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Ktotwf
29-09-2007, 22:56
I think this applies both for the Dark Eldar in 40k, and the Dark Elves of Fantasy, (for the sake of convenience I will refer to them both as DE from now on)

DE freak me out. Chaos may want to kill you, the Tyranids eat you, and the Necrons enslave you, but the pure sadism with which the DE act is pretty freaky to me.

In my mind, being torured before certain death is inherently demeaning and, in my mind, is much scarier than even the most painful death imaginable.

The DE don't just do it, they do it well, and they enjoy it.

Sometimes, it is political necessity to kill - that is a sad but true aspect of nature. But I don't think it is ever necessary (outside of maybe Dick CHeney's mind) to torture and inflict pain on someone.

Anyway, thats just my Dark Eldar rant. They are the scariest, most f'ed up, and evil race in 40k, bar none.

mistformsquirrel
29-09-2007, 23:00
Well, I think you've got the right idea, but aren't being *quite* broad enough.

Back up a bit.

Why are the Dark Eldar like that? Because they are those responsible for the birth of Slaanesh! <O.O>; Now how scary and effed up do you have to be to *CREATE* Slaanesh?

What I mean by backing up though, is that in the grand scheme, I'd say anyone deeply involved with Slaanesh, willingly or otherwise, is going to be cruel and effed up; and enjoy it. Because they want to.

Look at the Emperor's Children for instance. I believe I read somewhere that during the Heresy, they boiled people down for drugs. Boiled people down. To get high. >.<;

...

So yes, Slaanesh is totally screwed up, and Dark Eldar are especially. And thats what makes them great <,<

(What? It's much more satisfying to put holes in evil critters imho.)

Chilltouch
29-09-2007, 23:01
Chaos will either kill you or take you as a sacrificel.
Tyranids will kill you and throw your corpse into a digestive vat.
Eldar will kill you, plain and simply.
Imperium will kill you, plain and simply.
Orks will kill you, plain and simply.
Necrons will kill you, plain and simply.
Dark Eldar don't kill you. They snatch you up, bundle you up with five dozen others into some neural torture device, then transport you to a nearby outpost where the real fun begins.

... I'd say at first sight, Dark Eldar would be the worst by far.

GodofWarTx
30-09-2007, 03:35
To me, Necrons and Tyranids are the most evil.

Why Tyranids?

Because the hive mind has absolutely no concern for any other life-form in the universe. Everything to it is a food source, so everything is just merely a means to further its own self, regardless of cost. Even bare minerals and air are not beyond consumption. THe hive-mind is perfectly capable of surviving without expansion.....but it does so. Everything that it encounters it sucks the essence out of it, and creates its own parodies of, like eldar psykic mastery, ork hardiness, and space marine toughness. That is gluttony,selfishness, and greed on an almost inconcievable scale. *that* is evil to me =)

Monospot
30-09-2007, 03:47
The 'nids are not evil. They are just the epitome of "survival of the fittest". They are a Darwinian powerhouse. It is their fault that humans and tau and eldar genes are soft and tasty and good with ketchup?

The Tyranids make the ultimate army for the former Zoology/evolutionary bio majors amoung us.

That being said, I think the Necrons outrank the Dark Eldar in evil quotient. Inside every Dark Eldar is a scared little Eldar soul trying to prolong their life to avoid being messily devoured by the god their race spawned. Basically, they are a Cure song waiting to be written...thats not evil, just kinda gothtastic.

Drogmir
30-09-2007, 04:23
well the most horrible is either Necrons or DE

Necrons enslave you and then gives your soul to a giant soul sucking Star God.
That's pretty horrible.

Khaine's Messenger
30-09-2007, 04:54
They are the scariest, most f'ed up, and evil race in 40k, bar none.

The thing is, one can argue that they do what they do for a reason, horrible and selfish though it is. Most of their pain and blood-rites are clouded in their attempts to "appease" She Who Thirsts so that Slaanesh will just leave them alone. This has morphed over whatever passes for time in the webway into an entire culture that has only one lingering doubt about their own superiority...the sucking feeling on their souls. While it's hard to sympathize with them when a variety of other solutions to the post-Fall Eldar predicament have been proposed, they really just don't see those options as viable...and to a lesser or greater extent, those methods would be like an admission of failure, especially since many of the Dark Eldar descend from the immediately pre-Fall Eldar.

Dark Elves are a tad different, since as far as I know they aren't really suffering some sort of degenerative soul-sucking problem, just a feeling of jealousy and hatred a mile wide for being kicked out of paradise and rejected by their High Elf brethren. They've taken worship of Khaine to its self-destructive extreme, and there are still plenty of Slaanesh worshipers roaming about.

The slave-taking and sadism is pretty constant, though. They're both cases of Haughty Elves taken to the negative extreme; neither really figured out what they were doing wrong to begin with, and everything they've done since is a stop gap or a snide slap of revenge. With respect to being "evil"...well yeah. Most evil? In a clinical sense, yes; they're one of the only civilizations that can prolong your suffering past the brink of insanity without having to actually use "magic." However, they're really not alone at the bottom of the Pit. Of course, then you get into "given values of evil" and such....

Noserenda
30-09-2007, 05:21
Meh says I, humans have thought of worse things for less reason.

Hostilius
30-09-2007, 06:08
Dark Eldars and Elves may just torture and then kill you, over the span of a week? a month? Certainly not more than three months.

But Chaos kill you (in case of Nurgle and Slaanesh, you will be tortured first by contagion or torture device) then your soul will be further tortured by their patron daemons for thousands of years! Now that is wayyy worst than being just consumed by Tyranids or torture and kill by DE.

Kandarin
30-09-2007, 06:16
Dark Eldars and Elves may just torture and then kill you, over the span of a week? a month? Certainly not more than three months.

But Chaos kill you (in case of Nurgle and Slaanesh, you will be tortured first by contagion or torture device) then your soul will be further tortured by their patron daemons for thousands of years! Now that is wayyy worst than being just consumed by Tyranids or torture and kill by DE.

I believe there are some fluff sources that say that the Dark Eldar will take that long too if they find it amusing enough.

Green-is-best
30-09-2007, 06:31
Meh says I, humans have thought of worse things for less reason.

Gotta agree with that. Penitent Engines and Arco-Flagellants are pretty creepy to me.

DantesInferno
30-09-2007, 06:39
Dark Eldars and Elves may just torture and then kill you, over the span of a week? a month? Certainly not more than three months.

The Dark Eldar are very good at keeping you alive if they want to torture you. There was a story in WD about a human governor who executed a Craftworld delegation. The Craftworld retaliated, and captured the governor. They then gave him to the Harlequins, who passed him over to the Dark Eldar. He's still apparently alive, over a thousand years later...

Tehkonrad
30-09-2007, 07:26
IN constant never-ending pain

Ktotwf
30-09-2007, 07:28
Sucks to be him I guess.

stormblade
30-09-2007, 08:15
The Dark Eldar are very good at keeping you alive if they want to torture you. There was a story in WD about a human governor who executed a Craftworld delegation. The Craftworld retaliated, and captured the governor. They then gave him to the Harlequins, who passed him over to the Dark Eldar. He's still apparently alive, over a thousand years later...

- That's odd, I haven't thought that Eldar send delegations.

On the topic- yeah the Dark Eldar seem to be most vile of creatures.

Tehkonrad
30-09-2007, 10:24
well the eldar and dark eldar aren't always at war

Chilltouch
30-09-2007, 10:41
The Chaos Gods don't really torture human souls - they instantly dissolve into various energies as soon as they hit the Warp. They can't feel anything at all as soon as they enter that symbiotic alternate reality.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the Craftworld Eldar and the Dark Eldar make pacts every now and again, in attempts to stop their conflicts for as long as possible. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if a Craftworld would doom another to eternity in the torture-towers of Commoragh in order to buy themselves out of the clutches of their dark kin.

Sure, Eldar may value Eldar, but they value their Craftworld over other Craftworlds and they would probably grudgingly sell out their friend to their foe to keep their own Craftworld going.
Then again, they might.
Who knows how Eldar work?

Progena
30-09-2007, 11:03
I see it like this. Torture and death aren't the worst fates imaginable. The enemies that can reach you after death are the worst.

1. If you fall while fighting Chaos where the walls between the two planes are weak, or you get sucked into the Warp entirely, you get devoured by Daemons or become the plaything of the Chaos Gods for all eternity (if you die under normal conditions then your soul just gets absorbed).
2. If you die by the hands of the Dark Eldar they put your soul in little bottles... or stuff like that, supposedly not a pleasant experience.
3. Necrons, yeah you might get muched, but that's at least the end of everything.

Chilltouch
30-09-2007, 11:08
From what I know, the Dark Eldar empower their souls with those of others, consuming them through various rituals in order to keep their spirit running. Without it, the Thirst would slowly drain them dry and leave their body behind as an empty husk while their soul is toyed with by She Who Thirsts. Such is the fate of all Eldar who lack the psychic charms and total discipline of the Craftworld Eldar and Exodites.

Orthodox
30-09-2007, 11:22
psychic vampires

Can everyone pretend just for a second that this isn't the livejournal? "metaphysical" doesn't have to be taken so prosaically. For a second, this isn't mana points, this is people/literature.

Maybe Dark Eldar "consumption" of souls through torture is actually about the effect that torturing has on their own souls. Engaging in such a destructively selfish act actually makes their souls more like slaanesh, and doing it deliberately allows them to retain identity, or metaphorically, for their souls to be coherent and not dissolve into the greater body of soul energy that is slaanesh.

The warp is a metaphor that's real. It doesn't mean you have to think about it in concrete terms.

Chilltouch
30-09-2007, 11:34
... Orthodox, that also works very well. An excellent concept!

Orthodox
30-09-2007, 12:20
It's worthless. It doesn't allow Will Points or Leadership tests. Those are what make a setting come alive.

Arcane_Blade
30-09-2007, 12:28
Necrons enslave you and then gives your soul to a giant soul sucking Star God.

I thought it'd be hard to enslave you (physically) when you've just been atomised/obliterated/whatever the damn term is.

And everyone seems to think so far that Chaos just kills you or sacrifices you. The Chaos Gods devour your bloody soul and they don't just step aside for the DE on the torture stage. I'm fairly sure they've caused excruciating pain and horror to innocent civilians and the like more than once before.

Chilltouch
30-09-2007, 12:31
Necrons don't enslave anyone. They exist to harvest life and kill everything. Everything.

Chaos Gods don't devour your soul. They devour the thoughtless energies that remains, except in rare cases where the barrier between reality and Warp is thin. In that case, your conscious is probably intact enough to feel the Daemons torturing your mind.

And when that happens, yes, Chaos is worse than Dark Eldar.

Sgt Biffo
30-09-2007, 12:51
There are no good guys in 40k, but DE sure take the cake for evil. No other race is as ruthless and sadistic.

Orks may be brutal, Imperium a xenophobic fascist state, Tyranids are just instinctive survival, Tau are expansionist...

...But DE don't just put thought into terrifying, subjugating and torturing whole populations- they consider it a form of artistic expression.:wtf:

Progena
30-09-2007, 13:30
Chaos Gods don't devour your soul. They devour the thoughtless energies that remains, except in rare cases where the barrier between reality and Warp is thin. In that case, your conscious is probably intact enough to feel the Daemons torturing your mind.

It's actually not so rare. To be able to summon Daemons onto the battlefield, the barrier must be weakened to the point where Daemons can force themselves into the material universe. And the forces of Chaos often field Daemons.

Chilltouch
30-09-2007, 13:50
The forces of Chaos often field Daemons on the tabletop.
I don't think they're that commonly used in the background, unless they're rather weak ones or they're purposely summoned and bound to the Material Plane.

Luthien
30-09-2007, 13:57
DE are the most terrifying, true but that doesnt equate to evil, they are doing what they need to do to survive why can't they enjoy it ;)

stormblade
30-09-2007, 14:27
DE are the most terrifying, true but that doesnt equate to evil, they are doing what they need to do to survive why can't they enjoy it ;)

- Well-no, other Eldar manage to survive without all that. This fact alone marks the DE as utterly selfish and evil.

IncubiLord
30-09-2007, 19:40
Maybe Dark Eldar "consumption" of souls through torture is actually about the effect that torturing has on their own souls.
Multiple problems there:
1) Torture is not needed for the DE to consume souls.
2) If the torture were the point, everybody would do it themselves instead of the Haemonculi being the torture-artists of the DE.
3) Torture and feeding don't even slow the Thirst, thus it must not be making the soul more coherent. In fact, the Thirst gets worse over time...

The Chaos Gods devour your bloody soul and they don't just step aside for the DE on the torture stage.
Most souls don't retain awareness after the death of their body, thus becoming just another chunk of dead meat (metaphysically) after you die. Who cares if the Chaos Gods devour remnants of your dead body when it won't hurt?

As far as torture goes:
The forces of Chaos dabble in torture. The DE make it a lifestyle.

DE are the most terrifying, true but that doesnt equate to evil
In this case, it does.
The DE do terrible things to you that are at least on par with what you'd expect from any other faction - but they've got no god demanding it, no noble cause behind it, nothing but "eating your soul is good for me and torturing you is just fun."

Compare this with Chaos, who have to kill you the 'right' way or risk angering a very-real god who may well turn them into a mindless pile of tentacles, and the DE have Chaos beat for being the most Evil.

Tyranids and Necrons are blind forces of nature. They kill indiscriminately - many of them without the mind to decide that what they're doing is good or evil. Meanwhile, Orks just like to fight (possibly need to fight simply to live) - killing is incidental. No competition comes from the amoral.

The Tau and the Imperium fight to protect their empires. Despite the radical extremes they go to, these two factions are each fighting for the preservation and possibly growth of their species - a noble cause. Sorry, guys, you're off the pure Evil checklist.

That leaves the CWE. Similar to the Tau and the Imperium, the CWE fight for the survival of their species. Unlike the other two, the CWE go to great lengths to divine which battles must be fought and avoid a lot of potential conflict. These guys don't qualify as Evil either.

Nobody's the good guy in 40K, but most of them have some means of redeeming themselves (yes, even Chaos - they're tragically at the mercy of their gods). DE don't.

GodofWarTx
01-10-2007, 03:21
The 'nids are not evil. They are just the epitome of "survival of the fittest". They are a Darwinian powerhouse. It is their fault that humans and tau and eldar genes are soft and tasty and good with ketchup?

The Tyranids make the ultimate army for the former Zoology/evolutionary bio majors amoung us.

That being said, I think the Necrons outrank the Dark Eldar in evil quotient. Inside every Dark Eldar is a scared little Eldar soul trying to prolong their life to avoid being messily devoured by the god their race spawned. Basically, they are a Cure song waiting to be written...thats not evil, just kinda gothtastic.

Your average biological entity works within an ecosystem, but the tyranids dont co-exist or assume symbotic balance with their give and take into the life cycle. Just because something is there, doesnt mean you have to take it as your own (such as the aformentioned human and tau DNA). Its the lack of recognition for anything else besides itself. Even animals respect each others territory sometimes for their own good. Isnt one definition of evil is to cause ruin in others for your own personal gain? As an intelligent being, the hive mind is aware of other races, shown through their interaction with genestealer magos. The tyranids just consume, and leave behind them lifeless husks. As a biology major, i would hope that such an organism would cause you some concern, haha! =)


The Dark Eldar seem the most sadistic and depraved, yes, but im not sure about most evil. They are CERTAINLY up there, but i dont think their souls are quite as corrupt or as forsaken as say, a former necrontyr, now soulless and embodied in a skeletal body, or someone like Erebus, Dark Apostle of the Word Bearers.

Shiakou
01-10-2007, 03:32
But it's possible the Hive Mind is only exterminating other species (technically, other worlds' species) to assure its survival; you let Humanity or Eldar live long enough and they may find ways to get to the Hive Mind itself. The Hive Mind is also the only sentient being in its species as far as we know. If you were the only human ever born and you had control over all the other animals on your world, who is there to teach you what is right or wrong? Why should you even know about such abstracts as morality, let alone believe in it when there's nobody to teach, punish, or reward you?

Ktotwf
01-10-2007, 04:10
Really good post Shiakou.

Orthodox
01-10-2007, 04:26
3) Torture and feeding don't even slow the Thirst, thus it must not be making the soul more coherent. In fact, the Thirst gets worse over time...
An eldar engaging in terror makes his soul more coherent and uniform. That's how he keeps from being subsumed by slaanesh, because his identity is stronger. Unfortunately, his soul is also starting to look more like slaanesh. He becomes more dependent on "feeding" activities.

Slaanesh was born because of so many eldar souls becoming lost in a morass of slaaneshiness. Each DE needs to maintain his own particular slaaneshiness, needs to become a mini-slaanesh, so that his soul isn't leached off into the homogeneity of the greater slaanesh body. It's like changing hue and losing contrast? That's why number three comes first.


1) Torture is not needed for the DE to consume souls.
2) If the torture were the point, everybody would do it themselves instead of the Haemonculi being the torture-artists of the DE.
psychic vampires, right. How does it work then? And what is torture for?

I think torture isn't a broad enough term. Soul eating is a cultural thing. I mean, you could drown your neighbors dog, that's not really torture.



The DE do terrible things to you that are at least on par with what you'd expect from any other faction - but they've got no god demanding it, no noble cause behind it, nothing but "eating your soul is good for me and torturing you is just fun."

Compare this with Chaos, who have to kill you the 'right' way or risk angering a very-real god who may well turn them into a mindless pile of tentacles, and the DE have Chaos beat for being the most Evil.
DE worship themselves. That's why they make up their own rituals. /Obvious


Nobody's the good guy in 40K, but most of them have some means of redeeming themselves (yes, even Chaos - they're tragically at the mercy of their gods). DE don't.
On the internet everyone is a junior objectivist, they should love DE.

IncubiLord
01-10-2007, 05:08
Each DE needs to maintain his own particular slaaneshiness, needs to become a mini-slaanesh, so that his soul isn't leached off into the homogeneity of the greater slaanesh body.
It's a fun idea, but it doen't work with the information given on the Thirst. Whether you're like the Great Enemy or not, she still leaches away at you.

Worse still, this idea runs contrary to the given nature of the Chaos Gods - the more you do something, the more you draw the affiliated god's attention.

psychic vampires, right.
Not as stereotypically simplistic as a two-word phrase makes them sound, but it's close enough.

How does it work then?
That's drifting a ways off-topic.
Check out these threads for discussion on how soul-eating works:
http://warseer.com/forums/40k-background/104788-what-makes-dark-eldar-thirsty.html
http://warseer.com/forums/40k-background/104788-what-makes-dark-eldar-thirsty.html

And what is torture for?
Nothing, according to many.
Torture makes a soul 'taste' better according to our fluff, and that's about it.

I have a theory that it also helps maintain a balance between pain and pleasure in DE communities, therefore avoiding "excess" - the domain of She Who Thirsts - but that's just another random idea that has no real grounding in established DE fluff.

DE worship themselves. That's why they make up their own rituals. /Obvious
Rituals probably went in the trash when the DE found out that their Pre-Fall ritualistic depravity created the Eldar Devil. Nobody wants to be confused for a Chaos-worshipper amongst a society of Chaos-haters. /Extra-Obvious

Tanith Ghost
01-10-2007, 10:35
The Dark Eldar strike me as evil. Iredeemably and inexcuseably so.
No other race does the heinous acts they do on a regular basis for no other reason than their own amusement. There's no BS rationalizing that one away.

destroyerlord
01-10-2007, 12:12
I'm pretty sure DE are about as evil as you can get. They get off over causing the maximum amount of pain and suffering to people as they can. Eldar that lived the same way they do created one of the gods of chaos, yet they still live their decadent existence, fully aware that they are fuel to slaaneshes' fire, even if they don't give their praise to him.

Alessander
01-10-2007, 19:52
The Dark Eldar codex flat outs says that the Dark Eldar are the archetypal evil race...

Ktotwf
01-10-2007, 20:33
Of course, the Dark Eldar are slightly worse than that, but it's a pretty similar principle - it's pretty hard to get worried about the suffering of sentient life of a "lesser" species.

Touche DI :p

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-10-2007, 21:08
Chaos will either kill you or take you as a sacrificel.
Tyranids will kill you and throw your corpse into a digestive vat.
Eldar will kill you, plain and simply.

More or less. Eldar will do it while calling you inferior... and also arrogant. :rolleyes:


Imperium will kill you, plain and simply.

Unless they're Dark Angels or Inquisitors. :)


Orks will kill you, plain and simply.
Necrons will kill you, plain and simply.
Dark Eldar don't kill you. They snatch you up, bundle you up with five dozen others into some neural torture device, then transport you to a nearby outpost where the real fun begins.

... I'd say at first sight, Dark Eldar would be the worst by far.

Yeah, more or less, DE win the evil contest. What do they win? :p


well the most horrible is either Necrons or DE

Necrons enslave you and then gives your soul to a giant soul sucking Star God.
That's pretty horrible.

No.

It is not a soul that is fed to the star gods. Think like this. What did the C'tan feed on before they met the Necrontyr?

Hint's in the name. Star Gods. They ate stars.

Well, a star is a conglameration of materials, mostly hydrogen and helium. Does it have a soul? As far as we've been able to tell in the 40k universe thus far, souls are the province of sentient beings. A star is not alive, as far as we know, thus it cannot be a sentient being, as far as we know. The star gods feed on energy, basically.

They call this essence, really. They suck out that which keeps you alive.

Also, in Abaddon's encounter with that daemon-seer creature, it describes the souls as being cast adrift on the Warp, for the daemons to feed on. Meaning not consumed.

Hate to be an *******, but the C'tan aren't fond of souls, or anything Warp based. Word is essence, essence. ;)

Ktotwf
02-10-2007, 00:33
What makes the Eldar evil is that they willfully inflict suffering where there need not be suffering, instead of killing to achieve aims (which, sadly, is often necessary)

I don't see Death = Suffering, especially because death can be quite quick and painless when it is necessary for it to be.

Heromaniac
03-10-2007, 17:01
40k and the killing:skull:

IG kills to defend themselves form everything else
SM kills to protect their chapter
WH kills because you are heretic to the word of the Emperor(Be He blessed)
DH kills deamon:wtf:
Tau kills those who oppose the Greater good
Orks kills accidentally(sometimes occurs after bashing on something:D)
Chaos kills for their Gods(whichever it is)
Eldar kills to protect their craftworld
DE kills to take your soul(after torturing you of course)
Nids kills to devour your DNA and adapt themselves(survival of the fittest)
Necrons kills to kill life(now that's evil:chrome:)

So TMHO Necrotyr are the most evil of all race. They've waited 60 millions years, they can wait a little longer to fulfill their plan of total extinction of life.

stormblade
03-10-2007, 17:15
Necrons kills to kill life(now that's evil:chrome:)

So TMHO Necrotyr are the most evil of all race. They've waited 60 millions years, they can wait a little longer to fulfill their plan of total extinction of life.

- Necrons kill because they are told to do so -there is no free will to it, they are automatons.

The other explanation would be that they kill to appease their gods- The C'tan which would make them better than Chaos because, unlike chaos, they just kill you without the torture and stuff in between.

either way I still think the DE are the most evil.

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-10-2007, 20:19
[COLOR="DarkRed"]
Necrons kills to kill life(now that's evil:chrome:)

So TMHO Necrotyr are the most evil of all race. They've waited 60 millions years, they can wait a little longer to fulfill their plan of total extinction of life.

They do not kill to kill life,they do it to appease their masters, who are hungry and think stars are bland. So if Nids aren't evil, 'Crons aren't either. Both forces are just hungry. For different things, yeah; different eating philosophies, yeah; different methods, yeah. But if I sit down to eat a stead with my bare hands, I don't give a flying fart to the moon about the dude next to me eating salad with a fork... Throw his rabbit-food-eating self on the fire too. :evilgrin:

See what I mean?

DE evil>Nid/Cron evil (hunger)

Tanith Ghost
05-10-2007, 02:36
And yet none of this excuses the dark eldar from the fact they torture their captives for no other reason than cheap kicks.

DantesInferno
05-10-2007, 02:59
And yet none of this excuses the dark eldar from the fact they torture their captives for no other reason than cheap kicks.

Well, some of the Dark Eldar torture their captives (the Haemonculi). The others like it (and even encourage it) because it makes the souls they consume tastier.

If you eat meat or eggs produced from factory farms, you may be able to see where I'm going with this.

Sure, the Dark Eldar may be evil. If so, does that make us evil too?

Daredhnu
06-10-2007, 10:15
yes dark eldar are the most evil race in the 40k universe and that's not just what i think, it says so in their codex.

now as for the subject of our killing of "food critters" yes it's brutal and it happens without any sedatives but just think of the costs of meat if all animals were killed in the most humane way possible everyone would complain even those people who were for the no pain treatment and there is also the fact that any medication might spoil the meat the whole reason they are raised and killed in the first place.

now i am offcourse pro treating these animals as good as possible while they are alive and i would also like for them to be killed as quickly and painlessly as possible but mishaps happen more often then they should sure but i'm also sure that it's a minority seeing as how it costs them money if it takes longer.

but killing animals to eat is not about the suffering. and with Dark Eldar it is the more suffering the better the taste and not just physical suffering but phycological suffering more than anything atleast that's how i see it.

anyway that's all been said before.

i would like to add though that i care more for animals then i do for people.
it sickens me to see how people treat animals sometimes and i don't consider those people deserving of live.

Chilltouch
06-10-2007, 10:36
The Eldar don't think of it as making their victims suffer. They think of it as having a bit of fun. Whether they're mauling sheep or torturing an entire nation and listening the symphony of screams, they don't think about what they are doing to the victims, they just think about what they are doing for themselves.

Sekhmet
07-10-2007, 05:27
First of all... I must say this is one of the best threads I've seen in Warseer.



Emotion in 40K is tied to psychic energy. That's how the Eldar brought about the Fall. Thus, a Pariah likely has no emotions, only animal instincts in a very capable brain. Pariahs are incapable of empathy, sympathy, and a great deal of other sensations humans take for granted.

Read the Eisenhorn series, the closest you can get to canon without being in a codex... just as, or maybe even more, canon compared to WD fluff articles. Alizabeth is one of the most emotional characters in ANY 40k novel.

Your argument is basically...
Eldar have large amounts of psychic energy.
Extremely high emotional excess -> Creation of Chaos God.
Therefore, you claim that extremely high emotions must be tied to psychic energy.
Then, you go in the opposite direction and say that because Pariahs have no psychic energy/soul, they cannot feel emotions.

Pseudo-mathematical / logical equation:
A is racial psychic level (high for Eldar), B is amount of emotions (high for Eldar).
C the number needed to form a chaos god.
Just because A + B > C (it works with A*B>C or any way you want to put it), that doesn't mean that in order for B to exist, you need A. Assuming such makes absolutely no logical sense.

Another explanation could be that when you have a great psychic potential, you broadcast your emotions over the warp further. If there is enough of this broadcasting going on, you may create a psychic god (or make an already-existing one very happy). If you have no psychic potential (pariah), you do not broadcast your emotions at all, but you still have them.


On to the next point... there's a quote.
"If you kill one, it's a tragedy... but if you kill one million, it's a statistic." - Joseph Stalin.

I think pretty much everyone here has fallen into that trap... or is it a trap? We see the deaths of maybe a couple hundred a day from the gladiatorial fights in Commorragh, with maybe a thousand or two, but probably no more than ten thousand, at any given time being tortured. There aren't a lot of Dark Eldar, and it takes time to torture and such.

You can then look at the C'tan. Since we know the most about the Deceiver, let's focus on him. All he cares about is consuming sentient beings... not because he needs them to survive, but because they taste better than stars. C'tan are not fighting for survival, but for luxuries. Even the Dark Eldar can claim they're fighting for their eternal souls. Then, the Deceiver goes around setting up worlds where he/she/it is their god, has them fight wars and such, just for fun. Like a human would mess with an ant farm. When the Deceiver gets bored, the race is either cleansed by Necrons or simply eaten up. The C'tan basically laid waste to the entire galaxy, enslaving or killing everyone. Entire planets at a time.

I'm sorry, but the Dark Eldar don't even know the concept of Evil when compared to the C'tan.

Shiakou
07-10-2007, 05:49
You know, after rereading this entire thread, the puzzle pieces are falling into place.

Warp Beings feed on our emotions and psychic energy.
C'tan feed on our "essence", the most popular explanation being the living energy in our bodies.
Tyranids feed on our flesh.
Orks are plants. I'm sure they find a way to use us as fertilizer.

Perhaps we, both human and Eldar, truly are the cows of the galaxy.

Torga_DW
07-10-2007, 06:01
Blood angels. They drink the blood of the civilian population they're meant to be protecting. Isn't that evil?

Shiakou
07-10-2007, 06:05
Blood angels. They drink the blood of the civilian population they're meant to be protecting. Isn't that evil?

They only drank a small amount. Maybe only one out of ten civilians. :D

Wintermute
07-10-2007, 08:23
I've deleted a large number of posts for being off-topic.

If I have to remove any more posts from this thread, I will close the it and take action against anyone who ignores this warning.

Wintermute
The WarSeer Inquisition

Cheesolith
07-10-2007, 10:03
Being "evil" is one of those things that you can never be sure of because everybody has a different concept of it. In the stereotypical sense of torturing, killing and conquering being the main evil points, then the necrons would win because they kill and conquer on a much larger scale then the DE can torture.

About the nids being evil for stealing other people's genes:
What if they were created by the Old Ones to combine the useful aspects of the othr races into one? They were spawned in another galaxy, to be safe from the C'tan as long as possible untill they were strong enough to take them on. Now they are sending hive fleets here to steal the pariah gene right from under their noses. When they got all the genetics they need, they may have a chance from fighting their ancient enemies. Actualy, that would be a good twist to the generic "aliens try to eat the world" background they have now.

Sgt Biffo
07-10-2007, 12:40
Whoa! Now thats what I call a purge!


Being "evil" is one of those things that you can never be sure of because everybody has a different concept of it.

First of all I love your name/handle.

Indeed this is the crux of some of the problems that we've had on this thread that have rightfully been deleted.

Malign selfishness is probably what makes them evil. They bully the weak and never pick a fair fight (fluff wise at least). They are aware of the pain and suffering they cause, but instead of questioning their actions (as the Craft World Eldar have) they revel in it with hedonistic abandon.

Whether or not one would personally see this as inherently evil may be up to personal preference, but you sure wouldn't want these guys as neighbors (unfortunately some of us do have cousins like them... or maybe I just empathizing with the Craft World Eldar too much:D)

knee high to a gnoblar
07-10-2007, 17:09
methinks it may well be humans *lots of gasps* what other race lobotomises their own? (look at some of the gothicy pics in your rule book ( and any 40k book for that matter)) gotta feel sorry for servitors.

Four20edLogan
07-10-2007, 17:21
I agree, Chaos will kill you and enjoy it, but not as much as the Dark Eldar would

Shiakou
07-10-2007, 23:59
About the nids being evil for stealing other people's genes:
What if they were created by the Old Ones to combine the useful aspects of the othr races into one? They were spawned in another galaxy, to be safe from the C'tan as long as possible untill they were strong enough to take them on. Now they are sending hive fleets here to steal the pariah gene right from under their noses. When they got all the genetics they need, they may have a chance from fighting their ancient enemies. Actualy, that would be a good twist to the generic "aliens try to eat the world" background they have now.

I like it. It would also be entirely believable that the Old Ones couldn't keep their created races straight if the Tyranids, Orks and Eldar can't keep from killing each other. One suspects that the Old Ones were evil or somewhat complacent in their engineering, if this is the state of their current "children".

On a somewhat unrelated note, I keep having this nagging feeling that several parts of my memory have been lost to oblivion. Oh well, I'm sure it's nothing important. :D

Cry of the Wind
08-10-2007, 01:53
Read the Eisenhorn series, the closest you can get to canon without being in a codex... just as, or maybe even more, canon compared to WD fluff articles.

One thing I must say here, saying Dan Abnett is that close to canon is something I wouldn't do (for reasons check this thread here (http://www.specialist-games.com/inquisitor/forum_b/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10427) ). They make some good points there (and though I'm still a fan of some of his stuff they show good reason why true canon he is not).



You can then look at the C'tan. Since we know the most about the Deceiver, let's focus on him. All he cares about is consuming sentient beings... not because he needs them to survive, but because they taste better than stars. C'tan are not fighting for survival, but for luxuries. Even the Dark Eldar can claim they're fighting for their eternal souls.

I'm sorry, but the Dark Eldar don't even know the concept of Evil when compared to the C'tan.


Now back on topic... This is one of the best descriptions as to why C'tan (and by extension the Necrons) are among the evilest creations in 40k background. I was originally going to side with the Dark Eldar being the evilest but your points there Sekhmet have done a very good job at convincing me of the evils of that ancient race.

Sgt Biffo
08-10-2007, 04:59
I don't see Death = Suffering, especially because death can be quite quick and painless when it is necessary for it to be.

You'd be speaking from experience here I take it...:rolleyes:


gotta feel sorry for servitors.

Most of them were comatose or brain damaged, some were mind wiped for security reasons (both theirs and humanities). Most of the time its inflicted on criminals. Kind of like execution mixed with hard labour if you will.


One suspects that the Old Ones were evil or somewhat complacent in their engineering, if this is the state of their current "children".

I think of it more as desperate. You don't get to run that many "crash tests" when your on the losing side of a war (though they did manage to turn things around in the end).

Lamhirh
08-10-2007, 09:21
This is one of the best descriptions as to why C'tan (and by extension the Necrons) are among the evilest creations in 40k background. I was originally going to side with the Dark Eldar being the evilest but your points there Sekhmet have done a very good job at convincing me of the evils of that ancient race.

Now there is no denying that DE are quite evil, but the C'tan take malice to a whole new level. There is simply no comparing the two, the DE are vastly inferior lifeforms who are mentally incapable of comprehending just how mean a C'tan really is. If you want official fluff that puts things in perspective, read the last chapter or so of 'Nightbringer'. Kaelis Ra eats plucky mortals for breakfast with torment sauce, because they are tasty. Not because he needs to eat them, unlike DE.

stormblade
08-10-2007, 09:28
. Not because he needs to eat them, unlike DE.
- They don't need to do it either.
Besides I do not think that a C'tan can actually perceive these beings as something that feels- Eldar know that humans feel and they enjoy hurting them(and everybody else for that matter)
:chrome:

Lamhirh
08-10-2007, 20:28
- They don't need to do it either.

Erm, yes they do to overcome Slaanesh's soul drain. If they don't consume souls they waste away, like those space vampires from that cheesy 'Lifeforce' movie. C'tan have access to a cosmic all-you-can-eat buffet consisting of billions of stars, yet they prefer to snack on mortals just for kicks. In 'Nightbringer' it describes how a C'tan revels in suffering and destruction to an extent that defies comprehension. It still stands: C'tan > DE

stormblade
08-10-2007, 20:48
Erm, yes they do to overcome Slaanesh's soul drain. If they don't consume souls they waste away, like those space vampires from that cheesy 'Lifeforce' movie.

- Well, their Craftworld, Exodite and Harlequin relatives manage just fine without that- the DE are just to decadent, selfish and foolish to change their ways.

And since C'tan defy comprehension altogether I really don't know how to possibly categorize them.

Chilltouch
08-10-2007, 21:39
Stormblade, that's because those ones have their own methods of supressing the Thirst. The Craftworld and Exodites have their dozens of psychic disciplines, dozens of special trinkets and their soulstones. Dark Eldar don't go with these because they can't stand such ridiculous constraints. I mean, imagine being trapped inside a stone without any sense whatsoever for eternity. Even we'd prefer eternal torture of every sense to that.

Shiakou
09-10-2007, 03:20
And since C'tan defy comprehension altogether I really don't know how to possibly categorize them.

They defy comprehension by being beyond human understanding; they're so evil that they've skipped over evil and gone entirely to a level only known to the C'tan themselves, and possible psychopathic clowns.


I mean, imagine being trapped inside a stone without any sense whatsoever for eternity. Even we'd prefer eternal torture of every sense to that.

Honestly, If my choices were between eternal torture and eternal sensory deprivation, I'd prefer the oblivion of true death.

Twisted Ferret
09-10-2007, 06:15
DE don't have to, though. Sure, the alternative may be unpleasant, but no doubt stars are unpleasantly bland and tasteless as well. DE don't have to torture those who feed them, either.

That said, C'tan are still more evil because of sheer scale imho. But nevertheless, the DE are close enough as to make little difference. :chrome:

Sgt Biffo
09-10-2007, 14:59
like those space vampires from that cheesy 'Lifeforce' movie.

Or the ones In Meta Barons.

Sci-fi needs more space vampires!!! I'm of to start a petition...:mad:

7thOffensive
09-10-2007, 15:23
If you define evil as the will to do harm.. than yeah the dark eldar win.

If you define it as a hate of all things and a singular purpose to wipe them out.....necrons.

Sgt Biffo
10-10-2007, 02:31
If you define it as a hate of all things and a singular purpose to wipe them out.....necrons.

Dunno at that. DE hate all things with a veiw to wiping them out including themselves.

Necrons just want to create a galaxy where the natural cycle of life and death has been perverted- thats just whacky with a side order of evil.

MuttMan
10-10-2007, 05:41
Dark Eldar are the epitome of evil but there is something they dont do that is more evil.

To be self serving, selfish, and cruel to an utmost degree is very evil, but what if your goal was to take a soul and torture it forever within the confines of the warp, and then use it to kill their former comrades?

What if you were given a choice when infected with a disease that was grueling and painful, telling you every moment could be your last, to join a god of decay that demands death of your former comrades.

What if, all you did all day was cut yourself in the name of your god, pissed at everything, just to be shackled or held in stasis until battle arrived, and go cut up everything that has a neck or can bleed until you die, without any worry of self preservation? (preserving your own life = the will of good)

These are but a few of the things dark eldar lack. Evil is in the eye of the beholder however, and the warp can be seen as elements or sides each with unique rules to abide by, while the dark eldar can be subject to their true nature and pitied.

Nobody can tell for sure, to each their own.

Sgt Biffo
10-10-2007, 07:46
Dark Eldar are the epitome of evil but there is something they dont do that is more evil.

To be self serving, selfish, and cruel to an utmost degree is very evil, but what if your goal was to take a soul and torture it forever within the confines of the warp, and then use it to kill their former comrades?

What if you were given a choice when infected with a disease that was grueling and painful, telling you every moment could be your last, to join a god of decay that demands death of your former comrades.

What if, all you did all day was cut yourself in the name of your god, pissed at everything, just to be shackled or held in stasis until battle arrived, and go cut up everything that has a neck or can bleed until you die, without any worry of self preservation? (preserving your own life = the will of good)

These are but a few of the things dark eldar lack. Evil is in the eye of the beholder however, and the warp can be seen as elements or sides each with unique rules to abide by, while the dark eldar can be subject to their true nature and pitied.

Nobody can tell for sure, to each their own.

To me at, least, Chaos don't do things with purpose. They have half baked plans that entertain them for a while then they get bored and turn to something else. This chaotic nature is what makes them so unorganized that they haven't annihilated the Imperium to date.

Their actions are disjointed and insane. There is a saying among criminal psychologists that is along the lines of "Is he (they in this case) mad or bad?"

Chaos is about being psychotic, paranoid (an lets face it all their subordinates are out to get them... and replace them), etc, with delusions of grandeur being a driving force behind most of the mortal actions= mad. DE know that what they are doing serves no higher purpose but do it just for kicks=bad.

Don't get me wrong, nut cases like Jeffery Dahmer, Ed Geen and John Wayne Gracie were vicious bastards! How they got away with it for so long was because they didn't wear al-foil hats to stop the mind control rays from satellites and run around the streets in their grandma's under wear preaching to passers by of the coming of the abyssal were-nematode Yg-Sekmathat, in all his tape-worm glory, who shall judge the unbelievers and consume the world.

Guys like Dahmer, Geen and Gracie knew what they were doing and knew it was wrong which is why they made their repulsive actions clandestine and solitary. They were crazy in the fact that they were incapable of empathizing with anything but they were sane enough to know that was considered abnormal, and so were able to fake it. (edit- I'm reminded of Cuu from the Gaunts Ghost books...)

Now; if they had been in a society that was entirely selfish, reveled in torture and sadism for its own sake, considered everything else it encountered as sub-human (know know what I mean) and was into cannibalism- they would have fitted in perfectly!

Ashnari Doomsong
10-10-2007, 12:41
Chaos is all-encompassing. That means that it's both good and bad at the same time. In fact, pretty much the only thing Chaos isn't is stable in its behaviour - a Tzeentch worshiper might toss you off a bridge down into Grand Canyon only to turn the ground below you into a pleasant plush bed of shock-pink kitten-fur to brace your fall, simply because he felt like it.

Where ever there is injustice, Tzeentch opposes it, and where there is love, it is nurtured by Slaanesh. Don't make the mistake of thinking they eat babies all the time - it's just that you never hear about all the nice things that Chaos does. They never, after all, last.

Imperialis_Dominatus
10-10-2007, 13:05
Mainly due to the fact that they nurture it in hopes of moving it towards the extremes that feed them and turn others to their will.

Ashnari Doomsong
10-10-2007, 13:21
Actually, they wouldn't want to turn others to their will. That would break the whole concept of Chaos by creating permanency, and worse *enforced* permanency. Their motives are utterly indecipherable and ever-changing. Their domains are, perhaps, reasonably permanent, but almost nothing else about them is - with the exception possibly being Nurgle.