asurian = ALWAYS strikes first

Gazak Blacktoof
29-09-2007, 22:54
Well that's just generally sucky.

Could see the sense in a frontal charge but elves don't have eyes in the backs of their heads last time i looked, not that they could see with all that hair in the way anyhow.

EvC
30-09-2007, 03:14
Also wouldn't hellish vigour allow you to strike first given that its a magical ability?-- These trump mundane abilities AFAIK, or else you dice off/ use initiative (which would allow a vamp to attack before elves).

Nope, that is what the players thought in the game and so the Black Knights did strike before the Swordmasters when in reality they should have been rewarded for their rear charge with being killed before their lances could strike home.

Gazak Blacktoof
30-09-2007, 11:06
Guess I'll have to check the wording for hellish vigour when I next see my mate then.

EvC
30-09-2007, 11:56
I don't think the wording says what happens if the enemy also has the ability, but the section on ASF in the main rulebook does.

Kellindel
01-10-2007, 05:25
OKay people ...

two 2000 point games in. The results were as follows:

Vs. Orcs and Goblin = Lost ... SoA wasn't that big of a factor. This first time the SM hit is was pretty cool. But it happened when they charged and not the other way around. Following rounds of combat were about the same as other Pre-SoA games with them. He adapted really fast.

Vs, DE = Draw (Technically I won but the points were not enough to get a marginal)

Vs. Skaven = Gun line tore me a new one. At one point I almost turned it around but then the Dice went sour on me in turn 3 and part of 4 and it was downhill from there.

Vs. DoW = Won. But it was interesting to take my Spear Elves up against those Pikemen.

It's late. I need to get up early tomorrow for work. I'll try to post better that this tomorrow.

Started at 10am and played all the way through to 10:30pm.

The guys are on the same page as me. My SoA looks good on paper, but it really isn't that big of a deciding factor. They saw the ways around it and they changed their lists up. Saw a few things I didn't think I'd ever see in my life but they were there.

Night all .... tell you the results in better detail later.

WLBjork
01-10-2007, 08:44
Is the rumour then that high elves ALWAYS strike first in the first round of any combat?

Is it not that they get to strike first if they are charged in the front only?

-Genuine question as I'm not up to speed on this rumour.

Also wouldn't hellish vigour allow you to strike first given that its a magical ability?-- These trump mundane abilities AFAIK, or else you dice off/ use initiative (which would allow a vamp to attack before elves).

It's not as easy as that. Magic rules trump normal rules, but ASF is a special rule/ability. Otherwise you could claim that magically induced Fear causes a unit Immune to Psychology to run away!

WageMage
01-10-2007, 09:39
Hi,

I tested it out in 2000 pts battles with both HE and 2 other lists without using any shooting or magic on both sides. (Hey, using only tactics ASF should be beatable right;)). Both list were balanced HtH lists and both got seriously beaten by the HE in combat. (Used +- 2 spearelfs, 2 Dragon Princes, 2 Swordmasters, 1 WL and 1 WL Chariot, Eagles)

Interesting combats and things learned:

- Minotaurs with GW charge Dragon Princes after sacrificing a spawn to them. They lose 1 Mino before striking and as a result lose combat by 1, break and are run down.
- Beast herd is forced to REAR charge a SM unit 7 wide. Whole front rank of the Herd is wiped out and they lose by 2 (SM CR:7, BH CR: 5). They manage to hold but the SM redress the ranks and wipe out the unit next turn.
- Chariots DO whipe out SM units with a good impact roll.
- Lion chariot is not that dangerous => tactics will still see these dead (flank or rear with fast stuf so the lions don't get to strike)

After taking magic and shooting out of the equation, things don't look too good for HTH lists.

- Human
01-10-2007, 12:51
Scale and all that mean nothing. The lesson to take home here is that doing something 3 times doesn't prove anything, ever. If you had lost all 3 games, would that make them unbeatable? If you won all 3, woudl they be underpowered? Please.

Neknoh
01-10-2007, 13:07
I do wonder, in all the test games, did you guys remember to add a second attack to the Swordsmasters?

WageMage
01-10-2007, 15:03
If you had lost all 3 games, would that make them unbeatable? If you won all 3, woudl they be underpowered? Please.Huh,
Nowhere did I claim anything about them being broken or unbeatable etc,...
I just gave my experiences with the new list in an actual battle.
Nothing more but also nothing less.


I do wonder, in all the test games, did you guys remember to add a second attack to the Swordsmasters?Yep, they were added.
The same with the Dragon Princes.

zak
01-10-2007, 15:14
I still think it's far too early to start panicing like a bunch of headless chickens. The rule is there and we have to find ways to combat it. As far as I'm aware HE haven't suddenly become heavily armoured or toughness 4. Therefore shooting will kill them just as well as before. The only problem I forsee is for those few armies with no shooting.

Gazak Blacktoof
01-10-2007, 15:28
Mass hysteria is always prevalent before the release of an army book/ codex whether its well founded or not. Personally (now that the rule has been clarified) I'm not panicking I just flat-out dislike the rule.

Much the same as "intrigue at the court" this rule is going to be one loathed by a fair few players regardless of how it actually impacts upon playability.

Brother Ranz
01-10-2007, 16:34
Using Dwarves to test the Speed of Asuryan seems pretty funny since I've never seen dwarves strike first against High Elves before the rule. Why should it be any different now?

As a matter of fact, don't High Elves strike first more than any army for the most part? What have they really gained? Sure against some and in some situations, they gain first strike where before it would have been the other way, but those cases are not as numerous as many people think. Against stunties and Orcs and even the humans, Elves enjoyed this ability before even getting it in the rules. It was built in to their superior movement and initiative.

Now if High Elves ever get AP3 Botlers.... :D



i have made a batle with the new rules or best say 2.

dwarfs vs hight elves 2000 points

1 dwarf wins
2 hight elves win

the first one i killed all his troups shooting, he just use an archimage
but the second one was
1 star dragon with star lance
1 noble
2x18 spearmen
12 swordmasters
15 phoenyx guard this ones are one of the best
1charriot
6 silver helms
5 dragon princes
--------------------
2 bolttrowers
2 eagles

that was a good list

Kellindel
01-10-2007, 16:52
Scale and all that mean nothing. The lesson to take home here is that doing something 3 times doesn't prove anything, ever. If you had lost all 3 games, would that make them unbeatable? If you won all 3, woudl they be underpowered? Please.

What we're trying to do here is test SoA and post the results from games. With everyone saying it's a broken and unbalancing rule I figured it would be interesting to try it out and see what happens.

I'm of a firm belief that rules, though at first alarming, end up being better on paper than in actual play.

I've had mixed results with the rule. Sometimes I almost considered it wrong, other times it really didn't play that much in my favor. This is against armies that people claim will not have a chance against.

Everyone is allowed their honest opinion. And they can post it for all to see. I guess I'm just trying to find a way to show everyone that there really isn't to much to worry about. There ARE ways to beat this rule with either different lists or tactics, or both.

Here's what I did with my Dark Elves when my friend played my high elves.
vs. Spearelves: Let them get the charge. They loose a rank of attack. My Hatred allowed me to get some rerolls. Low toughness and high AS either come with with a draw or a roll on someones LD.
vs. SM/WL/PG: hit them with ranged attacks before hitting them with CoK and Chariots. Their AS were a bit more resisant against the high Str Attacks. And the HE numbers were lower by the time I hit with with the Heavy Cav so my kills were more devastating. And performing this manuever was a tad done more on faith for me cause I HATE CoK and Chariots. Stupidity always hits me not once or twice, I'm more of the type of person that is actually rolling to see if I can use them once per game.

Magic hasn't really changed for us at the moment. Since the rumors on the spell list for High Magic are not confirmed 100%.

I'm currently playing catch up at work and will try to type up the battle reports but it almost doesn't seem worth it with all the "haters" saying it doesn't prove anything.

Eldarion
01-10-2007, 17:19
See High elves are not broken.

etancross
01-10-2007, 18:48
how did the O&G's do against the swordmasters, or the other highpowered HE units?

Archaon
01-10-2007, 18:56
How can you guys judge an army based on a few known rules?

To my knowledge we know nothing about most points costs, nobody in general knows points costs for magic items and nobody has fielded them under tournament conditions which is the true test if an army is overpowered or not.

Just wait these few weeks, get the armybook and then do some games.. once the HE have faced the other armies and the players have adapted.. then i think we'll be able to judge their effectiveness.

However i'm a bit fired up because in the near future my Dark Elves will get a new book and i'll finally have an up to date, powergamer armybook and can tell the others to suck it instead of sulking at the sidelines because my Dark Elves can't compete in the upper tiers :D

etancross
01-10-2007, 19:00
he posted the results so we could get a basic understanding on how they would/would not affect the game...

i guess i can't be to stoic about the SoA rule yet but i would like to see how things go against some of the harder hitters. :skull:

sephiroth87
01-10-2007, 19:11
It's funny. I remember when the Bretonnian army book was coming out, people heard there was going to be a way to put unbreakable vows on characters. There was even a pdf floating around of the new rulebook and it actually had this. People started complaining about "dwarf slayers on horseback."

Then the final version of the rulebook came out and they had suddenly changed it to "stubborn."


Some things are still subject to change, even until a month or two before release. The rumors that have been floating around long before a month or two ago haven't listed point costs, availability (core vs. special slots), other drawbacks.

While I would agree that no armybook has been perfect, they've been a great deal more balanced than they used to be. I generally give them the benefit of the doubt and work around their more wonky rules because most of them are pretty good and functional rules that are easy to read.

Kellindel
01-10-2007, 22:23
how did the O&G's do against the swordmasters, or the other highpowered HE units?

My Swordmasters hit a goblin block ... Did better than I thought I was going to and the unit broke. I ran it down.

His Black Orcs got a 6 on Animosity and move 5 inches and then charged, hit one flank. I did 4 out of 6 wounds and he save on 2 of them. He then had three attacks back. Hit and Wounded with all three, I didn't make the 6+ AS for any of the three. I BROKE, and rolled a 12 for the flee (There's those 6's) and it took my right into one of his other units.

We were both a tad concerned about what that effect was so we asked one of the GW Shop people and they confirmed that said unit of SM were cut down.

We talked later on and we both agreed that running down the Goblins was the thing to do since the other blocks he had were to far away. He lucked out on the Animosity roll. I was planning on baiting and switching but I thought I had an extra round to set it up. My Cav was tired up elsewhere, and my Archers were a tad out of position to set up a counter charge.

The Lothien Guard though were nice once I got them set up on a hill. Two ranks of bow attack ... Stand and Shot a unit of boyz, and then took the charge. The Resolution was tied until I remembered I had high ground. And proceeded to run them down. They only got three attacks off on the charge. All from the Hero that was in the unit.

etancross
02-10-2007, 19:29
My Swordmasters hit a goblin block ... Did better than I thought I was going to and the unit broke. I ran it down.

His Black Orcs got a 6 on Animosity and move 5 inches and then charged, hit one flank. I did 4 out of 6 wounds and he save on 2 of them. He then had three attacks back. Hit and Wounded with all three, I didn't make the 6+ AS for any of the three. I BROKE, and rolled a 12 for the flee (There's those 6's) and it took my right into one of his other units.

Im still riding the fense on this... because SoA is the difference between hitting a unit with 2 handweapons, great weapons, or HW and Shield.

thanks for the results Kellindel!

W0lf
02-10-2007, 19:47
'His Black Orcs got a 6 on Animosity'

anyone spot the issue?

Black orcs, animosity...

gerrymander61
02-10-2007, 20:00
You guys should try running Bretonnians or Dark elf MSU cav armies against it. I for one do not think that SoA is game breaking, but i think that to properly test it, you need to put it into a situation where it will actually come into play. I mean, as said before, HE often get the charge, and in prolonged rounds of combat, they still often strike first because of high I. And testing against Dwarfs is a joke. Dwarfs should NEVER get the charge on HE unless they include DoW.

Try testing SoA against an army where it will really make a difference. Bet it'll mess up a Bretonnian lance charge like nothing else.

Oh, and wouldn't it be fun to see HE against HE? I mean, it is confirmed that SoA simply states "Always strikes first" and so in any combat with other HE they would always have to roll to see who would get to strike first. I think it'd be a hilarious battle because in combats, the die roll at the start would count for a pile.

etancross
02-10-2007, 20:42
'His Black Orcs got a 6 on Animosity'

anyone spot the issue?

Black orcs, animosity...

AHHHH good catch W0lf as Black Orcs don't test for animosity... i looked right over that.

and to Gary

Orcs ARE and army where SoA would make a difference... because if we get the charge and are going second then you have a decision to make.... Do you want to use Shield and HW or do you want to roll the dice and use 2 hand weapons?

thats a big choice because that determins your armor save, and OR how much damage you do.... Play it safe and use the shield or go Ballz out and use the hand weapon... thats a big decision especially if its a unit of Big'uns or Black Orcs your trying to make the choise with. On the charge 1 round is where you want to do the most damage cause your strength is gonna drop next round.

Lord Tzeentch
02-10-2007, 20:50
'His Black Orcs got a 6 on Animosity'

anyone spot the issue?

Black orcs, animosity...

Im more worried that SM have a 4+ armour. save 6+ vs str 5!! No!!!!!:cries:

My friend and myself tried the Speed of elf man thingy and IMO it was a really fun game.

Unit of longbeards charge into the front and beat the crap out of those masters of febble swords. I did think o crap when i charged as i thought i was going to get the living snot beaten out of me but then i remembered their T3.

etancross
02-10-2007, 21:00
Im more worried that SM have a 4+ armour. save 6+ vs str 5!! No!!!!!:cries:

My friend and myself tried the Speed of elf man thingy and IMO it was a really fun game.

Unit of longbeards charge into the front and beat the crap out of those masters of febble swords. I did think o crap when i charged as i thought i was going to get the living snot beaten out of me but then i remembered their T3.


that T3 always is in the back of my mind also... usually i have da pointy ears running from us but (pardon my lack of knowledge of the pointy ears) don't SM's have greatweapons? What about the great lions?

with greatweapons you can no longer think they are just T3.. you also have to think they are gonna WRECK my armor save!

W0lf
02-10-2007, 21:00
Game breaking: Not really
Gay rule that adds no flavour and is lazy: Yes

Oh and 2 attack swordmasters striking first with S5 means they should take VERY few return attacks..

thats the only real thing i see as being broken, but meh.. my magic missiles will smash them up.

etancross
02-10-2007, 21:02
Game breaking: Not really
Gay rule that adds no flavour and is lazy: Yes

+1 totally agree :skull:

Lord Tzeentch
02-10-2007, 21:05
that T3 always is in the back of my mind also... usually i have da pointy ears running from us but (pardon my lack of knowledge of the pointy ears) don't SM's have greatweapons? What about the great lions?

with greatweapons you can no longer think they are just T3.. you also have to think they are gonna WRECK my armor save!

Yep indeed they do but 2 or 3+ save will mean that they wont kill as much as they would plus T4 is also nice(man i love being a Dwarf)

SM still strike first with great weapons but hey for all you Longbeards out their WE WON THE WAR!!!!!!!!!!!

etancross
02-10-2007, 21:13
Yep indeed they do but 2 or 3+ save will mean that they wont kill as much as they would plus T4 is also nice(man i love being a Dwarf)

SM still strike first with great weapons but hey for all you Longbeards out their WE WON THE WAR!!!!!!!!!!!


Bah.... stunties ain't good fer nuthen but stompen' :evilgrin:

Lord Tzeentch
02-10-2007, 21:20
Bah.... stunties ain't good fer nuthen but stompen' :evilgrin:

:eyebrows:You green beards don't have a chance.

(Smokes pipe) Orks and goblins ain't as big nowerdays:evilgrin:

Halelel
02-10-2007, 21:23
Well, I'm not too keen on writing battle reports, but I'll give it a go as I had a little practice battle at my local shop with my MSU Ogres vs. HE using the new SoA rules.

NOTE: I'm fairly new to Ogres, usually play TK, but a friend quit the hobby and sold his army to me for one of my spare Stratocasters, so ya, :)

Anyways, we played a game of 2000 points, I took the atypical OK list for 2k battles which consisted of a tyrant, pair of butchers, couple units of ironguts (3-4 per unit), couple units of bulls, 4 leadbelchers, 8 trappers, and 2 gorgers, plus the typical assortment of items and scrolls.

I don't remember all the units he had, but he had a a couple bolt throwers, a 25 man unit of swordmasters w/ a fighty general of some sort, a unit of silverhelms, 2 units of 20 spears, couple mages, and a "count as" lion chariot. His list wasn't anything that powerful IMO, he just mainly wanted to test out most of the new rules.

Turn 1 involved me charging as fast as possible towards his army with my ironguts, tyrant and butchers since he only had limited shooting. Than I sent the leadbelchers and some bulls out on the flanks, and the trappers moved forward as skirmishers. On his turn, his RBTs got lucky and took out a butcher, which pretty much guaranteed that the magic phase was his for the rest of the game, he marched his swordmasters right in the middle with a unit of spearmen on one side and the silverhelms on the other, the other unit of spearmen stayed a little ways back anticipating the inevitable gorgers. Mages tried to cast some spells, but dispelled them.

Turn 2 started with me wondering why the bull charge rule even exists since no one I know can ever get it off, but back on point, the 4 ironguts with tyrant unit charged into the swordmasters (I knew this was a huge mistake, but just wanted to see how strong these puny elves were). With SoA rules, we went thru the swordmaster attacks first and they managed to kill off 3 ironguts and cause a wound on the tyrant, my counter attack killed 2 of the weakling elves.

<It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but the dice were generous to me. Looking back at it, a couple good rolls and he could've slaughtered my tyrant and ironguts before they even got to attack, yuck>

Skipping ahead to finish this up, I'll just list the remaining key points.

- One gorger arrived on turn 3 and the other on turn 4, one gorger chewed up the pair of RBT crews (strike first didn't help there, hehe). However, the second one charged the flank of the unit of spearelves who were engaged with my trappers and managed to get itself killed before even getting to attack (mostly lucky rolls there, never seen so many lucky sixes).

- The magic phase just went from bad to worst as my other butcher miscast and exploded gloriously in a shower of blood and guts, much to the amusement of the pansy elves. Needless to say, the magic phase had him pretty much casting whatever he wanted on my poor lads.

The rest of the battle went back and forth for the most part in close combat with the ogres killing more elves, but not being able to overcome the loss in numbers. He ended up with a solid victory, but being new to ogres and just playing for rule testing meant that I wouldn't consider it a typical battle. It was interesting seeing the new rules in action and to echo the sentiments of many, watch out for those swordmasters they were just brutally effective and they may soon get the "grimgor" status from me where I'll kill the rest of an army and just leave them alone.

Kal Taron
02-10-2007, 21:37
I have to say that I dislike the rule.
Not because it may be overpowered (or not) but because it gets the relations between units completely wrong.
Archers striking before attacking Wardancers or Witchelves or whatever? I don`t think so.

Something I would have liked would be something along these lines:
"Charges from and against HE are dissolved in initative order unless someone has the Strikes always first or Strikes always last special rule."

That would mean that HE don`t benefit as much as others from charging but are on the other hand not at a disadvantage if charged. They entirely rely on their initiative. So if the other unit has better initiative they are screwed. Well, who has better Ini than HE?

Archaon
03-10-2007, 01:28
I'll reserve judgement until i've read the book and played against them (though that will take time.. currently i only know one HE player and he's not a regula opponent).

However i fear that people will resort to gunlines against the new HE (well.. those armies that can) and others resort to Magehammer. Anything to put off close combat against elven elite infantry.
Makes for quite a few boring games when you are forced to play a certain way because anything else is too risky.

Let's wait and say.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
03-10-2007, 02:05
From what I've read...this rule could be devastingly powerful for the Elves...

Now not only will they have the greatest (generally speaking) magical power (Slaan unit aside) army, but they will have nigh-indestructible in-close-combat troops too.

Yes they may be Toughness 3...but so are most other units in the game when you look down the line at "average infantry" type things (non monsters, etc.).

The Speed of Asur. crazyness means that there is virtually nothing to stop Elven units from chewing up most attackers, even when outmaneuvered, etc (ie, getting the charge on THEM doesn't really help you - the attacker - at all).


The worst example I've heard of is these dreaded Swordmasters of Hoeth....if the rule allows GREAT Weapon wielders to also strike first....ie the weapon has no weight penalty, cumbersomeness now...in the hands of a strong (err..wait...physically just as strong as a normal human...err..) Elf.


You would have 2-attacks per SM with high WS and +2 STR = STR-5 ...meaning -2 penalty to target's armor saves, and as noted ...the "I strike before you" feature.

So a basic block of:

SXXSS
SSSSS
SSSSS
SSSSS


Where S is a basic SM and the X represents the Champion, etc.


This type of formation would yield you 11 basic attacks with your mighty Greatswords....before any enemy gets to attack !

Meaning you should hit on 3+ against "most" enemy units...and wound on 2+ or 3+ against "most" enemy's also.

Few units will get any Armor Save at all against that -2 penalty, and those that might, will be down to 5+ or 6+, at best, in most instances.


So after the SM unit has attacked "first", it's likely killed off 3-4 enemy models (assuming poor rolls for the Elves probably)....which reduces an enemy frontage of 5 units down to perhaps JUST the champion or S-bearer...meaning the "attack back" is probably 2-3 dice rolls, needing 4+ to hit, and 3+ or 4+ to wound (in most cases).

Wow...and the SM's then get their normal save. So "at worst" for them, they might lose 1-unit...but due to combat res, which will almost always be in their favor, the enemy should have lost and will have to test to Break.

Yay.

Lest the enemy "stick around" - the Elves will laugh heartily (for an Elf)...and heft their swords again, twirling the heavy and wieldy blades like mere toothpicks thanks to the "Speed of A." - :rolleyes:


The next round the exact same thing will happen again !!! IE - the Elves will go first with their Great Weapons at no penalty to the great +2 STR / -2 to Armor Saves result that they gain from the weapons...and another 5-6 enemy models will be cut down - probably leaving Nobody to actually fight back against them this time...



---------

So I can't really see any reason why a new High Elf general would not try to get as many Swordmaster units, or units with any kind of Great Weapon, in general, onto the tabletop since (if the rumorage is true) there is no penalty for wielding the heavy weapons for HE any longer !


Ugh. :eyebrows:

grickherder
03-10-2007, 04:32
If Sword Masters are on 20mm bases, they should go atleast 6 wide, maybe even 7 against armies primarily on 25mm bases.

Kellindel
03-10-2007, 04:49
'His Black Orcs got a 6 on Animosity'

anyone spot the issue?

Black orcs, animosity...

Interesting ... I'll have to bust him on this one. I don't blame him though. He's just stared playing with the new rules.

But making him sweat will be fun!!! :chrome:


Im more worried that SM have a 4+ armour. save 6+ vs str 5!! No!!!!!:cries:


AS4+?? I think that's still a unconfirmed rumor and it looks like they are going to stay at 5+. If the rumor of hitting them with a -1 is still try I think it's still only with missile weapons.



Unit of longbeards charge into the front and beat the crap out of those masters of febble swords. I did think o crap when i charged as i thought i was going to get the living snot beaten out of me but then i remembered their T3.

That's what my friend told me with his Orcs....

**Note to Everyone**
We decided that Chariots got their impact hits first. The Crew and animals went last, after the swordmasters.

Talis
03-10-2007, 05:50
Im more worried that SM have a 4+ armour. save 6+ vs str 5!! No!!!!!:cries:


Don't worry, no infantry in the High Elf book has better than a 5+ save with T3, so they won't get any save against black orcs in the first round of combat -- the trick is just keeping some black orcs alive so they can put down some elves :)

Also, in the Orc Book it says black orcs "are counted as having rolled a 6" for animosity, so that may be what he meant... either that or Kellindel's opponent doesn't know orcs very well yet... maybe he's new to the game?

Anyway, I also think swordmasters will be almost impossible to deal with using any, or most, infantry in the game -- partially because they're faster than almost any other infantry, so the only way to outmanuever them will be to surround them, and also because they're bascially the best straight up fighters... they're also the most expensive ranked infantry from any recent book that will actually get used. But swordmasters being at the top of the food chain doesn't mean white lions and phoenix guard will beat everything in the game -- in fact, they won't, they'll lose to plenty of other armys' elite infantry. And in exchange for their reduced killyness, White Lions and Phoenix Guard are more resistant against chariots, characters, shooting, and magic (and stubborn white lions are also the bane of heavy cavalry, which can give both swordmasters and phoenix guard a run for their money.)

The fact is that the high elves have gotten three of the best elite infantry choices in the game -- I'm not surprised a lot of people don't like it, as elite infantry is for many people one of the most frustrating things to use in the game, because they're usually so fragile for their points against cavalry charges, shooting, and magic, and it's often hard to get them into many combats anyway, because they're relatively slow. The new High Elf infantry is more forgiving and easier to use. (And they used to be pretty much the least forgiving). What makes the High Elf infantry so good, of course, is that they're resistant to charges, in other words protected to some extent in the movement phase against much faster predators like heavy cav and fast cav looking for flanks. While this is a major shift toward elite infantry, I really think the burden of proof should be on those who are certain that this unbalances the game, not on those who are excited to try some of the most powerful elite infantry yet created. But it is good to see discussions moving toward real examples. Good job guys :)

Look forward to hearing about more battles. Been playing a few myself, maybe I'll post one or two.

Talis


*edit*
just realized I hadn't read Kellindel's last post. I thought that orc player must be new. You might also want to point out to him that his Black Orcs are strength 5 in the first round of combat, totally negating your Sword Masters' save, Kellindel.

etancross
03-10-2007, 14:22
With SoA rules, we went thru the swordmaster attacks first and they managed to kill off 3 ironguts and cause a wound on the tyrant, my counter attack killed 2 of the weakling elves.

<It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but the dice were generous to me. Looking back at it, a couple good rolls and he could've slaughtered my tyrant and ironguts before they even got to attack, yuck>

However, the second one charged the flank of the unit of spearelves who were engaged with my trappers and managed to get itself killed before even getting to attack (mostly lucky rolls there, never seen so many lucky sixes).


watch out for those swordmasters they were just brutally effective and they may soon get the "grimgor" status from me where I'll kill the rest of an army and just leave them alone.

this is what i have been saying about the SoA rule, it tips the scale FAR to much in favor of the HE.... you get the charge and you get your butt kicked in a situation where you should be going first.... SoA is ridiculous!!

etancross
03-10-2007, 14:30
Don't worry, no infantry in the High Elf book has better than a 5+ save with T3, so they won't get any save against black orcs in the first round of combat -- the trick is just keeping some black orcs alive so they can put down some elves :)



Easier said that done with HE magic and shooting... its bad enough now and only looking worse! To tell the truth I can't WAIT to play against this because i want to see exactly whats gonna happen when i slam into them.... im just waiting for some HE player to start placing his SM's in 2 or 3 ranks, 7 wide with moderate protection that would be one of the "killyest" units in WHFB and few other units could stad up to that... there are a few that could but not many....

yabbadabba
03-10-2007, 14:34
OK let's just get this in perspective.

The book isn't out yet.
We don't know about the rest of the army.
NOBODY has played enough games against the new HE with a variety of armies to offer any sensible, balanced POV.

It's the same as it always has been - adapt or lose. There will be an inevitable FAQ. Sphincter-clenching unsubstantiated reactions are not worth the electric taken to read them.

Of course this is the highly rational and balanced interweb :rolleyes:

T10
03-10-2007, 14:37
Waahaaaahaaahaaa I can't wait until the HE take the field with the new army book Waaawaaaahaaa. I will probably win half my games if my opponents are anything like some of the people here, they'll be too busy wiping tears from their eyes to worry about things like deployment and manuevuring. Waaaahaahaa

Wow, sarcasm. Awesome!

-T10

etancross
03-10-2007, 14:38
OK let's just get this in perspective.

The book isn't out yet.
We don't know about the rest of the army.
NOBODY has played enough games against the new HE with a variety of armies to offer any sensible, balanced POV.

It's the same as it always has been - adapt or lose. There will be an inevitable FAQ. Sphincter-clenching unsubstantiated reactions are not worth the electric taken to read them.

Of course this is the highly rational and balanced interweb :rolleyes:

ok lets all just close our eyes and pretend it isn't coming... good advice thanks.... :rolleyes:

anyways we have seen the results from a few games played and so far they haven't been very good. NO not every unit of HE's are sword masters but
COME ON!!!

Great weapons going first? On your Armies commander ok i can accept that but on the eletes and troops? No way... its just not right...

yabbadabba
03-10-2007, 14:43
ok lets all just close our eyes and pretend it isn't coming... good advice thanks.... :rolleyes:
anyways we have seen the results from a few games played and so far they haven't been very good. NO not every unit of HE's are sword masters but
COME ON!!!
Great weapons going first? On your Armies commander ok i can accept that but on the eletes and troops? No way... its just not right...

Listen mate, try and explain how you can come up with a rational evaluation of tactics, counter tactics and the synergy of playing with and against HE if you don't have the book?

Or just carry-on running around chicken-licken, if you can't handle being patient and sensible.

etancross
03-10-2007, 14:54
Listen mate, try and explain how you can come up with a rational evaluation of tactics, counter tactics and the synergy of playing with and against HE if you don't have the book?

Or just carry-on running around chicken-licken, if you can't handle being patient and sensible.


why patient? we know its coming, and games are being tested with it! the time to be patient has past and the time to start talking about it is now. So you do what you want with your chicken... ill keep taking about this horriable rule....

T10
03-10-2007, 15:25
Heh. I just love this wonderful atmosphere of fear-mongering and denial. On one side we have the guys decrying the SoA rule as heralding the end of days, and on the extreme opposite we have the guys who think the whole thing is just great. And then we throw into this mix some kids who just want to try things out and see what's what, and they get jumped on for "confusing the issue", as it were.

There's simply nothing like a bout of unsubstantiated speculation and consequent flaming to get the blood pumping.

In my opinion - and I just know you're tripping over each other to learn just what that is - is that the SoA is a poor design decision that will that I speculate (with little-to-none evidence) prove to be overly powerful in game terms. It will give the High Elf armies a distinct edge in a tournament setting.

However, in pre-arranged one-off games that edge will be duly blunted as the High Elf player's opponent re-evaluates his usual army set-up and invests in troops and characters whose efficiency is not significantly countered by not being able to strike first when charging.

This will largely be missile troops, better armoured infantry relying more on static combat resolution, characters with their own first-strike abilities, units that don't usually have the opportunity to charge, heavily armoured knights with lances, and probably a multitude of other unit types that will now see more action than before.

What you will se less of is lightly armoured close combat troops that usually form a supporting role. I can see this resulting in a shift away from the Multiple Small Units approach to army design.

And aside from just setting up an army prepared to take on the High Elves, there is also the actual battle to be fought...

-T10

etancross
03-10-2007, 15:36
In my opinion - and I just know you're tripping over each other to learn just what that is - is that the SoA is a poor design decision that will that I speculate (with little-to-none evidence) prove to be overly powerful in game terms. It will give the High Elf armies a distinct edge in a tournament setting.


amazing... you basically said what everyone else has been saying, but instead giving an opinion and not basing that opinion on any games that have been seen here in the form of battle reps, or going off of the complaints of the other forum users, and presented it in a way that seemed intelligent and forthcoming while at the same time riding the fence (to an extent), and NOT getting chaffed... nice. :p

i like it.....

TzarNikolai
03-10-2007, 15:54
The worst example I've heard of is these dreaded Swordmasters of Hoeth....if the rule allows GREAT Weapon wielders to also strike first....ie the weapon has no weight penalty, cumbersomeness now...in the hands of a strong (err..wait...physically just as strong as a normal human...err..) Elf.

......

The next round the exact same thing will happen again !!! IE - the Elves will go first with their Great Weapons at no penalty to the great +2 STR / -2 to Armor Saves result that they gain from the weapons...and another 5-6 enemy models will be cut down - probably leaving Nobody to actually fight back against them this time...

......

So I can't really see any reason why a new High Elf general would not try to get as many Swordmaster units, or units with any kind of Great Weapon, in general, onto the tabletop since (if the rumorage is true) there is no penalty for wielding the heavy weapons for HE any longer !


wow.

you're obviously an expert on high elves. the rest of us were under the impression sword masters currently struck in initiative order... for those dreaded sword masters there never was a penalty for weilding a great weapon.

everyone else thats complaining that plays anything remotely shooty, how are those uber expensive T3, 5+ elves going to make it into combat?

sephiroth87
03-10-2007, 17:40
The Theoryhammer folks haven't got that one hammered out yet. The most they'll say right now is that High Elves will pull down their pants and jab 4.732431 x pi crossbowmen/handgunners/thunderers in the eyes with their huge elf members up to a 720 inch range, proving conclusively that the high elves are the best army evar.

Gazak Blacktoof
03-10-2007, 17:51
What you will se less of is lightly armoured close combat troops that usually form a supporting role. I can see this resulting in a shift away from the Multiple Small Units approach to army design.

-T10

I've been waiting for somebody to point this out. This is the only plus I can see from the rule.

The meta-game will hopefully swing away from horrid skirmisher armies and people can start playing proper battles. Be a real man, take that charge!:D

Duck Dodgers
03-10-2007, 18:13
Great weapons going first? On your Armies commander ok i can accept that but on the eletes and troops? No way... its just not right...

But it's what happens now... SW go in Initiative Order, so if they get the charge, they go first... then go in thier initiative, which is 5... almost nothing goes first against them anyway.

I'd be far more worried about the 2 attacks SM are rumored to be getting... That will have a far greater effect than ASF. And, as the US preview of the model line places Silver Helms in the Special category, I'd expect to see more Dragon Princes, which are rumored to also have 2 attacks. I know I'll be fielding those more than Silver Helms if that is the case...

etancross
03-10-2007, 18:46
if they get the charge, they go first....

key words "If they get the charge" but now its NO MATTER WHO gets the charge they go first.. thats what i have a proble with.

zak
03-10-2007, 18:53
I'm not burying my head in the sand, but I'm also not running around worrying about the army. I play Beasts, which with little or no shooting will probably struggle more than most against HE Sword Masters is seen as a new challenge rather than a reason to start cutting my wrists.
I will wait to see exactly what the rule states. It will be interesting if impact hits are worked out first as this will tip the balance back in the favour of my beasts. Once I know the full details AS PRINTED IN THE ACTUAL BOOK then I will start planning ways to combat them.
This is a game of tactics and if it wasn't challenging I would give up and find something new. All GW have done is present a new challenge, which I'm looking forward to meeting. I might lose once or twice, but then that tends to happen all of the time with new armies until you adapt your style of play, not always your model/unit choices.


I know I'll be fielding those more than Silver Helms if that is the case..

What your forgetting is the COST of the Dragon Princes. I don't know what the relevant units cost and any comparison is moot until the pros and cons are known.

Gazak Blacktoof
03-10-2007, 18:57
I will wait to see exactly what the rule states. It will be interesting if impact hits are worked out first

I can tell you right now that impact hits will be first. Impact hits are worked out before combat begins. They go before assasins, magic weapons, elves and slaaneshi daemons or anything else that "strikes first".

Brother Ranz
03-10-2007, 19:02
I realize that some of you are upset at this potential injustice, but I for one would take your protest and doom-saying a little more seriously if you would take another few seconds to tidy up your posts a bit. This is supposed to be conversational and formalities are not needed, but contractions, caps, punctuation and consistency are severely lacking. What you are saying could be smart, but it looks less smart. We all make mistakes and take shortcuts so I'm trying not to be too picky.

etancross
03-10-2007, 19:08
The Theoryhammer folks haven't got that one hammered out yet. The most they'll say right now is that High Elves will pull down their pants and jab 4.732431 x pi crossbowmen/handgunners/thunderers in the eyes with their huge elf members up to a 720 inch range, proving conclusively that the high elves are the best army evar.

I dont know how i missed this but i must have laughed for ten minutes... it actually made me forget the crap that the would be english teacher before me was spouting.

Duck Dodgers
03-10-2007, 22:15
What your forgetting is the COST of the Dragon Princes. I don't know what the relevant units cost and any comparison is moot until the pros and cons are known.

You are right... discussing what you'll field based on what very little information we have (costs, stat lines, etc) is, at best, speculative. But, my statement was made based on Current book.

Currently, a standard Silver Helm in Heavy Armor and Shield costs 23 points (19 base + 2 heavy armor +2 shield), and a Core unit. A Dragon Prince costs 26 (dragon armor and shield standard) and a Special unit. A DP has a WS5 vs WS4, I6 vs I5, and a Ld9 vs Ld8. Add the extra inch of base movement, and the fire resistant armor, and DPs are realy worth the cost, if you're using SH as a Heavy Infantry unit. Add a 2nd attack a round, without a significant point cost change, and make both units special, (US model line preview implies this change) and yes, DP units would be preferred (even if they lose the extra movement).

Having said that, since DP will still be a Metal/Plastic combination miniature, and significantly more expensive than SH, my wallet will most likely force me to field my SH force for a while longer... but then, SM will also be metal figures, and a while building up a better block than I have (I have 10 figs).
All I can say is that my High Elf army (at about 2000 points, if I stretch a bit now) will take a while to rebuild under the new rules, no matter what teh book says. :p

Tobias
03-10-2007, 22:30
Take a SH add, immunity to fire, extra WS and an extra attacks and extra LD for 7 points. I do not consider that as overpowering, I mean it is 7 points ...

Tuch
04-10-2007, 06:57
One good thing that comes from these always striking first greatweapon wielding fairies is that I don't have to over contemplate about where I aim my Hellcannon. :)

yabbadabba
04-10-2007, 09:58
One thing we don't know anything about is thigs like magic items e.t.c. It might be that ASF is there, but the magic protection and weapons are not as potent as other lists. Hence they might hit you first, but if you get to hit back ... ... Unlikely though as High Elves are suppoesed to be one of the most magical of races :)

The age old problems of Elves are still there - to few, expensive units with average armour and S/T 3. If you know you are facing HE you should be able to temper your army to counter their bonuses.

The next challenge comes in a tounament, however the HE players will be thinking about what could cause them problems, and tailoring their army for that. Once you work out how they plan to overcome their issues, you can design an army to counter that, and see if it would be effective against other armies.

Personally I can see the return of several things to counter high elves. On the good side, big units, heavy infantry making a comeback, smaller, distracting units to tie up HE elites or to out flank the lesser number of HE units and more armies making a better use of their missile capabilities. I can also see some less savoury things - more neutralised magic phases and more gunlines. Also more dwarf armies! That bit might be not too bad.

WageMage
04-10-2007, 10:26
If you know you are facing HE you should be able to temper your army to counter their bonuses.This quote actually says it all.
I would like to play my games without tailoring my units to my opponent.
This is not a card game where you should get to sideboard some units just in case.
As it stands now most of my support troops are useless against the HE, while my HTH troops will avoid contact as long as possible in order to soften them up.

My conclusion (and I have played some test games) is that it doesn’t make the game enjoyable for me => my main issue as I only play games for fun!

Hey look my [insert average unit] manoeuvred for a rear charge on these [insert elite HE unit] but instead of charging I’ll just hang back and march block because I’ll get slaughtered.:wtf:

T10
04-10-2007, 11:25
Then perhaps it is time to reconsider your army composition in general and change out some of those weaker support units. Change is good for you, you know.

Seriously: There's no help in complaining that you have a problem if you are unwilling to take action to rectify it.

-T10

EvC
04-10-2007, 11:39
You arrange a game, he says he's bringing "some Elves"... so do you bring the support units that are handy against Dark Elves, good at baiting Wood Elves and next to useless against High Elves? It's a gamble... might as well be playing rock/ paper/ scissors :D

WageMage
04-10-2007, 12:07
Then perhaps it is time to reconsider your army composition in general and change out some of those weaker support units. Change is good for you, you know.

Seriously: There's no help in complaining that you have a problem if you are unwilling to take action to rectify it.I would agree with you in principle, except in my case I will need to be adding Jezzails against DP, Ratling guns for the infantry and Lightning cannons for the Dragons => see my point in fun. All these shooty units will mean there is no more place for my Plague Monks, Censer bearers, etc...
Kind of ironic thad SAD is hated but will be the most effective build again.:rolleyes:
I would like to see my tactics win the day, not the dice.

PS: Oh, yeah. Let's not forget that stuff like that is very expensive in $.:mad::mad:

T10
04-10-2007, 13:17
I meant to suggest that you may need to take your "all-purpose" army back to the drawing board, because now the playing-field is changing. you obviously feel that you have an established army that performs well (as in: fun!) against most other armies. Now there's a new army and you need to adapt.

I'm not saying that you'll automatically win, but you'll at least be better prepared.
-T10

The SkaerKrow
04-10-2007, 13:26
Seriously: There's no help in complaining that you have a problem if you are unwilling to take action to rectify it.

-T10
So now he should bring nothing but Chariots, Crossbowmen and Reaper Bolt Throwers in his army, because he *might* be facing High Elves and next to nothing else in his list is effective against them? :rolleyes: I think not.

yabbadabba
04-10-2007, 13:42
T10 has a point.

The playing field has changed. The tactics of old might no longer work. So it is time to get some new tactics. And this is why despite the cost, building a single version of an army is a bad idea.

This is why some people work on one army for a few years, playtesting and painting up a wide selection of units so that they can cope with change. While having one army list that can either (a) cope with a variety of situations or (b) is damned good at a single, 90% match winning tactic, might be ok, it doesn't give you the unit choice flexibility you need. Especially if after all this time we should all know that at least once a year, GW changes the goal posts by releasing a new army.

And as I said before. Bear in mind the old HE issues are probably still there - outnumbered and most of them are S/T 3 and 5+sv.

If you don't want to change your army or you tactics, be prepared for some losses.

etancross
04-10-2007, 14:08
If you don't want to change your army or you tactics, be prepared for some losses.

The problem with this is what if your army is strong in CC but magic and shoot are “ok”? or what if you have no shooting? I have never done that well with shooting attacks (but i've seen other orc players who are a little better) but HE magic is WAAAY better than what I have now and they get a +1 or +2 to their casts… As if that wasn’t a bad enough gift they are now getting SoA where they can swing a great weapon like Tiger Woods swings a club.

Their shooting is also pretty damn good and if they bring some (like 2) RBT’s and some archers (it doesn’t matter if they are S3, if you bring enough, Orcs and other armies WILL start failing armor saves) that combined with the afore mentioned magic… and THEN when I get to a point where I can use my armies strong point… I don’t even get that because they (HE's) are going first…. So “IF” I get a charge instead of using 2 hand weapons and opening up a can of whupp a$$ I have to think… geez do I go for it and use the 2 hand weapons or do I use a shield so I can get a better save and hope I survive?

I can change tactics and much as I like, I can use as much speed as I like and build around that, but sooner or later I HAVE to get into CC and then my assets are negated even if i get a charge. So units that could hold up/ have a chance at winning a combat from a suprise charge (ex Squig hoppers) are gonna get chopped down in a hail of cheese because of a stupid rule thats nothing more than a "Gift" to this army.

Finnigan2004
04-10-2007, 14:17
T10 and yabbadabba are exactly right. You might have to either accept that it is an uphill battle when the playing field changes, or change your army composition. No one is saying that he needs to change his entire army, rather they are saying that if you plan to play in tournaments, etc. the metagame will change. You now have to be able to deal with solid infantry that might actually hurt you (instead of speedbumps for your uber cavalry units). You might need to change a unit or two to help you balance your army.

For example, I could see a horde skaven army doing well against a smaller high elf force for example-- winning by overwhelming them with numbers and using combat resolution (easy to stop one skaven unit from hitting your flank, but not as easy when you're outnumbered 3 to 1 or worse). Specific advice will have to wait until late November though, when we all actually know what we are talking about.

I understand that this is a pain, from my own experience. In my case, I very much like my bloodletters and I spent a lot of time and money getting sixty of them ready to play with. When I take them though, I have to acknowledge that it will be a far tougher battle than if I substitute half of them for flesh hounds (I must say it again. No matter what appears on the surface, T 3, 16 pt, lightly armoured infantry are pants-- new high elves might change this, but we will see). I still use them from time to time, but I understand that when I bring a knife to a gunfight, I have no one but myself to blame.

Simply put, some units will always be more effective than others-- partially by design (i.e. empire should have the best artillery) and partially because balancing a game with as many unit interactions as warhammer is impossible (and somewhat undesireable, but that is an entirely seperate conversation about dumbing down 40k).

T10
04-10-2007, 14:25
So now he should bring nothing but Chariots, Crossbowmen and Reaper Bolt Throwers in his army, because he *might* be facing High Elves and next to nothing else in his list is effective against them? :rolleyes: I think not.

Snazzy and sharp rebuttal, there, kid. Snazzy. If you stop rolling your eyes so much, you'll find that the sense of dizziness wil pass and the room settle.

Upping the number of units that are good against High Elves doesn't mean tailoring your army to face them and only them ever again.

-T10

etancross
04-10-2007, 14:58
Ok... after looking over a few HE army lists, and from the games i've played against them in the past… i'm starting to thing this won’t be so bad “IF” they increase unit prices (by at least a point or two a model), and do something about their magic, because we know they won’t do anything about their shooting.

Playing Orcs combat res will be in my favor (although i'm gonna have to try to find someway to combat their elites because the HE elites CAN kill enough to tip things in their favor in the 1st round of combat and then wreck me if it goes to a second round because I will lose strength and hope he starts rolling bad.)

Like I said if shooting or magic is nerfed or they give HE’s major penalties for miscasts then I will agree this isn’t that bad…. but anything less makes facing this army more than an up hill battle, because I already have a monkey on my back with low leadership, and animosity… but SoA turns that monkey into a 500lbs gorilla.

knightwire
04-10-2007, 15:21
I couldn't agree with you more T10.

yabbadabba
04-10-2007, 15:28
The problem with this is what if your army is strong in CC but magic and shoot are “ok”? or what if you have no shooting? I have never done that well with shooting attacks (but i've seen other orc players who are a little better) but HE magic is WAAAY better than what I have now and they get a +1 or +2 to their casts… As if that wasn’t a bad enough gift they are now getting SoA where they can swing a great weapon like Tiger Woods swings a club.

Their shooting is also pretty damn good and if they bring some (like 2) RBT’s and some archers (it doesn’t matter if they are S3, if you bring enough, Orcs and other armies WILL start failing armor saves) that combined with the afore mentioned magic… and THEN when I get to a point where I can use my armies strong point… I don’t even get that because they (HE's) are going first…. So “IF” I get a charge instead of using 2 hand weapons and opening up a can of whupp a$$ I have to think… geez do I go for it and use the 2 hand weapons or do I use a shield so I can get a better save and hope I survive?.

I can change tactics and much as I like, I can use as much speed as I like and build around that, but sooner or later I HAVE to get into CC and then my assets are negated even if i get a charge. So units that could hold up/ have a chance at winning a combat from a suprise charge (ex Squig hoppers) are gonna get chopped down in a hail of cheese because of a stupid rule thats nothing more than a "Gift" to this army.

Ok I hope I won't offend with this.

WFB consists of 4 real phases - Movement, Magic, Shooting, Combat.
At the moment it appears that HE are the king (or other related family member) of all 4? Well ... ...

Movement consist of 3 key areas - deployment, speed and number of units. Chances are for most armies, you have an equal chance with deployment as your opponent. HE can be faster than a lot of stuff, but again it depends what units are facing what units. As for number of units, some armies will out number them, giving a tactical advantage and others will be about the same. If I remember right, HE have no cheap troops, like DE and WE in comparison to other armies. Conclusion? The right number of units and deployment will give you this phase.

Magic - HE are traditionally great in your magic phase, with great magic but an equal chance of getting it off in theirs. It will be hard work to get magic past them so don't . go for scroll caddies and neutralise the magic phase. Boring, but effective and will aggravate your opponent - in a play sense.

Shooting - All elves are good at this. Again probability is that HE archers will still be S3 and expensive to take. So you can counter this by having heavy infantry/cavalry and/or lots of small archer units, you wil outnumber your opponent. RBT are effective, so try and monster/war machine them, or skirmishing/scout archers. Remember you probably won't have a magic phase, and always use cover.

Combat - this is the one that is going to take the most amount of effort and planning. You will need good sized units that can take a pounding to fix to the front, while havig smaller, more manouverable units to flank/rear. You are going for rank bonus+std+outnumbering+kills vs std+Kills. You will also need distracting units to tie down the elites to the front, or to pull the out of the way for flank charges.
As for those elites, unless you are playing a big game, I doubt if we will see big elite units. so flank charges are the order of the day for those guys. Charge cavalry before being charged to negate the lance bonus.

I know all this is basic - but I believe it is those basic principles which will win the game against High Elves just based on ASF. It's back to that old HE mantra - S/T3, 5+ Sv.

etancross
04-10-2007, 16:01
Ok I hope I won't offend with this.

WFB consists of 4 real phases - Movement, Magic, Shooting, Combat.
At the moment it appears that HE are the king (or other related family member) of all 4? Well ... ...

Movement consist of 3 key areas - deployment, speed and number of units. Chances are for most armies, you have an equal chance with deployment as your opponent. HE can be faster than a lot of stuff, but again it depends what units are facing what units. As for number of units, some armies will out number them, giving a tactical advantage and others will be about the same. If I remember right, HE have no cheap troops, like DE and WE in comparison to other armies. Conclusion? The right number of units and deployment will give you this phase.

Magic - HE are traditionally great in your magic phase, with great magic but an equal chance of getting it off in theirs. It will be hard work to get magic past them so don't . go for scroll caddies and neutralise the magic phase. Boring, but effective and will aggravate your opponent - in a play sense.

Shooting - All elves are good at this. Again probability is that HE archers will still be S3 and expensive to take. So you can counter this by having heavy infantry/cavalry and/or lots of small archer units, you wil outnumber your opponent. RBT are effective, so try and monster/war machine them, or skirmishing/scout archers. Remember you probably won't have a magic phase, and always use cover.

Combat - this is the one that is going to take the most amount of effort and planning. You will need good sized units that can take a pounding to fix to the front, while havig smaller, more manouverable units to flank/rear. You are going for rank bonus+std+outnumbering+kills vs std+Kills. You will also need distracting units to tie down the elites to the front, or to pull the out of the way for flank charges.
As for those elites, unless you are playing a big game, I doubt if we will see big elite units. so flank charges are the order of the day for those guys. Charge cavalry before being charged to negate the lance bonus.

I know all this is basic - but I believe it is those basic principles which will win the game against High Elves just based on ASF. It's back to that old HE mantra - S/T3, 5+ Sv.



hmm...

im changing my last comment so i won't be banned from warseer...

Brother Ranz
04-10-2007, 17:58
It looked as if the debate was going somewhere until the last few silly posts. :wtf:


Anyone who wants to see more panic, go to druchii.net or look at some of the dark elf trolling at asur.org. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


I don't play High elves and have no plans to do so. As a matter of fact, my primary WFB opponent will be playing them almost all of the time. I welcome the challenge and I am happy that HE are a little better this time 'round.

There are several factions that see no appreciable difference when fighting the new HE juggernaught. Dwarves, VC, Orcs & Gobbos, Lizardmen come to mind. Assuming that the HE lose something in choice, cost, power level...the HE lose in the metagame against any faction against whom they have always enjoyed effective "first strike." To me, that seems a pretty devastating loss.

Points spent on Swordmasters are not points spent on missile troops or great wizards or whatever. There is a balance involved. If the HE player comes at you with 25% of his army as firststriking str5 infantry, you should be able to figure a way to slow that down and hurt the HE army elsewhere while you nibble at the SM with missile fire or tarpit units, right? It's kind of difficult to playtest the new rules without having the facts about the rest of the army book. We have an idea of what the HE have gained, but little about their losses.

etancross
04-10-2007, 18:14
It looked as if the debate was going somewhere until the last few silly posts. :wtf:


Anyone who wants to see more panic, go to druchii.net or look at some of the dark elf trolling at asur.org. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


I don't play High elves and have no plans to do so. As a matter of fact, my primary WFB opponent will be playing them almost all of the time. I welcome the challenge and I am happy that HE are a little better this time 'round.

There are several factions that see no appreciable difference when fighting the new HE juggernaught. Dwarves, VC, Orcs & Gobbos, Lizardmen come to mind. Assuming that the HE lose something in choice, cost, power level...the HE lose in the metagame against any faction against whom they have always enjoyed effective "first strike." To me, that seems a pretty devastating loss.

Points spent on Swordmasters are not points spent on missile troops or great wizards or whatever. There is a balance involved. If the HE player comes at you with 25% of his army as firststriking str5 infantry, you should be able to figure a way to slow that down and hurt the HE army elsewhere while you nibble at the SM with missile fire or tarpit units, right? It's kind of difficult to playtest the new rules without having the facts about the rest of the army book. We have an idea of what the HE have gained, but little about their losses.


as far as panic goes, if you go up about 7 - 8 posts and see what i wrote, after reviewing some current army lists and from waht ive seen when i played against them as long as points for certin things are boosted i really won't mind, BUT if im playing a HE player and he has as many models as i do on the table im gonna have green steam rolling out of my ears.

Brother Ranz
04-10-2007, 18:34
Fair enough!
;)

sephiroth87
04-10-2007, 21:12
as far as panic goes, if you go up about 7 - 8 posts and see what i wrote, after reviewing some current army lists and from waht ive seen when i played against them as long as points for certin things are boosted i really won't mind, BUT if im playing a HE player and he has as many models as i do on the table im gonna have green steam rolling out of my ears.

I would suggest Orc Chariots. 80 points apiece and cheap. If nothing else, take Grimgor and run his unit right at the swordmasters. See who runs first... the coneheaded nancy boys won't be able to play chicken against him. :D

Chiungalla
04-10-2007, 21:21
Ok... after looking over a few HE army lists, and from the games i've played against them in the past… i'm starting to thing this won’t be so bad “IF” they increase unit prices (by at least a point or two a model), and do something about their magic, because we know they won’t do anything about their shooting.

Increse unit prices from the old prices in the army book, or from the prices which are in the rumors?

15 points for a swordmaster, phoenix guard or white lion (as in the rumors) sounds very fair for me.

I have done some armylists with the pointcosts of the rumors and I have my daubt that this few elves, will cause any serious trouble to most armys.


Playing Orcs combat res will be in my favor (although i'm gonna have to try to find someway to combat their elites because the HE elites CAN kill enough to tip things in their favor in the 1st round of combat and then wreck me if it goes to a second round because I will lose strength and hope he starts rolling bad.)

And that is fair enough, the elite high elves, have a fair chance to win a close combat vs. orcs. No automatic victory, and no automatic defeat, for neither side.

And that is the good point in this rule. No auto victory against some hundred points of elves, by simply charging them.
Like it was with the old army book. And no one will field some hundret points of infantry under this assumption.


Like I said if shooting or magic is nerfed or they give HE’s major penalties for miscasts then I will agree this isn’t that bad…. but anything less makes facing this army more than an up hill battle, because I already have a monkey on my back with low leadership, and animosity… but SoA turns that monkey into a 500lbs gorilla.

You, like all critics of the new armybook, need to see all the rules and changes, and not only speed of asur.

- Silver helms no longer core, will prevent high elves from fielding good core troops. You need to take archers or spearmen, both more average choices.

- Most units are up in point costs, and so we will see far fewer high elves on the field, when we face high elves.

- Dragon princes slowed down.

- Infantry is good, allways strikes first, swordmaster with 2 attacks, phoenix guard with 4+ ward save and white lions with strengh 6 and 3+ armor vs. missles.

- But for every expensive unit of infantry you will see one unit of cavalry less.

Over all the old high elves army book wasn't that great, it was average at best. The new one is probably better. High elves are now realy elite, but even fewer than in the last edition. They have some great advantages, but also some disadvantages with the new army book.

My guess is, that the new high elves will be a very good army over all, but very fragile against shooting, chariots, fanatics and great numbers.
Fear will also work fine against high elves.

Farsot
05-10-2007, 06:40
Crap. Back to adding Gobbos into da all Orky legion again. Bolt throwes and Doomdivers, 'ere-we-go! Them lonely arrerboyz just not gonna cut it any more :P

The Sword Masters will be a pain in the **** for O&G, OM & Chaos, that's for shure.

If I where HE I'd throw around atleats two smaller units of SMs like two two ranked 10-14 units for some great flanking power for maybe spearmen and some back up repeaters and bows. Sweet stuff. Not to mention that lovely Chariot with its 6+D6 S5 attacks n hits, ouch. More O&G Chariots for me!

Guess Trolls would be fairly decent against them, SM, to, atleast they regenerate their lost wounds (well, with some luck). But I never manage to fit some trolls into my Chaos or O&G armies, guess I have to start reconsider.

yabbadabba
05-10-2007, 08:35
hmm...

im changing my last comment so i won't be banned from warseer...

If you disagree with my comments fine - this is a forum and discussion is what it is there for.

Coming up with a facetious comment doesn't help at all.

Unless of course you are not interested in debating and just want to stand there shouting with your hands over your ears.

Hihg Elves are not impossible to beat and within 12-18 months most people will have their tournament tactics sown up as well. So, what are your ideas fro combatting this new scourge(:rolleyes:) of Warhammer etancross?

The SkaerKrow
05-10-2007, 09:38
Upping the number of units that are good against High Elves doesn't mean tailoring your army to face them and only them ever again.

-T10
Predictable and utterly pointless attempt to insult me aside, how do you figure? Speed of Asuryan completely neuters every single Dark Elf melee troop that doesn't cause Impact Hits or have an extremely high armor save, and in case you aren't aware, those neutered units aren't cheap. Do you want to be the guy that brought multiple blocks of Witch Elves against an army that will decimate those units as soon as they charge? Executioners face the same problem, and Harpies, Spear Warriors, Corsairs and Dark Pegasi. Even the Manticore is suddenly very exposed. Dark Riders positioned to threaten the flanks of light infantry? That's very risky now too. What are we left with? Repeater Crossbows, Reaper Bolt Throwers, Chariots and CoKs (both of which are unreliable), Hydras and the Dragon (unless you also fancy your chances at overpowering the magic defenses of the Asur). That's, what, about half of the book which is now little more than a liability against High Elves? Yeah, sounds real fun. I'll get right on designing an all-comers list that basically ignores infantry combat.

Beyond that, our shooting force is going to have a heck of a time even panicking the High Elves, what with their ability to re-roll failed Psychology tests. Here's another handy little gem, several people like to play their Dark Elves MSU-style, which Speed of Asuryan also neuters. Now your blocks need the static CR and extra bodies if they want to stand up to an enemy that cuts them down as they charge in.

The release of a new army should definitely give players a reason to redesign their tactics, not the fundamentals of their army composition. For that reason I agree with WageMage in wondering if SoA is going to be any fun to play against for a lot of the older armies (especially Dark Elves). If you find some flaw in my reasoning, by all means, share.

Latro
05-10-2007, 09:57
There are several factions that see no appreciable difference when fighting the new HE juggernaught. Dwarves, VC, Orcs & Gobbos, Lizardmen come to mind.

Drain Magic ... if that nasty spell works the way the rumours say it will, it can single-handedly shut down any VC army that relies on magic. With the High Elf ability to cast spells at Total Power the chances of stopping it are very small. Getting +3 (or even +6) to the casting cost of all summoning spells will stop raising meaningful numbers dead in its tracks.


:cool:

The SkaerKrow
05-10-2007, 10:11
There are several factions that see no appreciable difference when fighting the new HE juggernaught. Dwarves, VC, Orcs & Gobbos, Lizardmen come to mind. Assuming that the HE lose something in choice, cost, power level...the HE lose in the metagame against any faction against whom they have always enjoyed effective "first strike." To me, that seems a pretty devastating loss.
Orcs and Goblins have several abilities that compel them to head straight towards the nearest enemy (6 on the Animosity Table, Hand of Gork, WAAGH! Spell, etc), possibly charging them. Where before this wasn't a bad thing (Orc Boyz w/ Additional Choppas love charging poncy, squishy Elf Boyz), this could potentially send a lightly armored block of Greenskins right into the teeth of 16, hitting on 3, wounding on 4/5 attacks. Realistically, this is pretty much suicide. So while Fanatics, Chariots and War Machines are wholly unaffected, Orc and Goblin armies that like beating things the old fashioned way have not only lost most of the advantages of their extra movement abilities, but have also lost the only turn of combat in which they might have struck before their High Elven opponents.

p3990013
05-10-2007, 10:27
What I am afraid that will happen with SoA is that we will see even fewer infantry units :(

I would prefer that only few select units had this ability, like spearmen, who need that 'extra punch'...

EvC
05-10-2007, 11:05
Drain Magic ... if that nasty spell works the way the rumours say it will, it can single-handedly shut down any VC army that relies on magic. With the High Elf ability to cast spells at Total Power the chances of stopping it are very small. Getting +3 (or even +6) to the casting cost of all summoning spells will stop raising meaningful numbers dead in its tracks.

Not really. If you want success with magic, you have to score high enough to not have the spell displled in the first place, so if it's an important spell you'll be rolling enough dice to give you a few more than the casting value in the first place. High Elf players are most welcome to use the Book of Hoeth, yes it makes them more likely to get IF, but to get its greatest effects they're at high risk of miscast. It's only really viable on Teclis, whom I expect we'll see on the battlefield a lot more.

Latro
05-10-2007, 11:22
Not really. If you want success with magic, you have to score high enough to not have the spell displled in the first place, so if it's an important spell you'll be rolling enough dice to give you a few more than the casting value in the first place. High Elf players are most welcome to use the Book of Hoeth, yes it makes them more likely to get IF, but to get its greatest effects they're at high risk of miscast. It's only really viable on Teclis, whom I expect we'll see on the battlefield a lot more.

You're forgetting that the main source of summoning is the regular lvl2 Necromancer. He can only use three dice to to cast, which is very risky to use on the most effective 7+ summoning spell (2d6 skeletons or 2d6+2 zombies) if it becomes a 10+ spell.

So what can he do?

- Cast it anyway and accept that roughly half the attempts fail ... less succesful summonings and more dispel dice left to dispel the rest.

- Cast the weaker version at 6+ with more succes ... but only d6 or d6+1 fresh corpses to strengthen the line, half the number of before.

Drain Magic against VC will have a big impact.


:cool:

Finnigan2004
05-10-2007, 13:37
Beyond that, our shooting force is going to have a heck of a time even panicking the High Elves, what with their ability to re-roll failed Psychology tests.

What ability to re roll failed psychology tests?

EvC
05-10-2007, 14:02
It's what they get when fighting Dark Elves now, rather than being immune to panic.


You're forgetting that the main source of summoning is the regular lvl2 Necromancer. He can only use three dice to to cast, which is very risky to use on the most effective 7+ summoning spell (2d6 skeletons or 2d6+2 zombies) if it becomes a 10+ spell.

So what can he do?

- Cast it anyway and accept that roughly half the attempts fail ... less succesful summonings and more dispel dice left to dispel the rest.

- Cast the weaker version at 6+ with more succes ... but only d6 or d6+1 fresh corpses to strengthen the line, half the number of before.

Drain Magic against VC will have a big impact.

The point is, if the VC player doesn't roll high enough to begin with, then the High Elf player is going to be able to dispel easily enough anyway. Roll 8 for the casting value and the High Elf player can dispel it on 2 dice 1/3 the time, on three dice, he's almost guaranteed a dispel.

Of course if the VC player is failing in the first place that doesn't help ;) At the end of the day, the VC players this will affect the most are those boring sods who make huge summon hordes and rely on casting IoN three or more times every magic phase. I've no problem with their crutch being weakened.

This is, obviously, assuming the VC player lets the High Elf player cast all the magic he wants in the first place. Generally speaking this will be the spell that the High Elf player will cast that magic phase (Unless he wants to cripple himself too), so a decent VC player will be able to take this into account.

T10
05-10-2007, 14:31
Predictable and utterly pointless attempt to insult me aside, how do you figure? Speed of Asuryan completely neuters every single Dark Elf melee troop that doesn't cause Impact Hits or have an extremely high armor save...

... and something about the Dark Elves' precious MSU.

If you don't want to turn your army into a single-purpose anti-High Elf army AND you want to improve your chances* of beating them, then you need to compromise.

Now, are you complaining about this because you can't adapt, or because you don't want to adapt?

-T10

*) And, quite frankly, without having seen the new HE army perfrom, we are only assuming that their strength has improved significantly.

Finnigan2004
05-10-2007, 14:39
*) And, quite frankly, without having seen the new HE army perfrom, we are only assuming that their strength has improved significantly.

I blame the media.

etancross
05-10-2007, 14:45
Orcs and Goblins have several abilities that compel them to head straight towards the nearest enemy (6 on the Animosity Table, Hand of Gork, WAAGH! Spell, etc), possibly charging them. Where before this wasn't a bad thing (Orc Boyz w/ Additional Choppas love charging poncy, squishy Elf Boyz), this could potentially send a lightly armored block of Greenskins right into the teeth of 16, hitting on 3, wounding on 4/5 attacks. Realistically, this is pretty much suicide. So while Fanatics, Chariots and War Machines are wholly unaffected, Orc and Goblin armies that like beating things the old fashioned way have not only lost most of the advantages of their extra movement abilities, but have also lost the only turn of combat in which they might have struck before their High Elven opponents.


THANK YOU!!!

this is what i have been preaching the WHOLE TIME!

zak
05-10-2007, 15:05
I don't agree with the fact that O+G players have to change their armies to cater for the High Elves. Most O+G's armies I have seen have all of the above elements in it to cater for the SM's. Normal Orc units should still go through Spear Elves easily as they will still require 5's to wound and will not modify their save. The Orcs will also have more units and will be able to set up favourable charges.

etancross
05-10-2007, 15:53
I don't agree with the fact that O+G players have to change their armies to cater for the High Elves. Most O+G's armies I have seen have all of the above elements in it to cater for the SM's. Normal Orc units should still go through Spear Elves easily as they will still require 5's to wound and will not modify their save. The Orcs will also have more units and will be able to set up favourable charges.

but not all our units are boys, our weaker units (Squigs, squighoppers, spider riders etc) tatics will HAVE to be changed now... before i would "Spin the wheel" and i would charge some spiderriders into spearmen but now i would be more apt to try to shoot and try a bait and switch and flee with the SR's to lure the spearmen into a place where my boyz, big'uns, etc would deal with them.

Chiron
05-10-2007, 16:11
My goodness, a different tactic for a different army! :eek:

sephiroth87
05-10-2007, 16:18
Is having to change your tactics a bad thing? If you play a lot of local people, there's a local arms race going on at the same time that GW is changing stuff. If you constantly do the same thing over and over, people will slowly compensate for it using other units and different tactics. I have never seen the need to change things as a bad thing.

When the wood elf book came out, I got the crap beaten out of me a few times, then figured out that the terror causing treemen were eating me alive. I changed my paladin general to a lord to defend against terror tests and made him always carry the wyrmlance and always put Braziers on my bowmen.

I also started taking the errantry banner on the errant knights for the strength bonus and even started taking grail knights in the list for the immune to psych benefit. I changed my list around and found that it worked against every other opponent and stuff like the wyrmlance and braziers weren't crippling to take in an all comers list, even helping out in many cases.

I started using the wyrmlance against other opponents to fly to the side of a crossbow unit and flamethrow the whole bunch.

Out of the tactics that I learned from playing the wood elves, I learned to make a tighter army list and learned to play it better.

Updating your tactics and skills is not a bad thing.

Brother Ranz
05-10-2007, 18:46
If Drain Magic makes it difficult to summon undead, that is likely a good thing since the speed of Asur will gain HE nothing against the VC, at least nothing they did not have already.

I said this is mostly true for Orcs as well and someone offered a single result on the animosity table as a rebuttal? Does anyone really count on that result as part of their Orky strateegery?

Chiungalla
05-10-2007, 19:35
The point, that many of the dark elf and orc & goblin units are worthless against the new high elves isn't as good as it seems, if you take into account, that they aren't any good against many other armys as well.

If you field witch elves, executioners, great units of orc boys and such units, you will for sure know how worthless they are against cavalry.

The cavalry will charge and break the unit most of the time, even more so if they were grail knights or choosen chaos knights.

So you field them less often, if you will win, and rely more on chariots, cavalry, war machines and shooting infantry.

And if you field infantry that is to dangerous, you will face the problem, that the cavalry of your opponent will easily avoid them. And if your opponent plays a fast army, you will never see an close combat with them.

And that is still an option for all players against the new high elves.
If you can't shoot there infantry, avoid them.

zak
05-10-2007, 22:04
You can't really compare DE and O+G infantry in this way. The DE will suffer far more than the average Orc due to low armour save, but mostly due to being T3. O+G infantry will still be viable against the HE. DE on the other hand are toast. Any DE unit charging will be hit on 3's and wounded on 2's, with no save. Take into account the points cost of each model and things look far rosier in the green corner!

Heretic Burner
06-10-2007, 00:33
You would, of course, be wrong.

Leaving for the moment that O&G are in general a far weaker list than DE statistically against any army, you find that they are shredded by HE units and test on dreadful leadership. DE have the tremendous advantage of being far more highly mobile, indeed O&G are the very worst army in the game in the movement phase. So while a straight up fight is inadvisable for both armies (both being utterly crushed by HE's new broken units), DE have at least the option of playing points denial.

So yes, O&G suffer far more than DE against HE just like they do against pretty much all other armies.

Chiungalla
06-10-2007, 05:33
You can't really compare DE and O+G infantry in this way. The DE will suffer far more than the average Orc due to low armour save, but mostly due to being T3.

The orcs will suffer the same casulties as the dark elves, because of lower weaponskill. The most cavalryunits charging will have weaponskill 4 or 5, which makes a big difference if you have weaponskill 3 or 5.

Edit:
In average there will be 2,7 attacks of a WS 4 strengh 5 (with lances) cavalry needed, to kill one orc with 4+ armor.
But only 2,4 attacks vs. witch elves.
If you take orcs with worse armor then 4+, you will be at in average 2,25 attacks needed per kill.

So both will nearly suffer the same amount damage.

yabbadabba
06-10-2007, 11:07
I blame the media.

I blame the parents.

I'm out of this discussion. With no evidence, no army book and no playtesting this is turning into a playground squabble.

T10
06-10-2007, 12:23
Agreed!

: Throws sand at yabbadabba :

-T10

Finnigan2004
06-10-2007, 15:23
I blame the parents.

I'm out of this discussion. With no evidence, no army book and no playtesting this is turning into a playground squabble.

Can I change mine to blaming the parents and the media? Especially parents who are members of the media. Yeah, that's it. I'm out too, but before I leave, one last thing. If you are really worried about the new swordmasters go out and buy yourself two stegadons. They are big, *******' chariots with bolt throwers and skinks with javelins. They should cover all of your swordmaster killing bases. Oh, and they are big, cool dinosaurs too.

zak
06-10-2007, 18:21
Agree totally. Now if only GW would allow them in the DE army!!!