PDA

View Full Version : Apocalypse Great money spinner!



chrismay101
29-09-2007, 17:59
What a great way of GW to make some big money release a supplement that requires at least a 3000 point army.

what do other people think?

utrotaren
29-09-2007, 18:12
that it is up to you if you want to spend more money. I think it one of the best thing they have do in years. 40K never been so cheap as now.

alexh
29-09-2007, 18:15
What a great way of GW to make some big money release a supplement that requires at least a 3000 point army.

what do other people think?

Not necessarily, IIRC, the only stipulation is at least 3000 points per side so you could ally your 1500 points with a friend if you don't want to buy more stuff.

boogle
29-09-2007, 18:20
As a 17 year veteran, all i'll say is 'About Time!!'

twj
29-09-2007, 18:28
Another thread on why apocalypse proves GW is evil and wants to eat your children.

Pointless

It is a supplement and is therefore OPTIONAL!

Bookwrak
29-09-2007, 18:36
What a great way of GW to make some big money release a supplement that requires at least a 3000 point army.

what do other people think?

I think that since a lot of people already have armies with more than 3000 points, 'requiring' an army to be at least 3000 points isn't the big cash grab some people want to make it out to be.

AmBlam
29-09-2007, 18:42
There's no doubt GW did this because they wanted/needed to make more money. What is worrying is that this was the limit of thier imagination and given the recent chaos codex it seems that the oligarchy is killing what GW was founded on.

AmBlam
29-09-2007, 18:43
I wouldn't be suprised if they went under in time.

twj
29-09-2007, 18:47
There's no doubt GW did this because they wanted/needed to make more money. What is worrying is that this was the limit of thier imagination and given the recent chaos codex it seems that the oligarchy is killing what GW was founded on.


No offence, but why do actually play??

Surely you should enjoy the game rather than worrying about how the company is doing.

killa kan kaus
29-09-2007, 19:11
twj is right

SonofUltramar
29-09-2007, 19:20
What a great way of GW to make some big money release a supplement that requires at least a 3000 point army.

what do other people think?

So you are sitting at your computer and instead of reading one of the numerous threads devoted to Apocalypse you decided to start another pointless thread, i'm sorry but no one is putting a gun to your head and dragging you kicking and screaming to your local GW to buy more stuff. As has been said you can ally with a friend or put several of your own armies together to play:eek:

GW trying to make money, who knew they'd try such a devious ploy like that, how dare they! Wait a minute they're a company who is trying to do their best with the niche market they have, buy stuff or not but lets not go through this whole are GW just trying to survive in lean times, money grabbers or controversially trying to do something new which hobbyists will enjoy and they make money, win/win anyone?

Torga_DW
29-09-2007, 19:21
rabble! rabble rabble rabble!

trigger
29-09-2007, 19:35
moan moan moan
oi thats my job:evilgrin:

to make a point gw will go under sooner or later they are just to expensive 4 what they offer they no longer hold all the keys to wargaming
they dont make the best models anymore ither
admitedly they are nice and much better than i could do

the only problem 4 me is that no one has invented a wargaming patch to help you quit:wtf:

Torga_DW
29-09-2007, 19:37
I used to think that gw models were overpriced. So to be clever i went to a 'normal' hobby store to buy some kits to convert as chaosy tanks. Holy jesus christ. I will never again call gw overpriced.

PlasticFork
29-09-2007, 20:02
I would have thought that GW would have been through harder times than this.

Is it really as cheap as it has ever been? From what I've seen, things are either the same price as ever, or slightly more expensive.

Monospot
29-09-2007, 20:06
If GW fails to turn a profit long enough, they will have to fold as a company.

My "habit" and I do not wish for this to happen.

Grab for money? Maybe. Is that capitalism? Yup. Is that a bad thing? IMHO, nope.

RavenMorpheus
29-09-2007, 20:07
What a great way of GW to make some big money release a supplement that requires at least a 3000 point army.

what do other people think?


Totally agree - it seems to me that this hobby is heading up the road of football.

No-one can take part in the hobby because it costs a fortune to fund an army. Much in the same way that no-one can go to a football match these days cos all the seats are priced so that no-one but corporate people/reasonably wealthy season ticket holders get in.

I took a look at Apocalypse in this month's WD and my initial thoughts were this: I've got a 3-4k SM army I could take part in an Apocalypse game.

OMG it's taken me 10+ years to get my SM army to 3-4k points and I still need to buy Rhino to use as transports.

GW are aiming Apocalypse at people who have 500+/$500+ to spend a year on models, not the people who started the hobby who did it on a shoe-string.

While this is all good for GW I feel they are forgetting about the loyal less well off persons who enjoy, up till now anyway, the hobby.

I used to have some disposable income, I don't anymore because I have joined the "adult" world of bill paying.

Apocalypse is all well and good, it adds a new dimension to the game but GW need to remember who built their business, who have been supporting them for the last 30 years - the little gamer who does gaming on a budget, not those mega rich imo people who are here one day and gone the next cos they can't be bothered with the game.

PlasticFork
29-09-2007, 20:11
Apocalypse is all well and good, it adds a new dimension to the game but GW need to remember who built their business, who have been supporting them for the last 30 years - the little gamer who does gaming on a budget, not those mega rich imo people who are here one day and gone the next cos they can't be bothered with the game.

Are you trying to say that it's people who spend 400 over three years, as opposed to those who collect for a year, spend 500 then move on, who are giving GW its profit?

Ishtar
29-09-2007, 20:13
I think Apocalypse is great. From everything I've heard it sounds like a better way to play W40k. lol

Hopefully it can be played with armies smaller than 3000 pints, cause I dig the objective based rules. :)

alexh
29-09-2007, 20:15
GW are aiming Apocalypse at people who have 500+/$500+ to spend a year on models, not the people who started the hobby who did it on a shoe-string.


I disagree, GW are not just aiming Apocalypse at those people at all. They are aiming it at everyone who has 3000+ point armies.

RavenMorpheus
29-09-2007, 20:15
Are you trying to say that it's people who spend 400 over three years, as opposed to those who collect for a year, spend 500 then move on, who are giving GW its profit?

No but the long term gamers are those who are the foundation of the hobby.

GW seems to be aiming Apocalypse at people with a lot of disposable income and pricing out the "average" gamer imo.

Certainly people who spend 500+ in one year and then move on give GW profit, but it's the people who continually spend money, no matter how small an amount that keep GW afloat.


I disagree, GW are not just aiming Apocalypse at those people at all. They are aiming it at everyone who has 3000+ point armies.

Yeah of course, so as I have a 3000+ DA Army I can take part, but having said that I'll need to spend a huge amount of money on my CSM army to use it in an Apocalypse game if I wish to and my DA army is on foot and would not be viable in an Apocalypse game, I need to spend money on Rhino's or other transports.

Course me or anyone else having to spend 500 or so to build or improve an army doesn't mean GW are aiming at people with that sort of money does it?

I'm all for large games, and having the rules for them done by GW but don't price out the "average" game who doesn't have buckets full of cash to throw at the hobby.

Having said that maybe such people shouldn't be in the hobby, GW would certainly be happy and I'm sure much of the community here on Warseer would be glad to see the "less well off" gamers disappear - that's the impression I get anyway. :mad:

Lord_Magellan
29-09-2007, 20:17
I totally agree - people screaming "death to GW for making us pay for things!" is just laughably inane. I went on about this in another thread about the devil GW out to operate as an actual company and won't reiterate here. I fully expect a lock icon next to this thread in short order.

Never mind that GW is giving you certain breaks with apocalypse. Buy three vindicators for the price of two. Buy three land raiders for the price of two. If they were really about money above all things, they'd not be giving any kind of break like that, even short term.

What about a free codex in White Dwarf? Or summer campaigns, whatever their quality, which are not free to organize or run on their side of the fence.

Oh yes, baby eating GW. Evil GW. Corrupt GW. How dare they. New products! New game options! New possibilities! Oh, the humanity.

But really, you see this same "Greed! Greed! Greed!' accusation in every thread for every gaming company out there, certainly for all the forums I frequent. you'd just think people would be a bit more reasonable about how businesses and companies really operate.

Khornies & milk
29-09-2007, 20:19
I'm buying some of the cool stuff for Apoc, but not a ridiculous amount and not from GW, so they're not benefitting from me (well not 100% directly).
I will be playing Apoc. for the FUN of it, so good on GW for coming up with this supplement.

Bob5000
29-09-2007, 20:23
Possibly Its a way to give BOGOF discounts without admitting they are . Something that in my gaming memory GW dont do , 'devaluing' the product and all that .

Its a good thing for those wishing to get these discounts and have no intention of playing Apocalypse , which , lets be honest , is not going to be happening that often , ' normal 40K service will resume after the initial hype , and Apoc will be the expansion that gets played occasionally on special occasions . Its not a pick up game .

RavenMorpheus
29-09-2007, 20:25
I totally agree - people screaming "death to GW for making us pay for things!" is just laughably inane. I went on about this in another thread about the devil GW out to operate as an actual company and won't reiterate here. I fully expect a lock icon next to this thread in short order.

Never mind that GW is giving you certain breaks with apocalypse. Buy three vindicators for the price of two. Buy three land raiders for the price of two. If they were really about money above all things, they'd not be giving any kind of break like that, even short term.

What about a free codex in White Dwarf? Or summer campaigns, whatever their quality, which are not free to organize or run on their side of the fence.

Oh yes, baby eating GW. Evil GW. Corrupt GW. How dare they. New products! New game options! New possibilities! Oh, the humanity.

But really, you see this same "Greed! Greed! Greed!' accusation in every thread for every gaming company out there, certainly for all the forums I frequent. you'd just think people would be a bit more reasonable about how businesses and companies really operate.

Your points are well noted, however, and and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, GW started out as a "hobbyist" company there to support the hobby and the people that take part in it - these days like every other company in the world all they seem to see are the /$ signs.

Capitlism is not great when your at the bottom of the food chain.

For myself I like the idea of apocalypse, as I think I put in my previous post, it allows me to use my full DA army whether I buy the Rhino's or not, I have up until now been limited to using only a portion of it per game.

I can't afford at the moment to buy into it, but if it lasts a few years and doesn't get scrapped who knows, I might get a pay rise and be able to invest in a copy of the rules.

And the OP did ask for views on the subject and even he posed the question of GW using it as a cash-cow.

alexh
29-09-2007, 20:27
I have been playing 40k for 4 years now (the game still hasn't finished) and over that time, I have amassed quite a large collecton. It's fair to say that on a number of occasions I have bought in bulk but mostly it has been a few blisters or a squad box now and then. Having the opportunity, now, to use everything I own in one game is great and I agree with everyone else who said - if you don't like it, don't play it - it is, after all, a supplement to the rules not a replacement.

EDIT: I must confess to buying 3 Baneblades today!!!

twj
29-09-2007, 20:29
Capitlism is not great when your at the bottom of the food chain.

LOL!! No offence mate, but have you ever studied politics/economics???

PlasticFork
29-09-2007, 20:30
Course me or anyone else having to spend 500 or so to build or improve an army doesn't mean GW are aiming at people with that sort of money does it?

I'm all for large games, and having the rules for them done by GW but don't price out the "average" game who doesn't have buckets full of cash to throw at the hobby.

Having said that maybe such people shouldn't be in the hobby, GW would certainly be happy and I'm sure much of the community here on Warseer would be glad to see the "less well off" gamers disappear - that's the impression I get anyway. :mad:

You're creating a victim out of yourself here. A big army is going to cost a lot of money, it's a fact of life. GW do not have cloning vats in which they can churn out millions upon millions of models, it all costs money.

GW has been supporting the small-time gamer for years. From what I remember, armies became unwieldy above 2,000 points, and such army size was a rarity anyway. I think it's good news that there seems to be demand for large scale battle rules.

What GW have done here have focussed on expanding into previously untouched ground. From what I read in White Dwarf, this supplement is entirely designed as just for fun, and isn't an attempt to detract from the mainstay rules. It actually says that an Apocalypse battle is a special event, and not your day-to-day sort of battle.

RavenMorpheus
29-09-2007, 20:35
LOL!! No offence mate, but have you ever studied politics/economics???


No I haven't, have you?



You're creating a victim out of yourself here. A big army is going to cost a lot of money, it's a fact of life. GW do not have cloning vats in which they can churn out millions upon millions of models, it all costs money.

GW has been supporting the small-time gamer for years. From what I remember, armies became unwieldy above 2,000 points, and such army size was a rarity anyway. I think it's good news that there seems to be demand for large scale battle rules.

What GW have done here have focussed on expanding into previously untouched ground. From what I read in White Dwarf, this supplement is entirely designed as just for fun, and isn't an attempt to detract from the mainstay rules. It actually says that an Apocalypse battle is a special event, and not your day-to-day sort of battle.

End of my input into this debate - I don't think GW are supporting the "average" gamer out there anymore, they're aiming the hobby at people who are "well off" compared to the likes of myself who have been in the hobby for 15+ years and are now beginning to struggle to keep up because of the rising costs.

These days I don't spend my money on the "hobby" anyway, if I have a spare 30 I go buy a few second hand video games, dvd's and other such forms of entertainment, I get more bang for my bucks that way these days.

Having said that I need to get the CSM codex so I can use my CSM army so I'll be making that purchase but that's only 12 not 500 for an entire army or ancillary bits/pieces to add to an army to use in the latest "expansion" GW have come up with and is currently gearing the hobby towards.

alexh
29-09-2007, 20:36
my DA army is on foot and would not be viable in an Apocalypse game, I need to spend money on Rhino's or other transports.

Armies set up minimum 12" apart in Apocalypse so you don't need any transports.

Lord_Magellan
29-09-2007, 20:37
Capitlism is not great when your at the bottom of the food chain.

Well, who can argue that? Touche there at least.

sulla
29-09-2007, 20:38
What a great way of GW to make some big money release a supplement that requires at least a 3000 point army.

what do other people think?

I think it's awesome that there's a way for my ordo xenos strike force to fight alongside their Blood Axe hirelings... :evilgrin:

RavenMorpheus
29-09-2007, 20:39
Armies set up minimum 12" apart in Apocalypse so you don't need any transports.

Hmm well that's good , at least my DA army can be used.

DOH, my last post was supposed to be my last post on this topic :(

twj
29-09-2007, 20:39
No I haven't, have you?



I just finished a degree in International Politics... Anyway to be brief (I don't want to bore anyone) there are far worse systems out there then capitalism, I doubt you would have seen GW appear and then thrive in any other economic environment...

RavenMorpheus
29-09-2007, 20:40
I just finished a degree in International Politics... Anyway to be brief (I don't want to bore anyone) there are far worse systems out there then capitalism, I doubt you would have seen GW appear and then thrive in any other economic environment...


Yeah yeah, communism, dicatorships etc. we all know about that.

I also doubt very much that when GW started in 1975 that if it had been started in Russia for example that GW would have survived, it'd have been crushed as some sort of capitalist citizen subversing hobby, and Apocalypse would never have seen the light of day then. :rolleyes:

alexh
29-09-2007, 20:44
Hmm well that's good , at least my DA army can be used.

DOH, my last post was supposed to be my last post on this topic :(

Looks like I sucked you back in there lol.

twj
29-09-2007, 20:46
Yeah yeah, communism, dicatorships etc. we all know about that.

I also doubt very much that when GW started in 1975 that if it had been started in Russia for example that GW would have survived, it'd have been crushed as some sort of capitalist citizen subversing hobby, and Apocalypse would never have seen the light of day then. :rolleyes:

Seriously, that is one of the funniest things I've read today!

Anyway, I'm bored now, can we all agree that this thread is going nowhere. Hopefully someone will lock it...

Orbital
29-09-2007, 21:11
What a great way of GW to make some big money release a supplement that requires at least a 3000 point army.

what do other people think?


I disagree, GW are not just aiming Apocalypse at those people at all. They are aiming it at everyone who has 3000+ point armies.

Vets actually make up about 5%-10% of the GW market, if that. The typical GW patron stays with the hobby for 18 months and then moves on. Vets would like to think that they make up the bulk of GW's cash intake, but the truth is that the average vet spends approximately $20 a month. These are figures I got from a GW manager which were given to him at a manager's meeting. The idea that a high-profile supplement like Apocalypse was created for the sake of the vets (who don't spend that much at GW on a monthly basis) with the idea that they DON'T have to buy anything is a probably unrealistic. To think that Apocalypse is meant to bring more people to the hobby and make them spend cash bulking their armies up to Apoc-sizes is a bit more believable.


40K never been so cheap as now.
I have no idea why you think that. Can you explain?

Lunk
29-09-2007, 21:37
Well, its cheap in bulk. If you buy the SM company box set, it would be a lot cheaper than buying 100 SM seperate. I think the 10 Leman Russ set is very cheap per Russ.

I just wonder how long these box sets are for sale. Your average gamer isn't going to have the cash right away to buy this stuff. And your average vet will have way too many models, and won't need to buy a big box set. I easily have 4-5000 points in chaos troops, and easily have 1000 or so in vehicles. But, I've been playing since the day second edition was released, and have collected various chaos armies over the years. Also have 2000 points of guard, and about 2000 point of dark eldar, most of them unassembled.

GW is a company out to make money, but not from the vets, and if the big box sets are only a splash release, not from the 90% of the newer players. Apoc looks fun though. I just don't understand GW's marketing, unless the big box sets are a permanent release.

Lunk

RavenMorpheus
29-09-2007, 21:45
GW is a company out to make money, but not from the vets, and if the big box sets are only a splash release, not from the 90% of the newer players. Apoc looks fun though. I just don't understand GW's marketing, unless the big box sets are a permanent release.

Lunk

If they're not a permanent release Apocalypse will flop imo, I can't see the majority of people (the average gamer) paying the cash required to bulk out an army if they can't do it on the cheap, relatively speaking - and therein lies the problem with aiming at a "wealthier" subset of gamers.

But then even if GW make some money out of Apocalypse it will be a success as far as they are concerned, and they can always resurrect it at a later date when it's financially convenient to do so - much in the same way as they have recently done so with Mighty Empires.

spud75
29-09-2007, 22:35
Kill Team, Combat Patrol, Standard/Tournament 40K and Apocalypse.

No-one has said you need to start with a 3000pt army, yes GW needs to make money, but pick your level, play and stop moaning.

I started with WD132, couldn't afford large armies for a long time, now I have 6 3000pt 40K armies(getting larger:D) and 4 3000pt Fantasy armies and countless Specialist Games armies.

It takes time to build large armies, so get together with friends if you want to play large games and just enjoy the hobby.

TeddyC
29-09-2007, 22:35
ho ho ho... you little pessimist you!

Remember apocalypse is for those that want to play just a fun game... not be overly worried about FOCs and having enough points left after fielding your titan.

Lighten up. GWs been going down the pan for at least 6 or so years now. Just dont buy into their crap, keep buying the models and look into the new rules... just dont whinge about it

RexTalon
29-09-2007, 22:51
So you are sitting at your computer and instead of reading one of the numerous threads devoted to Apocalypse you decided to start another pointless thread, i'm sorry but no one is putting a gun to your head and dragging you kicking and screaming to your local GW to buy more stuff. As has been said you can ally with a friend or put several of your own armies together to play:eek:

GW trying to make money, who knew they'd try such a devious ploy like that, how dare they! Wait a minute they're a company who is trying to do their best with the niche market they have, buy stuff or not but lets not go through this whole are GW just trying to survive in lean times, money grabbers or controversially trying to do something new which hobbyists will enjoy and they make money, win/win anyone?
I agree with this guy entirely.
I am entirely sick of hearing people whine and complain about something THAT ISN'T EVEN ON THE ******* SHELF YET!!!!11!!!1ONEONEOMGWTFBBQ!!!!!!!

RexTalon
29-09-2007, 22:56
Anyway, I'm bored now, can we all agree that this thread is going nowhere. Hopefully someone will lock it...
Yes, now that your ever so important opinion has been read aloud, lets lock this and all other threads. In fact, after TWJ posts, there is no reason for anyone else in the entire world to have an opinion, so everyone just shut up.

I hate thread locking. Can you tell?:)

Orbital
29-09-2007, 23:30
Yes, now that your ever so important opinion has been read aloud, lets lock this and all other threads. In fact, after TWJ posts, there is no reason for anyone else in the entire world to have an opinion, so everyone just shut up.

I hate thread locking. Can you tell?:)

Sarcasm is a poor man's wit, Rex.

shin'keiro
30-09-2007, 00:00
What a great way of GW to make some big money release a supplement that requires at least a 3000 point army.

what do other people think?

Yes i think it's GREAT! funnily enough thats what companies do... try to make money - goodluck to them.

AmBlam
30-09-2007, 00:36
No offence, but why do actually play??

Surely you should enjoy the game rather than worrying about how the company is doing.

Are you a fanboy?
Why are you trying to infer I am worried about GW's future?

My motives for playing the game are sound and you cannot challenge them. You don't care as to why I play the game.

Count Sinister
30-09-2007, 15:50
Have to agree with PlasticFork, here. Apocalypse isn't replacing the 40k rules, it's a supplement. Most people will continue to play 1,500-2,000 point pick-up games most of the time, and as they build their army, they'll play the occasional apocalypse game.
A separate point here is that GW is not a club, although a lot of gamers tend to see it that way. It's a company, which happens to lie at the heart of a hobby, but in order for the hobby to survive, the company has to turn a profit. If we enjoy the game, then we have to be aware that if we want to keep playing it, we'll have to buy some models occasionally. Otherwise we'd just use cardboard counters. We don't, though, because we like the models. Because we like the models, we buy them. It seems like a pretty simple equation to me. For my part, I hope that GW keep going, and opening their games into unexplored areas to keep the hobby interesting. Does everthing they do appeal to everyone? No, of course not. But you don't have to collect every army, do you?

izandral
30-09-2007, 17:00
why does everyone think you need to get your army to 3000 + pts. everytime i read about apoc GW seems to encourage you to get with a lot of friends to play . So you get you 1500 pts army with your friend 1750 pts army and his other friend 2000pts army and fight it agains 2 or 3 other people at your local club.

seems rather simple , cheap and fun
and then for those who can afford it there's the new stuff allowed like titans and such

Colonel Deal
30-09-2007, 18:16
Izandral, AlexH and others have pointed it out several times. You don't need to have a full 3000+pts army for Apocalypse, as long as you have a couple of armies which will make it up when combined or some friends to play with.

I think Apocalypse is looking great and will be playing a few games when I get the chance. I've already got 5000pts of Orks and 4000pts of Iron Warriors and its a good excuse to bulk up my IG as well. People might claim that GW is not aiming Apocalypse at vets, but that doesn't mean we don't benefit from it.

Easy E
30-09-2007, 18:25
Hopefully it can be played with armies smaller than 3000 pints, cause I dig the objective based rules. :)

You can make it do whatever you what it to do, your the player.

I intend to implement many Apoc rules into my smaller games. I see no reason at this point why it won't be scaleable. You won't be able to use the detachments and formations, but I don't see why you couldn't use the deployment or objective rules in everyday 40K.

stonefox
30-09-2007, 18:49
I'm just using a single character with a ****-ton of special abilities to eat up the points. Apocalypse doesn't force you to use huge armies, and if you really want to stick it to the GW man, do the same and play apocalypse with a few dudes with lots of orbital bombardment.

IJW
30-09-2007, 18:51
And watch as a few carefully-placed Strength D weapons kill them all... ;)

On a more serious note, victory conditions in Apocalypse are based purely on holding objectives, so any army made up of ICs is going to automatically lose unless you make up special rules with your opponent.

Lost Primarch
30-09-2007, 18:53
Whilst I don't see it as a money spinner for GW themselves, there are elements that make FW models more desirable. Titans, random superheavies (other than Baneblade) and flyers are all made by Forgeworld, and I think a lot of people will think they'll 'need' to have some of these things (or at least want them really badly).

So a big boost to Forgeworld methinks - not necessarily a bad thing though.

RavenMorpheus
30-09-2007, 18:56
If we enjoy the game, then we have to be aware that if we want to keep playing it, we'll have to buy some models occasionally. Otherwise we'd just use cardboard counters. We don't, though, because we like the models. Because we like the models, we buy them. It seems like a pretty simple equation to me.

Good point but there is a limit to how much the average gamer will pay for models and I think GW is fast reaching that limit.

I don't go out and buy a collection of Ferraris because they are way beyond my budget, much can be said of collecting an army these days. GW are putting off new gamers imo because they see the game requires a lot of models, especially vehicles when GW are pushing stuff like Apocalypse and then they see the price tags (or codes and then get to the till) and go "sorry way out of my budget".

It doesn't help to aim at "johnny rich parents" all the time, a lot of the people interested in the hobby don't have that sort of disposable income and therefore don't take up the hobby.

I'm just glad that I have a 3-4k+ DA army that I've built up over the last 10 years, even if the models could do with replacing with the newer ones, at least I have the option of playing a large game like Apocalypse, which if you look at all the box sets and ads for it GW are pushing it as a large-size army game.

Someone who is just entering the hobby will be seriously put off imo unless they have a lot of disposable income which imo the average gamer doesn't.

But then elitist sports and hobbies always aim for the big-bucks customers, sod the average person who is really into the hobby as well. :(

Hulkster
30-09-2007, 18:57
Sarcasm is a poor man's wit, Rex.

its still wit though isnt it

I think Apocalypse is going to be a lot of fun, I am glad GW made this supplement and I look forward to playing it a lot. (most of my games recently have been 3000pts)

I understand that this will be rare for most people but most people at my club either have more than 3000pts or they join up together to play big battles.

Madfool2
30-09-2007, 19:13
I thought it would be fun, played it today and didn't enjoy it much, but it is only an optional rule set, so there isn't a problem really.

To be honest, the Apocalypse box sets can do WONDERS for regular 40k armies on the savings front.

TYRANOODLE
30-09-2007, 19:39
Just heavily tool up your existing models so they reach 3000 points.

RavenMorpheus
30-09-2007, 19:42
Just heavily tool up your existing models so they reach 3000 points.

Ah now that's another problem with Apocalypse, some of the new codices *cough* Eldar *cough* Dark Angels *cough* don't really let you "tool" up your characters/troops to soak up points. Hence the reason people need to buy more models :rolleyes:

Vic
30-09-2007, 19:43
meh, who cares either way? just have F-U-N.

dave38x
30-09-2007, 21:06
A money spinner perhaps, but remember, all hobbies require serious investment in cash. I have been spending small amounts every month for the past year. my main growth times are birthday and christmas, when people buy me stuff.

the company is slowly, like a titan being swarmed by rippers, going down and making no profit. i think the last thing we all want is to see the end of GW. unless you sculpt all of your models. aha, but wait, where would you get putty from? somewhere else i suppose. apocalypse is fun, as was demonstrated when i deployed 1000 pts of nids into the middle of an eldar/marine conflict. the resulting feast was immense, as i layed about with all i had at the nearest models. however, i prefer the small, strategical game that can be done in two hours, then played again, with a refinement in strategy.

apocalypse is good imho, but i prefer FW rules for aircraft. i will pick and mix methinks :D

Ishtar
03-10-2007, 00:55
You can make it do whatever you what it to do, your the player. Totally, but I'm not the only player and I don't have/want enough stuff for solo-gaming. Most people that play GW games seem to have a fetish for playing inside the box. It's not like people weren't playing big games before. That's why I'm so stoked about Apolcalypse - fans will accept rules that GW publishes when they won't touch the same rules that people come up with on their own!


I intend to implement many Apoc rules into my smaller games. I see no reason at this point why it won't be scaleable. You won't be able to use the detachments and formations, but I don't see why you couldn't use the deployment or objective rules in everyday 40K. Yup. Should be pretty interesting to see how they scale. :)

Ravenous
03-10-2007, 01:00
Best way to play apocalypse.

Buy 6 baneblades. Its the same price as a normal army.

Then your game is quick and easy.

100s infantry just seem to suck compared to 6 10inch templates that blow apart everything (even terrian on 4+!).

IJW
03-10-2007, 01:24
10" blasts? Yes.
Strength D and/or destroying terrain? No.

Korvos
03-10-2007, 04:57
100 infantry seems meh... until you give them all bodies over bullets and sustained assault :D

Blackwolf
03-10-2007, 05:34
All I can say is lets get it on. Me and my gameing buddies have been waiting for this to happen since we started playing 40k.

Khaine's Fury
03-10-2007, 07:03
It's definately a money-spinner for GW and FW...no doubt about that. I can also understand where the skeptics are coming from because the hobby has become more expensive and if you don't want to be left out of the fun with Apoc, you'll need to get more stuff in many cases....even worse, if you want to be able to compete, well that means a trip to FW and splashing serious cash there.
Apoc will be a lot of fun, i don't doubt that and i'm buying into it....literally!! But i can see the monetary side to this, and it's all well and good people like Jervis Johnson appearing in WD like a beneficent old uncle who's gifting us all these new models and rules, freeing us all from the shackles of tired old 40k, but in reality, none of this stuff is free, and it's a pretty large outlay for many. The bottom line with GW has been profit over play for some years now and if you're ignoring that then you need a couple of shots of reality, urgently.
They're in the business of money-making, but as someone said, it is a win-win situation because Apoc looks like a fun expansion. My thoughts are for the guys who get left behind because the hobby prices them out of the game.....if you have a great job, or mommy and daddy can throw handfulls of wonga at you then fine, congrats to you, but many gamers out there will struggle to make titan-wielding, flyer-waving Apocalypse a reality for them.

Darkseer
03-10-2007, 07:41
It's a great money spinner yes, but why not just team your army up with your friend's army?

chaospantz
03-10-2007, 08:04
I dont know if anyone has already posted this since i only read the first page but im wondering what people are going to do with all there extra stuff after the campaign is done. For example the IG have a new box of 10 leman russ tanks comming out. It sound cool to me but after you build your IG force of all tanks for Apocalypse then what. I dont see to many tournaments down the road where they say go ahead and throw out the force building chart. And then your stuck with a crazy amount of extra stuff.

IJW
03-10-2007, 08:17
It's not a campaign, it's an expansion that you can keep playing for as long as you wish. And there's always eBay...

Khaine's Fury
03-10-2007, 08:19
Well ChaosPantz, it's not so much a campaign (circa Eye of Terror, armageddon), more of another parallel gaming system related to 40k, and as such, is ongoing. Once October is out of the way, there's no need to suddenly lob the new stuff you bought for Apoc, since it will be ongoing and last and last...in my opinion anyway...;)

Maybe we'll see a few Apoc-only tournaments cropping up which will be fantastic team-up games.....at any rate, it's not going away too soon, GW and FW marketing guys will see to that!!:D

Brother Loki
03-10-2007, 11:24
Here's a radical concept. GW is a PLC (public limited company). Such companies are required BY LAW to attempt to maximise the return on investment (i.e. profit) for their shareholders. If they do things they know will lose money, they are breaking the law.

With that in mind, why would such a company be interested in customers who aren't able to afford their products? It's in the best interests of their shareholders to make the maximum amount of profit per sale, so they charge high prices. So it's a hobby which only better off people can afford to indulge in - so what? So are most hobbies. Golf clubs have membership fees in the hundreds or thoudands of pounds, sports tickets are expensive, going to concerts or the theatre is expensive, holidays are expensive.

I am really looking forward to Apocalypse, whether I play it in big games or not. It looks packed full of good ideas for gaming, and will hopefully help to erode the 'tournament legal' and 'optimised army build' mentality that has become so prevalent in the last few years. The fact that it will give GW a healthy finncial shot in the arm is a good thing, since it will encourage them to continue to take their games in exciting new directions.

Gaming is a niche market and always will be. If they cut their prices by 50% while still making a gross profit, it's highly unlikely they would actually increase sales by 50% to compensate. The demand is relatively independent of the price. So, given that their target market CAN afford their products, Apocalypse encourages those people to buy more of them, and that can only be a good thing.

Sorry, that got dangerously close to a pricing rant there.

Pete

Glabro
03-10-2007, 11:33
To the OP:

Err, when did it exactly become a BAD thing for something to be a money spinner? You make it sound as if its a bad thing that GW releases a successful product and makes money.

If its a good product, doesnt everybody win?

apaosha
03-10-2007, 11:37
Apocalypse = the need to buy more models = GW selling more models = GWs' heavy profit.

What more is there to it?

Stop being fanboys and open your eyes ....

Col.Gravis
03-10-2007, 12:18
Clearly Games Workshop should not be making a profit at all, we want a charity damn it!

[/sarcasm]

GW is a business, therefore EVERYTHING they do is ultimately about making a profit, you can like it or lump it, anyway will...

http://home.maine.rr.com/mattyg/wambulance.jpg

...for all these moaners who need a reality check? It's getting boring.

apaosha
03-10-2007, 12:24
Meh.

I'm simply sick of people seeing Apoc as anything other than what it is.

I find your response to this boring, to say the least ....

Col.Gravis
03-10-2007, 12:34
Meh.
I find your response to this boring, to say the least ....

From which I guess it had the intended effect :)

Anyway, at the end of the days it's your hobby, if your not interested in Apoc thats fine. However the majority of people on the forums are happy to see it arrive, its a great addition from a hobby point of view in the majority of peoples opinions. Plus as mentioned its no more of a deliberate attempt to make profit then the release of any new codex, model, or range of models. I fail to see any problem at all here other then excessive cynicism.

IJW
03-10-2007, 12:34
I find your response to this boring, to say the least ....
Pot. Kettle. :rolleyes:

And not all of us need to buy new models. In fact, given how collaborations between players are being pushed, NO-ONE actually needs to buy new models to play Apocalypse. Obviously there's a strong incentive to do so, but you can play Apoc without buying anything extra, so long as someone has the book.

apaosha
03-10-2007, 12:47
From which I guess it had the intended effect

Anyway, at the end of the days it's your hobby, if your not interested in Apoc thats fine. However the majority of people on the forums are happy to see it arrive, its a great addition from a hobby point of view in the majority of peoples opinions. Plus as mentioned its no more of a deliberate attempt to make profit then the release of any new codex, model, or range of models. I fail to see any problem at all here other then excessive cynicism.

If the intended effect was to be bloody annoying, then yes, you succeeded. :p

Anyway, I don't buy into these things as readily as you lot seem to; no more, no less. :angel:

Noserenda
03-10-2007, 12:55
Oh noes! Given that I could sell half my collection and still probably muster a 20kpt imperial army (Ex Staff) GW is hardly getting anything more than the book out of me anyhow...

Its frankly nice to see a few bigs games planned, 40k has drifted into a 1500-2000pts rut IMHO with bigger games especially being maligned as for kids, but when well done can be awesome, and thats what it seems to be about. Meanwhile, people who dont have years of discount bulking their piles of stuff up get a bit of money off big formations.

Oh Noes! The evil of it all!

Col.Gravis
03-10-2007, 13:02
lol pretty much spot on, though I would say not directed at yourself specificly! ;)

I'll be honest though and lay the cards on the table, I do find the view that apocolypse is purely an attempt to get people to buy more models cynical, however I'm by no means a fanboy either assuming they did it purely for the value of gamers- they did it because it is quite possible to turn a profit from it the same as they do with any release.

In my view its somewhere in the middle, it is something people with existing large armies wanted, in which light it is a hobby motivated thing, better certainly then a new army might have been as it's good for all players potentially, not just those who would like new army x. That said as a boon to the company it will of course encourage people with smaller collections to collect larger armies, meaning a profit. Though as several posters have pointed out you can just as easily group together with others for multiplayer megabattles, which would just require the book and templates.

That said is the company making a profit really a bad thing? The LoTR's profits bubble saw upgrades in their machinery allowing new models like the Baneblade, would'nt of happend without those profits in all likelihood.

Brother Loki
03-10-2007, 13:04
Apocalypse = the desire to buy more models = GW selling more models = GWs' heavy profit.

I think that's actually a more accurate version. The thing is, you seem to see that as a bad thing. I don't. I like buying and playing with models. Apocalypse encourages more people to buy and play with more models. Good.

It's a good thing if GW makes a profit - that's what it's for! A profitable company will still be around releasing products in years to come. An unprofitable one won't.

Belakor
03-10-2007, 14:44
Hear, hear!

Brother Loki speaks wisely.

That and the fact no gun is put to your head to get the stuff...

Andyalloverdaplace
09-10-2007, 22:20
I totally agree - people screaming "death to GW for making us pay for things!" is just laughably inane. I went on about this in another thread about the devil GW out to operate as an actual company and won't reiterate here. I fully expect a lock icon next to this thread in short order.

Never mind that GW is giving you certain breaks with apocalypse. Buy three vindicators for the price of two. Buy three land raiders for the price of two. If they were really about money above all things, they'd not be giving any kind of break like that, even short term.

What about a free codex in White Dwarf? Or summer campaigns, whatever their quality, which are not free to organize or run on their side of the fence.

Oh yes, baby eating GW. Evil GW. Corrupt GW. How dare they. New products! New game options! New possibilities! Oh, the humanity.

But really, you see this same "Greed! Greed! Greed!' accusation in every thread for every gaming company out there, certainly for all the forums I frequent. you'd just think people would be a bit more reasonable about how businesses and companies really operate.

I feel compelled to respond, having made the Rant: GW Canada thread, as we seem to have some people who are very strident in their defence of GW and some equally strident in flaming them.

Do I want GW to remain financially viable? You bet. You lose GW, you lose the resources and the new models.
Do I think Apocalypse is a bad idea, given that I refuse to shell out an extra 40% over the US list price because I live in Canada? Nope. I think it could be a lot of fun, but only one person in the group needs the book, and I'm going to save my coin. Coming up with rules to speed up really big games is a very good idea to my mind.
Do I think the deals for Apocalypse are great? Not personally, no, but thats because of the 40% business and because my beloved Speed freeks get one model (the big mek).
Do I think GW in general could have done a better job with this? Yep. But then, I keep waiting for a sensible, easy to follow indexing system for rule books to make it easy to track down rules and cross reference them quickly. It doesn't mean they are evil, it just means they aren't working to full potential.

Triggerdog
09-10-2007, 22:28
that it is up to you if you want to spend more money. I think it one of the best thing they have do in years. 40K never been so cheap as now.


nope, its not like the old rogue trader days when Land Raiders came in 2 packs for like $30. Granted they looked like crap on a stick but hey...

kris.sherriff
09-10-2007, 23:00
nope, its not like the old rogue trader days when Land Raiders came in 2 packs for like $30. Granted they looked like crap on a stick but hey...

Yes but in those days you could buy a car for $30.:p
Its all relative.

Kris

ChaosMaster
09-10-2007, 23:02
Apocalypse is the best thing to happen to 40K ever, especially for "veterans" of the hobby. One friend of mine said in all seriousness, "will we ever play another game of 40K that is NOT Apocalypse?" because he also was knocked out by how great it is after getting his Gamer's Edition yesterday. The quantity deals are also terrific for those of us who like big army collections. All my armies are already more than 3000 points anyway, but that didn't stop me from making some of them larger thanks to the big discount deals offered at this moment. Great job on all of it, GW, keep it coming!

Killgore
09-10-2007, 23:25
apocalypse has got my best gaming buddy so happy hes intending to go spend all of his 21st birthday cash on models insteed of beer!

now that takes some pursuading i can tell ya.

Spleendokta
10-10-2007, 02:27
Ive been in this hobby for 10+ years. I already own 10k+ Orks and IG. So where do I need to spend more money for Apocalypse? Oh yeah, buy the Apoc rule book. :) To me this is a great thing.

Orbital
10-10-2007, 02:38
I see people spending money to get half-finished squads up to snuff, so that's a likely expenditure for a lot of people. Even vets. A lot of us have a few models here and there that could be made into full squads with just a couple more bucks spent.

Xenocidal Maniac
10-10-2007, 02:43
Could it be possible that... maybe... just... maybe...

Apocalypse is a win-win for everyone?

We're happy... GW makes a little extra coin... everyone wins!

Or is that just impossible in the magical land of Warseer?

Alessander
10-10-2007, 03:05
Apocalypse is for veteran players, just like Cityfight was. If you're new to 40K you'll have to spend a fortune to play Apoc. It's like a collectable card game expansion that allows you to play with any card in the history of the card game. Aimed at veterans with older material.

GW going under? You do realize that GW owns a publishing company that has boomed because they now own several non-GW-world franchises? Look at www.solarisbooks.com or www.blackflame.com. GW now has license for all publishing for New Line Cinema's film tie-ins! GW could drop their miniature lines and still survive by now.

GW is a monster company. They just happened to finally cater to their older players. New players should stick to the Marine paint by numbers starter squad kit.

Orbital
10-10-2007, 03:06
Could it be possible that... maybe... just... maybe...

Apocalypse is a win-win for everyone?

We're happy... GW makes a little extra coin... everyone wins!

I'm usually pretty cynical about this kind of thing, but I've come to agree with you: Apocalypse will make GW some coin (I hope), but it's also just a great expansion. Part of me wishes that more of the Apoc rules were folded into the main rulebook, in fact.

Orbital
10-10-2007, 03:48
Apocalypse is for veteran players, just like Cityfight was.

This is one ongoing myth that always makes me shake my head.

Apocalypse is about making money for GW. It's still a great ruleset, but don't pretend it's about anything other than making money for them (and that's perfectly fair; they're a corporation after all).

Do we really think that Apocalypse was made for the veterans? The ones who already own all the models necessary? The ones who typically spend $20 or less per month at the store? How much money is GW going to make off of those people? I think vets will totally love the new supplement, but those boxes with 100 Leman Russes or 100 Jetbikes in them aren't for people who have been in the hobby for 30 years, believe me.

Imperialis_Dominatus
10-10-2007, 05:46
Sarcasm is a poor man's wit, Rex.

And playing GW games makes one poor.


Ah now that's another problem with Apocalypse, some of the new codices *cough* Eldar *cough* Dark Angels *cough* don't really let you "tool" up your characters/troops to soak up points. Hence the reason people need to buy more models :rolleyes:

*cough* Chaos *cough*

Come on, remember those 270 point Daemon Princes with all the goodies?

Anyway, I'll just buy the book, get the rules, and expand my Chaos force. Not feeling the datasheet forces atm, so GW won't get money that way. Well, maybe. If there's cool original ones. I'm not gonna go out and buy 12 phalanxes of Predators or whatever.

But it is a money spinner. Whatever. Sucker born every minute, they'll fuel the GW hobby and I'll reap the rewards (awesome models, new plastics, even more selection on BWB).

And when I'm filthy rich and GW is going under, I'll buy it and turn it into what it should be. Being filthy rich I won't care if they make a damn profit. Just as long as I can pay them off.

And if I can't I'll hire people who really care about the hobby to do the work and don't demand ridiculous wages and royalties. :evilgrin: Just kidding.

Or I'll just win the lottery. Capitalism for you.

mistformsquirrel
10-10-2007, 05:50
Not necessarily, IIRC, the only stipulation is at least 3000 points per side so you could ally your 1500 points with a friend if you don't want to buy more stuff.

Agreed.

I'm a newbie, I only have 750pts; and this army is liable to top out at 1500-2000 (depending on what I feel like after I hit 1500)

Regardless, its doubtful my Silverblades will see 3000pts by their lonesome.

That's OK though - because under Apocalypse rules its very easy to just ally every force you own. If you have 2 1500pt armies, why not just field both?

Eventually I know I'll have a second 1500pt army at least; so I'm not worried. Its something I'd do anyway; not like I'm shelling out extra to meet a minimum.

shakespear
10-10-2007, 06:23
Its nice for vets, as for anyone else, ask in 2 years when they finish painting that large army.

Unless its waaaaaay steamlined its stupid, 1850 takes 2-3 hours to play, who has time to play almost double that.

Out of that time, 45 min - 1 hour are spent arguing over the rules..

BigRob
10-10-2007, 06:34
In my opinion if your spending 45mins to and hour arguing over rules your doing something wrong.

Apocalypse isnt aimed at veteran gamers any more than its aimed at newbies. Vets like it because they can field all thier models from over the years, in giant battles, plus all that expensive resin they mortgaged the house for. Theres been a massive increase in titan/garagnt/big killy things building in the projects forum.

Newbies like it because GW has released big chunky deals to part them from thier cash, like the battle company, if you've got the 200 odd to drop, thats your space marine army right there. Big savings and you can play 1500-2000pt games easily with it, bargain. On top of the bargins:) you get to play huge cool battles with big explosions and super flamethrowing mega tanks. I love that! Its bound to help add to the hobbies attractivness.

Apocalypse is another suppliment to sell things, like cities of death is a book designed to sell plastic buildings, battlemats and over priced resin counters. Its just in this case alot of what its selling does give a genuine saving.

Go Apocalypse!

Varath- Lord Impaler
10-10-2007, 06:38
*cough* Chaos *cough*

Come on, remember those 270 point Daemon Princes with all the goodies?

Anyway, I'll just buy the book, get the rules, and expand my Chaos force. Not feeling the datasheet forces ATM, so GW won't get money that way. Well, maybe. If there's cool original ones. I'm not gonna go out and buy 12 phalanxes of Predators or whatever.


Yeah i remember those Daemon princes, watching as they tore through armies alone, thinking "my god, i hope this codex gets updated soon"

HOORAY IT HAPPENED!




But it is a money spinner. Whatever. Sucker born every minute, they'll fuel the GW hobby and I'll reap the rewards (awesome models, new plastics, even more selection on BWB).

Im sorry, oh mighty one, but your not allowed to buy GW products any more. If you do youll be 'sucker' and feeding the evil flames of GW who are creating fun rules for ALL of its fans, not just specific ones.

Why dont you buy other lines games? Then you wont be a sucker like the rest of us!

Then we can be rid of you and your doom preaching while us suckers are having fun playing Apocalypse :P

GildorInglorion
10-10-2007, 06:58
As many fellow warseers already pointed out:

- it's not mandatory AND...
- ...the primary mission of a company is making profit

so if you don't like that, why complaining?

But I would like to add a more "radical" thought: in my opinion Apocalypse is perfect to play WH40K spending LESS money, or even NO MONEY at all!

Think about that: for a player (not for a miniatures collector) the main reason to buy new stuff is trying to adapt to a new army list.

Now that all the FOC restrictions are gone:

- we can just throw in all the models we have
- we can join two or more friends' armies

So why spending money? If you feel pushed to buy newer stuff, you have a problem mate!!! :-)
As we all know, companies must make profit, but (fortunately) we are not forced to buy their products if we don't like that.

Just my 2 cents

Nick

Stingray_tm
10-10-2007, 07:13
I don't think that Apocalypse is a win-win situation. The time spent here would have been better invested in creating a Dark Eldar/Inquisition codex or in proof reading and playtesting the Chaos codex. Or in creating plastic Gargoyles. Or at least they could have created Apocalypse army deals, that could be used in 40K too... (10 Sentinels? WTF?!? WTH not 9?)

Also this "it's all about fun" attitude is dangerous, because it could make them lazy(er) when designing new codizes. Solid and tested rules does not mean the game is supposed to be no fun... Those things are not mutually exclusive.

execution of all things
10-10-2007, 07:32
Agreed.

I'm a newbie, I only have 750pts; and this army is liable to top out at 1500-2000 (depending on what I feel like after I hit 1500)

Regardless, its doubtful my Silverblades will see 3000pts by their lonesome.

That's OK though - because under Apocalypse rules its very easy to just ally every force you own. If you have 2 1500pt armies, why not just field both?

Eventually I know I'll have a second 1500pt army at least; so I'm not worried. Its something I'd do anyway; not like I'm shelling out extra to meet a minimum.

Your attitude should be commended. This is exactly the mindset people without 3,000 point armies should have. The points you make are exactly the what is addressed in the book. That only leaves out people with small armies and not enough friends who play, in which case they should worry about finding more players before worrying about playing Apoc. Anyone else who is complaining imo is acting selfishly since the number of people excited about this far outweigh the people who think it sucks.



I don't think that Apocalypse is a win-win situation. The time spent here would have been better invested in creating a Dark Eldar/Inquisition codex or in proof reading and playtesting the Chaos codex. Or in creating plastic Gargoyles. Or at least they could have created Apocalypse army deals, that could be used in 40K too... (10 Sentinels? WTF?!? WTH not 9?)

Also this "it's all about fun" attitude is dangerous, because it could make them lazy(er) when designing new codizes. Solid and tested rules does not mean the game is supposed to be no fun... Those things are not mutually exclusive.

So they should focus specifcally on creating things that you want? Don't get me wrong, new codices will always be welcomed by me but I'm also quite happy to have this expansion. Regardless, I don't think the entire GW staff was working on this one project. They managed to get a new chaos codex and ork codex out along with this in a 3 month window.

I'm not really sure why you think the army deals can't be used for regular 40k. Most of the box sets aren't overly large and with the savings unused models could easily be put up on ebay allowing you to get some money back. Or you could split boxes with a friend and save even more.

Complaining about the laid back attitude of Apoc finding its way into the core rules is about as likely as CoD causing every future codex to be custom tailored to city battles. They are simply expansions, they don't affect standard 40k games or armies.

Orbital
10-10-2007, 07:47
The time spent here would have been better invested in creating a Dark Eldar/Inquisition codex or in proof reading and playtesting the Chaos codex. Or in creating plastic Gargoyles. Or at least they could have created Apocalypse army deals, that could be used in 40K too... (10 Sentinels? WTF?!? WTH not 9?)

Also this "it's all about fun" attitude is dangerous, because it could make them lazy(er) when designing new codizes. Solid and tested rules does not mean the game is supposed to be no fun... Those things are not mutually exclusive.

Yeah, cause the people who make plastic Gargoyles are the same ones who write the rulebooks.

Furthermore, do you think that there aren't people already working on the Dark Eldar stuff? Games Workshop has several designers on staff specifically to work on several projects concurrently. Given that supplements, rulebooks, and codices all take years to develop, it's a must.

But... what if they had every resource devoted to Apocalypse? There's something for every army in that book, product deals for every army, and it gives the most new material to widest range of the GW customer base. If they ignored the new models and rules you want (which they aren't doing), it would be because they would sell more and reach more people with Apocalypse.

As for the idea that "all about fun" might somehow ruin the game... I'm not even going to waste my time addressing that bizarre perspective.

Xenocidal Maniac
10-10-2007, 07:48
Has anyone else had totally juvenile fantasies of quitting work to just assemble, paint, and play 40k full time with the coming of Apocalypse?

Yeah, totally juvenile, I know, but I swear this thought has popped in my head at least once a day since I read the Apoc rulebook. I'm not actually going to act on it, of course, but... you know, we can dream.

alexh
10-10-2007, 08:44
Has anyone else had totally juvenile fantasies of quitting work to just assemble, paint, and play 40k full time with the coming of Apocalypse?

Yeah, totally juvenile, I know, but I swear this thought has popped in my head at least once a day since I read the Apoc rulebook. I'm not actually going to act on it, of course, but... you know, we can dream.

I'm thinking that I might have to quit being unemployed in order to pay for everything. :D

sebster
10-10-2007, 09:44
I think maybe somewhere, right now, there are people on a forum for… let’s say cars… maybe Mazda. There are people on that forum who own standard Mazda sedans, 3s or 6s or whatever, they’re happy with their cars but they aren’t happy that Mazda is selling this new, sportier, pricier model. They can’t afford the newer car and are unhappy that Mazda would sell such a thing, despite Mazda continuing to support their standard car range to the same extent they always have.

And other people are making fun of them, because complaining that a company is releasing something that other people want to buy is ridiculous. Especially when that other product doesn’t affect their sales to you in any way, shape or form.

Imperialis_Dominatus
10-10-2007, 09:52
Ima be an irritating bastard.


Yeah i remember those Daemon princes, watching as they tore through armies alone, thinking "my god, i hope this codex gets updated soon"

HOORAY IT HAPPENED!

Yeah. More points for troop spam now. Trust me, there's more to worry about with this new Codex. Though if you see Spawn or Lesser Daemons on the table, don't quote me but have a fun game. Possessed too, unless they roll good. ;)


Im sorry, oh mighty one, but your not allowed to buy GW products any more. If you do youll be 'sucker' and feeding the evil flames of GW who are creating fun rules for ALL of its fans, not just specific ones.

That's "Mr. Mighty One" to an underling peon like yourself. And I did say I might expand to 3000 just to be able to do it. Of course, by sucker I was truly referring the lifeblood that keeps GW alive, which though they are corporate devils, they are corporate devils who design and produce the models and rules for my beloved army. So I'm glad for the... people who buy egregious amounts of stuff. Not suckers. Obviously. :cool:


Why dont you buy other lines games? Then you wont be a sucker like the rest of us!

Because GW has my soul.


Then we can be rid of you and your doom preaching while us suckers are having fun playing Apocalypse :P

Doom? Doom? I'll show you DOOM! On your house no less! Hahahahahahahah!

And I will have fun. Playing Apocalypse. Over your dead body! *shakes fist in anger*

No, I was just kidding, NO NOT THE MODS! *ZZZZZZ-IP!*

-------------------

Haha, you couldn't hold me down long enough, cretin authoritative wretches! You too shall know the wrath of Chaos!


Has anyone else had totally juvenile fantasies of quitting work to just assemble, paint, and play 40k full time with the coming of Apocalypse?

Yeah, totally juvenile, I know, but I swear this thought has popped in my head at least once a day since I read the Apoc rulebook. I'm not actually going to act on it, of course, but... you know, we can dream.

Been wanting to do this since I entered the hobby. Too bad I can't work for GW. That would be a mortal sin.


I'm thinking that I might have to quit being unemployed in order to pay for everything. :D

I have to say, that would help your cause greatly.

BLZBOB
10-10-2007, 10:34
Well Apocalypse is going to be the thing that tips me over the edge back into gaming, I havent done it in years but have been collecting since the early nineties. Most of my units are modelled on rule of cool as opposed to tournament winners and I certainly dont have the typical ratios of forces. I eagerly await the possibility to field my tau whom I have more vehicles than fire warriors and more suits than firewarriors too.

Yes its an excuse for them to make money, hell I havent gamed in years and have already shelled out for the gamers edition (Still waiting for it though), several tau specials some marine gubbins and just last night dropped over three hundred portraits of the queen on FW, with the missus' blessing :eek:

I am seriously looking forward to fun gaming the win at all costs aspect turned me off but 'free gaming' should redress the balance. I have some really unusal moves and formations to try out which given the FOC constraints I wouldnt be able to do, who cares if I win or lose I just think it would be fun to have a go.

Durath
10-10-2007, 13:49
As a 17 year veteran, all i'll say is 'About Time!!'
QFT!
And as a 13-yr veteran, I concur!

thorgrim
10-10-2007, 20:48
I've got a space wolf army of 8 and half thousand points so i say this is brilliant!

execution of all things
10-10-2007, 21:11
Has anyone else had totally juvenile fantasies of quitting work to just assemble, paint, and play 40k full time with the coming of Apocalypse?

Yeah, totally juvenile, I know, but I swear this thought has popped in my head at least once a day since I read the Apoc rulebook. I'm not actually going to act on it, of course, but... you know, we can dream.

Yes. That's partly cause my job has been stressing me out so much lately. I obviously can't just up and quit with car payments and bills and rent and all that but I did cut back my work schedule a bit. Not by much but enough to have some more free time to devote to 40k and my other interests. It may be somewhat juvenile but I'm feeling alot less stressed and I already bought everything I need for Apoc(minus the baneblade) so all I have to do now is relax, have a beer and get some models built and painted. :D


Oh, and to however posted the Mazda analogy, my thoughts exactly, just you said it much more eloquently than I could. ;)

Psycho_Laughs
10-10-2007, 21:48
I think maybe somewhere, right now, there are people on a forum for lets say cars maybe Mazda. There are people on that forum who own standard Mazda sedans, 3s or 6s or whatever, theyre happy with their cars but they arent happy that Mazda is selling this new, sportier, pricier model. They cant afford the newer car and are unhappy that Mazda would sell such a thing, despite Mazda continuing to support their standard car range to the same extent they always have.

And other people are making fun of them, because complaining that a company is releasing something that other people want to buy is ridiculous. Especially when that other product doesnt affect their sales to you in any way, shape or form.

well, since we are using car analogies...
think of it this way.
not every dissenter here is someone who can't afford the newer model, some of us are dissenters because it's a bad idea.
now insted of mazda lets replace it with owning a VW bug type car and a ferrari type car.
the bug is useful in any situation, tons of support.
now the ferrari, it's pretty and it's the holy grail of cars, but depending where you live you have to be a complete and total sucker to buy one. they are ideal for medium and highspeeds, but suck at low speeds making it only usable in very few places on the planet that are not race courses.
if my bug is waiting for support for some time and insted of providing the much needed support my car dealership sudenly stocks up on ferraris, with the line "it's ok, your bug is still good!" :wtf: i'd be livid...

much the same how often do you think you'll see apocalypse games?
insted of releasing this suplement, they could've have released another codex in there, and help out armies that have been waiting for new codexes and figures for some time.

of course it won't hurt their sales. it's not about that. it's about having a sucker fanboy base that will love and buy anything and everything gw releases. :angel:

execution of all things
11-10-2007, 01:38
Your analogy doesn't really work.

40k is an expensive hobby. I'm sorry it is tough for some people to build up their armies. I went through this when I first started playing at 14. What my friends and I would do when a new specialist game came out is split the cost. The people who wanted, say the Orks from GorkaMorka, would pay a little extra but the rules where shared and since we always played together it never caused problems. This shouldn't be a problem for players now with Apoc. Split it with a few friends, play team games until your army gets to 3,000+ points or don't play if you don't like it.

I see the point you are trying to make about it pushing back codex releases but I'm not sure that Apocalypse has caused this. We are finally about to see Orks redone and yes armies like DE are a way off. That may have nothing to do with Apoc. GW is a international corporation with enough employees and game developers to work on multiple projects. Redoing DE is going to take a long time because they are redoing the model range completely and that takes awhile. So should they stop putting out cool new supplements that the majority of gamers are extremely excited about or just not put releases out so they won't anger a few gamers who feel neglected?

Xenocidal Maniac
11-10-2007, 01:50
Psycho_Laughs - You've failed to convince me that Apocalypse has somehow been detrimental to your life or your enjoyment of the hobby. How did Apoc delay releases for other armies? Got some proof? How did this release personally hit you in the pocketbook or reduce your enjoyment of the game?

It really just sounds like you're one of these cynical people who likes to find reasons to complain no matter what. I have the feeling that you will reply to this post with a desperate attempt to maintain a grip on your "Apocalypse sucks" dogma just because you've been called on it and now you have to tow the line, but there won't be any real convincing support behind your argument. So how about you just give up and move on, k?

Let us sucker fanboy GW lapdogs have our fun while you revel in the upper echelons of your totally elite 40k player castle or whatever it is you do. Or just quit in disgust and get out of the hobby if you can't afford it or no longer think it's worth the money. Because frankly no one cares. Thanks! :)

Edit: This goes for all you other Apoc naysayers, too!

Psycho_Laughs
11-10-2007, 08:27
Psycho_Laughs - You've failed to convince me that Apocalypse has somehow been detrimental to your life
i never claimed it was detrimental to my life. it's not like i'm hooked on a 40iv or something ridiculous like that.

or your enjoyment of the hobby.
now this can be argued. it has indeed been detrimental to my enjoyment of the hobby. as a busy person, who enjoys 40k, i find apocalypse was the wrong direction to go. yeah a really big game can be fun, but unless you have a whole day to throw at it, you're not going to be doing it very often. i find smaller was the right direction to go. combat patrol and kill team are grossly inadequate copouts.

How did Apoc delay releases for other armies? Got some proof?!
it's just logic. you have a team of sculptors and game developers spending time on a project like this, it's time they are not working on developing new models and rules for a codex. if thats too complicated for you to understand, i'm sorry i can't think of a simpler way to say it.

How did this release personally hit you in the pocketbook
i never claimed it hit my pocketbook. in fact the opposite. i have a super heavy and two thunderbolts bought from FW, as well as other items for other armies. i have disposable income that i now do choose to spend on games by other companies, sometimes with more expensive, but better quality rules and models.

or reduce your enjoyment of the game?!
as i noted before, 40k should have gone smaller not bigger. you don't need a BGB sized book to tell you to ignore a FOC to play a bigger game. but you do need new rules to make a skirmish game interesting.
40k has become a game of you have your turn, i have my turn. you don't even have to be there while your opponent is moving his whole army (in fact, when playing against tyranids, guard, orks, and other large model count army i was usually perusing the books or going for a snack). it's boring to watch you oponent move 50 models, thinking about each one when it adds very little to the actual game experience.

It really just sounds like you're one of these cynical people who likes to find reasons to complain no matter what.
nope, i'm actually a big hopeful. i hoped this suplement would be something really interesting, read the book and found nothing "wow" about it. i found the city fight supplement infinetly superior.
you on the other hands sound like the kind of guy that when GW goes "hey, we have this new item called gunk we picked from out shoes. you can get it in red or blue" you go "i'll have as many as i can of blue gunk, but i also want some red gunk."

I have the feeling that you will reply to this post with a desperate attempt to maintain a grip on your "Apocalypse sucks" dogma just because you've been called on it and now you have to tow the line, but there won't be any real convincing support behind your argument. So how about you just give up and move on, k?
i don't have to tow any line. i don't think apocalypse sucks. it's just completely unnecessary right now.
and don't try to be condecending ok buddy? cause you're not very good at it.
when i see an entire store region moving to smaller games like necromunda, BFG, warmachine, hordes, AT-43, because they are more intellectually challenging, because the model count is small but the complexity of the game is big, i think i have been convinced enough.
how about you move yourself with you credit card to the nearest games workshop. i'm sure they'll be delighted, and not because you are such an agreeable chap.

Let us sucker fanboy GW lapdogs have our fun while you revel in the upper echelons of your totally elite 40k player castle or whatever it is you do.
man, i wish i had an elite 40k castle. that would kick some. but yes, i will play with other players that are of like mind. i don't go looking for people i don't like outside of the hobby, why should i do it when immersed in it?
but sure, go have you sucker fanboy fun. i'm sure you'll do it very well.

Or just quit in disgust
what disgusts... i don't wanna get banned so i'll stop there with this one.

and get out of the hobby if you can't afford it or no longer think it's worth the money.
i will keep painting and playing with miniatures, for me that is the hobby, not only what GW put out there, and i have severely reduced my purchases from them. as stated before, i can afford to buy anything i want for an apocalypse army, and i do think the models are worth simply for the modeling aspect. what they are doing with the rules is just... disapointing to say the least.
GW has never been worth the money :D that didn't stop me when i started with their games, not gonna stop me now. i've just become more selective over what of their worthless crap i'll throw money at.

Because frankly no one cares. Thanks! :)
frankly i think you do care.
you don't like people pointing out the flaws of something you want to convince yourself is the be all end all of gaming companies.

Colonel Fitzgerald
11-10-2007, 09:47
What a great way of GW to make some big money release a supplement that requires at least a 3000 point army.

what do other people think?

I had a look at the rulebook yesterday to see what all the fuss was about. I bought a baneblade :o (because it's like going to a pizza place & not picking pepperoni -just shut up & give in) and the book on the spot because I realised that this game was made for people like me & my friends who play MASSIVE games that take all day. We want huge games & superheavies! Never been able to afford the Forge World stuff before & now we can. I think so far that yes, it's a money spinner, but it's also actually looking quite good in game terms for vets. Just one guy talking though.:angel:

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-10-2007, 10:02
Hmmm.... so basically what I'm hearing three posts above me is "go big or go home and cry."

That's exactly how forum members should treat each other. :rolleyes:

Damn, children, calm down, calm down, let poppa tell you a story and take a nap or something. No need to get nasty here. We're discussing GW and their recent actions.

I'll admit both of you hold merit in your arguments but if you just want to bash each other over teh internets do it in PM. I'm not interested.

mistformsquirrel
11-10-2007, 10:19
What would the internet be without personal arguments over pointless crap though? <;.;> ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL OUR INTERWEBS?!

Xenocidal Maniac
11-10-2007, 10:27
Hey Psycho - I caught about the first and last lines of your little novel there - you think I care what you have to say? Wrong!

I couldn't even be bothered to read it. Yep. You just wasted your time writing your little masterpiece. I bet your hands were quivering all the while you were hacking away at your keyboard muttering "I'll show him". And then I totally burned you by seeing you had written a book, scrolling right past it, and hitting the "Reply" button.

I truly don't care what you have to say.

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-10-2007, 10:28
What would the internet be without personal arguments over pointless crap though? <;.;> ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL OUR INTERWEBS?!

Damn. I've been found out!

*runs for his life from a torch/pitchfork wielding mob of slimy inbred peasants*

Note: That doesn't mean you are a bunch of torch/pitchfork wielding mob of slimy inbred peasants. For clarity.

EDIT: Wow. The post above me is exactly what I'm talking about. Holy Jesus jumping yeah, you guys know how to stir up drama.

Xenocidal Maniac
11-10-2007, 10:36
EDIT: Wow. The post above me is exactly what I'm talking about. Holy Jesus jumping yeah, you guys know how to stir up drama.

Oh, get over it. You're a drama queen yourself. Just look at your avatar pic.

I'm only being real, here. When some guy has his mind made up, is being petty, curmudgeonly, and wrong-headed, but is gonna obstinately and dogmatically sing the same song no matter what anyone says, well, the only thing I have left to do is put my hands over my ears, close my eyes, and sing "Lalalalala".

Apoc rules. GW rules. End of story. I am sick of the little bashers and totally overmedicated on painkillers and delirious from lack of sleep these past few days (just got the old tonsils out at my advanced age - wow it hurts!!!).

Daniel36
11-10-2007, 10:38
Ahhh... You know what, I am going to edit my post because this is a pointless discussion anyways...

I am going to have fun with Apocalypse!

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-10-2007, 11:01
Apoc rules. GW rules. End of story. I am sick of the little bashers and totally overmedicated on painkillers and delirious from lack of sleep these past few days (just got the old tonsils out at my advanced age - wow it hurts!!!).

Tonsils, eh? That sucks, I feel for you. My brother had 'em out, and he took a step out of the car and tossed his cookies.

Ah.... whatever. Just let it lie, that's all I want. Not too Jack Sparrow=Drama Queen but in the spirit of my own advice I'll forget about it, ok? I mean, discussions about GW and Apocalypse really shouldn't be derailed because of it, say, being closed for flaming. That's more what I'm trying to avoid.

Bookwrak
11-10-2007, 12:47
I think that the issue is that if you boiled down Psychlo's posts to their bare essentials, GW could save a baby from a burning building, and he'd go, 'Yeah, but it was an ugly baby. Stupid GW.'

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-10-2007, 12:53
I think that the issue is that if you boiled down Psychlo's posts to their bare essentials, GW could save a baby from a burning building, and he'd go, 'Yeah, but it was an ugly baby. Stupid GW.'

Dammit. Don't make me change my sig again! This one's only been up for a day.

FateofChaos
11-10-2007, 12:54
I am working on my apoc army. So far
80 troops out of 200
2 land raiders of out 6
1 defiler out of 6 (maybe I might change to that other thing)
Then I need the book see what I can make or I might have some my own ideas.

mistformsquirrel
11-10-2007, 13:01
... Six Land Raiders makes me happy just thinking about it >.>

... But then I think Land Raiders are freaking awesome, just for the look of em.

Captain Micha
11-10-2007, 13:52
Imperialis sigged so you won't have to *L*

Orbital
11-10-2007, 14:38
Oh, get over it. You're a drama queen yourself. Just look at your avatar pic.

That's uncalled for.

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-10-2007, 14:52
Micha and Orbital: Thanks, guys. :cool:


... Six Land Raiders makes me happy just thinking about it >.>

... But then I think Land Raiders are freaking awesome, just for the look of em.

Yeah, I think they look teh sick too. Unfortunately consensus is that they don't stand up as well as they should. So I've held off on them. Plus there's not much in my army that calls for a 250 point transport.

Not to mention my HS slots are plugged up.

kuriad
11-10-2007, 14:56
Here is my Personal Opinion.

I think yes apocalypse is a money spinner for GW.

However, for people that have already have 3000+ armies then this is great news for them as they will now be able to play those massive games that they have always wanted.

But my main gripe in apoc is the number of people that will still be fielding abuse armies and win at all cost armies. Without the force org chart people will now go crazy over the most overpowering aspect of their armies. So unless you really know the person you are playing against then all APOC games will be massive cheesefests.

susu.exp
11-10-2007, 15:52
Yes, but I hop these people will have taken the hint from Jervis: Be a powergamer and abuse these rules and youre not likely to play this type of 40k game again. I mean, Im building a new army for Apoc and its there to be cool. Now theres a lot of "max cheese apoc lists" on the web. Is anybody going to build them? The all special characters list? The all AC-Landspeeder list? Is anybody willing to shell out that much money to get 50 Landspeeders on the table for a game that they wont play a second time and then have to keep playing FOC games? I doubt it.

Xenocidal Maniac
11-10-2007, 15:56
That's uncalled for.

I was being facetious - maybe I should have put a smiley next to it or something.

No offense intended. I like Imperialis Dominatus.

VetSgtNamaan
11-10-2007, 16:06
Of course it is a money spinner because well GW needs to make money and needs to show its shareholders it is actually trying to turn things around. As for the reasons well we all have hobbies I see nothing inherently wrong with spend money on GW products nor do I see a problem with my friends and or thier parents spending the large amounts of money on yearly memberships to local golf clubs or seasons tickets for the local hockey team.

Most of the Apocalypse games are not going to be one on one. They are going to be teams of players combining to make the battles huge. As a result they are likely to be rare and infrequent. I know they will be in my area since all of the regulars have divergent schedules it seems.
Well all have things that are more important than a hobby like mortgages cat payments variious other rather neccessary bills. For those on a shoe string just look about for people who are selling thier armies. I have often found that people sell thier old model for dirt cheap cause most people want the new stuff. (Since I tend to prefer the old models it works out great for me.'

Bookwrak
11-10-2007, 16:32
Here is my Personal Opinion.

I think yes apocalypse is a money spinner for GW.

However, for people that have already have 3000+ armies then this is great news for them as they will now be able to play those massive games that they have always wanted.

But my main gripe in apoc is the number of people that will still be fielding abuse armies and win at all cost armies. Without the force org chart people will now go crazy over the most overpowering aspect of their armies. So unless you really know the person you are playing against then all APOC games will be massive cheesefests.

Seriously, when will this ever happen? How often will you play someone in Apocalypse and not know what they generally intend to field? The general size and varying point level makes it all but unfeasible to play a pick-up game of Apocalypse, which means that you'll have plenty of opportunity to go, 'hey, now that's really uncool,' if they try and throw together something heavily unfun.

IJW
11-10-2007, 16:39
So unless you really know the person you are playing against then all APOC games will be massive cheesefests.
As many people have already pointed out... who in their right mind is going to be playing pick-up games of Apocalypse?

Psycho_Laughs
11-10-2007, 18:08
Hey Psycho - I caught about the first and last lines of your little novel there - you think I care what you have to say? Wrong!

I couldn't even be bothered to read it. Yep. You just wasted your time writing your little masterpiece. I bet your hands were quivering all the while you were hacking away at your keyboard muttering "I'll show him". And then I totally burned you by seeing you had written a book, scrolling right past it, and hitting the "Reply" button.

I truly don't care what you have to say.

quivering and muttering? :D oh man...
hey, why are you still replying? *poke*
i obviously stroke a chord. you'll probably huff and puff writing to say otherwise (see? i can do it too).
how about getting back on topic.
back to the original argument, it's basic logic, if people are spending more than average for a realease it is clever spining on GWs part to swindle some more money. after their last shares report i'm not surprised they are doing something to show the shareholder "we're trying here, we suck at it but we're trying."
so yes, it is a great money spinner.

Captain Micha
11-10-2007, 18:14
Gw trying to sell more models, who would have thought......

Personally I think the army deals are on the right track to saving their sorry you know whats. and if they are smart, they'll start ramping up their advertising, along with the scale of their production lines... with the profits, more sales = more production ability which means less cost for them and us alike.. = everyone wins

Psycho_Laughs
11-10-2007, 18:16
I think that the issue is that if you boiled down Psychlo's posts to their bare essentials, GW could save a baby from a burning building, and he'd go, 'Yeah, but it was an ugly baby. Stupid GW.'

wow, did i strike a chord with more than xenosomething or other?
i would say my posts are more like there is a burning building. gw saves a puppy from the fire when they could be saving the baby.
yeah the puppy is cute and all but it shouldn't have been the priority.
it's not a "GW sucks" argument is a "GW has been sucking lately" argument.
opposition helps work out the kinks, thats the meaning behind multi party politics you know?
someone has to object.:angel:

Captain Micha
11-10-2007, 18:20
I just thought the quote hilarious enough to sig it. Gw is getting closer than they were, at least to me. they just need to keep up where they are going and get it over with. Introduce the variants later. balance first... hallmark of any good system honest.

Alessander
11-10-2007, 19:28
GW is an expansion that caters to veteran players. Seriously, do vet players care about Battle for Macragge, the New Paint set or the various new battleforces when they already have 3000 points of models in an army? (edit: "yes" to the last one only if there's new stuff)

Let me rephrase this... how many people are upset about apocalypse because they don't have 3000+ points worth of 40K models in total? Bet says that the people who answer yes to the previous question most likely are not "veterans".

Orbital
11-10-2007, 19:58
GW is an expansion that caters to veteran players.

Apocalypse doesn't cater to veterans. Vets already have all the models. That doesn't help GW. All those big boxes full of jetbikes and leman russes are for newbs, not vets. Vets already have that stuff.

susu.exp
11-10-2007, 21:14
Id call myself a vet (Ive been playing half my life, ever since I was an annoying 13 year old) and Ill have some. I dont have a single 3k army. Ive got 2 Chaos armies totaling 2500pts, Some nids, Some Orks, Some Tau and some Eldar. Ill probably embark on Guard now, with a Knight world theme (Household first. The bits are just about to arrive here.). Ill get the 3 basilisk box, because I need earthshakers and with the box Ill get them and deducting the price of the earthshaker sprue: 3 chimeras for the price of 2. Maybe later on a pack of russes and an infantry company box... Good deals for me. Not because Im a newbie to the hobby, but because that gives me good savings if I build my army in a different way (when you start out, you fill up your force org. Ive already got playable armies and can start an army off with a bunch of transports, then add some HS and then paint up a bunch of troops. Im not in a hurry to get them on the tabletop).
But the boxes arent what sells Apoc to me. Apoc is sold to me with the promise of fun games. When I read we want to reintroduce some of the madness of earlier editions I say: Thats what I want. This is the suplement where I simply dont want to hear any complains about balance. ******* balance. I want some good old fahioned fun.

Orbital
11-10-2007, 21:24
When I read we want to reintroduce some of the madness of earlier editions I say: Thats what I want. This is the suplement where I simply dont want to hear any complains about balance. ******* balance. I want some good old fahioned fun.

I'm right there with you on that, man.

Durath
11-10-2007, 21:47
Apocalypse doesn't cater to veterans. Vets already have all the models. That doesn't help GW. All those big boxes full of jetbikes and leman russes are for newbs, not vets. Vets already have that stuff.

Wrong.

Vets have alot of models, but most were bought for tournament play and became obsolete, or were bought because they looked cool.

These box sets have rules about specific quantities of models that accompany them. Sure a few people will get lucky and have x-number of vypers, and x-number of jetbikes, and an Autarch on a Jetbike laying around, but they might not have a Revenant, or a scorpion, or a Nightwing...

Saying that this expansion isn't for veterans is like saying roads aren't for tires...:eyebrows:

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-10-2007, 22:00
opposition helps work out the kinks, thats the meaning behind multi party politics you know?

Actually I've found that multiple party politics are really designed to play goodcop-badcop for decades, blaming everything on each other while harnessing corporate interests to line their pockets with gold and suck the normal man dry. And the poor? **** the poor. They get to die. In ghettos. Don't even set up concentration camps, let them kill each other. :angel:

But that's what happens when you bring up politics... everyone's got an opinion, and mine just might suck.

I'm in the 'fun is good, but balance makes it more fun' camp. Just to say something on topic.

boogle
11-10-2007, 22:07
Thats what I want. This is the suplement where I simply dont want to hear any complains about balance. ******* balance. I want some good old fahioned fun.

Thanks goodness for this statement, a person who gets the total ethos of Apocalypse, the very moment the rules become more of an issue than the Apocalypse game i am playing, I will stop playing that game and pack up

alexh
11-10-2007, 22:18
Thanks goodness for this statement, a person who gets the total ethos of Apocalypse, the very moment the rules become more of an issue than the Apocalypse game i am playing, I will stop playing that game and pack up

Well said. As I have said previously, Apocalypse is the best thing to happen to 40k simply for the sheer fun factor. :D:D

Norsehawk
11-10-2007, 22:21
ah great, gw is evil and wants to take all our money!!1uno!!1eleven! thread number 7589734

Orbital
11-10-2007, 23:10
Vets have alot of models, but most were bought for tournament play and became obsolete, or were bought because they looked cool.

This is one of those great examples of how someone says something as if it's fact and it sounds like it must be one, but it really isn't. Durath has no actual data to support this. It's just pulled out of thin air because he wants to support a point that doesn't have other supporting evidence.

What I know from facts presented to Games Workshop manages in the country where I live is that "Veterans" (meaning long-timers of 5 years or more) spend, on average, $20 a month at most at Games Workshop retail stores or via mail order. This is information that was given from head office to managers. It's not something I just made up.

Furthermore, the average customer (meaning the majority of their clientele by a factor of 75% or more) stay in the hobby for 18 months and then move on.

Vets, of course, aren't going to always have the precise combination of Leman Russes or Falcons to take advantage of the Apocalypse rules, but they're 100x more likely to have those things than the 18-monthers who are spending like crazy for a short period of time. Eldar Vets will, by now, have an Autarch on a bike. Marine vets, by now, will have a few Land Raiders. These are also the ones who will have the Revenant, Scorpion, Nightwing, etc.

Saying that Apoc is to vets as roads are to cars is incorrect. Saying that Apoc is to vets as toll booths are to someone who doesn't have to make the journey is a lot more like it.

Xenocidal Maniac
11-10-2007, 23:58
Orbital, cite your sources, please.

I mean, if we're gonna get all pedantic and accuse people of making stuff up, here...

Monospot
12-10-2007, 00:06
Apocalypse doesn't cater to veterans. Vets already have all the models. That doesn't help GW. All those big boxes full of jetbikes and leman russes are for newbs, not vets. Vets already have that stuff.

I'd be curious to see in a poll of the "vets" that frequent this message board that asked the question "Will you be buying any of the new Apoc box sets and, if so, how many?" The results would be limited by the n value (i.e. number of responders needed to get true statistical significance) and whether or not the Warseer population is a valid cross-section of 40K gamers as a population group.

I've been playing for 17 years, and I have about 5 box sets on order (gotta fill out that Basilisk company somehow...). I somehow doubt I am in a tiny, tiny minority, at least from the "vets" that play at the local gaming store I hang out at.

galahad67
12-10-2007, 00:17
I am somewhat of a vet in that I've been around for 12 years and have quite a few gw toy soldiers. about 18k in points for 5 diff 40k armies. since apoc has hit the scene I have bought about $1200 worth of minis from local game stores, gw direct and forgeworld.

about 2k in points.

If gw can keep the fun factor high I can see another $2k in minis being purchased from the same sources.

Orbital
12-10-2007, 00:20
I'd be curious to see in a poll of the "vets" that frequent this message board that asked the question "Will you be buying any of the new Apoc box sets and, if so, how many?"

I think that'd be really interesting, too (anyone want to do it?)... but don't make the mistake of thinking that it's an accurate study sample of the gaming world at large. Sometimes we at Warseer think that we speak for the gaming community as a whole when, in fact, we're really less than a sliver of it.

shakespear
12-10-2007, 00:29
Ive always heard that too Orbital. GW doesnt care about the vets because they dont spend money. New players spend waaaaaaaay more.

When 40k/fantasy has started up locally the shop always has to push something else after about a year and a half. People simply bought all they need.

One kid has been running the same BT list since Armegedon. That was the last time he bought anything GW.

Orbital
12-10-2007, 00:34
Ive always heard that too Orbital. GW doesnt care about the vets because they dont spend money. New players spend waaaaaaaay more.
I'm not saying so much that they don't care. I don't really have any idea if they do or don't. I think they do. I don't have any actual data to support it, though.

I was just trying to say that GW has to serve the greatest source of their profit. Vets aren't it. Like it or not, corporate strategy is a matter of "What have you done for me lately?" and, if you've got all your models and aren't going to be spending much more, GW is not going to be catering to you.

You can't really blame them. They got your money, you got your models/paints/rules. What do you owe each other beyond that?

Norsehawk
12-10-2007, 00:47
I have been playing and collecting (not so much playing lately but still buying and painting) stuff since the 80's I took this opportunity with the apoc stuff to expand several armies and have spent a good deal of money on buying apoc stuff.

as time goes on, the figures do tend to get better looking which is a great reason to buy more, for example, the old possessed vs the new ones. Also there are the new spawn vs the old spawn.

execution of all things
12-10-2007, 00:47
I consider myself a vet as well. Been playing off and on for 11 years. I still spend alot of money on GW stuff. And I can probably afford to spend alot more than the kids who jump in for 18 odd months. Since I got news of the new Chaos codex and Apocalypse I've built my loyalist marines up from 3,000-4,000 point range to near 6,000 and is still growing and have also started a deathguard army which is probably well over 3,000 points. I haven't bothered to total it up since a good bit is still under construction.

Apocalypse from what I've seen got veterans spending money again. Alot of it too because usually older age correlates to a larger income. Just because alot of us have big armies already doesn't mean we don't want to still add to them and Apocalypse made this much more viable since we can use all the models at once.

Orbital
12-10-2007, 00:54
You know, guys... I'm a vet. My friends are vets. The people I usually play with are vets. I have tons of models (more than I know what to do with) and have played probably a hundred games, if not more. I am not trying to downplay the role of vets in the community; only in the market. My point is:

- Vets (let's say with 5 years or more behind them), among 40k players, are not near critical mass, let alone the majority.
- Among vets, people who spend more than $20 a month are rare.

The gaming community is built on the efforts of vets. The market, however, is not. That's my point. When it comes to Apocalypse, its not about catering to vets.

Xenocidal Maniac
12-10-2007, 00:58
Yeah, Orbital, unfortunately all I've got is personal experience and anecdotes to go on, but, I'm a vet... been in this for over 12 years, and I spend exponentially more on GW products now than when I first started out, and it's simply a matter of my income getting larger as time goes on.

Man, I remember being a college student... GW would release something totally awesome like, a new codex or something, that I wanted so bad... and then I'd check my bank account, see that I had like $27.43 in there to last me for two weeks, and promptly forget about it.

Now that I'm 28 years old and make pretty decent money, know what I did when they released a new codex and new model line that I liked? Immediately went out and spent about $600 on a new army without batting an eyelash. Just like that! In the past 12 months alone I'd say I've spent anywhere from 2-3 thousand USD on GW products. Back when I was a teen or back in college, in any given year I'd spend maybe 3-400 tops.

Again, anecdotally, I'd say the older, employed vets around my LGS spend several orders of magnitude more than the teenagers who come around... simply because they have the money and don't need to beg mom / dad or get weekend jobs to support the addic - hobby.

So, I can't come up with any concrete numbers here, but my gut tells me you are wrong in your assumption. I actually think they are trying to cater to vets because those are who reliably and loyally spend the most money... from what I hear, and again, can't come up with numbers here, new player retention for GW is really low, and that's part of why they are in the mess they are in.

Lionsbane
12-10-2007, 01:04
lets see. New player spends $100 a month for 18months. thats $1800 for the average new player. A guesstimate, but probably a very high one. How many newbs have $1800 worth of minis by the time they quit.... 3-500 is probably more reasonable.

New player becomes a vet and spends $20 a month for 10 years, thats 2400. On top of that he probably spent the same as any other newbie in the first 18 months.

Which one makes more money for GW?

GW not catering to their Vets was/is hurting them. They realised this. Apoc is a great answer. It caters to the Vets, but also caters to the newbs. Newbs might not get into Apoc itself, but damn, picking up one of those big money saving sets as a newb has to look good. Its probably not an ideal answer, but its a very good start.


I'd heavily wager there are more Vets dropping large sums of money than newbs. I've been playing for nigh on 20 years now. I have 15k of Space Wolves, 6 or 7k of Imperial Guard (before Apoc), and a couple k each of Tau and Eldar. And i've dropped nearly $1000 on Apoc. That Imperial Guard Army, just became an Armored Regimental Combat Team. Two companies of Russ', a Company of Baneblades, A company of Arty, and a company of Infantry (armored fist). Ok really I'm still working on that last one, i hate assembling Cadians and wish we had the choice of Praetorians or something in plastic. Also I want an AA battery, but refuse to pay Forge World Prices for a vehicle based on the Chimera chassis.

Orbital
12-10-2007, 01:16
Thing is, it's not an assumption.

Vets are likely to have most of what they need already. Newbies don't. Vets don't spend much at GW. Newbies do. GW sells models. They target the part of the market that pays for more models.

I promise you that i don't have an investment in being right about this. I'm a vet, too. Who knows? Perhaps I'm wrong and GW is marketing the books to vets because they know vets are the ones who have the most models and, therefore, are most likely to be able to jump in and start playing right away. Or maybe they're trying to lure more vets into paying for the books because they bring more of that wild 2nd ed feel back to the game. I dunno. I do know when I look at a box with 3 tanks in it, I picture the average vet's shelf and I see those same three tanks already sitting there. When that vet looks in the Apoc rulebook and sees "You need 3 Monoliths/Demolishers/Wave Serpents/Whatever to do this special thing", he's not thinking "I gotta go buy some". He's thinking "I already have that!!"

BTW: You're right about new player retention being low. 18 months isn't long. It's miserably short. If that's the source of their losses, I wouldn't be surprised.

thewizardofoz
12-10-2007, 01:18
What a great way of GW to make some big money release a supplement that requires at least a 3000 point army.

what do other people think?

i think that people who keep posting this need to go fall in a ditch and shut up already.

apocalypse is geared towards vet who already have enough to outfit like 4 players, not the noob who is just starting. andif the noob wants to play, he can team up with one or two people and play as a team. simple.

it is not a mindless money venture. it is an expansion made for fun, based around vets. the big sets are just to make it more than a rulebook being released. and they are a great help for starting a normal army.

so stfu already all you apocalypse haters.

shakespear
12-10-2007, 01:19
All I have is personal experience as well. At my local shop I am the only vet that buys/sells/buys again multiple armies and I am smart enought to buy from Bartertown, eBay or the like.

Everyone else has been playing the same army often the same list, from when they started. Only about half of them have Fantasy, and they dont touch any specialist stuff.

mistformsquirrel
12-10-2007, 01:20
I think that'd be really interesting, too (anyone want to do it?)... but don't make the mistake of thinking that it's an accurate study sample of the gaming world at large. Sometimes we at Warseer think that we speak for the gaming community as a whole when, in fact, we're really less than a sliver of it.

There's a great quote by a moderator on a forum I still frequent -

"If you take the community at large as being tomato juice, the forum-goers are the tomato paste. Thicker, tangier, and altogether more pronounced in every way; they have stronger opinions, hold to them more tightly, and are among the most passionate for their hobby."

While that quote comes from the City of Heroes boards, the truth is it applies to most communities I think.

Forums tend to attract those of us who want more interaction than just building our figures and writing up our fluff alone, and maybe sharing it with a buddy or two. We want to talk to like-minded people in large quantities, to get ideas, feedback, and just to share our interest.

However, by our nature, we've got a narrower and more pointed perspective on things. I think thats why when controversies erupt on forums, they get so much more heated than a similar exchange would be via email with a friend, or just face to face in a shop or something.

An example would be the near-endless battle over female marines. Regardless of which side of that debate you are on, you obviously hold strong views on it, and very few people are willing to be swayed one way or the other, no matter how poignant the argument is made. Its also why few people seem able to adopt the "Live and let live" mentality with things. There's a degree of ourselves vested in what we do here; and because of that, we tend to think other people aught to look at things the same way.

Thus arguments like this over Apocalypse, which in reality could easily be solved by simply saying "ok, if you don't like it, don't play/if you do like it, don't pester me with it", instead turn into forum combat; because people get the notion that they 'own' a piece of the hobby.

Look for instance, at the statements of "This is what GW *should* be working on!" or "This is exactly what everyone has always wanted!" - Neither opinion really quite makes sense, yet its very easy to see where they come from when you take the perspective that people here are very very passionate about their hobby, and want it to be 'their way'.

Orbital
12-10-2007, 01:27
lets see. New player spends $100 a month for 18months. thats $1800 for the average new player. A guesstimate, but probably a very high one. How many newbs have $1800 worth of minis by the time they quit.... 3-500 is probably more reasonable.

New player becomes a vet and spends $20 a month for 10 years, thats 2400. On top of that he probably spent the same as any other newbie in the first 18 months.

Which one makes more money for GW?

Your math is wrong because you're completely missing out on the timeline here.

The vets that exist today? They've already paid GW their money and gotten their product. Those newbies? Not so. When Apoc hits the shelves, those who have the models won't need to buy new ones to play (they might do it anyhow, but they don't need to). The newbies have to get more models to get up to Apoc level. You're making it sound like an either-or situation. Those vets... their money is already spent. And that trickling in of cash they do? They'll keep doing it regardless. The newbies? They haven't spent their cash yet.

You think GW is going to say "Well, the vets have spent the bulk of their money already. We don't have to go after newbs. We have enough money now"?


I'd heavily wager there are more Vets dropping large sums of money than newbs. I've been playing for nigh on 20 years now. I have 15k of Space Wolves, 6 or 7k of Imperial Guard (before Apoc), and a couple k each of Tau and Eldar. And i've dropped nearly $1000 on Apoc. That Imperial Guard Army, just became an Armored Regimental Combat Team. Two companies of Russ', a Company of Baneblades, A company of Arty, and a company of Infantry (armored fist). Ok really I'm still working on that last one, i hate assembling Cadians and wish we had the choice of Praetorians or something in plastic. Also I want an AA battery, but refuse to pay Forge World Prices for a vehicle based on the Chimera chassis.

You guys are great guys, great players, great vets, great painters, even great friends... but crappy statisticians.

"You must be wrong, because I do x, y, z..."

Just because 6 or 7 people in this thread say that doesn't mean the facts are wrong. Warseer is NOT an accurate study sample... and 6 or 7 vets doesn't even amount to a decent study sample of Warseer regulars.

Guys, I love Apocalypse. I'm gonna play it. I think about it way more than I should. It's been getting me excited about playing the game again. I'm enamored with the system and my brain works double-time trying to come up with scenarios I can do with my friends. But I'm not buying anything. Why? I already have 10,000 points of Eldar. That's because I'm a vet. I've already got a huge army ready to go. If I add anything, it'll be one or two models at most. And I know a lot of vets who have a much more stocked-up hobby shelf than I do. So you wanna rely on anecdotes? I could get 10 guys into this thread who will tell you that they are vets and they're buying NOTHING for the Apoc release. And then we'd be "tied". Which is just silly. That's why I rely on the information I got from the GW managers about the clientele breakdown instead of how many vets I can count on my fingers.

Xenocidal Maniac
12-10-2007, 01:39
Mistformsquirrel - very well put, and I think you are absolutely right. Just by virtue of the fact that we are posting anything at all, we are more passionate than most about this stuff, and our opinions will be skewed accordingly. Good point.

Orbital, you are just kind of being obstinate and repeating yourself a lot at this point, and I think your more interested in iterating your point over and over again than engaging in any kind of real debate. I'm open to your ideas, but so far you're not doing a lot to convince anyone of anything, and you keep holding everyone else these statistical sampling and sourcing standards that you yourself seem to be exempt from... not sure what else to say to you, so, I am just gonna leave it alone. But I think you're a good guy and you seem intelligent enough, so, no harm no foul.

I think vets spend far and away more than noobs do, on the whole, and on average, and I've provided at least some anecdotal evidence to support my point. I could be wrong. But that's what I believe based on what I've seen and what I know. And that's that.

Long live Apoc! Long live GW! Let's all have a great time pushing around our toy soldiers!

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-10-2007, 01:39
i think that people who keep posting this need to go fall in a ditch and shut up already.

apocalypse is geared towards vet who already have enough to outfit like 4 players, not the noob who is just starting. andif the noob wants to play, he can team up with one or two people and play as a team. simple.

it is not a mindless money venture. it is an expansion made for fun, based around vets. the big sets are just to make it more than a rulebook being released. and they are a great help for starting a normal army.

so stfu already all you apocalypse haters.

Ah crap. *fire extinguisher WHOOOSH*

Did you for one second suppose that the poster and several others who responded have since implied that there could be a compromise here? Say, GW is trying to do this for fun reasons, but are also worried about making money? It's not a one or the other situation. If you'd read the preceding posts instead of jumping to reply, you might not have posted in the highly offensive and hyperaggressive fashion that you did. But no. Refusing to listen to what others had to say, you posted a bunch of anger and angst. Or if you did read the thread, you didn't do it carefully.

And what the hell is up with these forums lately? I mean, I've seen relative peace here since I joined, and now a couple of threads in particular, people are insulting each other, trolling, and ignoring the valid arguments of the opposing party left and right. Seriously. Not cool. Quit *********** up a perfectly good forum.

Orbital
12-10-2007, 01:49
Orbital, you are just kind of being obstinate and repeating yourself a lot at this point, and I think your more interested in iterating your point over and over again than engaging in any kind of real debate. I'm open to your ideas, but so far you're not doing a lot to convince anyone of anything, and you keep holding everyone else these statistical sampling and sourcing standards that you yourself seem to be exempt from... not sure what else to say to you, so, I am just gonna leave it alone. But I think you're a good guy and you seem intelligent enough, so, no harm no foul.

You're right: I'm being repetitive. I'll stop with that.

I do feel as if there's a lot of information being put forward in this thread which has no basis in factual data (Vets spend more per month than newbs, etc). Just conjecture and anecdotes, which aren't even remotely indicative of facts, and it's as if we're supposed to say "Oh, ok. You and three of your vet buddies spent $1000 last month, so I guess that data from head office must be wrong". But... my points have been made, understood, and so on. So I'll stop here.

I'm with you on this thought: Yay for Apocalypse! Kudos to GW for this outstanding piece of work! I'm a believer!

Orbital
12-10-2007, 01:49
i think that people who keep posting this need to go fall in a ditch and shut up already.

You, sir, are a balognahead.

mistformsquirrel
12-10-2007, 01:51
You, sir, are a balognahead.

*imagines a pack of lungeon meat atop a human body* <o.@>;

Mutant! HERESY! >.<;;

Orbital
12-10-2007, 02:00
All I have is personal experience as well. At my local shop I am the only vet that buys/sells/buys again multiple armies and I am smart enought to buy from Bartertown, eBay or the like.
A lot of vets do that. GW knows this. It's more money that won't hit their tills. Newbs are not yet savvy enough to go behind GW's back to get product.*


*Xenocidal Maniac: Don't kill me. I had to point this out. I swear I'll stop now.

ChaosMaster
12-10-2007, 02:03
Vets don't spend much at GW. Newbies do.
I have heard this theory before, but never found it to be true. Most of the people I see spending "real" amounts of money year after year in GW are people who don't "need" models, they just like buying, building and painting more, LOTS more, and those people are nearly all Vets, myself included.

Rogue 7
12-10-2007, 02:05
I guess I'm technically a rookie- I've been in the hobby for nigh on a year and a half, and I've got about 750 points of Tau. I never had a job during school, and all of my money went to food and the occasional paint. I bought a Devilfish with an Amazon.com gift card I got for doing an internship thingy. I've honestly never played a game, barring a proxy war with my brother on my bedroom floor- my LOTR models serving as IG, with books for Tanks, Gondorians for infantrymen, and cavalry for heavy weapons. I'm at college now, and I just cashed a paycheck into my bank account. Tonight, I go on the US online store website, debating whether or not to buy something, but probably not. Then I see the armored interdiction force- three tanks for essentially the price of two. I can't turn that down, and ordered it. I've met a few other 40K players up here, but no one else has an army with them. Without that deal, I wouldn't have bought anything. So Apocalypse, which caused GW to put out this deal, is a great thing for me- I got 3 Hammerheads, a skyray sprue, and the SMS for my Devilfishes for $90, when I can barely afford it and haven't bought anything in months. Apocalypse *does* offer some good deals for new people.

thewizardofoz
12-10-2007, 02:07
Ah crap. *fire extinguisher WHOOOSH*

Did you for one second suppose that the poster and several others who responded have since implied that there could be a compromise here? Say, GW is trying to do this for fun reasons, but are also worried about making money? It's not a one or the other situation. If you'd read the preceding posts instead of jumping to reply, you might not have posted in the highly offensive and hyperaggressive fashion that you did. But no. Refusing to listen to what others had to say, you posted a bunch of anger and angst. Or if you did read the thread, you didn't do it carefully.

And what the hell is up with these forums lately? I mean, I've seen relative peace here since I joined, and now a couple of threads in particular, people are insulting each other, trolling, and ignoring the valid arguments of the opposing party left and right. Seriously. Not cool. Quit *********** up a perfectly good forum.


well when there are 502 posts of the same thing i get kinda impatient and just skip it.

AND this topic has been brought up umpteen times, and is an eysore when i see three of them on the first page (that wasnt the case this time but still).

it is getting annoying, which is why i usually dont go in 40k gen. same crap over and over, like the search function doesn't exist.

and im not a bologna head, i hate bologna :).

but yes, old topic, no new answers.

Orbital
12-10-2007, 02:10
and im not a bologna head, i hate bologna :).

No, you're not... but I didn't use the word I wanted to use because I've already been banned once this year.

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-10-2007, 02:12
Well, I find it unfortunate that it's annoying you. However, that's no reason to tell people to fall into a ditch, shut the **** up, etc. I hate to get hot under the collar about this, but I find all the air-singing with insults highly annoying. So you see we're both annoyed here.

But I'll let it die if you will.

EDIT: You probably should too Orbit. :P

Orbital
12-10-2007, 02:14
EDIT: You probably should too Orbit. :P

I'm working on it! Honest!!!

Cry of the Wind
12-10-2007, 02:27
<All of mistformsquirrel's post #165>

I just clicked this page now out of boredom since I'd been avoiding it because I expected it to be full of bickering of one kind or another. I was pleasantly surprised to see this post here (and a couple others too, but mostly this one). I think it's something all forum goers should think about before posting certain things.

As for the original topic. I don't really care about Apoc being a simple money grabbing plot or a gift to veterans, or even both at the same time. I'm just happy it now exists and if it makes GW a bit of money that they can use to help support the game with cooler new product while making the bean counters happy, that's fine by me.

Orbital
12-10-2007, 02:39
I think a lot of us are feeling the same way about Apocalypse: Yeah, it's an attempt by GW to make huge amounts of money... but we don't mind because it's a quality product and are happy to pay for it. If Apoc wasn't good for the gamer and was only meant to sell droves of models, we'd get our pitch forks and torches... but it looks like this is the real thing and 40k hobbyists have never minded paying for something so long as it packs lots of gaming greatness into the package.

alexh
12-10-2007, 08:17
Why can't we all just agree to disagree and stop all this arguing and insult hurling. Just think, in less than 15 hours time, we can sort our differences by hurling 10" templates at each other. Let the fun commence.

RexTalon
12-10-2007, 16:14
well when there are 502 posts of the same thing i get kinda impatient and just skip it.

AND this topic has been brought up umpteen times, and is an eysore when i see three of them on the first page (that wasnt the case this time but still).

it is getting annoying, which is why i usually dont go in 40k gen. same crap over and over, like the search function doesn't exist.

and im not a bologna head, i hate bologna :).

but yes, old topic, no new answers.
And yet, you still feel compelled to post in a thread you hate. wierd...

(Actually I feel the same way. I hate this topic. I'm just pointing out the irony.)

Durath
12-10-2007, 16:53
This is one of those great examples of how someone says something as if it's fact and it sounds like it must be one, but it really isn't. Durath has no actual data to support this. It's just pulled out of thin air because he wants to support a point that doesn't have other
supporting evidence.

:wtf:

I have played 40k for 13-14 years. I started playing right as SECOND edition debuted. I have at least $3000 in two complete armies. One of my armies is well over 11,000 points, the other is about 3,000 points.

All these facts indicate I am a "vet" by most people's standards. I know lots of people who ARE vets in my local area.

All of them agree that this expansion is aimed towards them. Why? Lets take a look at your next quote...


What I know from facts presented to Games Workshop manages in the country where I live is that "Veterans" (meaning long-timers of 5 years or more) spend, on average, $20 a month at most at Games Workshop retail stores or via mail order. This is information that was given from head office to managers. It's not something I just made up.

Furthermore, the average customer (meaning the majority of their clientele by a factor of 75% or more) stay in the hobby for 18 months and then move on.

So by your own definition, I am vet. And I say that this expansion caters to vets, because I can field my 11,000 point army, and even add to it. Its really quite simple.


Vets, of course, aren't going to always have the precise combination of Leman Russes or Falcons to take advantage of the Apocalypse rules, but they're 100x more likely to have those things than the 18-monthers who are spending like crazy for a short period of time. Eldar Vets will, by now, have an Autarch on a bike. Marine vets, by now, will have a few Land Raiders. These are also the ones who will have the Revenant, Scorpion, Nightwing, etc.

Saying that Apoc is to vets as roads are to cars is incorrect. Saying that Apoc is to vets as toll booths are to someone who doesn't have to make the journey is a lot more like it.

No, its a perfect analogy. Before apoc, we had no rhyme or reason to have 3 Monoliths, or 12 Leman Russes, or 100 Space Marines. There just wasn't any benefit to it in a game sense. Now there is. Now we can collect even more stuff, and it MEAN something in the game. It gives us a path to take.

If you can't see this, then you are blinded by your own argument.

Orbital
12-10-2007, 17:17
:If you can't see this, then you are blinded by your own argument.

GW has to sell stuff, and vets just don't spend that much money because they already have the models. GW doesn't gear products and releases to segments of the market that won't spend much money.

Durath
12-10-2007, 17:28
GW has to sell stuff, and vets just don't spend that much money because they already have the models. GW doesn't gear products and releases to segments of the market that won't spend much money.

Cmon man. Look at what you are saying.

You realize that one Titan is 280.00 right?

And here's a hint... you aren't limited to just ONE Titan in a Apoc game...

Its rare that even vets have EVERY model in the GW/FW range. Apoc gives you incentive to buy more models to field a huge force.

Stop thinking in a limited sense. I bought a Baneblade. I play Chaos. Why? Because I can bring some Renegade IG to an Apoc game...

Orbital
12-10-2007, 18:10
Cmon man. Look at what you are saying.

You realize that one Titan is 280.00 right?

And here's a hint... you aren't limited to just ONE Titan in a Apoc game...

Its rare that even vets have EVERY model in the GW/FW range. Apoc gives you incentive to buy more models to field a huge force.

Stop thinking in a limited sense. I bought a Baneblade. I play Chaos. Why? Because I can bring some Renegade IG to an Apoc game...

People are getting sick of me saying the same thing over and over, so I'll try to say it in bite-sized capsule form.

GW wants to make some money from Apocalypse, which is released very, very soon. They'll make money from selling the book and from selling lots of models (as Apoc requires a lot of models).

Generally speaking: Vets will buy the book, but spend considerably less on models than newbs. Why? Because between the vets and the newbs, it's more likely to be the vets who already have the 280.00 Titan. Newbs don't have that stuff yet, and they've yet to spend that bomb of cash on GW... but they might.

I'm basing this on national sales data. I'm open to being wrong about it, but not because someone says "Me and my vet friends spend lots of money, therefore that means all vets spend lots of money".

Honestly, though: Do we care who Apocalypse is marketed to? If you're a vet, you get to rock out with models you already have and maybe add a few more if you get the inclination. If you're a newb, you get to dive in headlong and get all sorts of new awesomeness to paint and play for the first time. Seriously... the issue of who Apoc is "meant" for is almost completely inconsequential if we're all rocking out while playing it, right?

sebster
12-10-2007, 18:14
well, since we are using car analogies...
think of it this way.
not every dissenter here is someone who can't afford the newer model, some of us are dissenters because it's a bad idea.
now insted of mazda lets replace it with owning a VW bug type car and a ferrari type car.
the bug is useful in any situation, tons of support.
now the ferrari, it's pretty and it's the holy grail of cars, but depending where you live you have to be a complete and total sucker to buy one. they are ideal for medium and highspeeds, but suck at low speeds making it only usable in very few places on the planet that are not race courses.
if my bug is waiting for support for some time and insted of providing the much needed support my car dealership sudenly stocks up on ferraris, with the line "it's ok, your bug is still good!" :wtf: i'd be livid...

much the same how often do you think you'll see apocalypse games?
insted of releasing this suplement, they could've have released another codex in there, and help out armies that have been waiting for new codexes and figures for some time.

So, people shouldn't sell Ferraris because you don't want one.

There's a lot of interesting and considered thoughts in this thread. There's also two opposing thoughts guilty of the same logical fallacy.

"Apocalypse is a waste of time and GW should never have done it/are only doing it to rip off more customers. I know this because I don't want to play."
"Apocalypse is the best thing GW have done and its long overdue and will bring the company out of its rut. I know this because I want to play Apocalypse."

In both cases people are judging not just the quality of a release but also its market appeal on their own preferences alone. You aren't the world.

xAlpha
12-10-2007, 18:21
I love these threads.

DAMN YOU GW! How dare you release an optional supplement I don't even have to play at all! You're just greedy!

Durath
12-10-2007, 18:47
People are getting sick of me saying the same thing over and over, so I'll try to say it in bite-sized capsule form.

GW wants to make some money from Apocalypse, which is released very, very soon. They'll make money from selling the book and from selling lots of models (as Apoc requires a lot of models).

Generally speaking: Vets will buy the book, but spend considerably less on models than newbs. Why? Because between the vets and the newbs, it's more likely to be the vets who already have the 280.00 Titan. Newbs don't have that stuff yet, and they've yet to spend that bomb of cash on GW... but they might.

I'm basing this on national sales data. I'm open to being wrong about it, but not because someone says "Me and my vet friends spend lots of money, therefore that means all vets spend lots of money".

Honestly, though: Do we care who Apocalypse is marketed to? If you're a vet, you get to rock out with models you already have and maybe add a few more if you get the inclination. If you're a newb, you get to dive in headlong and get all sorts of new awesomeness to paint and play for the first time. Seriously... the issue of who Apoc is "meant" for is almost completely inconsequential if we're all rocking out while playing it, right?

:rolleyes:

Except you are totally ignoring the fact that before Apoc, there was no reason for a veteran player to continue to collect models, apart from the reasons I listed in my post above: Their tourney armies were invalid, or they just collected them to collect them.

Newbs had plenty of reasons to buy models, because they didn't have any.

Vets didn't. Now they do. Do you understand now?

And P.S.... if you are basing your comments on National Sales, then you might want to go back and review these sales figures. GW sales have been very poor, and in need of a boost. If Apoc gives them this boost, then all your deduction based on these figures is invalid (my projected outcome).

Orbital
12-10-2007, 18:54
:rolleyes:

Except you are totally ignoring the fact that before Apoc, there was no reason for a veteran player to continue to collect models, apart from the reasons I listed in my post above: Their tourney armies were invalid, or they just collected them to collect them.

Newbs had plenty of reasons to buy models, because they didn't have any.

Vets didn't. Now they do. Do you understand now?

And P.S.... if you are basing your comments on National Sales, then you might want to go back and review these sales figures. GW sales have been very poor, and in need of a boost. If Apoc gives them this boost, then all your deduction based on these figures is invalid (my projected outcome).

Yeah, okay.

Apocalypse FTW!