PDA

View Full Version : Possible to do Tzeentch mortals without getting hammered on comp?



Finnigan2004
29-09-2007, 16:44
I am making an army that is model driven, but I would like to use Tzeentch rules. I could use khorne rules for my models, but I already have a khornate army and am getting a little tired of playing khorne. Toward this end, I'm writing to find out if people think that it is possible to do an army of Tzeentch mortals (led by a daemon prince-- I made a cool conversion and... anyhow) that would be fun for opponents to play against? Also, is it possible to make up a Tzeentch army that will not get pummelled in army composition scores? I understand that many people in Vancouver do not like playing against magic heavy armies, so I realize that this might not be possible.

If it helps, the units that I would like to include are my daemon prince (big werewolf), two champions on daemonic mounts (one stag and one polar bear), chaos knights (werewolves on boars-- used to be savage orcs), chaos warriors (werewolves with two weapons and shields on their backs-- used to be regular orcs), and horrors (a unit of Mordheim hounds that will be painted to look ghostly). I can field most chaos units with the list (I have a shaggoth polar bear, a chariot, etc.-- I just listed the cooler ones that I would like to field above). Everything is GW, so that I can field it in tournaments. Before you judge how I spend my time, you should know that I have no T.V. and my wife paints warhammer stuff too (meaning she's o.k. with how I spend my time). If we had cable, I would be spending way too much time watching space and cheering for my beloved Denver Broncos like everyone else in the civilized world (I figure they're one year out from the super bowl).

Anyhow, I've finished the models and am starting to paint, so there is no rush on making the list up-- it will take me about six months I think (ready for next year's West Coast Mayhem anyhow). I suppose that I would also consider a slaanesh list, but I really hate Nurgle so he is probably out. Thanks for any suggestions.

Nineswords
29-09-2007, 16:47
I don't think anyone on here is going to comment on how you choose to spend your time mate! As for the lists, Tzeentch Mortals are great. I think the Werewolf theme is pretty cool and I think you should run with it. I think chucking in some really big wolves too (chaos spawn) would look great. As for fluff, check out the entries for Lord Kaldour.

grickherder
29-09-2007, 18:18
I think that you've got an uphill battle. Tzeentch is the chaos god of magic and everything that takes his mark in the army book gives you more magic power. I don't think there's a way around taking Tzeentch and having lots of magic. Tzeentch is also the weakest when it comes to psychology rules, so you've got to have something to make up for it. Taking Tzeentch and worrying about players who don't like magic is like taking Wood Elves and worrying about players who don't like shooting or skirmishers. Who cares about comp? If you trash your opponents and they need to tell themselves it was because you had so much magic, that's their hang up. If they trash you and still think there's something wrong with the army then that's still their hang up.

MarcoPollo
29-09-2007, 19:10
You will probably get a little hammer on comp if you PD exceed 10 for any game, with any army. But, it depends on what you want.

If you are in a tourney, you can't really count on what people will say about your comp. If you have a tzeetch build of 14PD and you play against a Tooled up slann mage army, then you will probably both be on the same page and score each other equally. But if you play a well balanced combat dark elf army, then there may be some whining.

If you have the Tzeetch army of 14 pd in a tourney, then you better have the best painted force, be nicer than a your grandma on mothers day, and win every game to get near the top spot.

Rioghan Murchadha
05-10-2007, 05:24
Yeah.. for some reason people here turn into whining toddlers when confronted by the most random, luck based aspect of the game. Despite the lore of Tzeentch being the worst of the lot in the chaos book, despite the mark of tzeentch costing an arm, a leg, and a kidney on characters, despite the mark not doing ANYTHING for the unit you put it on, and despite the fact that in 7th edition, it's much easier for your characters to nuke themselves into oblivion.

Somehow, these same people don't whine about any stupid builds that revolve around predictable occurrences such as static CR, or shooting the crap out of people.

I run a pure Beasts of Tzeentch army. 12pd 7dd, I rarely put a dent in anything with magic since the few decent LoT spells are very short range, and I'd typically rather be in combat. People still complain.

Stormtrooper
05-10-2007, 05:53
Tzeentchian mortal armies are cool, try a lord and an exalted as your only characters (to lessen the PD impact). - try to keep that lord off of a dragon though as you'll get battered for it! but remember he's going to need to be mobile to get any use of his short ranged (and more powerful) spells.

ps. don't forget the lords a CC MONSTER, and if he gets Orange fire off before the combat - your opponent can kiss his unit goodbye.

pps. also try to waste any enemy spell chuckers asap. Rule the Phase.

W0lf
05-10-2007, 20:53
people complain about my 14Pd dice list with the staff of change and a unit of chosen of both types.

I look at their lists and what do i see:

A 2nd edition slaan army
2 skaven armys with 12-14 pd and all the 2d6 s5 in the world, plus a bell
A dwarf army with slayers, ironbreakers, hammerers and a anvil
A brettonian army (need i say more)
2 Tomb king armies with 2 LP, 1HLP and a casket
A orc army with 35 Bos and Grimgor
A wood elf army with all the shooting in the world

So you see... fight fire with fire, if that fails.. try green fre, or blue fire... indigo fire is fun..

Finnigan2004
06-10-2007, 03:14
So do you find that this is the case everywhere in Vancouver Rioghan? I wonder sometimes why there is such a dislike of magic. It seems like literally anything over 8 power dice gets people tied in knots-- even if your build is not particularly strong.

MarcoPollo
06-10-2007, 04:49
I personally think that Tzeetch is a quite a well rounded lore/mark. It has shootting, support, and tricks. And with a few blocks of horrors, you can set up a magical "gun-line" that can rip it up.

As for Vancouver, I find that people here respect balanced lists. We have one player that uses a slann 2nd gen and it just pisses people off. Such a lack of creativity really.

grickherder
06-10-2007, 04:58
I fail to see how choosing something that is in the army list is a lack of creativity. You pay the points for the ability to cast in the magic phase, just like people pay points to dominate shooting or shock cavalry attacks. I guess some people want what? For people to play with a subset of the rules and lists rather than playing the actual game?

W0lf
06-10-2007, 08:17
magic is the best phase of the game!

Hence i make the best use..

mistformsquirrel
06-10-2007, 08:19
Wait... 14 power dice is 'cheese'?

When I was setting up my list, thats what people highly suggested I try to get to <-.->; Please please do not tell me that I've somehow wound up with a list thats just going to disgruntle people... cause frankly I really like how its turned out and I'm just about to begin painting...

W0lf
06-10-2007, 08:29
dude dw. I have a 14 power dice list.

Its fun and people really dont understand that Tzeentch magic is rarely ever game-winning.

Chosen knights however are...

mistformsquirrel
06-10-2007, 10:32
>.>; I have 5 of those too...

But they're Tzeentch marked, so their psychology is... uhm... well its Ld8 and thats it. (literally everything in my list that can be marked, is marked) >.>;

Uhh... well if it makes them feel better <,< most of my army is Warriors! <,<

squiggoth
06-10-2007, 10:52
is it possible to make up a Tzeentch army that will not get pummelled in army composition scores? I understand that many people in Vancouver do not like playing against magic heavy armies, so I realize that this might not be possible.

Well, Tzeentch armies with loads of Power Dice aren't automatically cheesy, no matter what people say. The Lore of Tzeentch is far too random to be a gamewinner all by itself. What most people hate about Mortal Tzeentch armies is the Lord with the Golden Eye and Staff on Dragon - a big chunk of almost invincible muscle.

You describe units such as Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch, Shaggoths and Horrors in your army, all of which are considered average to sub-par. In a normal gaming environment (where people actually use Chaos Warriors and Imperial Halbediers and such) a list like that will be a good one to play with and against, in a no-holds-barred Tournament style game you'll be having a hard time but you'll be getting a high comp score.



I really hate Nurgle

Oi!!! :eek:
At least my armies don't worship a big blue chicken. :p

mistformsquirrel
06-10-2007, 10:55
Oi!!! :eek:
At least my armies don't worship a big blue chicken. :p

*ahem* MAGIC chicken to you! >.>

squiggoth
06-10-2007, 11:18
And they come in yellows as well! Go Tzeentch! :p

http://www.iselinge.nl/scholenplein/Cyberwinkel/werkbladenstudenten/34_algemeen_sesamstraat3_bestanden/image009.jpg

CaptScott
06-10-2007, 12:02
Tzeentch magic not powerful!!? Are we still talking about the lore that can make a unit attack itself, turn them into horrors and unleash potential strength 7 magic missiles!

Now back to comp scores, well ... having potentially nearly 1300 points wrapped up in four models (characters and shaggoth) is going to raise some eyebrows. All I can say is try and minimise spending on these models (i.e. don't take Tzeentch marks for all of them). This will also reduce your magic potential which will help with your score.

Whether or not such an army deserves a low comp score is annother issue entirely - in my opinion all comp scores should be issued after the battle and should only be based upon abuse of the rules/lists.

Unclejo
06-10-2007, 13:31
Conversely, the Tzeentch lore can cause a single S1 hit. But the randomess factor doesn't matter, because every Tzeentch player uses loaded dice, never miscasts and always always always gets his spells off, wiping out multiple armies per turn.

One game, I rolled 27 on three dice to cast Mauve Fire of Tzeentch, shattering the mind of my opponent and cracking the very skein of reality. Unfortunately, my Chaos Warriors then broke from combat and I lost the game.

Finnigan2004
06-10-2007, 14:01
As for Vancouver, I find that people here respect balanced lists. We have one player that uses a slann 2nd gen and it just pisses people off. Such a lack of creativity really.


I think that I have to respectfully disagree on both of these points, although I think that I know what you mean by them. Having played in quite a few tournaments over the last year, both in Vancouver and in the interior, I must say that I think that lists in Vancouver generally lack creativity (and often balance). This is most definitely not a comment on players in Vancouer who are generally great people and many of whom are also excellent players.

One tournament that I played in had eight players and featured a very tough wood elf army, an army with three regiments of chaos knights (khornate) (how am I going to get off any spells without ten dice, if he has nine dispel dice?), an army of all brettonian knights, some tough wood elves, a couple fast lizard man lists, and some high elves with lots of chariots and cavalry. To me, the bias is not necessarily away from tough armies, but against certain types of builds.

On the comment about the slaan, I'm not too sure why using that character would be a problem. Would people have the same problem with a tooled up khornate daemon prince? In my experience no, most players don't mind as long as magic is absent (I use one quite often). He could most certainly have a list involving such a model that was cheesy, but I guess I just do not get how that one model makes it so. I realize that there are some models that do change the entire game on their own, such as a Tzeentch dragon, but I do not see the same impact from the slaan.

I guess that my theory on the way games go in Vancouver is that people dislike the random element that magic presents, but I only travel there and do not have the opportunity to talk to the people that I play with in the stores as often as residents might. Am I way off on this guess guys or is this probably fair (mostly I'm asking Marco and Rioghan I guess)? It's just an impression that I get from talking to people during games. The reason that I ask is that I do like to present a fun and challenging game for my opponents, and I can as easily call my werewolves Khornate or Slaaneshi chaos warrior (or dryads-- then we don't need to even worry about comp scores ;)) when I play in Vancouver if that would be more accepted (I actually think that both of these lists are stronger overall too, but I so like magic).

TimGauthier
06-10-2007, 15:59
if they dont like magic i suggest they try 40k. :| the magic in my very very very limited opinion makes the game alot more interesting. Random spices EVERYTHING up. see the giants are funny thread ;).

Rioghan Murchadha
07-10-2007, 02:55
Well, for myself, I typically play at the Richmond GW, or with my gaming group. At Richmond, nobody complains about magic, but then, most of the fantasy players are either fairly new, and don't care, or old enough to remember the good old days of 4th edition or earlier, and so also don't care.

It's when you hit the places like Metrotown, and such where there is more of a collection of what I call 'mid range' vets, who started with 5th or 6th edition, or the guys who got hosed by Vampire Lords in 3rd ed ;), where you get the bias against magic. It really seems that GW itself is trying to instill this bias in people with the newer editions.

I didn't say that Tzeentch was a horrible lore, just that it was worse than Nurgle and Slannesh. Mainly because of the randomness, and short range, along with lack of subtle support magic. While a ward save for your units is nice, you have to keep a character with them to get it. Rerolling is also nice, but is very easy to dispel in subsequent magic phases. The major offensive spells also suffer from quite short ranges, and with the inability to hide characters within 5" of a unit in this edition, it's hard to get them close enough for certain spells without getting them shot up or, if in a unit, charged.

In all, magic, and the fantasy races, are entirely the only reasons I play WFB. There are certainly better rulesets out there, but none that encompass army scale engagements in a fantasy setting. Do away with magic, and heroic characters, and you may as well play historicals, or napoleonics or somesuch.

MarcoPollo
07-10-2007, 05:19
I play out of North Vancouver at Park Royal. It is a smaller club with about 8 full time regular players, and a handful of part time enthusiasts. But the club is quality. I won the best overall in the last mayhem tournament, and another from our club won best general.

I know a few players that are magic heavy and they do fine. One is a lizzie with 2nd gen slann and another is a VC player. But, judging from the comp scores 5-9 powerdice is common and 10 or more is considered cheese. The smellier the cheese the higher you go.

Personally I think tzeetch is a great support lore. Slaanesh is probably the most game-winning though.

But, I am not privy to the entire city of vancouver's taste. But from reading these forums for about 3 years, comp starts to take a hit above 10 pd.

Rioghan Murchadha
07-10-2007, 06:09
I play out of North Vancouver at Park Royal. It is a smaller club with about 8 full time regular players, and a handful of part time enthusiasts. But the club is quality. I won the best overall in the last mayhem tournament, and another from our club won best general.

I know a few players that are magic heavy and they do fine. One is a lizzie with 2nd gen slann and another is a VC player. But, judging from the comp scores 5-9 powerdice is common and 10 or more is considered cheese. The smellier the cheese the higher you go.

Personally I think tzeetch is a great support lore. Slaanesh is probably the most game-winning though.

But, I am not privy to the entire city of vancouver's taste. But from reading these forums for about 3 years, comp starts to take a hit above 10 pd.

Whatever you do, don't eat at Earls Tin Palace... I work for the company that delivers their food.. The kitchen is about the most disgusting place on earth. :D

That aside.. Tzeentch IS a good support lore, but when you go for a pure Tzeentch army as the OP was suggesting, that's all you get, is support. My argument is that 12, 14, whatever PD in a Tzeentch army is not cheese. Same amount of PD in a list capable of mixing lores, or that uses a lore with more game breaking spells, then yeah, I can see a complaint.

BigRob
07-10-2007, 08:08
To be honest, I'd mark down the comp score on a Tzeentch army that did not have Magic in it, Tzeentch is all about magic.

They are no worse than Lizardmen, High Elves or Skaven for excessive powerdice and spells. You just have to deal with it. Magic Resistance items on key units, dispel scrolls and your dispel dice can all work towards stopping the important spells while you rip into the soft centre of the army (or hit his lord with a great cannon)

squiggoth
07-10-2007, 10:28
To be honest, I'd mark down the comp score on a Tzeentch army that did not have Magic in it, Tzeentch is all about magic.

Since every Tzeentch is either a wizard or a power dice generator, it would be kind of hard to find Magic-less Tzeentch armies. ;)